UKH

I've only ever been a part time runner. Done a few marathons, a few half marathons and a 3 day event a few years back. Because I only train before an event I never invest the time into seeing how good those squidgy gels are. So, how much of a difference do they make compared to just refilling at a water station and scoffing gummy bears?

In reply to Derry:

try them and find out.

Got to see what works for you. Some people swear by water and gummy bears.

In reply to Derry:

I'm not a runner but occasionally use them cycling.....good results and definitely helpful when you are really starting to flag out. Some are a bit harsh on the tummy and some co.tain caffeine also....worth trying to see what suits you...

In reply to Derry:

Chia Charge - lemon are about the only ones that don't make me nauseous. Worth a try.

In reply to Derry:

I don't like them, make me feel sick. Best for me is Tailwind. Regular food and drink for longer stuff, like coke, roast potatoes, crisps, nuts, Jaffa cakes etc.

In reply to Derry:

For me, more effective than Dulcolax. For others they may work differently.

In reply to ClimberEd:

I really like them, they aren't magic and whatever you eat you can't digest more than about 200 calories per hour, so you will still bonk, it just delays it.  You will have to try them out and see how you get on, go for a long run, when you start flagging then take one and see what happens.

I use them on fell races of over about 30 minutes to make sure i've got some energy left for the finish, longer races mixed in with more normal food and as an emergency get me home boost if i'm on a training run and really flagging.  They are expensive unless you buy in bulk when you get an offer.

SIS ones work for me.  Lovely.

In reply to ablackett:

I can’t stomach them, just find them grim. I prefer clif shot bloks.

Im surprised that you use them over 30minutes. I thought your body had enough fuel for longer than that, but you are a infinitely more talented runner than me, so I’ll happily bow to your wisdom/knowledge. 
 

Edit: just to be clear andy b is a quality runner, I’m not being sarcastic In my above response

Used them for triathlons. About 12 of them for a half ironman, which is a great way of not wanting another one for a long time.

Some people can take gels with no problems, so find them disgusting and some need to run to the toilet... Try and see.

In reply to Derry:

Bloody awful, every single last one of them (i must have tried 10 different versions) hateful things.

In reply to Derry:

As a psychological boost as much as physical they are handy, but only ever used them sparingly during marathon distance and a couple of times before that (as a test that I could stomach them). Better to have one in your pocket than not....

Most recently used SiS and they are easy to down, and not too sweet unlike others previously used. Despite having a good stomach for these things, I would never take any pre-run energy/fruity bars though. Sat really high and gave me a stitch for the first hour or more.

In reply to Derry:

Well, they give you a good quick sugar boost. Texture is generally awful and a lot of water is required. For me, they work well for anything up to 3 hours. For anything longer, I take bars or real food. I find the salty variants easier to stomach. I also find that more consistent gels (Gu) for example work better in summer and more liquidy ones work better in winter, due to the effect temperature has on the texture. 

In reply to Derry:

Check out mountain fuel https://www.mountainfuel.co.uk/

Some great nutrition tips and also their stuff is actually very palatable - these gels dont upset my stomach at all and are really palatable. HAve used them in bike rides (100mile) and runs (up to 100km) . 

In reply to Derry:

I like the SIS ones, they are very thin and don't require water. Some others I've tried are very thick and cloying. Watch out for ones with caffeine. Even though you might drink a double express at home with no ill effect, some of the caffeine ones can have a laxative effect.

Weight for weight, flapjack contains more calories, but gels act faster. So perhaps take both on long runs.

In reply to Derry:

They work in 2 ways so be mindful that you may not actually need them. 
 

The first is that your brain will detect when your blood sugar level is dropping and start to protect itself by slowing you down. This happens well before it should if you’re not highly trained. If you then take something sugary, your tastebuds will tell the brain sugar is on its way and the brain will allow the body to pick up quickly. So this isn’t your body absorbing the gel, it’s your psychological response. If you can train your body to run hard when your brain is trying to slow you down then you’ll have an advantage there. 
 

However, it takes around 20mins to digest the gel so, if you are taking them, you need to take them early to stop the above happening. 
 

Work out how many calories you expend, the faster you run the closer you need to take them. If you’re a slow runner you may only need one every 40minutes. Forget the ‘take every 20mins’ or you’ll end up trying to take 12 of them on a 5 hour marathon. 
 

I find starting at mile 9 and then taking one every 5k seems to fit me. No point in taking one after 23 miles as you’ll be finished before the last one hits. 
 

A banana and two hot cross buns an hour before a half is more than enough for me and I won’t use gels.

