UKH

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/latest_ascents.php?sorting=0

Do you really not get it yet?

Really?

You're being asked to do ONE thing - stay home unless absolutely necessary. 

There's now a bazillion clips from doctors and nurses beseeching you, begging you, pleading with you, to follow the guidance.

It's a minor inconvenience for you.  And you're not doing it for you (probably), you're doing it for someone else - or their mum, dad, sister, etc.

STOP pretending that you are not causing an issue.  Sure - it might not be you that passes it on, but for every ten folk like you, one will do so.  And the consequence of that is that someone else is put at grave risk.

Do some press ups, drink some tea, write a letter, weed the garden, even watch some crap on TV.  But don't go to (previously) public places unless you have a damned good reason.  Don't.  No excuses.  Don't be that person.

I do agree with your point, but to play devil's advocate, a lot of resources online are confusing:

https://www.facebook.com/scottishmountainrescue/posts/2805526199484854

https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk

We need to get the communication right as it's all over the place right now. 

Ok disliker, come and front up your argument.

Yes, I'm cross.  You'd better be sharp.

What's all over the place is "facebook" and "walkhighlands".  The Gov sources are blindingly clear.

"You can also go for a walk or exercise outdoors if you stay more than 2 metres from others."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-guidance-on-social-dist...

P.S. I am not making a comment on whether or not the government advice is correct - only pointing out that it is not exactly 'blindingly clear'.

I'll keep playing the devil's advocate, but Facebook and Walkhighlands are going to be websites a lot of people frequent and can perceive that communication as advice from both MR and Walkhighlands. I have visited Gov websites (both UK and Scottish), but they are tough to navigate and not everyone has a will to do so. 

Gov sources say you should stay at home, but exercise is fine. BoJo also said today:

Just to be clear, I do agree with your points and already decided against running near The Cobbler today. I also upvoted OP before posting. I am just saying we are all in this together and people need to be informed in a concise manner. 

It wasn’t me, but simple answer. I can easily go for a walk without interacting with a single person. I can go bouldering without interacting with a single person, cleaning my hands with soap before and after trying the problem. 

Please explain to me how I pass the virus (which I don’t have) on by doing this?

How do you know you don't have it?

You're being asked not to spread the virus.  Usual method of spreading it involve moving around _and_ meeting people.  Going climbing may involve moving around but may not involve meeting people.  What bit of this have you misunderstood?

Same as everyone else in their position.  They’re special.

Very few can do as you say without traveling some distance, usually by car. What about petrol stations?

The obvious feature of covid-19 is that no one understands it's strong transmissivity. Are you so arrogant as to insist you know for a fact that you won't spread it? Along with the thousands of selfish bastards who have been out all over the hills today? Snowdonia, Highlands anyone? People are dying in Italy by the hundreds today. I've been going to the British Hills for the best part of 50 years, but I am ashamed to part of this community today.

I am with you on this. I do understand the need for fresh air & movement, and a Hubei style hard lockdown isn’t sustainable indefinitely, but am shocked and disgusted at the number of people who apparently think their hobby is more important than people‘s lives

Thank you for the support. If anyone is reading this who went out to the hills today, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Apparently someone in Snowdonia national park said something along the lines of it was the busiest day ever here. Well as a local I can certainly say it wasn’t. You’ve now got vigilante locals vandalising people’s cars and blocking car parks with signs which are in public order offences in there own right (not including the criminal damage to someone’s van)

Tbh if everyone calmed down- including you then the whole situation would be much more tolerable. 
 

On a weekend like this I would much rather people out and about rather than stuck at home being victims of DV, trapped in dingy flats with neighbours from hell or have poor children stuck watching tv all day. Yes there have been some idiots about but on the whole all I’ve seen is people being pretty sensible and sensitive will the large exception of the very vocal ‘self isolater’ shouting all over social media about the idiots outside. 

Very mixed messages then, I haven't seen any government advice saying you can't go out to exercise, and this BBC story (2 hours old) refers to public health England saying it's fine as long as you maintain 2 meters separation.

