UKH

I have been using a method of top-rope soloing using a pair of clove hitches. I have had some people tell me it’s unsafe, but without being able to provide a convincing reason. Others have said it is probably safe, but a bit of a faff. I don’t want to climb on an unsafe system, but I also don’t want to abandon it without a concrete reason as to WHY it’s unsafe. So I thought I’d ask on here.

Here’s an outline of the technique

1. Build a bomb-proof anchor at the top of the crag, ideally some distance from the edge to avoid taking a factor 2 if you fell while topping out directly over the anchor

2. Tie a fig-8 at the mid-point of the rope to the anchor, providing two ‘independent’ strands to hang off the crag

3. Clip two locking carabiners to harness – I have found clipping them through the tie in loops (as opposed to belay loop) actually makes them less likely to crossload in this context. Please correct me if this is wrong

4. Tie a clove hitch (one for each strand) to each locking carabiner, and (optional) pass the R hand strand below through one of the R side gear loops, and the L hand strand through the left, to keep the system tidy and running smoothly

5. Climb, frequently adjusting the clove hitches as you go. Have one as a primary (where the slack is fully taken in on adjusting) and one as a backup, where some slack is kept. So if you fall, you fall on one rope for a softer catch

6. Carry equipment required to ascend the rope and convert to an abseil, should the clove become “locked” after a fall and difficult to unload (esp. if dangling unable to get back on the wall)

For now, I’m only keen on using it on nice clean vertical / slab routes that are well within my comfort zone. If I want to do harder routes, overhangs etc I’d just wait til I can find someone to climb with.

Here is what I want to know:

1. Is the system inherently safe or inherently unsafe? **If not, why?** 

Here is what I am NOT interested in:

1. Whether or not it’s a faff

2. Whether it’s possible to think of specific situations where it wouldn’t work (e.g. a route with a big traverse, a route where your anchor is right at the edge of the crag and you could take a factor 2 if you climbed above it, routes where you can't frequently adjust your knots etc). We can just assume that you wouldn’t use this system in such situations to begin with

3. Flaws that are actually due to poor technique (e.g. setting up faulty anchors, cross/tri-axially loading biners etc.) rather than the system itself

4. “Just buying a microtraxion”, “Just buying a Gri-Gri” etc.

Thank you in advance for your help!!

You say you're not interested in whether or not it is a faff, only whether or not it is unsafe but the two can't be separated. All other things being equal a simple system will always be safer than a complicated one.

Agree 100%. It's faff in the sense that you keep having to adjust a clove hitch, but the technique itself is simple and doesn't divert your attention.

In fact that's one of the reasons why I am reluctant to try the techniques where you're using a set of different mechanical devices.

It sounds safe to me, can't think why not.   Andy Kirkpatrick has stated that this clove-hitch TR soloing is a technique that he has used and that everyone should know (since it doesn't need specific devices).   

Presumably you are using a dynamic or semi-static rope, not a static one?

Cheers!

Yeah, dynamic (Beal Karma 9.8mm)

I think its safe ... just a massive faff and tricky to use well when climbing at your limit. Much better to use a shunt and have a backup.

Not an expert but it seems a safe system to me. I can't see how it could fail, especially with two rope strands and redundant clove hitches but, I enphasize again, I am not an experienced climber.

I use the clove hitch technique for rope solo leads on low grades, as described by A. kirkpatrick and others and, yes, is a faff but it works. I use steel locking carabiners for the clove hitch (threaded through the harness as you described), heavier but stronger in case of cross load, even if unlikely.

I have to agree with most that the faff required to give yourself slack is a burden on smooth progression. On top rope I have adopted the "shunt" technique with great satisfaction, so much so that I am now looking at mechanical devices such as the "revo" for roped solo leading.

Thanks all for the replies so far!

I've used a similar method occasionally but using 2 screwgates on the harness loop and fig 8s on bight (could be pre-tied at intervals) clipping to the higher knot before unclipping the lower one. Krabs unlikely to cross as only the higher 8 is loaded. Less safe than your system as one will generally fall farther but probably less faff (possibly awkward fumbling with a clove hitch might make it prone to change shape and not load krab in optimum manner). One does need to be able to rest if tying knots en route. so often best for easier routes and I've usually only had one rope so less redundancy. Still use it very occasionally for climbing back up easy rock using neighbouring dynamic ab rope for protection.  Your system might be very slightly better with 2 fig 8s at anchor with a little slack between.

