UKH

Over the past few years I have noticed an alarming increase in people top roping through in-situ glue in belays which has a detrimental effect on the permanent belays by wearing a Groove in them and obviously weakening them. There needs to be a public awareness of this for the future and I want to raise the issue publicly and also begun to raise funds to add maillons and ring bolts to numerous venues where this happens...Harpur Hill, Moss Rake and many more. If you would like to help me in this quest..which will cost in the region of £300+ you can donate on my website ar http//:Sportsclimbs.co.uk

in the meantime please consider the impact of this practice and consider the longevity of these facilities many of which have been placed by people out of their own pocket in my case for the benefit of others. Thank you in advance for you help on this matter Gary Gibson 

In my opinion a maillion with a ring on it is the best option as when the ring gets worn (generally a long time as they spin) the maillon can be undone and the ring removed and the maillion replaced if necessary. The problem is finding a quality stainless 316 ring. 

Also it should be pointed out to all those instructing on sports routes to teach top roping off quickdraws, i have two quick draws with screw gates on them for this very purpose.

Exactly what I am proposing 

Numerous 'instructors' in the Peak top rope through the gear. Some get quite stroppy if you point out that this is bad practice. I suspect that this section of the community, who make money from the input of others, contribute the least to bolt funds!

You get loads of Stainless 316 mooring rings for maritime use. Just pop them in a google search.

Already got one with gsproducts but the maritime ones are more expensive?

Been there and had that conversation too many times!

The former point is fair and it's a shame if people who do know better don't follow crag etiquette. The latter might be because (unless there has been some recent seismic change in the industry), the average outdoor instructor is getting by on a pretty minimal wage for the number of hours worked. The paltry pay for climbing instruction/session outdoors was one of the reasons I decided not to take it on as a career.

As an aside, I suspect that those maillons will end up responding better to an angle grinder than a spanner after years out in the elements!

Donated. Thanks Gary. 

With the donations I have received, I now have enough funds to add stainless Maillons and ring belays to all of Long Wall, The Sanctuary, individual routes like Cairn, the rest of College Buttress and a number of other sectors at Harpur Hill.

They're very likely to be very strong in practice; however, they're generally not certified specifically for climbing applications, and not all have been properly load-tested. 

And then have a break for Xmas 🤣🤣

All appreciated.

Great work Gary.  Much apprecaited

It's not just the Peak, Clwyd and North Wales limestone suffers badly from some instructors just top roping through the lower offs. 

Perhaps a few lower off stations at the base of the crag (out of the way of climbs, as at Horseshoe and Malham) would help instructors teach re-threading to clients at the cliff. Thus the last person can safely re-thread and prior ascents can be on the instructors kit, either back to back quickdraws and or screw gates on the anchor.  

Some of us are happy to nip up the routes as long as we have done a good job teaching belaying and get a few exercise points in at the end of the day!, if our clients aren't confident about re-threading anchors.

Any decent instructor will have a mobile board to take with them if they need one.

I do take umbrage with saying instructors are to blame for this. They aren’t. Crap instructors are.

Many of us have done some re-equipping too and this sometimes takes the form of CPD too to spread the word as AMI have done recently.

As someone who trains a lot of climbing instructors, I can safely say every single person coming through gets taught about why we don’t top rope through fixed gear. This is the same for anyone coming on a course with me, that has any exposure to sport stuff.

I’d go so far as to say most instructors have a positive effect on preserving fixed gear.

I'm just an average climber; I have no idea about instructors or their potential qualifications.

Are you suggesting that 'crap instructors' are somehow operating outside of any any official 'qualification' system?

Nope. What they do after they pass is up to them though. Usually it boils down to the laziness of not wanting to go back up to clean the lower off and if that’s the case they are pretty crappy instructors.

Name and shame?

That's interesting - and suggests that the qualification system you're referring to is basically worthless. What is it?

It’s no different to a doctor passing med school and then choosing to do something outside of good practice. Does that make med school worthless? No, and nor was I implying the MT schemes are worthless, far from it, I’m a massive fan.