In reply to ablackett:

Yeah. on my LD triathlons I start with a mix of bars and gels and drink, and then move to gels when I can't handle the solid food anymore.

Torq are my race gels of choice, but they ain't cheap.!

In reply to Derry:

Personally i noticed no difference  between  gels and mini pack of harbio. 

 Caloies were about the same  and the harbio were way  cheaper. 

Just  find what works for you.

In reply to Derry:

They are convenient, pre-measured and supposedly made to be digested ASAP. 

Personally, I struggle to keep up with 300kcal/hour intake for longer efforts (4-10 hours), so gels and shot blocks are a staple. I didn't get on well with dried fruit, bananas are not easy to carry and nuts don't appeal to me while running. 

In reply to Derry:

After trying quite a few mostly with horrible side effects.. I found Huma Gels. The UK distributer has stopped selling them, so now unfortunately your only option is Amazon. They contain chia seeds so, to me, feel a bit more like consuming 'food' rather than gloop. You can get a mixed box with both caffinated and non caffinated options. I tend to take a couple of each with me.

In reply to ablackett:

That's really interesting, never thought about it in those terms. So, (assuming 100 calories per mile), even doing a fairly steady 10 min/mile pace you'll still have a 400 calorie deficit per hour, regardless of how much you try and consume?

In reply to Uluru:

Oooo, they look quite good, are they just like a fruit smoothie texture ? One thing i struggle with is an awful aftertaste from gels

In reply to Derry:

I like untapped and Gu. Untapped is literally just maple syrup.

I don't think there are necessarily good and bad gels, just what works for us. They are just easily digestible.

There's also powdered drinks. On longer runs I take small sandwich bag portions and pour them in. I have tried tailwind but strangely seem to stomach gatorade better.

Yeah its about 50-60g of carb an hour your stomach can process, or 200 calories. So there's no point in over eating.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

There is some evidence that it is possible to train to consume more upto about 100g in cycling, depending on size. Marten gels are often cited for this.

I'm not sure how that translates to running, but I'm sure that intensity will have an impact. 

In reply to Ridge:

Don't forget you burn fat as well during exercise . The mix will depend on intensity and training.

In reply to Dave B:

I use them on long cycles, take one after the first hour then every 30 mins after that .. in the winter , if it’s cold, I go down to every 20 mins... can get expensive on a 5 hour ride!

In reply to Dave B:

It’s usual during an Iron Man to spend the time on the bike eating and drinking to fuel for the run. 

In reply to Dave B:

This.

With the right training you don’t need to eat so much. Clearly if you need a gel every 30 mins you’ve got your training badly wrong unless cycling wise you are riding at 25mph for 5 hours plus.

In reply to Dave B:

Yeah I've seen papers suggesting runners could take on more, I think the problem with running is the motion sickness you get. 

I've not tried Marten gels, lots of runners were using them at last years Boston Marathon.

I still have a pro-deal from Gu so get a big discount so I tend to just use them as I know they sit well with me. I used to get terrible sickness with SIS gels. 

In reply to webbo:

Or with the right training and a gel every 30 mins you can go faster... 

Fueling during speeds recovery and makes you faster. 

Once I started doing 24 hr plus and multi-day events I've found them really helpful as once you're in the zone, it's one less thing you need to think about / faff-with as getting your nutrition wrong can have disastrous consequences. I like the SIS isotonic ones - little bit bigger/heavier but don't dry your mouth out like some. I did a 5-day, unsupported event in the arctic winter - it was -30C and I literally survived on jelly babies and gels for the final day - I thought I'd run out and found one last one tucked in a pocket 10km to go - it was like nectar. Surprisingly, they don't freeze solid at those temperatures either. When supplemented with energy drink, I can go on one-a-hour pretty well indefinitely. 

In reply to Uluru:

X-Miles seem to do them. The shop is solid too, ordered from them before. Appear to be cheaper than Amazon. 

But I agree, packing multiple gels for every long run/weekend feels gross for the stomach. The most I carried was 27 gels for a solo self-supported adventure, but consumed only 15-20 of them. 

In reply to Roadrunner6:

I gave them a go at some point, but only bought 4 in total. I liked them - they are like slightly salted, not really sweet, runny/diluted jello. They are the most boring/utilitarian gel I ever tried, but in a good way. From what I gathered, their main selling point is ability for one to digest more of them without side effects.

I figured that if I can get some gels to work (SiS, ironically, work much better than GU or similar), then there's no point spending money on Maurten. After all, I am staring at 4 big boxes of gels (15-30 per box) right now. My wallet would not want that money being spent on Maurten!

