Good bye to the ROC MM and SMM

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 Herdwickmatt 10 Jun 2020

Well that's a sad moment. I've just watch Shane's video cancelling the ROC (http://www.rocmountainmarathon.com/2020/06/2020-event-cancelled/)

I'm sad that a great event has ended like this, I'm also sad about the slow death of the mountain marathon race format. When I started racing 10+ years ago there were 5 in Britain (Highlander, LAMM, SLMM, RAB and the OMM, we've also seen the Dark Mountains and Marmot 24 come and go) we are now down to 2 (plus some minis). Sad times. 

The times are changing.... 

 bigbobbyking 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

> we are now down to 2 (plus some minis). Sad times. 

> The times are changing.... 

That's a shame: I only discovered the mountain marathon format last year! Looks like I am behind the fashion

 vscott 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Out of curiosity is the weekend format maybe being squeezed out on one side by the growing popularity of 1-day ultras (Glencoe skyline etc.) and week+ long sagas (Spine, Dragon's back etc.)?

OP Herdwickmatt 10 Jun 2020
In reply to vscott:

I don't know, I think it's a whole range of things. We speculated about it one of the other threads about mm kit weight.

With regards why maybe they are less popular, I don't know, maybe they sound hardcore and elitist. It's a unique skill set, ability to nav in crappy weather whilst moving slowly through crappy terrain to get a crappy nights sleep whilst eating crappy dehydrated food and then do it all again the next day. When you write it down I see why they might not appeal in the same way as an ultra on trails with food stations etc...

But they offer great value for money, a great experience, and have been such a great fixture of the UK calender. 

I'd say that firstly they are hard to organise (compared to say a linear course which follows the same route each year) and the cost/profit margins are minimal (because the are such good value) and for Ourea events they probably make lots more money on the Dragons Back and Cape Wrath than they do scouting new areas each year, plotting 5+ different courses etc. So I think they have made a financial/time decision (which I don't begrudge them, they need to make a living).

XXXX 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Am I misunderstanding? These events have been cancelled for 2020 due to covid and are expected back in 2021.

OP Herdwickmatt 10 Jun 2020
In reply to XXXX:

No, Ourea are discontinuing them. So this year was the last year...

 greg_may_ 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt

Some left still: OMM, SLMM, Mourne, GMC  (BAMM, OMM Aus., OMM Jp.)

The Scottish MM should have a new RO for next year - not yet been officially announced I believe, but you'll possibly hear who it is.

The one day format was doing very well with Kong and Peak Raids having huge numbers in the past year. Lots more people taking on the longer orienteering events as well, which is great. 

We, PFO, were hoping to have Capricorn back this year - shall see what happens with BOF.

 Dark-Cloud 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

From what i gather Ourea are concentrating on the four flagship events and favouring quality over quantity, they are a pretty small team from what i know and imagine things were getting stretched.

On a positive we did the Silva Great Lakeland 3 day last year, was a great event, i can highly recommend it.

Roadrunner6 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I thought MM's were getting more popular, a few years ago they were hard to get into.

I love the format. I'd love to create something here with that format.

OP Herdwickmatt 10 Jun 2020
In reply to greg_may_:

In the video announcing it sounds like there is no-one taking over the Scottish MM. I was under the impression Kong were, until the cancellation video. 

Yes, I'd forgotten about the GMC, but it's on my to do list if it's on this year! Also the rest aren't in Britain, Mourne/Sentanta Orienteers Rogaine are in Ireland but it's still a long weekend/week to get to them.

OP Herdwickmatt 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Am I right you are states based? Have you done any of the rogaine events? I'd like to see more of that in the UK, longer one day events, more than just the 4hour style (which are fun but not quite enough for me to feel like categorising as an "A" race)

 DaveHK 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I think they are probably very difficult to run on a amateur / volunteer basis and difficult to make money out of for commercial organisations like Ourea.

 bouldery bits 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Sad news indeed. 

I wonder who would turn up to the 'no insurance, no help' Bouldery_Bits MM? 

Post edited at 18:21
OP Herdwickmatt 10 Jun 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

Yep I’d go for it. Name the place and time 

 SouthernSteve 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

> On a positive we did the Silva Great Lakeland 3 day last year, was a great event, i can highly recommend it.

Even the GL3D has changed with food sellers and a much more carnival atmosphere over the last few years with the participants usually staying in one place for 2 days now rather than moving on. To stay under weight is easy as you can be fairly certain to be able to buy food on site. I suspect the marquee blowing down repeatedly in the Duddon valley in 2017 was a factor in that as well as the massive effort to move everything as soon as the runners were underway. It is a very good event and a real shame that both the may and then the august dates have now been postponed to next year. Very different feel from an Ultra or the OMM. 

Post edited at 18:34
 DancingOnRock 10 Jun 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

I run an event that relies on volunteers for aid stations and is self navigational. It’s reasonably popular. The cost is very low. 
 

I don’t think it would be commercially viable of about 300 entrants we make less than £3k. If we had to pay for volunteers it just wouldn’t work. The time spent on the day alone would run into £1,000s forget about time spent organising beforehand and answering queries. The official paperwork is heavy as well, race permits, risk assessments. 
 

Then there’s people who go AWOL. I still have a duty of care towards people who have had enough and just go home without telling anyone. There’s usually 5/6 phone calls to make at the end of the day to find out where they are. 
 

