Using skyhooks

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 JackM92 19 Nov 2018

Am looking at a few routes where skyhooks might be useful, has anyone got any reccomendations of a particular type/brand?

What considerations would you have when deciding which to buy?

 ianstevens 19 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

Stick them down with blue-tac and make sure they’re exetended as much as possible to prevent them lifting off. I’ve found all brands to be similarly good - aside from the three pronged offerings.

 oliwarlow 19 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

assuming this is for leaving as gear, rather than making progress?

In which case you are probably looking at a larger size such as the BD grappling hook.  Smaller ones and/or pointed ones are likely just to explode with a shock load.  For flakes something like the angle claw http://fishproducts.com/catalog/new_stuff.html

will be nice and stable.

like Ian says, stick/weigh it down with anything you have bluetac, duct tape, hang some hexes off it and extend a long way.

OP JackM92 19 Nov 2018
In reply to oliwarlow:

For a few routes I’m looking at headpointing on the slate. Just got no idea where to start with them as never used one and don’t know anyone who had.

 jkarran 19 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

I kept a BD grappling hook on my rack, it's good and strong as these things go and it'll hook over a decent flake or ledge. Long weighted sling on it, long extender clipped into that with freedom to move and it tended to stay put. Knotted sling with the ballast clipped in to the mid point does the same job. If it's insecure and you can work on it tie, tape, bluetack whatever to keep it in place but mine was mainly for onsighting hooking flakes and as a bail out option. I don't recall falling on it but I did end up belayed to it once or twice.

Jk

Post edited at 22:12
 ianstevens 19 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

Out of interest which routes?

 john arran 19 Nov 2018
In reply to jkarran:

> I kept a BD grappling hook on my rack... I don't recall falling on it but I did end up belayed to it once or twice.

Respect!

 

pasbury 19 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

> For a few routes I’m looking at headpointing on the slate. Just got no idea where to start with them as never used one and don’t know anyone who had.

I guess they have been used on slate (raped by affection?) But I really can’t see them as a sustainable form of protection for that type of rock. Surely a skyhook would tend to cleave off any flake they could be useful on?

I wouldn’t use them on slate, either go balls out or choose another route.

Post edited at 22:28
2
 Aly 20 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

I’ve tended the use a mix of the BD cliffhanger hook and the grappling hook, the latter is bigger and more useful.   Tie some tape through the end of them, or larkfoot a short sling through so you aren’t trying to clip them with a biner and levering then out.  Ideally equalize a few of them on the same ledge. 

 

Make sure theyre weighed down, or even better tensioned down slightly with a second rope.  You need to be careful with placements, I’ve not used them much on slate and avoid anything that might break flakes off if it was weighted, as others have said you don’t want to be damaging the rock. 

 Fiend 20 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

Tie them down, weight them down, blutack them in place, tape them to the rock.....and more importantly, work up to doing the routes onsight rather than spoiling the challenge and experience by cheating them.

21
 Michael Hood 20 Nov 2018
In reply to ianstevens:

Finale Wall Direct at Black Rocks has a chipped hold in the slab that you can put a skyhook on. Tension it down with the other end of the rope to a large friend behind the flake below.

You can also use a pair of "threaded through" wires to reach a wire placement before making the last hard move.

Anyone who thinks it's E3 isn't being inventive enough with their gear

Post edited at 09:12
 ianstevens 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Finale Wall Direct at Black Rocks has a chipped hold in the slab that you can put a skyhook on. Tension it down with the other end of the rope to a large friend behind the flake below.

> You can also use a pair of "threaded through" wires to reach a wire placement before making the last hard move.

> Anyone who thinks it's E3 isn't being inventive enough with their gear

Sounds excellent. I was mainly targeting my question at the OP though - I've done a few routes in the quarries that I've tamed using hooks so may have first-hand experience to share!

 ianstevens 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Fiend:

> Tie them down, weight them down, blutack them in place, tape them to the rock.....and more importantly, work up to doing the routes onsight rather than spoiling the challenge and experience by cheating them.

How is using marginal gear "cheating"? It's been stated they're being used as protection not for aiding. 

 john arran 20 Nov 2018
In reply to ianstevens:

I think he's suggesting that, because his preference is for trying routes onsight, any rehearsal prior to a lead should be considered by everyone as "spoiling the challenge" and "cheating".

OP JackM92 20 Nov 2018
In reply to ianstevens:

Scare city and My Halo. 

