UKH

Spent the day at Wynd Cliff today, and wanted to draw attention to the very bad state of the belays at the top of routes on the Left-Hand Crag.

The top of Sinew (HVS 5a) is simply not safe. The belay/abseil point is on a very dead tree. This appears to be backed up with a rope that looks very old indeed, that goes up to what appears to be a solid tree - but in order to get up to check that tree you are required to proceed up a very insecure 45 degree slope of loose topsoil, large rocks, and weak saplings. A fall from here would be extremely serious, and might well dislodge enough debris to kill people below. 

The top of Fibre (VS 4c) is even worse. The tree that the abseil point is backed up to is not only dead, but has been fully uprooted and is lying on its side. If that goes, deaths will surely occur. Again, escaping the route 'safely' now requires shuffling up an insecure dirt slope to belay 55+ meters off the deck way back on trees much further up, and then walking off.

After the above two explorations we learned our lesson and didn't climb The Don (E2 5c), and which reports on the logbooks indicate is in the same bad state belay-wise. Furthermore the thread on the crux looks to me like the one that was there when I climbed it in 2019 - if so, that's been sitting on the cliff getting blasted by UV for 3 years (the cliff faces south) and so is likely totally compromised by this point.

If I lived locally to the Wye I would go up and fix some of these issues myself - what is needed is for large lengths of static ropes to be installed securing all belays much further back to multiple mature living trees. But I'm back in London now and don't plan on being in the Wye any time soon. We had taken some tat and a knife up with us in the anticipation of improving some of the belays but what we were confronted with was far beyond our capabilities to fix with what we had.

I'm posting this here because I don't know where else to go - if the above could be brought to the attention of the relevant regional BMC officers, and to any Wye Valley activists, that would be great.

In the meantime, could UKC please put big warnings on the relevant part of the crag page, strongly discouraging people to climb these routes until the situation is rectified? People could easily be killed if the matters above are not improved ASAP.

Thanks

And if a UKC Mod could kindly edit my thread title so the name of the crag is correctly spelt, that would be great too! (Bloody autocorrect...)

I thought I had done Sinew quite recently, but checked and it was late 2019. I think I'd forgotten 2020 - I wonder why?

This sounds like significant deterioration since then - perhaps not surprising. My only comment would be that I've always finished these routes by belaying back to the mature trees and then walking off. I've never relied on the in-situ ropes unseen, without checking their anchor points. The walk off is not a problem, mostly down the "365 steps".  But I have relied on the in-situ ropes to provide handholds up the muddy slope. They do need to be replaced if no longer safe for this purpose. I live in Ipswich, but I'd be prepared to volunteer some of my retired time to assist someone with local knowledge.

Martin

BMC Access reps are all listed here:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/list-of-bmc-access-reps

Alternatively pop a message to the chairperson for the area meeting and they may be able to put you in touch with someone local.

Not climbed here more than a few times but like you seem to remember walking off down the steps. I like to think I'd have looked at and assessed the tat, but given that we're talking a few years pre-covid it was probably fine

I’ve emailed a link to this thread to our local access rep. Thanks for the information. 

Mark Kemball (BMC SW area chair).

Surely abseiling back down is only going to increase erosion of the top outs, making them more dangerous?

I have only every walked down the tourist steps, which is safe and easy.

Starting the walk off can be pretty sketchy from a few of those spots ("very insecure 45 degree slope of loose topsoil, large rocks, and weak saplings."). Especially after leaves fall. The accepted local norm is tat around sturdy trees so I see no reason to get pious about it here.

Last time I did those two routes (years ago now) the tat was looking ready for replacement. Had it in my head to take some static/cord if I went back, but at the same time I figured such popular routes someone would beat me to it. Guess not.

What I'm hearing is bolted loweroffs... *Returns to under my bridge*

The guy who invented predictive text died a couple of wwwks ago: his funfair is on monkey😂

You'd struggle to find something decent enough to stick them in at the top of Sinew. I did it in 2020 and have a vivid memory of how bad it was then at the top. Glad my belayer was the only person at the crag and I got them flush into the wall before going back to check the long fixed line (which, to be fair, was fine at the time). I really don't see an easy solution to the top of that route; you'd be looking at either equalising multiple pegs with a bit of static a few feet below the top (which would obviously look terrible and not a route I'd like to see us go down) or potentially drilling and chemical-anchoring stakes in?