I should go back and try real food again... With running 70-100 mile weeks, some nutrition becomes necessary evil. 

In reply to Derry:

I ate/drank 10 in my last marathon, starting fairly early in the race. I was actually carrying on more at the finish line but I just couldn't stomach it. These were SIS ones.

Unfortunately the marathon I have entered in the autumn only provides water so I will have to find a denser sugar supply.

In reply to tlouth7:

10?!  That seems high. What was your nutrition strategy? How much breakfast do you eat? How long are you running for? 
 

In reply to Derry:

Thanks for all the replies. On the balance of it I'm not going to bother. Always been pretty good on jelly babies, water and cake. Don't fancy upsetting myself with potentially unpalatable gloop. Cheers though

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

They don't have a noticable after taste. They are a bit more like a smoothie texture than you traditional gels. 

In reply to PPP:

Thank you for that tip! I just orered some from them as they had a discount code for them

In reply to tlouth7:

10 in a marathon seems a lot. Some of the manufacturers say 1 every 20 mins but I find that too many and do a max of one every half hour. So in a 4 hr race I might take 8 but only use 6 with the later ones being caffeine ones.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

The problem wasn't so much nutrition as low training mileage, so my body wasn't adapted to hold enough glycogen. I was basically eating as much as I could handle in order to push hitting the wall as far back as possible. I'm aiming to be much better adjusted this time round, but don't fancy carrying even 5 gels. Hence the need for something denser.

In reply to webbo:

Ok, in a 5 hour ride I expend c4000 calories and am replacing c 720 of them, how do you suggest I improve my training to maintain performance and remove the top up strategy?

In reply to JimR:

A lot of people seem to recommend fasted runs/rides to develop fuel storage burning. I couldn’t tell what to do but have definitely read it as a suggestion. I know Kenyan elites will often do 40k on empty stomachs/just a banana

I’m not suggesting you do this just noting it’s clearly possible for the body to adapt to high mileage on very little eaten fuel

In reply to JimR:

With the right training you can raise your anaerobic/ aerobic threshold. So you the raise the effort level at which you start using  glycogen and therefore hit the wall or bonk.

In reply to webbo:

Well I’m riding 20 hours a week, 16 hours at c65% max hr other 4 hours mixture of hill repeats, sweet spot and 1 hour at 90% max hr. How do you suggest I improve that?

In reply to JimR:

Are you not doing any shorter intervals on the flat or 5 minutes on 1 minute off x 8 at just above your 1 hour 90% level. Or you could get some coaching advice from someone who might be able to back up what they suggest.

In reply to JimR:

You don’t need to replace the top-up strategy. What you’re doing is fine. Pretty much 80/20 low/high intensity, with a high volume of endurance work. Depends what you’re aiming for I guess. Probably not great for track sprinting but looks pretty good for road racing. I don’t think “reducing the need to take 4 gels on a 5 hour ride” is a worthy training aim, but I reckon based on the training you do you’d get away with a couple if you had a big bowl of porridge beforehand. 

In reply to tlouth7:

It’s not just how much your body can hold, it’s the rate it burns in combination with fats. Endurance training helps your body burn fats as a higher percentage of fuel and spare glycogen. 

In reply to JimR:

Where does that figure come from? Sounds like a lot to me. I'm no expert but I've read articles saying recent studies show fit individuals burn far less calories than previously thought.

In reply to DaveHK:

Oops you’re right looked at wrong ride , on last 5 hour one (with power meter and hrm) Mr Garmin tells me I used 1986 cals, more realistic.

In reply to JimR:

That sounds a bit more like it!  

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I’ll run 30k ‘fasted’ but the important thing is the rate you’re working at. The Kenyans will be running at an easy rate. And they’ll run 40k in 2:30. 
 

The big thing slower runners don’t appreciate is a 20mile run isn’t a 20mile run, it’s a 2:30 run. Going out and running 20miles for a 4 hour runner will take 3:30 and this is counterproductive. 20miles is what everyone saw the elites do and so they copied it.

I now run 2 10mile runs on consecutive days. Or two 13mile runs a week. If I’m going long I’ll maybe go for 2:40 which is 16-17miles tops. Leave the marathons for race days. 
 

A well trained athlete should be able to hold enough glycogen for a 60-90 minute race. The faster you run the quicker you burn through it. If you’re running slower you’re using a mix of fat and glycogen. 
 