OP JackM92 20 Nov 2018
In reply to ianstevens:

Out of interest which routes have you found them useful on?

 ianstevens 20 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

Cool. FWIW I've given both a whirl on a top rope. On Scare City you've got a sling on the big spike and a couple of small cam slots, not really any hooks of which to speak. My Halo has a low hook that actually wouldn't stop a groundfall from the harder section, and of course an RP (I want to say 3). 

pasbury 20 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

Scare city is steepish and from what i remember has a sort of friable surface in places - a hook would be difficult to keep in place and almost certainly wouldnt hold anything.

I'm quite surprised anyone is contemplating using hooks on slate.

 Aly 20 Nov 2018
In reply to ianstevens:

I think you're right.  Just checked my old notes from climbing Scare City and it says "climb to the top of the bendy flake (sling) and possibly an indifferent skyhook placement".  I can't remember if I used the hook or not.  Then there's some small cams - above the crux but they do protect the final awkward sequence.

 

My Halo does have a hook placement which would sort of protect the awkward moves getting up to below the crux, but the skyhook makes the moves harder as you have to swap your feet on the small edge that now also has a skyhook on it.  These days I think you'd be better with a bouldering mat for those moves as they're not *that* far off the ground.  The wire is a sideways brass offset (HB 2).  I've seen it hold a fall, then subsequently fail to hold a second one...

Probably only worth E6 now as it's been retro-bolted, you don't have to traverse out to that peg in the hole, then do the top section wondering how rusty it really is.

OP JackM92 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Fiend:

It was a headpoint that made me realise I was capable of much more than I previously thought possibly, after climbing a grade (pre-practiced) it feels much less intimidating going for other routes at the same level onsight.

Currently after 4 shoulder dislocations (all during trad onsights) the situation is either sell all my gear and give up trad climbing alltogether, or switch to headpointing, checking routes for moves risky for the joint before committing to the lead.

Trad onsighting is by far my favourite style of climbing, and the only one I’ve been moderately good at, unfortunately it’s no longer realistic.

 galpinos 20 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

> Currently after 4 shoulder dislocations (all during trad onsights)

Is there no solution to your shoulder issues?

Totally off topic but after multiple dislocations, the last of which chipped both the head of the humerus and the glenoid - my shoulder would just fall out at times - I had a laterjet procedure done. Old school surgery but I have climbed without fear since then. I hope you manage to find a more long term solution.

 

 ianstevens 20 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

> Out of interest which routes have you found them useful on?

I definitely used one on Tentative Decisions (E5 6a), mainly to have my rope attached to something before the bolt, and think I may have put one on Poetry Pink (E5 6b), again for psychological benefit rather than of any practical use. Didn't fall on either. Placed them on other things to generally dick about (the start of Massambula (E2 5b)?), again, not used. 

Clearly I've had a look at the two routes you're thinking off hence my knowledge of the kit - not done either yet though! I think well placed hooks do have some merit on the slate - there are a prevalence of small edges with a little bit of an incut that makes the hook stay so much better. Placing them on friable looking holds is of course dumb, but I see no reason why they wouldn't work so long as they stayed on! 

pasbury 20 Nov 2018
In reply to ianstevens:

I think if it became more general practice to use hooks on the bold routes in Bus Stop or the Dervish slab or the Rainbow then:

a) they'd get trashed and

b) people would discover how hard the ground is

I can imagine a fully equalised nest of hooks here and there might just be OK but what a faff!

Post edited at 16:33
 RM199 20 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

Plus one for using another rope for tensioning. I did an excellent E2 4c in Charnwood Quarry in leistershire protected by 1 wire and 3 hooks over a 40m slab. I tied the first hook down to a rucksack of rocks at floor level, and the route almost felt safe.

pasbury 20 Nov 2018
In reply to RM199:

Pro tip - it wasn’t

Post edited at 19:46
 ianstevens 20 Nov 2018
In reply to pasbury:

> I think if it became more general practice to use hooks on the bold routes in Bus Stop or the Dervish slab or the Rainbow then:

> a) they'd get trashed and

> b) people would discover how hard the ground is

> I can imagine a fully equalised nest of hooks here and there might just be OK but what a faff!

I should make it clear that I’m not proposing hooks should be employed all over the shop and lobbed on to. Personally, I’ve placed them when I’m >95% certain I’m not going to fall on them, but am of course concerned about the remaining proportion.

In terms of them ripping off, you seem convinced they’ll either come off or rip all the small flakes off. I’m not sold on this - a well placed hook on good rock will do something - and that comes down to a discerning placement.

Edit: why so anti-skyhook? Bad experience? 

Post edited at 19:55
OP JackM92 20 Nov 2018
In reply to galpinos:

I’ll see what the consultant says on Friday...

