Castle Howard Marathon 2021 and 2022: Was the Distance Short? Action?

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 thelostjockey 18 Oct 2022

I ran the Castle Howard Marathon in 2021 and also 2022. On both occasions, my Garmin watch suggested the distance was short: this year, it recorded 25 miles exactly and gave me a Personal Best that was unlikely. Looking at the feedback for the race, about 10% of respondents also questioned the distance. I contacted Castle Race Series, the company who organises the race, but they would not clearly state if the distance was short. One employee said in an email the "missing distance" would be restored. However, the founder of the company only offered to speak on the phone and considered the case closed when I asked for a brief, written, email reply. As runners have targets in terms of numbers of races run and PBs, I feel what I paid for was not fit for purpose. Do you have any suggestions? With thanks.

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 plyometrics 18 Oct 2022
In reply to thelostjockey:

If it’s an accredited marathon course, UKA might be worth contacting. Some interesting info here: https://www.runbritain.com/blogs/road-race-course-measurement--registration

I’d argue if it’s accredited and then is proved to be shorter, I’d want my money back. You defo don’t enter a marathon to get short changed in distance, particularly if you’re aiming for a PB.

If it’s not accredited, you might have to take it on the chin, as disappointing as that is. 

Interested to know how it spans out for you.

 wbo2 18 Oct 2022
In reply to thelostjockey:  This is off road? So perhaps unlikely to be accredited.  Multiple laps? Some measuring might be in order from an OS map

 The New NickB 18 Oct 2022
In reply to thelostjockey:

Was it advertised as a certified course? If so, ask to see the certificate.

If it wasn’t, not a lot to do.

Certified courses can be wrong as well, but are much, much less likely to be so. GPS watches are often out, but usually over rather than under measure.

 David Riley 18 Oct 2022
In reply to The New NickB:

>  GPS watches are often out, but usually over rather than under measure.

I don't see how they could be over.  Errors would be assuming a straight line between two points on your track.  So always short.  What mechanism would make it long ?

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 Lhod 18 Oct 2022
In reply to David Riley:

They can be over if the data points are inaccurate, e.g. if you've run a straight line but the GPS is zigzagging either side. This was typical of early smartphones, less likely with modern watches but it can still happen. Particularly if off road and coverage is patchy.

A good example of a measured course which comes up short on GPS is Faskally Forest parkrun. When I did it the organisers stressed at the start that it was accurately measured, and GPS often records it at as short. The time I took to run it was about right, but it came up as 2.68 mi on my Garmin 235 (and the same on my wife's). It's a hilly forest with twists and turns, so not too surprising. 

 David Riley 18 Oct 2022
In reply to Lhod:

> They can be over if the data points are inaccurate,

Yes, although to make much difference the errors would have to be large enough that you could see the tracking deviating from your known path when displayed on a map.

 Ridge 18 Oct 2022
In reply to David Riley:

> Yes, although to make much difference the errors would have to be large enough that you could see the tracking deviating from your known path when displayed on a map.

I think on any twisty course, particularly with tree cover or tall buildings, that describes most running GPS tracks 😉

 jkarran 18 Oct 2022
In reply to David Riley:

> I don't see how they could be over.  Errors would be assuming a straight line between two points on your track.  So always short.  What mechanism would make it long ?

Could easily be either way. Consider two absurd examples:

A dead straight course but each position fix comes with uncertainty, if you simply sum the distances between fixes up in sequence the track is a zig zag and therefore longer than the straight you ran.

Now imagine a zig zag course where because of the low sample rate each position fix just happens to lie on a straight line, the sum of the lines between fixes is shorter than the course you ran.

Lots of tree cover around Castle Howard, poor GPS accuracy and update rate are both a possibility.