I went out for a bike ride today for 2 hrs, didn't come within 2 meters of anyone else didn't get off my bike or touch any other surfaces.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51506729

In reply to DT:

He is being socially responsible by pointing out to people, like you, that STILL can't grasp the issue at hand, that they are part of the problem.

You are wilfully (mis-)interpreting the current (admittedly haphazard) guidelines to suit your own aims when what you should be doing is, to miss-quote our inept leader, "take it on the chin" and STAY AT HOME.

Unfortunately, many people, like you, are going to have to get used to people like Deadeye, me, and many, many others, being forced into taking this tone because you can't get it through your tiny mind that you, yes YOU, are the one being obnoxious.

Have you seen the news from places like Italy? We are 2 weeks behind them, if that. A friend of mine is a cardiologist - they have capacity for 4x the usual number of admissions at her hospital, are expecting 8x and bracing for the train to hit sometime next week.

The advice is very clear, travel only if it is essential.

I am amazed by the people who disregard this advice then try and justify their actions by claiming there is ambiguity in the advice.

The PM talked about us being a sensible adult democracy who will do the right and responsible thing, he clearly misjudged a large proportion of the population.

So it looks like sterner measures will be taken, maybe a financial penalty is needed to make people stay at home.

I'm in the Highlands and it's been rammed yesterday and today. I have family in Snowdonia and they said it was busy; I've seen photos of cars parked miles down Gwynant and Ogwen. You may prefer to see people outside, but you are saying you have no care for your countrymen and women.

Thanks for the link,

I found the table summary at the end a lot clearer than most reports on TV and various other government announcements.

Noted it was last updated two days ago, let's see what the next update brings, it can only get more stringent over the next few weeks.

People are rightly angry at people that are so far up their own selves that they are not prepared to stay at home for a few weeks to prevent thousands of deaths.

By all means go out and get some fresh air.

DON'T drive 2+ hours across the country to get it!

I don't see how that is difficult to grasp.

In reply to DT:

Do you see the contradiction in your post?

I’m all for people hammering this message home.  We gave up all leisure travel and dining two weeks ago and childcare early last week.  It’s hammering our time.  We’re working from home as much as possible.  I have a family to look after and a new business to see through this.  My only contact beyond family is to support the family and business - and both are absolutely minimal.

The more contact and travel people have for leisure, the sooner a temporary police state or martial law will lock us all down and make it even harder for me to look after my family. 

I think you just did.

Very quick reply, as its getting late on sunday night and I've had hours of phone conferences with various organisations, doctors, government depts, National Parks, BBC, NHS etc. 

There's been a lot of talk about justifying or validating why we can still travel and go climbing or hill-walking "safely" within our capabilities and that somehow, we can do this without affecting anyone else. or impacting spread of the virus.  The simple fact is - we can't - so please stop now! 

BMC will tomorrow come out with an amended statement about getting outdoors.  

In simple terms it will be along the lines of -  Don't travel unless essential; Stay at home (home being were you normally live!); keep social distance of at least 2 meters; Exercise, but very locally to your own home only; Avoid all but essential contact with anyone. If some of this sound familiar it's because it's the same message for everyone.  Climbers are not a special case. 

We will be saying avoid any activity with any risk of putting burden on medical services.   Essential travel is to buy food, for essential workers, for medical supplies. Climbing is not essential activity. (I would never in a million years think i'd ever say that). 

Mtn Rescue cover in the UK will be either withdrawn totally in some areas or at best be severely and drastically reduced by tomorrow night. Many popular mtn areas will be closed down. 

This shit really is getting real - I've spent over 35 years in various professional roles passionately defending the rights of the individual to go outdoors, to take risks,  to have the freedoms to do the activities we love. This time i'm saying bluntly and loudly -just don't! Stay home. Too many very experienced medical professionals I know and respect (who are also climbers) are shitting themselves. We all owe it to everyone else to everything we can to help or at least delay the spread of this disaster. Thousands of lives are at stake. Please put climbing, mountaineering and hill-walking on hold until it's safe to do so.....and i promise if I survive this thing ('cos there's no guarantee I will and many of us won't!) I'll be the first in line demanding to get better and improved access in the future...

