UKH

Climbed what used to be a trad HVS 5b yesterday, which is now considered a reasonably tough 6b+, and just wondering what other retro bolted routes have had a notable grade increase? I see how bold trad may become low grade sport when bolted, but presumably this example either means it was under graded previously, or it's over graded now. Doesn't matter .... Just musing. 

Would be nice to know which route this is about. Likely I suspect to be gross under-grading when it was trad (there's a few about at HVS 5b) or the route has changed - eg holds fallen off or revised line.

Martin

Flake Out at Giggleswick South. 

Interested in the quick dislike of my musings and wondering what that means; at a guess someone who disaproves of retro bolting?

As a rule of Thumb I normally add 2 grades between british technical and sport grades but a sandbag maybe a half to a whole grade harder:

HS 4b = ~sport F5a (maybe F5b)

VS 4c = ~sport F5b (maybe F5c)

HVS 5a = ~ sport F5c (maybe F6a)

E1 5b = ~ sport F6a/6a+ (maybe F6b)

I've no idea if this is the case with the route you mention but sometimes when a trad route is retro-bolted the line  is straightened out resulting in a genuine grade difference. 

it's ok mate I've just given you a couple of likes and I have no interest in sport climbing at all

I think it’s mostly just Giggleswick. There’s loads of retrobolted routes which would have been hard and scary trad leads

So you think perhaps just very undergraded when trad. I think you may be right. Much of the trad I did in that area felt quite tough. 

Supercalorific at Churston was E3, 5c but now sport at  6a+. So a decrease in grade?

Those grades strike me as being very high for the sport routes, a bolted HVS 5a would be about 5 and an E1 5b about 5+.

Chris

Then why do the semi-bolted sport 5+'s in say, somewhere like the Costa Blanca get VS-HVS and 6a+ to 6b is considered E1?

Pretty sure all the 5+ routes on the Penon with 1 bolt in 30m get VS?

True, but on this occasion it is the same line, a very obvious groove line with harder routes to either side. 

This seems more understandable, as a short section of bolted 5c could well be 6a+  but have been E3 if not too well protected, not that I know the route you mention. 

Never seen 6a+ though, 6b/6b+ IMO and utterly fantastic. It’s a shame it’s not more well known, the best easy sport route in Devon (at least!) 

I was thinking the same. Don't know the route in question, but a uk 5c move on a cruxy 6a+ is entirely possible.

Rockfax seem to disagree

https://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades/

I think the Rockfax table compares climbing a trad route to climbing a sport route and tries to equate the 'difficulty' of the ascent. In my mind (!) that isn't quite the same as giving a sport grade to a trad route as if it were bolted.

e.g. Three Pebble Slab (HVS/E1 5a) would only be about 4+/5 with three or four bolts in it, Great Slab (E3 5b) would be about 5+ under the same circumstances,

Chris

What do you think Gaia would be if someone were to go and retro bolt it then?

Just asking out of interest, obviously, fear not trad crowd!

Would only need one bolt

And if judiciously placed could also be clipped for the direct finish (Harder Faster?).

Those that want the bold experience could just get a mate to ab down and tape over the bolt.

Yeah good shout, I'll go drill one in at the weekend then

Havn't got a clue - I wasn't proposing bolting any of thee routes either before anyone has any ideas.

Chris

What grade do you think Hairless Heart would be in this parallel universe?  Perhaps Great Slab would be a little tough at 5+?

http://gritlist.wikifoundry.com/page/E8+Peak+District

suggests 7b+

Great Slab - I'm not sure, imagine how easy that precarious little foot-change would feel with a bolt in front of your nose.

Hairless Heart - 6a/6a+, maybe 6b/6b+ if you started up Artless?

As another example, and going back a few years, when we did The Axe on Cloggy (E4 6a) me and Parky both agreed as a sport route it would be 6a+ - although the usual suggested sport grade for an E4 is about 6c.

Chris

Thanks that's interesting!  Surprised that it's as high as that, but difficult to tell just how sloping and poor the holds on the uppers section are from seeing vids and pictures.  Looks bloody scary all the same. 