My view is these types of events need sponsors from major companies but need to be run by a team of willing volunteers. In my experience when people pay money for something, no matter how little, they expect a 5 star professional event, the feedback is usually excellent but you get a few detractors that take up a disproportionate amount of time. Couple that with negative publicity that can flare up on social media because one entrant didn’t read the brief and has gone off at the deep end, it can take days to sort that out. Willing volunteers get very weary very quickly. 
 

This year I have to go virtual because of COVID but even that requires a race permit and people will be expecting medals to be posted out...

 bouldery bits 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Leave it with me.... 

OP Herdwickmatt 10 Jun 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Do you mind me asking which event? No worries if you want to stay anonymous.

I guess there's a move away from races organised by clubs/charities to "professional" events companies. And yeah I you are paying £100 for a sky race, or £40 for a 10k trail race, you're probably within your rights to demand a professionally put together event with all the bells and whistles. But then I suppose it's difficult when people come to your event and still demand the same experience but on a very different budget.

I think Ourea (and I could be wrong) offered race entries for marshalls as payment.

OP Herdwickmatt 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SouthernSteve:

Part of the allure of the GL3D is that full tour of the Lakes, with a little less suffering (but still with a substantial amount of suffering!). I guess it's about supplying an event for the completers not necessarily just the competers.

 DaveHK 10 Jun 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

>  

> My view is these types of events need sponsors from major companies but need to be run by a team of willing volunteers.

Is the OMM not a bit like this? A mix of commercial and voluntary input.

 Neil Williams 10 Jun 2020
In reply to bigbobbyking:

They're mostly team events I think?  Which if I'm understanding rightly creates a barrier to entry over and above "it being hard" (long solo ultras)?

 ianstevens 10 Jun 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

> I think they are probably very difficult to run on a amateur / volunteer basis and difficult to make money out of for commercial organisations like Ourea.

Ourea have an application process for volunteers so I’d guess they do pretty well recruiting there 

 SouthernSteve 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

> an event for the completers not necessarily just the competers

I like that!

OP Herdwickmatt 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Some allow solos, some don't. The Scottish MM didn't, the ROC did, same company but different rules (I think based on the severity of terrain and location).

Maybe the amount of gear is also prohibitive, whilst you don't need ultralight gear, you do need decent enough gear. Which might be why the one day/4 hour format is doing so well.

 DancingOnRock 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I organise it as a part of our club. I guess financially if every volunteer just donated £30 instead of their whole day, the club would bring in more money for less effort. 
 

The problem is the big organisations have made a rod for their own backs. To attract people you need the big marquees, the food vendors, race photos, big medal, fully supported routes. Big outlay. This trickles down to small club races. There’s still a place for £20 races and people really like the small key trail races. We found a big shiny medal attracts competitors which is really weird. And I still get people entering who are expecting a marked out course with marshals and get lost, while some people look forward to getting lost. Personally I do an event for the experience. I’ve got a box full of medals and t-shirts I never look at. 
 

A self supported adventure race should have marshals at road crossings and key control points, and that should be it really. Big marquees and food sellers seems to be an anathema to the ethos. IMO. 

 DancingOnRock 10 Jun 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

I think so. There’s also a base camp that you return to each evening as far as I know. I think maybe the events that have gone OTT to attract people for the ‘wrong reasons’ will struggle to continue to make money. 

 Dark-Cloud 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SouthernSteve:

Yes totally different to the OMM etc, I have done plenty of traditional MM, the GL3D was a nice change, although I did think the food on site was strange after being used the the traditional MM format, I couldn’t be bothered queuing but you could have packed much lighter without a doubt, also I felt like it was cheating ! 

1
OP Herdwickmatt 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Sounds a bit OTT. I remember walking to the chippy one evening on a GL3D years ago. I felt abit bad but it was 2hour round trip!

Roadrunner6 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Yes, and no I've not. I thought rogaining was more of a NZ/Aus thing. I've liked the local orienteering group page but being COVID most things are down. I'd certainly be interested in larger events.

One of the best weekends I ever had running though was an early GL3d event when it was a good 90-100 miles or so over 3 days in the lakes, just brilliant fun. Long long days but it was just really pure running.

I liked the 3 hr MMM events, just a good training run to see a new area.

OP Herdwickmatt 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6: 

https://www.tanznavigation.org/calendar.php

Might be of help, also maybe Attackpoint calendar?

i think the world regained champs was going to be in California this year.

Roadrunner6 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Cool thanks I hadn't seen that. 

 Simon Caldwell 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

The SMM isn't being taken over as such. But as someone else said, the same people who organise the Kong series of 4 hour events, are launching their own Scottish event starting next year. Details haven't been announced yet (apart from the dates which I think are June 5/6). I don't know who the sponsors will be.

When I started doing MMs in 2005 we had the LAMM, Saunders, OMM, and Mourne (plus I think one or two very very small informal events). There was also the Capricorn (2 days but back to base between). We later gained the Highlander, RAB (which became the ROC), Dark Mountains, and Marmot24. The Highlander has gone, the ROC also, Darm Mountains has finished but I know that there's at least one possibly two organisations interested in taking it over. The Marmot24 was brilliant but only lasted 3 or 4 years, it never got enough entries to break even.

So we're pretty much in the same place we were in 15 years ago with 4 major events (5 if the Dark Mountains continues in some form). But we now have more small events (the Kong and Explore series). Sad times as you say, but maybe there's a limit to the number of events that can be supported by the available numbers of competitors?

Edit: and yes I forgot the GMC despite having done it twice and hoping to go back for more this year! So things are on the up...

Post edited at 13:15

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