Elfyn Jones

BMC Access & Conservation Officer (Wales)

The people who are breaching the guidelines aren't all doing it because they can't grasp the situation: many understand the gravity of it well enough but show so little concern for the fate of their fellow men that they put their own selfish need for enjoyment before everything else  and in doing so give a massive "f*ck you" to the rest of society. There's no way to reason with people like this, as you can see from this thread. Enforcement is inevitable and the blame for that lies with these egocentric individuals.

I'd feel like a right dick if I'd been out climbing today and then saw that!

I've been crossing swords with lots of people on here and I get where you're coming from, I do. People are worried, scared, confused, just not getting it. Time to cut some slack maybe? World's just got shittier. 

Where have you seen vandalism to vehicles?

I climbed today and both venues I went to were packed. Haven’t seen Avon gorge as busy as I did today. 
 

Ive just cancelled our climb tomorrow. Sorry but I have found it hard to see the sun shining and not immediately need to climb. I also do not really listen to the government much. However reading Elfins statement, someone I very much respect, I will be refraining for the foreseeable future. 
 

Best post on UKC today. Well said. Thank you and good luck.

Outstanding - you've been able to double your risk of contracting/spreading the virus. Hope you're proud of that.

Finally, it's getting through - to some, at least.

Remember you are also at liberty to use your own brain.

Social media. Apparently someone wrote on a van parked Porth Dafach. Something along the lines of ‘please f&£k off home’. 

Hang your head in shame. You're no saint for cancelling tomorrow either - that's just too little, too late.

" . . . immediately NEED to climb."?? Nobody NEEDS to climb - has no-one taught you that "want" is not synonymous with "need"? You don't have to listen to government advice (which thus far in my opinion is also too little too late) - you just have to take note of what's happening in the European countries ahead of us in this and in the light of that your decision is made for you - do not travel as this risks not only carrying with you the disease you don't yet know you have, but it also puts you at risk of an injury which will take the time of health workers - time they do not have - as will climbing, bouldering, running, cycling, almost anything except a gentle walk in the nearest countryside to your home.

Cancelling tomorrow's plans is better than going ahead with climbing instead. 

Some of us, including myself, misunderstood the advice and didn't appreciate what damage we are doing to the society. I was an idiot on Saturday. I realised my mistake and called off plans to get out of the city I had for Sunday.

Let's not call everyone names now, let's educate instead. It's the only way we can be productive and get something done.

When I've thought about climbing during this situation, and I don't climb that much anymore honestly, I've thought about how you manage a rack.  I use my mouth to hold gear all the time when I climb.  Do you use one rack for you and one rack for them?  It's madness to think it's a good idea to go on doing this for that reason alone surely?

If I could walk or bike from my house to some unfrequented boulders then I think I'd have a hard time not going...hang on I can...but the BMC says don't do it.

Just please don't someone tell me I can't get on my bike, surely they won't come for my bike?  Surely? *whimper*

I couldn't agree more. As my postscript already stated, I wasn't saying I agree with the government advice, only what it actually says.

It's all got pretty toxic on here. People's brains are boiling over. I'm sure it's the same most places on the internet, which makes the prospect of the coming weeks stuck inside all the more depressing. Respect to those who are managing to express themselves with some civility while getting their points across. 

Some of the replies in here almost make me want to go out climbing again just to piss them off for being such pricks (like when someone said you can’t shit in the woods so I doubled my rate of woods pooing) that’s not how you get things across to people. Look at Elfins statement and how it’s had an effect on the readers then look at your own statements and consider that everyone reading it who’s minds were yet undecided just thinks you’re an arsehole. 

For what it's worth I don't think Pasbury would have said what they said if they'd read everything that you've posted. I know we disagreed on outlook initially but you've kept it polite and have reflected on the situation. That's to you credit. 