If you’ve trained for a marathon your body will automatically fat adapt as part of the training, you don’t need to run fasted. I just do because I can and I’m not getting up 2 hours earlier on a Sunday to have breakfast. I’ll eat properly the night before. Hence ‘fasted’. No one actually runs medically fasted. 

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I'm an advocate for training high mileage without nutrition to enable racing longer distances with minimal nutrician. My favourite marathon training long run would be 15 miles at target marathon pace + 1 minute per mile, then 5 miles at target marathon pace. For me that would 20 miles in around 2:30. Training in the winter, I would do that with before breakfast and with no food or water.

I raced 20 miles (2:15) in that programme as a marathon test, with no food and just used water for temperature regulation. It was an 11am start so I had some toast and jam at 8:30. Unfortunately, I got injured a couple of weeks before the marathon, so things didn't quite go to plan, but nothing to do with race nutrition.

My wife got a 25 minute PB at Edinburgh as a 45 year old (3:24), I didn't realise until she finished, but she didn't even have a drink. I actually think a sip of something sugary in the last few miles might have shaved another minute or two off the time, but it shows what a reasonably well conditioned body can do.

In reply to The New NickB:

Drinks used to be banned in the marathon. I think they were allowed an orange squash at 10miles on the first London marathon. 
 

“It’s a race, not a picnic!” - Tom Williams. 

In reply to DancingOnRock:

I think Tom was quoting Bill Adcocks (Commonwealth Silver - Kingston 1966, 5th at Mexico City Olympics 1968, 2:10:48 PB).

In reply to DancingOnRock:

I've often thought the next version of humanity should come with some sort of dial or coloured  energy/fuel indicator bar built in so one could tell what was going on at a glance

In reply to nufkin:

The current one already has a load of indicators, you just have to learn how to read them. Most people have lost that ability from sitting around all day and going everywhere in cars, while eating chocolate and drinking coffee. 

In reply to Ridge:

I've no idea how many calories one burns in a mile, but yes, the idea is right.  For the first hour or two you use up your glycogen stores, after that you are burning fat and muscle.  Gel's and food can top up the tank but they can't keep it full.  The best ultra runners are those who can efficiently burn fat and muscle, almost to a point where they don't notice the transition between sugar burning and fat burning.  Eoin Keith took this to extremes a couple of years ago when he ran the Spine Race only eating a few hundred calories on the way.  He just didn't feel he needed it.

In reply to ablackett:

You’re in a very bad place if you use up glycogen stores! 
 

Ultra runners run at a speed so the fat continually replenishes the glycogen. It’s a very complex cycle.
 

Marathon runners should be running slightly faster to the point that their glycogen isn’t being topped up as fast as they’re using it. Gels will only offset that usage so much. 

In reply to ablackett:

It is 100 calories a mile. Give or take a tiny amount.

You can 'now' absorb around 90grams of carb per hour, with mixed carbs (glucose/fructose) which is about 360 calories.

At anaerobic threshold and above you are burning 100% glycogen. (roughly pace for <1hr events)

Below anaerobic threshold you are burning a mix of fat and glycogen.

When you run out of carbs your body shuts down, assuming no ketosis or other funny business.

You can train the % fat/carb mix and for endurance events you want the % of fat to be as high as possible, at the highest % of threshold possible. 

Then what you can do becomes about maths  

In reply to ClimberEd:

 

I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here. When you run out of glucose your body shuts down, but you should never run out of glucose unless something has gone badly wrong. Carbs are just what are digesting in your stomach. Your liver breaks down what it’s presented with and produces glycogen or fat, depending on what your insulin levels are. Your insulin levels are triggered by blood sugar levels. But the liver can only process at a certain maximum rate.
 

It least that’s how I understand it to work. 

In reply to DancingOnRock:

bonking? (as it is colloquially known). When you run out of muscle glycogen. Of which you have approximately 2000calories stored when full. (this can be tweaked)

Lots and lots of examples of it.

Here's a good one. Ignore the 'American commentary'

youtube.com/watch?v=MTn1v5TGK_w&

In reply to ClimberEd:

That’s running out of glycogen, not running out of carbs. 

In reply to DancingOnRock:

If you don't match you energy expenditure with your energy use and intake that is what happens.

Carbs are used for your energy intake. It's essentially the same thing. 

In reply to ClimberEd:

I’m aware I may appear to be splitting hairs but they’re not. Carbohydrate intake is in the form of food, but you break down fat into glucose as well (Body or food). You can’t actually run out of carbohydrate if you’re talking specifically about the carbohydrate known as glucose as your body is essentially made from it. But usually the terms carbohydrate and glucose are specifically used for food and blood sugar respectively. So running out of carbohydrate  infers you’ve not got any food in your stomach.
 