Is the deterioration of the topouts at Wyndy down to dieback? A real sorry state of affairs if so. The BMC need to look into large-scale re-planting of things like Hawthorns and Yews to futureproof our limestone venues (but even then that's not going to help the instability caused by them rotting out). 

From what I remember, it wasn't even possible to walk off the top of the Don when I did it, with loads of undergrowth immediately above the 'belay'. Couldn't quite believe the state of the lower off either - tonnes of tat tied to multiple ridiculously small shrubs, plus a mystery rope going off into the undergrowth.

It blows my mind that this is seen by some as a better solution than a bolted lower off! Even if it means putting the bolts in more solid rock a couple of metres from the top, who cares? It's not like there's any good climbing in the last few metres to the belay. 

Bloody hell, even more glad I didn’t do it now! 

Last year I had to emergency abseil off the top of Fibre because rain had well and truly set in and it was the only way to retrieve the gear. I just prayed that the rope going up was tied into something good. Now I know it was a dead tree lying on its side, it makes me shudder to think what might have been 

As much as I would love to see more trees around crags, this is a bit of a long-term solution, isn't it? Yew trees in particular are very slow to grow, so we would be looking at having safe belays in about...erm 30 years? Surely placing a stake or a couple of bolts under the top section would be faster and safer solution for the time being.

Your comment in the log book is a bit OTT saying do not climb The Don (E2 5c)

"DO NOT CLIMB. Belays need securing for the routes on this section of cliff and the in-situ thread needs replacing due to many years of UV exposure. Strongly suggest not climbing this route until improvement work at the top has been undertaken."

When I climbed it last year I was able to make a safe belay on the cliff edge without relying on any of the aging tat. I put my own sling round more vegetation and belayed slightly lower with standard gear. The vegetated ground above was easy enough to climb without relying on the aging rope to alternative belay up and right where I could also have belayed. From there you can walk off or leave new tat/sling if you want to abseil off and don't like the existing tat

Agree it would be better with new tat or a stake but it is not necessary to avoid the climb, it is no worse than may a top out which has no tat, and we certainly don't need any bolts!!

i strongly suspect my comment i wrote at the time still stands:

"abseil tat was a bit rubbish but if you continue up the fixed rope (part of the abseil station fixed to unknown bush/tree) and there is another abseil station in better condition to the right (50m ropes reach ground with plenty spare). To replace 15/20m of rope probably needed to fix to a suitably large tree higher up the bank."

My advice on any abseil belay would be assess it's safe or sacrifice some back-up pro. There are way too many abseil accidents without relying on 'faith'.

in this situation as I have done at many other locations is to set up our own abseil station and use it to abseil off and do several routes then walk off or up afterwards wearing trainers to collect the abseil gear after the last route.

Of course. But in that situation, I had no choice. It would have been more dangerous to proceed up that dirt slop in heavy rain, I suspect, as that might have dislodged myself and quite a lot of the surrounding debris. I had already been forced to do the final (not especially well protected) section in the rain. You're right though, I should have ultimately abandoned a few wires just in case. Lesson learned.

Easy to say with hindsight. But to most people rocking up to Wynd Cliff, this simply won't occur to them. Abseil descents are the norm in the Wye and are very solid on the (easily accessed, usually where people start) right cliff. It's not at all the kind of crag where your average party, especially not one with no prior experience of the crag, is going to abseil in from the top

You are suggesting that people go up to the abseil station of Sinew in your logbook comment, which as per the above, is not safe either.

The thread on The Don also needs replacing, as it is almost certainly not safe to fall on. As per comments in the thread above, people who have climbed The Don more recently have found the belay to be in even worse condition than those of Sinew and Fibre.

Given this, I'd rather be OTT than UTT...

Good for you. Maybe I'm more sensitive than some as I've replaced dangerous abseil set-ups I'd just seen used that made me shudder (normally heavily bleached slings but in one case severe damage on the section behind a tree) . One of the biggest risks experienced climbers face is complacency on routine stuff away from the 'sharp end'.

I copy this regularly to make that point:

http://www.bluebison.net/yosar/alive.htm

"Most Yosemite victims are experienced climbers, 60% have been climbing for three years or more, lead at least 5.10, are in good condition, and climb frequently. Short climbs and big walls, easy routes and desperate ones – all get their share of the accidents.

....at least 80% of the fatalities and many injuries, were easily preventable. In case after case, ignorance, a casual attitude, and/or some form of distraction proved to be the most dangerous aspects of the sport."