Meanwhile someone on another thread posts

...which is getting to proper don't-scroll-down YouTube level, and persuades no one of anything.

Try and stay calm, there's lots of angry people on here, try not to be one of them. Unfortunately, angry people get angry responses. It's because this is the biggest external threat any of us will ever have experienced and that realisation has got through to some of us before others.

Shame you went climbing on Sunday, well done for changing your mind for the future. Kudos for coming on here and admitting it.

Stay well.

Yeah, it's not great. I'm desperately trying to stay magnanimous and believe that a lot of this is coming from a place of fear. Doesn't excuse it. 

Donotello, what Michael said. You've reflected and now taken a considered position. It's the right choice. Fair play to you. 

Stay sane. 

It's a rather bizarre attitude anyway. We have laws against murdering people only for the very tiny minority who might want to kill someone. With a population of 70m there will never be agreement on everything.

I also think there are mixed messages and deciding what the right and responsible thing to do is not clear and open to interpretation. Even the government is unsure what to do and is changing it's mind on a regular basis. So it's not surprising that people are behaving in different ways.

Mountain rescue are saying today:

"if you are going out you should walk, climb or cycle within your capabilities so you can keep yourself safe and not need us"

I'm okay with that, like I've said on other threads, maybe not time to go do some sketchy on your limit on sights of bold trad routes up choss but a normal day out climbing etc without going too mad presents minimal risk to anyone, walking and cycling even less so.

To be honest I'm quite happy to partake in activities I deem to be low risk on the assumption mountain rescue don't exist, if I break my legs that is my problem. Mean if all mountain rescue services ceased in normal times to you think outdoor sports would become extinct? 

Although I doubt they would, I could understand if a rescue person didn't want to come out due to infection risk, it's their choice.

Of course I'm very glad mountain rescue do exist and they provide a great service to us all. However even if every single mountain rescue team member in the country got the virus due to call outs from infected people, in terms of additional NHS strain it's a drop in the ocean. 

I see no justification to stop outdoor sports provided you're sensible about it. Keep the risk down relative to your abilities, don't go to areas which are busy the whole point is to stay isolated, and don't climb in groups, climb either on your own (bouldering etc) or with people you already have contact with such as partners or regular work colleagues to minimise infection spread. 

I take your point and it is a good one as the weekend just gone has proved.

Yes if you can go for a walk or a cycle ride without interacting with people (ie less than, I'll be generous and say 10 metres) then that is fine. Some people can do this. They live out in the countryside, they live on the edge of towns etc.

What is not sensible is getting in your car and driving to a known honeypot and expecting to keep clear of people. Even places normally quiet can be busy so if you drive 30 odd miles and the car park is full it would be sensible to turn around and go elsewhere. If you stay at home that isn't a problem. Another problem is getting to a nice open space may necessitate going along a narrow path and passing close by to people, touching hand rails or door handles on toilets or parking meters.

To keep things in perspective I saw far more people on a food hit on Tescos at 6.30 this morning than I did cycling locally round the roads on Saturday

Having said that I am no longer heading to the hills simply because that makes me one less person to add to the clutter. I take the view that Snowdon probably sees very few people midweek but if every thinks hey let's go to Snowdon I'll be quiet then you have the same chaos as bank holiday footfall. And that is a good reason for staying away

That might be the case if every MRT member lived in an isolated cell or was not, amongst other occupations, Nurse, Paramedic, GP, GP Practice Manager, Care Worker. That is not the case. 

I don't know what the situation is further south but in the Highlands a call out involves people coming from communities over a massive area, mixing together in close proximity and then returning to those often fragile and under resourced communities. That mixing is best avoided. 

The BMC are apparently about to release a statement saying don't go climbing. It's on another thread which I believe you've seen. Along with your views on too many people on the planet and how this virus could be a remedy, you've now just publicly stated you're going to possibly flout this advice.

You'll do what you want, that's your choice but I'd reconsider stating it publicly. If you must climb, do it. Please don't advertise it or make it your cause. 