It’s possibly not as bad as yours sounded from the post, bouldering and sport are fine as can just let go at any point. Trad however makes you cling on that bit longer!

pasbury 20 Nov 2018
In reply to ianstevens:

Not anti - in fact never used one except for playing around with a selection of someone else's in Yosemite as aid practice.

It's a bit like the cams on expanding flakes issue on gritstone. Don't use pro that's very likely to be destructive on one shot.

4
 Misha 21 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

You can get a skyhook in the porthole on Right Wall but it needs plenty of extension as the ropes wiggling around can easily knock it off. No idea if it would hold. An upside down offset just before the porthole is a better bet but every little bit helps... Don’t think most people bother though!

The guide book recommends a sky hook for Cruel Sister and indeed you can place it but it’s not that reassuring (are they ever?) and not essential anyway.

Don’t recall any obvious hooking opportunities on Poetry Pink, at least not anywhere crucial, but didn’t have one with me so wasn’t looking out. There are some edges may be possible but you’d obviously want an incut edge.

Pity about the shoulder...

 

 Aly 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Misha:

> You can get a skyhook in the porthole on Right Wall but it needs plenty of extension as the ropes wiggling around can easily knock it off.

 

There is a good rock 8 just before the porthole which is surely better than a skyhook?  Kudos if you hung around there and fiddled one in though!! 

 

 Michael Gordon 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Misha:

> The guide book recommends a sky hook for Cruel Sister and indeed you can place it but it’s not that reassuring (are they ever?) and not essential anyway.>

Pavey Ark?

 galpinos 21 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

> I’ll see what the consultant says on Friday...

Good luck. Hopefully he has a good plan for you.

Again an aside but I was fortunate that I was living in France at the time and was operated on in Sallanches. The first question the consultant asked was what sports did I do and what did I want/need the shoulder to do post surgery. It might be worth making sure the consultant knows what is important to you as that may affect what options he proposes. 

 

 Misha 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Aly:

I don’t recall a rock 8 but have fiddled in an (ok at best) upside down offset a couple of times...

 Misha 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Yes

 Michael Gordon 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Misha:

I'm surprised! Hadn't occurred to me anyone would use a skyhook on an E3.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Really?  I used one on the E3 Soldier Ant in Lawrencefield, an E1 on Clwyd Limestone and several on some chossy E2 in Vivian Quarry.  These were all routes I'd expected to need one (or more).  I suspect if you carried one on your rack as standard you'd find loads of places where they could be used. 

 Michael Gordon 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Somerset swede basher:

I guess I regard them as so marginal that when there's nothing else to be found you just don't fall off. Certainly never met anyone who carried them on their rack as standard.

 ianstevens 21 Nov 2018
In reply to pasbury:

> Not anti - in fact never used one except for playing around with a selection of someone else's in Yosemite as aid practice.

> It's a bit like the cams on expanding flakes issue on gritstone. Don't use pro that's very likely to be destructive on one shot.

Well yeah - hence the need for a good placement!

 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Finale Wall Direct at Black Rocks has a chipped hold in the slab that you can put a skyhook on. Tension it down with the other end of the rope to a large friend behind the flake below.

> You can also use a pair of "threaded through" wires to reach a wire placement before making the last hard move.

> Anyone who thinks it's E3 isn't being inventive enough with their gear


I might be misremembering but when I first did that it was HVS!

Chris

 Michael Hood 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Chris Craggs:

The left variant on Finale Wall Curtain Call (E2 5b) has been given HVS and E1 in various guides. Skyhook would be on route for that but the extended wires would be off route.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

For me it depends where I'm climbing. If I'm out in the Peak I never carry them unless I specifically know a route needs it. I do tend to take them in North Wales, though that might be as I've done less there and knowing I've got more options gives me confidence. I almost always take one on slate. The nature of many of the routes I've done, I. E. Slabby with hard finger or techy moves between good rests gives you opportunity to fiddle them in and faff with weighting down. 

 Michael Gordon 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Somerset swede basher:

> The nature of many of the routes I've done, I. E. Slabby with hard finger or techy moves between good rests gives you opportunity to fiddle them in and faff with weighting down. 

OK fair enough. I guess that does make sense. 

Phizzers 30 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

The old Chouinard hook used to be my old favourite for 30 years, it held 3 major lobs of over 10' and it saved my skin numerous times when I was pumped out - which used to be frequently!

I now use the 3 printer job, it seems more stable and less likely to rotate, but I've not checked it out for real.

The best skyhook runner is on the crux of Dow Jones Index on Dow crag - a perfect hole right next to the bold 6a move. 

 aln 30 Nov 2018
In reply to JackM92:

I always thought you hung buckets of blue steam on them.


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