OP: If you have a course map or a trace, try plotting it in something like Google earth, see if you track cuts corners that exist in the terrain. c5% error when planning a route seems pretty unlikely even if it was just measured off a map.

jk

 SouthernSteve 18 Oct 2022
In reply to thelostjockey:

The Lakeland Trails Coniston Marathon is about 600 yards short, annoying if you only run trail marathons, but it will never be a PB - those tree roots at the end!

Manchester was short for a couple of years in the past and that caused a furore, and was subsequently changed and apologies given. People qualified for other races for instance that shouldn't have. Trail races are always a bit hit and miss and sometimes finding you have an extra mile to run when you have already turned up the heat for the end can be a killer.

 Pedro50 18 Oct 2022
In reply to SouthernSteve:

> The Lakeland Trails Coniston Marathon is about 600 yards short, annoying if you only run trail marathons, but it will never be a PB - those tree roots at the end!

True! My sister's slowest ever, she tripped on a root and badly dislocated a finger. Fortunately a nearby canoeing surgeon sorted it in situ.

 The New NickB 18 Oct 2022
In reply to David Riley:

Try running around a track with a GPS on. 

 steveriley 18 Oct 2022
In reply to thelostjockey:

Vote with your feet and just don’t enter again. No course is ever 100% bang on whether GP, calibrated bike computer or measurement wheel. Even if it’s officially course measured you’ll get variance. You’d be surprised how much variation you can get on the same course when remeasured subsequently for revalidation. Sounds like your impression is they don’t want to give a firm answer. I’d imagine the likes of Power of 10 and Run Britain only show licensed courses but no real idea?

 Ridge 18 Oct 2022
In reply to Pedro50:

> True! My sister's slowest ever, she tripped on a root and badly dislocated a finger. Fortunately a nearby canoeing surgeon sorted it in situ.

Bad flooding that year?

 BusyLizzie 19 Oct 2022
In reply to SouthernSteve:

>Trail races are always a bit hit and miss and sometimes finding you have an extra mile to run when you have already turned up the heat for the end can be a killer.

I ran the Clarendon marathon (Salisbury to Winchester) two weeks ago - it's a lovely trail race, but according to my garmin about 26.6 miles, which made me unreasonably grumpy near the end.

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 ExiledScot 19 Oct 2022
In reply to thelostjockey:

If people want to grumble about distances I presume they've walked the mid line of the course with a wheel and aren't put all their faith in relatively low budget gps.

Beside you're not running in the Olympics, it's all just for fun. 

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 plyometrics 19 Oct 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> Beside you're not running in the Olympics, it's all just for fun. 

Except for some people it’s not just for fun. In fact, putting your heart and soul into trying to push a marathon PB is, for most people, hard bloody work and very rarely “fun”.

Imagine spending 12 months training and focussing on a 26.2 PB, and the sacrifices that generally entails, then finding out on race day the course distance is short. Personally, I’d be pretty p*ssed. 

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 tlouth7 19 Oct 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

Not the midline, the calibration is based on the shortest practical line for a road race.

 David Riley 19 Oct 2022
In reply to The New NickB:

> Try running around a track with a GPS on. 

Is it "usually over rather than under measure." ?

 ExiledScot 19 Oct 2022
In reply to plyometrics:

Fun, in the type 2+ sense, plus it's not life, death or livelihood at stake. If runners are holding on so tight, how will they cope with inactivity caused by injury. Plus, if precise times are so critical enter big ticket officially registered events.

Finally and arguably the biggest, fun runs, park run, club events, nearly all events etc.. they are totally independent on unpaid volunteers, yeah you can have precision everything and pay for it, or have events that are 95% as well planned for a fraction of the price. 

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 ExiledScot 19 Oct 2022
In reply to tlouth7:

> Not the midline, the calibration is based on the shortest practical line for a road race.

I have often wondered that, whilst swinging from one kerb to another, thinking I've shaved a few metres off! I've never done the course measuring bit myself (obviously).