Edit:  I just rewatched Honnold's onsight.  Not surprised it's as high as that.  Looks very hard. 

I think we should take a leaf out of Joe Brown's book and only allow 2 bolts per pitch. Of course only having one bolt is ok as well

Is this a joke about polished easier sports climbs drifting into sandbag grades as a result Chris? How on earth is classic UK trad E4 6a climbing ever going to anything like as low as sensibly graded  F6a+ or worse still Hairless Heart a hard F6a? If you are serious I'd bet a sizable amount for someone who is a F6b leader agreeing with you to try and prove it on a trad vs sport toprope test using your own Rockfax grades (and away from trad Classics so they don't get trashed by the almost inevitable resultant dogging).

Just checked and the gritlist also has Hairless Heart as F6a... elitist madness grading. F6a's are normally graded for flash attempts and even as a redpoint the crux groove remains hard and sketchy unless you can reach over it (when its no longer really an E5).

It seems a bit strange to use exceptionally bold climbs as examples for more general comparisons between trad and sport grades.

I get that bold climbs are more likely to be retro-bolted (although not those grit slabs) but the skills required to climb an "OMG don't f#*'*#g fall" trad route and a sport route of the same technical difficulty are so different it just seems likely to distort the debate.

What's the sport grade for say Brant Direct (HVS 5a)? or maybe Great North Road (HVS 5a) if we want it Grit centric? An even better route for comparison might be something middle of the grade with middle of the road gear and on limestone like Padme (HVS 5a) at Stoney. I struggle to imagine it getting less than 5+.

I would not have thought that anyone did that, if they do they are missing the point.  The only valid correlation is a technical grade only comparison when climbed on a top rope.

Al

I think Chris was comparing the top-rope difficulty. My issue was more with using exceptionally bold routes as examples of a grade when responding to a post by Simon about general comparisons between grades. Obviously a bold HVS will = a lower sport/ TR grade than a well protected one.

Hairless Heart - 6a/6a+

Wow! Perhaps it's a style thing then but it seemed way harder than that to me.. I don't climb grit a lot though. 

Apologies, I misunderstood and may have come across as a little patronising.

Al

Well my first post sort of missed what I was aiming for and I get your point.

Haven’t climbed a huge number of E4’s but never come across anything as easy as f6a+ physical difficulty. If the Axe is that easy I’ll go and solo it when it’s dry...

I think the Rockfax chart is right in terms of physical difficulty...... if you compare the French grade with an 'averagely' protected trad route, as the chart indicates. If I'm climbing well I can onsight F6c but not an 'averagely' protected E4, as there'll be scary bits I can't handle. Go to a safe E4 and I won't be able to climb it!

Its just nonsense... really good slab climbers guessing what the route feels as opposed to mortals trying very hard at or near our limits. I know sport slab grades tend to be much meaner than vertical or overhanging rock anyhow but  this is an exaggeration on that exaggeration (unless comparing against old polished French horror-show sandbags). I was a good slab climber (I bouldered out the start of Sex Dwarfs around that time ) when I tried it TR in good cold conditions in my ethically uneducated youth and fell a few times before success,  and when I fell again before success when seconding in good conditions some years later. Success came from the same method as when I fell... it is sketchy.

So presumably having had such a hard time on it you disagree with the given grade of 5c?

Chris

Not sure I would recommend that, the start is often greasy and some the things you have to pull on feel a bit temporary! Plus it is a very long way off the ground.

Chris

No I'd say its tough UK tech 5c. I just think an equivalent sport route on TR should be at least hard F6b for the crux in good conditions. The rest of the route would be tough for F6a.  If you are serious about the grade maybe you are reaching past my tricky bridging crux in the groove. My reach is a little above average being 5' 10" with a big ape index.

Plus the key factor that seconding the Axe is almost certainly not equivalent to F6a+.

Exactly, that's why Indian Face converts to sport 6a+

I think you must have both been climbing very well if you thought that the axe felt like 6a+. Possibly a Verdon 6a+. I personally felt it compared to Bloody Sunday in Pembroke which also gets e4 6a. Both would probably be 6B+ if bolted.

Both great climbs and all the better for not being bolted.