OR  you could abbadon the wires then start a thread in the lost and found forum as serval people do each year asking for thier gear back because they had to abandoned a route in the rain etc but couldn't be bothered to walk round to the top and abseil down, if the gear is that expensive I wouldn't leave a crag without it regardless of the intensity of the rain.

A small inconvenience for securing your property when not everyone is a honest as you would hope. 

https://smileysproject.smugmug.com/Anchors/ someone showed me this the other day. He's willing to reimburse the cost of 2nd and third pieces added to your bail anchor for up to 9 bail anchors per epic to ensure people don't skimp on safety 

Yes it's not going to immediately solve the problem but the problem will still be there in 30 years if we don't do something about it now....

Stakes may be possible but as I said they would probably need to be drilled in below the top of the crag. The main issue here is not for want of anchors at the top but more the overall stability of the top of the crag. It isn't hard to find a decent tree, it is a forest after all. The problem is that to find a decent living tree on some routes you have to wade through a knee-high soil and death-block mix up a 45 degree slope to get to one. 

What it really needs is a professional overhaul and assessment of the anchor situation. Dead trees and loose blocks removed from the top. 

Bolts are an easy solution but not one I'd want to see. Wyndcliffe Main is, as far as I know, bolt-free and it's much too close to the quarry to risk putting in bolted belays. All those sport climbers will smell them from a mile off and, before you know it, there's bolts replacing the old pegs and then routes with bolder sections like Phoenix will be sporting new hardware. And I know I'll get an argument from the 'but metres of rotting tat and stakes and pegs look worse' brigade but I'm sticking to it.

You are confusing convenience with danger. If you judge the abseil station to be dangerous as I can quite belive it has become since I did it. However it is possible to leave your own gear there if you insist on abseiling off or walk off. It doesn't make the route unclimbable. It just requires more effort and using normal climbing skills which you'd have to employ on many a route which have no tat what so ever.

I've actually climbed the route and whist the thread is old and would benifit from replacement it can backed up by other gear so it is not essential to maintaining the grade of the route. When I led it clipped it but placed my own gear above and below it which was much better and was what I would have relied on in the event of a fall. Assessing insitu pegs/thread etc is an essential skill.

Given they are the norm it would be prudent to have some tat, on this occasion I didn't but in the past I have replaced lower off at Shaun Cliff and replaced the crucial thread on Touch the Fire (E2 5c) and on the same trip my partner replaced the worst threads at the time on Run for Home (E2 5b) If in doubt leave your own gear or walk off.

Is this happening elsewhere in that region? That's a genuine question - I'm trying to think of examples around where I live (Peak), but there's plenty of Limestone trad that still has motley collections of old bits rope and tape at the top; often on cliffs where there are sport routes elsewhere on the cliff, but bolted lower offs let alone bolts for runners haven't spread. I guess there are places where routes were led first as trad but have subsequently been bolted (Harpur Hill, Hidden Quarry) although I think that's mainly been done either by the FA or with his/her permission. 

I reckon the balance of people who bolt compared to people who climb on bolts must be something like 1:5000. I suspect "all those sport climbers" will have a far less keen sense of smell than you think. 

But it's not an unfair point, so one that is worth thinking of a counter argument to. 

Some of the Wye has a mixed bolting policy. Wintours for example has random scattered sport routes, some bolted belays and the odd bolt here and there on routes. From what I have heard, at recent area meetings, re-gearing has been discussed and (potentially hearsay) there may be bolts replacing pegs in places where it is not possible/impractical to replace pegs. 

Although it's no longer local to me, it would be nice if Wyndy and Shorncliff could remain totally bolt-free in my view. Although they do have some old fixed gear, they're much less reliant on it than the likes of Wintours. 

I dunno, I reckon people are able to make the distinction between bolts on a route and bolts that allow you to get down safely without either abandoning gear or a horrible scramble through brambles, mud and loose blocks. 

Planning on taking a look accessing from the top on Thursday afternoon so if anyone reading this is planning on climbing there then please bugger off elsewhere or be prepared for a block a tree or me landing on your head. Cheers 

The “small inconvenience”? It was a chucking it down and would have been insanely dangerous to try and climb above the belay, let alone going back up to try and get the gear from above in those conditions. Yes I probably should have backed up the anchor with some gear left behind, but in that situation it would have been better if the belays were just in a good condition and I wasn’t confronted with such a decision in the first place. I’m trying to bring it about that in future others aren’t faced with such a predicament, and hence in turn that nobody ends up dead. I don’t find your snotty comments about how everyone should know to walk off the top (which is not recommended in any guidebook or on UKC descriptions) particularly helpful. But hopefully you feel nice and superior about your trad climbing credentials now, whilst Pooh-poohing my attempts to actually improve the situation. 