 Levy_danny 19 Oct 2022
In reply to BusyLizzie:

Always budget a little bit of mental resiliance for a little more. I find I usually go over as you add a little by dodging around people. 

 galpinos 19 Oct 2022
In reply to David Riley:

Under on a track as you spend 50% of you time running a tight bend and the GPS is measuring straight lines inside that curve. 

 ExiledScot 19 Oct 2022
In reply to Levy_danny:

> Always budget a little bit of mental resiliance for a little more. I find I usually go over as you add a little by dodging around people. 

The bigger the event, the worse this is as people enter overly ambitious finishing times. 

In reply to galpinos:

Not necessarily- I get an over measurement on the local track.

My watch copes with the tight bends fine, but the signal gets obscured at one end by the stands and my watch ends up thinking I’m at the top of a small nearby hill. Adds about 40m distance and about 20m altitude gain to the GPS trace on every lap.

 David Riley 19 Oct 2022
In reply to galpinos:

The New NickB was claiming "GPS watches are often out, but usually over rather than under measure."

I would expect gps to read short on a track.

 ExiledScot 19 Oct 2022
In reply to thelostjockey:

Forget what I said about big ticket events being precise!

https://www.bbc.com/sport/scotland/63314125

 Harry Jarvis 19 Oct 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

Shockingly, this is the second time this event has been short, with both times causing records to be invalidated.

 Tom Briggs 19 Oct 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

I find that incredible. Interesting how gracious McColgan is towards the organisers. I bet your average club runner who thought they'd got a PB wouldn't be so forgiving!

 steveriley 19 Oct 2022
In reply to wbo2:

Yep, Manchester too. It's probably easier to let go of the idea of 'exact distance' and take the PB unless the course distance is officially queried. First hand evidence of the remeasuring of our club half marathon!

 robert-hutton 19 Oct 2022
In reply to plyometrics:

> Except for some people it’s not just for fun. In fact, putting your heart and soul into trying to push a marathon PB is, for most people, hard bloody work and very rarely “fun”.

> Imagine spending 12 months training and focussing on a 26.2 PB, and the sacrifices that generally entails, then finding out on race day the course distance is short. Personally, I’d be pretty p*ssed. 

Off road races, PB are just for that course you just race others and not time, only one winner its how close you get to them that matters.

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 plyometrics 19 Oct 2022
In reply to robert-hutton:

I’m talking about road, not off road. 

 robert-hutton 19 Oct 2022
In reply to plyometrics:

> I’m talking about road, not off road. 

Still only one winner its how close you get to them that matters.

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 plyometrics 19 Oct 2022
In reply to robert-hutton:

Ok. 

 BusyLizzie 19 Oct 2022
In reply to Levy_danny:

Yes you're quite right, and I will do that in future!

 mountainbagger 19 Oct 2022
In reply to plyometrics:

> Except for some people it’s not just for fun. In fact, putting your heart and soul into trying to push a marathon PB is, for most people, hard bloody work and very rarely “fun”.

> Imagine spending 12 months training and focussing on a 26.2 PB, and the sacrifices that generally entails, then finding out on race day the course distance is short. Personally, I’d be pretty p*ssed. 

This happened to me with a half marathon. I went sub 90 then found out the course was short! Annoyingly it wasn't that short so if it had been the correct length I would still have snuck under the 90. But it simply doesn't count in my mind. I still haven't beaten that time some 9 years later

But I will keep trying!

 The New NickB 19 Oct 2022
In reply to David Riley:

> The New NickB was claiming "GPS watches are often out, but usually over rather than under measure."

> I would expect gps to read short on a track.

My experience and that of everyone I have spoken to about it at my club, if you run a mile on the track (4 laps + 9m) your GPS will tell you that you have run a mile somewhere along the home straight.

 The New NickB 19 Oct 2022
In reply to David Riley:

As another example, I organised a 5k race. A new course, we had a reasonable idea on the distance, a number of us ran the course wearing a GPS to get it reasonably accurate, then paid for it to be measured with a calibrated wheel and certified. Our GPS measured route was 200m short.


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