My wife is off to work. She works neuro-rehab. They've managed to clear some space in terms of beds and she's now being tasked with other duties in anticipation of more cases. Those beds that have been cleared are often taken up with patients who have suffered head injury. More than you'd think in terms of climbers and cyclists, maybe a drop in your ocean but not hers. But please, there are many like her some of whom are forum users, don't dismiss the impact on them so flippantly. 

And if you were to break your leg it might be tough luck. Decent people though would end up doing the decent thing and come out to help you. It's the decent thing to do. Everybody thinks they're the exception. They aren't.

Stay safe. 

I don't think you've totally got it yet. What you say sounds reasonable and if you could guarantee that everyone (not just most people but EVERYONE) behaved similarly then what you say would most likely be ok.

But, for everyone who behaves as you are suggesting, there will be someone who doesn't. And the consequences of that are simply lots more people dying. The downside is that we cannot rely on correct or sufficient individual responses so only blanket restrictions will work for the good of our society. This means that those of us who's behaviour would have been sufficiently ok get penalised for the stupidity of others. It's not nice, tough.

The other thing that happens is that what is considered ok changes. Your proposed behaviour was ok a while ago. Now it's not.

Please change. Stay well.

If you did break your ankle bouldering, say, what would you do then? Ok maybe you drag yourself and hobble back to the car. Then what? Go home and set it by yourself?

My cousin is a senior nurse in a paediatric ICU in a big London hospital, she's also home now with suspected covid19 along with all her family. The hospital is on the edge anyway and it's losing experienced  staff to possible infection. And that's London where they have a lot of capacity. How many trained ICU staff are there in Cumbria? How many beds do they have? Do you want to go into A&E with a bust up ankle now? What are your chances of then catching the virus there? Are your parents or grandparents in the high risk group? Mine certainly are...

Unless we do something different to Italy we are going to have Italian death numbers of hundreds a day soon. Please do what you can to avoid that.

Just to be clear I don't have the virus* and thus present no risk of infecting anyone. 

*Yes you can never be 100% sure and I might have just picked it up and not shown symptoms yet, but it's unlikely given we've had minimal contact with people for a couple of weeks now. 

I take the point about mountain rescue teams being made up of several people coming together form different households which does present a social distancing problem. Maybe they should offer a reduced service, only coming out for genuine threats to life or sending smaller teams/individuals for minor call-outs. Ethical minefield of course, would more people die from that than from the increased risk of infection to MR members and families, probably actually. But on the other hand maybe it'll make people think twice about going out in the first place.

To Stuart, 

Obviously we have a different view on the whole general thing, I've noticed you don't have a logbook, do you just not keep one or do you no longer climb anyway?  If you were still in the middle of your active climbing phase maybe your view would be slightly less hardline. 

I've no desire to make this my cause, I won't be doing whatever I like, I'll be doing what I can justify to myself in terms of risk of infection Vs quality of life in my individual circumstances. Let's remember although I'm not in an "at risk" group I've no desire to get Corona virus, we practice good social distancing, I work from home anyway, and now so does my wife, the only places we go that have people close by is the supermarket because we need to get food, I deem that as the most likely infection point for me at the moment. If I were to get it, then I would go into full lockdown as I think we have a moral duty not to spread it, however we can take our own risks on catching it.

Well done everybody walking and climbing in their droves at the weekend...this is pushing Boris into a nationwide lock-down for everybody, due to peoples inability to listen and take advice.

I thought climbers as a collective were better then this, obviously not....

I was seriously considering going climbing yesterday, it would have been the third time I had touched rock since July due to a serious mountain biking injury. I really did want to go climbing but came to the conclusion that it was socially irresponsible. The world absolutely has got more frightening and confusing than before, that's why we need to think very carefully about the choices which we are making.

I am going to lock this one. If you are in doubt about whether not go climbing or not then please read Elfyn’s excellent post.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/um__folks__we_need_to_talk_about...

Alan