Pretty common in the valley to take a section of abs/static rope to prep the top outs on these difficult exits.

Commit to the trad climbing ethos of adventure and preparation....take some tat with you when you go climbing stuff with difficult top outs or leave some gear behind. Bolting will just move the problem to the rock as they become neglected the same as the ropes. 

We started a clean up project to maintain in-situ stuff at Symonds Yat, maybe someone can do the same...? 

I think abseiling off is better too. What I thought I was suggesting was alternative ways out of your situation which either I'm explaining badly or you are failing to understand. Lowering off in the rain with extra gear but then walking round to the top and then doing an abseil from the top from a safe anchor to get your gear back. I don't really understand how the 2nd part is dangerous even in heavy rain. The hardest part would be finding the top as I have found in similar situations. I don't think anyone including myself has said that the situation wouldn't be improved with new tat. I've installed a pull-out rope systems a crag with a worse loose top out previously so I'm not against these. What I disputed is that people should avoid the climb completely. I would still be happy to climb all the routes having made an informed decision and knowing how to get out of the situation safely and get my gear back should I be unable to top out the vegetated exit as I expect many others would, now ever the warning may prove useful to others. Telling people what the situation is and letting them decide what to do (eg guide books/grades/ukc etc) BUT being able to adapt to unexpected situations and keep yourself safe such as you found yourself is how trad works in my experience. I expect most climbers could improve their skillset in this regard my self included. Experience can be shared without it being superior?

I absolutely agree that it's time to replace the tat. But a couple of your comments seem to imply - perhaps you didn't mean them to - that you've done everyone a service by pointing this out. Eg "I’m trying to bring it about that in future others aren’t faced with such a predicament". I think to achieve that you need to head back yourself with some static rope and sort it. In the meantime, let's be grateful that some climbers, under absolutely no obligation to do so, are willing to devote their time and some expense to making these climbs safe for others. If some routes get missed, or left for too long, then we are all collectively to blame for not doing something about it. I don't think we should assume it's someone else's responsibility.

Martin

How dare you suggest that London Boy does anything himself! This is of course an issue for the local skivvies to sort out so he can have his convenience hit when he feels like. Paul has done his part by complaining about how inconvenient it all is. 

Just to be clear then...

If any of us London based climbers go climbing anywhere outdoor and find something amiss that we feel is potentially life threatening, absolutely don't go posting about in on here for anyone else's safety as it'll be used as a stick to beat us with.

So I guess we either fix it ourselves right then and there or if, like Paul in this case, we didn't happen to have the required tools and gear needed right then and there, we'll just bugger off back to London to enjoy our flat whites and avocados and keep schtum.

Glad we cleared that up.  Prior to reading your post I'd have felt bad if someone had fallen to their death due to an issue I knew about, but now I'll be able to carry on living living with a clear conscience knowing that I've done the right thing.    

No, just dont come across as a knob when you do it. 

Rude

Also accurate 

I led Fibre with Paul on Sunday.  I didn't enjoy scrambling out on the soil / rock vegetation mix but did get to the trees in the end, slowly and carefully and I thought it wasn't too unsafe but very unpleasant with my climbing shoes half filled with top soil by the end.  Certainly, I would have abseiled off my own gear just before the route moves right at the top if it had been raining.  

We had 60m ropes and I used them all getting to a couple of good enough trees.  Our friends had 55m ropes and the second had to climb up to the ledge at the bottom to permit the leader to reach the better anchors (they started before we got down to explain the situation at the top).  Trying this route with 50m ropes would be truly annoying.

Regarding the vegetation at the top, it's generally a mix of oak and yew.  I don't think it's an ash dieback thing here.  That said, I have seen folks belaying off rather thin looking ash trees elsewhere but that's another story.

I used to be a London Boy but I am now happy to be in the local skivvy team.  I can't get there to help tomorrow afternoon until later but if someone were to point me in the right direction I would be available to take part in local access work.

@Cheese Monkey, please be aware that Avon Mountaineering Club are planning to meet there tomorrow evening.  I will point out that you want to work there and that folks should be wearing their helmets if they are climbing directly beneath you. 