It's completely different, both in the sophistication of the training and qualification, and in any sanctions applied for any subsequent malpractice.

If a medical Doctor behaves like an idiot, he/she will be struck off.

You still haven't clarified what qualifications you are referring to. What length of time or level of experience does it take to acquire them, whatever they are? Who sanctions them?

Well, my GP told me that men don't die from prostate cancer. Would she have been struck off if I'd complained? You're joking! Stick around long enough and you'll encounter lots of crap practice from lots of 'professionals' - medical, legal, financial, education...  Most of the time they get away with it.

Crap practice and malpractice are two different things. My GP didn't get as far as malpractice - e.g. me dying from prostate cancer. jezb1 is talking about crap practice, not malpractice. Knackering the lower offs - much as I detest it - is different to your clients dying when they shouldn't.

You must surely be aware that there is a range of qualifications and a range of ability/good/bad practice in instructors, coaches, guides, etc.

Mick

P.S. Perhaps should make clear that I have no personal axe in this. Am not an instructor of any kind and hold no climbing qualifications. Just don't like unfairness, i.e. instructors tarred with the same dirty brush.

Thank you for your very constructive comments, this is exactly why I have raised the point publicly 

Out of interest... did you use the crazy pigs tail things at Masson to try and limit top roping?

Always wondered why they were used instead of a typical arrangement?

Noticed those were getting some serious top rope hammer this year, some are starting to look a little old where they enter the rock too. The single anchor aspect always spring to mind when lowering from those. How deep do they go into the rock face?

Same here, on all counts.

That's why I was asking what exact qualification was being talked about in this case. It sounds pretty useless.

They are about 30cm deep and they were donated to me by Jim Titt and I won’t be placing any more as I have spent enough on gear there I’m sorry to say...I regeared the whole place with glue in bolts, with a little support from the BMC but had to buy all the glue out of my own fund...about £300-£400 myself as that wasn’t part of the arrangement which was the same at Smalldale and Blackwell Halt

Just bought £100 worth of kit for Harpur Hill and will report what I have equippas and when I have done it...thanks to everyone for the kind donations 

It’s annoying for us climbers who know it’s a problem, it must be a real wind up if you’ve spent time and money equipping routes! 
 

I suppose there needs to be more of a push at ALL levels to try and educate people. Instructors, indoor walls, books, guides, internet, and most of all us climbers! I don’t exactly love telling people why they shouldn’t TR through anchors, a lot of people almost  take offence and don’t really get it or think it’s just not their problem. If it were to become socially unacceptable then there would be more chance of people listening maybe? 
 

I don’t mean we need to go hunting people down but we really should try and explain to others why it’s a problem. We see it all the time, and normally the main perpetrators are the ones that are going to do the most damage eg continually falling, getting yarded up to the route. All it takes is a snap gate on the highest bolt (not possibly if it’s two staples) but even then beginners like the fact that they can just climb until the assisted dyno doesn’t work anymore, and can lower off without having to remove any kit. 
 

It might sound like I’m having a go at beginners, I know they’re not the only ones. I’ve not seen instructors doing it in the U.K. (they should know better) but I have seen it on the continent. The other group of people that do it are people with partners that want to have a go on a route that they think might be too difficult for them, so they take the gear out and it doesn’t matter if they don’t get that far/ can’t carry on. I’d go so far as to say a small group TR a route could put 10x the wear on a lower off compared to the last person stripping it. Just go to kalymnos, the anchors on some of the routes there (the snap gate and fixed style anchors are the worst) is horrendous 
 

Don’t do h’having a ‘break’ as I’m on a mission 

What Jez said.

Here's a link to Mountain Training's website - it explains more about the climbing awards and logbook/experience expectations, both pre training and during consolidation:

https://www.mountain-training.org/

RCI is pretty straight forward to get

RCDI is a big step up from that

MCI is a fully professional qualification, which was harder work than my degree - and I started working towards it after already climbing for 25 years

WMCI is the winter step up from the above and is even harder again

Then you have BMG (British Mountain Guide) at the top of the tree - basically a PhD and a lifetime of commitment

As an MCI or WMCI you are then eligible to join the Association of Mountaineering Instructors (AMI) - a professional representative association with all that entails, including a requirement for members to undertake regular CPD:

https://www.mountain-training.org/membership/ami/about-ami

Shame such a magnificent burocracy cannot stop some members abusing fixed equipment.