You don’t need to keep eating if you’re working at a low enough level. 
 

Bonking happens when your blood sugar is low, because you’ve worked at too high an output for too long, not because you’ve not eaten enough gels. 

In reply to DancingOnRock:

You are splitting hairs.

For the purpose of advice for endurance events nutrition you have a store of glycogen in your body (your fuel tank) . As you exercise you utilise this, the rate depends on the intensity level of the exercise. (how fast you use the fuel) You can also top it up by eating carbs. (putting more in the tank)

As long as you finish the event before your store of glycogen runs out you'll be fine. You can do this by balancing your initial glycogen store plus your carb intake with your glycogen burning. 

If your exercise intensity is low enough, or if you are in ketosis, you can utilise almost 100% fat burning and your glycogen store and intake becomes irrelevant. 

edit for link: This guy is the expert on it. And his website has some fantastic graphics that show concepts very clearly

https://www.mysportscience.com/

In reply to ClimberEd:

Cheers for that. https://www.mysportscience.com/post/120-grams-per-hour This is very interesting. I wonder and I haven’t read the follow up blog whether the athletes were resupplied via feed stations. If you are carrying twice the amount of fuel then weight wise it could really add up

In reply to ClimberEd:

Yes. I already agreed with all that. 
 

What you’re not doing is running out of carbs. That’s misleading. You can’t just keep shovelling carbs in. You’re running out of stored glycogen. That’s the part the poster is having trouble with as they’re eating 10gels in a marathon because they’ve been told to keep their carbs up. 
 

That also brings up the outdated aspect of carb loading...

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Is that not gospel anymore? That's my favourite part of doing exercise

In reply to nufkin:

It’s not possible to increase your stores above what they are normally limited to. If you are training for a marathon you’ll be eating tons anyway. Just eat what you’d normally eat and your stores will be full. Eating a massive bowl of pasta the night before your long run will just mean you‘ll probably have to make a stop in the bushes at some point. 

In reply to Derry: Aaw  you gotta try Gels, unless your an ethicalist, they only cost a quid, but I got my wife oats in a honey ball and mentoes  but Kendal mintcake would be as good  whilst we both had salami sandwiches on a slower long run  the other day. Remember it’s god magnesium that  does the good things. 

In reply to DancingOnRock:

No one is saying that you have to have carbs in your stomach at all times during a race, but running out of glycogen (hitting the wall or bonking) is clearly a problem for most people. You can train your body to store more glycogen, to use it up slower at a given pace, or to burn fat as well. None of that detracts from the fact that you can also top up your blood sugar by taking in carbs during a race.

Given I had not trained adequately to burn fat at race pace my finish time was directly driven by how long I could delay hitting the wall. By supplementing my glycogen store with a considerable quantity of gels I was able to bonk about 1km before the finish line despite maintaining a decent pace. If I had taken fewer gels I would have to have run slower, or hit the wall sooner.

Of course it is better to train adequately, but until race time is limited by some factor other than glycogen availability there will always be an advantage to taking in some carbs.

In reply to tlouth7:

No. But as you say; The point is you can only absorb so many calories per hour so purely loading up on gels on the run isn’t going to get you out of trouble. And while training while fasted is supposed to be beneficial, really you need to just train and your body will become used to you running long distances. As someone posted above; your aerobic threshold determines whether you’re running aerobically or not and training at fast paces is going to help push that up. 

In reply to Derry:

They work really well for me and I use them for any endurance event, be it trail running or alpine climbing. High carb payload in a tiny package, with some other minerals and a range of flavours. The caffeine infused gels also give a nice little energy hit.

BUT - things I have learned: I can only eat them for 2 - 3 hrs max before they upset my stomach. I try to eat "real" food at the start and then go on to gels if needed later. I try to train in a fasted or semi fasted state anyway, so I reduce my reliance on all food, including gels, when doing endurance sports. They are messy so you need to bring a ziplock bag for the used tube. If you eat too many or eat them too quick, you will experience a momentary "high" and then "bonk" - which is not great in the high alpine.

I like the Torq range the best.

In reply to George.D:

The momentary high is due to the brain releasing glycogen. It holds reserves to protect itself when it detects the blood sugar dropping.  The gel will take much longer to digest hence the bonk while you’re waiting for the actual carbs to be digested and absorbed. 
 

You’ve either not eaten properly before your event or you’ve left it too late to take the gels. You need to take them well before you need them, little and often.