They absolutely will not be able to climb directly beneath us or anywhere in the vicinity safely. Change venue please or this won’t get done. 

Absolutely - I am coordinating that evening with AMC and will make sure no one heads to left hand cliff. 

Cheers ta

The Don belay looks very bad. Wouldn’t recommend using it. It was far too overgrown to get near it though in the time we had. Will be replaced in future.

 
Removed the belay for Mercury which was also bad. Will be replaced in future. 

Sinew belay has had another bit of static added to a good holly.

The Fibre belay was dangerous and has been removed. There is a straightforward 3m traverse up and right over large but stable blocks to an obvious large yew tree.

Cheers

Cheers for the work I think half the Wye valley owes you a pint!

This is small fry compared to other Wye Valley work going on! Also today the BMC access rep was with me and put in the same amount of effort if not more and considerably more "behind the scenes" work as always.

Big up Julio and Ben!

Thanks so much for getting on this and sorting it out. 

Apologies for getting snippy above. Lost my temper then thought it was best just to not make things worse, so stopped looking at the thread. But was getting multiple messages about it from third parties…

Glad the situation as been improved - huge thanks to those who put in the time, effort and resources to make this happen 

As I tried to make clear in the above, we arrived at the crag fully intending to try and improve the situation. But what we were confronted with was far beyond what we could address given the tools we had. As I said in my OP, if I lived locally I would happily fix the issue myself. But I don’t. And I’m not going to drive 3 hours just to do that. 
Can I also point out that despite logbook comments going back 2-3 years about the parlous state of these belays, it is only now, after I’ve kicked up a fuss, that the situation has been dealt with? As Cheese Monkey notes above, the belays on The Don and Fibre were/are outright dangerous. 

I actually don’t want to live in London. I live here for work. I want to move. Comments about “London Boy” implying I just want others to do work i can’t be arsed with myself are, to say the least, ungenerous. I accept i was too curt with Graeme above, and that was unnecessary. But my motivation was to avoid anyone being unnecessarily killed. At the end of the day, I care more about stopping some (inexperienced? unlucky?) climber dying than the fine distinctions of “trad ethics”. It felt like the discussion here was being focused on some nit-picking about trad ethics when I was trying to avert a potential disaster. That is why I got annoyed. 

Put it another way: Fibre is a VS. A lot of VS climbers are relatively inexperienced (or maybe trying to act fast in a sudden downpour…). How would you feel if one of those VS climbers (and their partner?) died because the anchor failed…and you hadn’t done anything about it because the “spirit of adventure” associated with trad climbing meant you left that belay to rot even though you knew it was dodgy? 

To keep it short- if you or anyone wish to raise concerns like this privately please go here

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/list-of-bmc-access-reps

I think that might be exactly what you're saying, though? You're not going to drive 3 hours to fix it - why? 

Let's be honest, most people wouldn't drive over from London to fix it either - there's plenty of people who live far closer to crags who don't help maintain them (myself included at times, there's definitely more bolt fund days I could have made than I have made) - but let's also be honest, it's definitely won't, not can't. 

This is the kind of thing you might write in a stroppy letter to the phone company, where you're paying them to provide a service, but in a situation where everyone "dealing with" the problem is doing it unpaid in their own time it's hardly surprising you are taking some stick for your attitude...

I can't quite believe I'm the one being painted as the bad guy here, but this is the UKC forums so what the f*** did I expect. 

I very much doubt anyone sensible thinks you’re the bad guy Paul. I prefer to refrain from public climbing ethics debates for obvious reasons.
 

Please don’t feel put off from reporting anything similar in the future as you raising the issue has benefited everyone. 

I don't think there is any problem with what you were trying to say, the problem is with how you say it. I think you need to be a bit more self-aware when writing things on the internet, as it's not the first time you've rubbed people up the wrong way. You can come across as a bit self-important, reluctant to see things from other peoples views, and I'll admit I've read some of your comments on routes I've logged and thought you sound a bit of a knob.

I definitely wind people up as well, and I'm certain there's a lot of people that also think I'm a knob, but I don't want you to think that you're getting flack because you flagged something potentially dangerous at a crag and made an 'effort' to get it fixed. 

"I'd rather climb a VDif on a mountain than a V15 in a carpark. I WILL take ages packing gear up while you look on impatiently. Don't really like limestone much."

"London Boy"

Takes one to know one, I guess.