A step forward would be to introduce best practice guidance to guidebooks for sport climbing areas, like is included in the kalymnos guide. 

Any chance of UKC doing a sticky good practice article and promote the giving to the bolt fund?

I’ve had a really positive email exchange with Alan James on that and he agrees it is sensible idea and many thanks for your donation Robert

Great work Gary, as ever.

It's been a strange year with many indoor climbers turning to the outdoors for the first time. Old timers can forget how much of climbing culture and best practise we absorb and take for granted. Some newer folk simply don't know and might just need a gentle steer. Daft things like cleaning your shoes - you don't have to do that stepping off the wall mat. And always time for a reminder to be super respectful of damp sandstone. Onwards!

I think is going to publish one online in due course 

I did say some instructors - not all. I too teach every client not to top rope through lower offs. 

I have seen MIA’s top roping through lower offs, I am not naming names, but not everyone obeys good practise even AMI members. I am pretty sure these guys don’t contribute to bolt funds or re-equip crags either.

In my opinion having a portable training belay station isn’t anywhere near as realistic as having a purpose built station at the crag. I have used both and I know which I would prefer to use as a teaching aid and has better learning outcomes.

I have personally spent in the region of £1000.00 in bolts & resin, belays and hangers this year, not counting the fuel driving to the crag, time invested, drill bits and investment in equipment. This is why it is really important good practise is taught and followed by those who make their living from the outdoors.

I've seen MCI's (hasn't been MIA for a while as I guess you know) doing rubbish stuff too... It sounds like you have an axe to grind in that regard.

I too would like a nice station with various different lower off setups at crags, but it's not really going to happen is it? Re. learning outcomes, probably depends more on the instructor than the kit. A mobile board will normally have a variety of lower off types too.

It's a given that "it is really important good practise is taught and followed by those who make their living from the outdoors."

A Peak Area AMI bolting workshop re-equipped Enterprise Wall on the upper tier of Horseshoe this year and installed a practise belay station at the bottom of the crag. Those involved even got a CPD point.

Take your point about some instructors - but they are most definitely a small minority.

Well done on getting that area sorted out at Horseshoe, it was in pretty poor condition and well used by groups.

The thing that winds me up is instructors who take a group sport climbing and top rope through the belays all day long. If the same instructors gave up their own time to bolt the routes and paid for the resin and bolts then they would learn the benefit of putting some screw gates on whilst top roping.  I am sure they know its poor practise but as the bolts are there they just thread through them and their clients can get lots of climbing in without having to teach re-threading. 

Its great to have another lower off station at Horseshoe, I installed one at Malham and it only costs around £30 The BMC were actually talking about installing some via bolt funds at some popular indoor to outdoor venues.

If people are using the crags for work this isn’t much and they are really useful.

This year I have spent the best part of a grand out of my own pocket on equipping routes and belays and i have never claimed a bean back from a bolt fund. I have even contributed to them as well! That doesn’t count the fuel driving to the crag and days hanging on a rope when you could be climbing or working. That’s why it gets my goat when i arrive at say Trevor Rocks and find a bunch of belays worn through into a dangerous state with sharp edges, there is no need and its why Garys campaign to have maillions and rings on the belays is great.

Not directed at you , Ian , but as a suggestion to instructors, generally.

So, the climb you wish to instruct on has glue in bolt top station bolts and you dont want  any rethreading concerns.

Why not simply buy some climbing accredited maillons and rings?

Leave them on the top station bolts for the benefit of all climbers?

Which bit of HSQ is the Enterprise Wall?

Thanks

Totally agree Ian. I guess the majority of folk think of instructors as a generic group rather than volunteer, RCI, RCDI or MCI/WMCI.

I would suggest that the majority of groups bottom roping through anchor bolts multiple times are supervised by climbers new to outdoor climbing, unqualified club volunteers or inexperienced RCIs.

MCI/WMCI/Guides train RCIs so should be very aware of the issues around running ropes directly through anchor bolts - as a discussion around this topic forms part of RCI training/assessment.

At the risk of this post becoming longer than this thread, below is the text from an AMI SM post regarding bolting workshops, which hopefully will give those who were unaware an idea of the kind of things members get up to (thanks Jim!):

Association of Mountaineering Instructors and British Mountain Guides members attended a CPD bolting workshop last week in the Lake District delivered by Dan Robinson. 

It was a really useful day covering lots of practical skills and background knowledge. We looked at the different equipment, metals and methods used to place bolts, and how that may affect durability and strength. This helped gain a greater understanding of how to judge bolting and what information to pass on to others.
We then looked at the practical skills for placing safe and durable resin bolts, and put those skills in to practice. There is now a practice lower off at Scout Scar (Kendal), and a teaching area with a selection of practice lower offs and bolts at Blakestone Quarry, a weather proof cave near Hodge Close.
Hopefully these CPD days will help instructors and coaches to teach safe and high quality decision making around using bolts, and enable more AMI members to contribute to re-equipping and safely bolting in their local areas. Bolting in the area is supported by the Cumbria Bolt Fund - Page. Bolts are generally placed by volunteers, and you can contribute (financially or though giving time) to local bolt funds across the UK, and often at sport climbing holiday destinations too.

There are 4 more of these in March 2021.  1st, 2nd, 8th and 9th March in Lake District.

Gary, quick question that is more relevant to those establishing new routes, than retrofitting old ones. 

What is the additional cost of adding replaceable links or whatever to a route when it is first established compared to the cost of say 10 bolts and an anchor. I'm wondering if for new routes the use of replaceable lower off components should be seen as the norm. And possibly local clubs or individuals approached at the time of the bolting for the funds. 

For those who aren't aware AMI made a sizeable contribution (as did the BMC) to the bolting educational films recently produced by the Cumbria Bolt Fund. It's this sort of initiative that will educate and inform both bolters and users of sports routes in the future.

Replaceable=stealable.

Anywhere between about £7.00 and € 50.00 depending on what luxury level you want. And what the climbers accept as "normal".

With the amount of donations I have received I have bought enough maillons and rings to be able to equip the lower offs on the Sanctuary at Harpur Hill which I will do this coming weekend..the cost amounting to £105.

my next objective will be Long Wall at Harpur Hill which will cost about the same and then onto College Buttress and some othe areas..I will post when done

I have spent nearly £100 to equip around 10-11 routes with rings etc. To bolt or re-equip  the same amount of routes with glue in bolts and belays would cost around £400-£500. Just replacing the belays on ten routes would cost over £500 in itself but many of the new twin karabiner belays I have installed at Harpur Hill were donated to me but I had to buy the compatible stainless bolts which cost about £100 or just under. I hope that answers your query?

As a community we should have a plan "B" as the plan "A" will someday say sod it and move onto his plan "B".

It's what most people seem to call Top Quarry, you walk up the ramp/road on the left as you come into the quarry. Lots of diddy easier routes, it's not brilliant, but not a bad spot for beginners and so on. I've not heard it called Enterprise sector, although that might be just the one wall up there with Star Trek themed names. 

Thanks.

That makes sense.

I can't help thinking, that since is really well out of order, if a polite request and explanation as to why this is wrong is met with a refusal to rectify the matter, one should simply pull the ropes down.

Are you 6' 4" and 15 stone?

Unfortuntely not, 5' 8" and 11.5 stone. However, if everyone took that approach, the lower-offs would last much longer.

Going by Instagram we were up there not long after this work was done. I thought I was seeing things with the CBF tags on them (we live in Cumbria and went on a road trip!). It was our first go at sport climbing outdoors and the work looked top class, even got some use of the practice belay station too. Well done all involved, I hope it doesn't get trashed by people on TR.