It did save me once when a hold at the top of High Rocks crumbled, so probably fairly high fall factor, and using a thin hawser laid exWD rope and with anchor round a tree root near edge! Was blissfully ignorant of fall factors.

I haven't used that system, but I have TR-soloed using a Grigri, and if I do one of the backup methods I use is to put a clove hitch into a krab on my belay loop below the Grigri.  (The other one that works is knots in the rope).  So I can't see a great issue with it as the primary system other than that it might be a little cack-handed as it's easier to pull through a Grigri than a clove hitch.

Being pedantic here to clear up possible confusion..

Regarding any rope you can buy from a climbing or caving shop in Europe, "static" and "semi-static" are the same thing!  Also "low stretch", and "low stretch kernmantle" or "LSK". 

It all complies with the EU standard EN-1891 (either A or B) which specifies a drop-test and maximum impact force similar to that specified for dynamic rope but with a higher impact force.  So any rope that complies, regardless of what it's called, is a little bit dynamic or to put it another way is not completely static.

There is such a thing as an abseiling rope that is too static to be called a 'static rope', but you won't find that stuff in any climbing or caving shop.  (I once bought some from an army-surplus store without really knowing what it was - that was many years ago now and I doubt it's possible any more.) 

The manufacturer makes it for military use - the idea is to prevent soldiers from decking out on rope stretch when they do long abseils rapidly and brake late and hard.  (As I suppose you'd be keen to do if someone might be shooting at you!)  They sell the stuff on the strict understanding that it is to be used for abseiling *only* - not rigging, not SRT and definitely not top-roping (solo or otherwise).

It would be far more straight forward to use a single static or semi static rope and a shunt.

I don't think it's unsafe as such. The only thing I can think of is if you take a bit of a fall onto your hitches you might end up getting them really tight and struggle to loosen them. Therefore getting stuck, unless as you mentioned you also take gear to ascend a rope. Which basically defeats the point of using the clove hitches, you might as well just use ascenders to self belay, like a microtraction / shunt etc.

These are way better in terms of climbing as they'll glide up the rope as you climb meaning you can actually focus on climbing rather than stopping to adjust knots which would be impossible without weighting the other rope on all but the easiest climbs. 

Couple of things you might want to consider doing, based on your description:

1. Rope protection over the top edge of the crag, particularly if the belay anchors are set back.

2. Sticking in intermediate runners and cove hitching to these (assuming you abseil down the line first) to provide additional back up, redirect the rope, or provide protection against rope wear round overhangs etc. 

You might already be doing these anyway, of course.

I've top solod on clove hitches before, and with the exception of easier ground, I never enjoyed the process. Hardest I done was an HVS and adjusting the clove hitches never felt as easy as it did in theory.

On another occasion I tied a bunch of alpine butterflies down both strand, and clipped them with a two girth hitched slings as I went and felt more comfortable, but overall the faff just wasn't worth it, and I decided to spent my partnerless days cleaning routes on ab and inspecting, placing gear instead.

Thanks, some really useful advice in most of these!

Since it only takes one hand to adjust the clove hitches, I've thought of it only as inconveniencing yourself as much as if you were placing gear.

The idea of abbing down and putting in extra runners is needed is good and I hadn't thought of it. which is odd as I was usually abbing down to begin with anyway.

Cheers all!

Finding a partner would be a much safer option.

2. Tie a fig-8 at the mid-point of the rope to the anchor, providing two ‘independent’ strands to hang off the crag

This is not 2 'Independent' strands, if a failure occurs in the loop of the fig-8 you've tied the whole system fails.  Tying a fig-8 either side of the mid-point and clipping both loops into belay will give 'independent' strands.

You're quite right. Noted for next time!

When you take in the slack on the hitch,  is there ever a loop of rope around the krab (I.e mid hitch)? Just thinking what would happen if there was, and you slipped at the wrong moment - hand grabs loop,  bodyweight tightens hitch - it's going to hurt and I'm trying to think if you could actually get out of that position? 

I imagine if you fell and got your fingers caught in the clove hitch, you'd break them very painfully and struggle to get out again. I  reckon you'd be pretty screwed if you weren't able to unload the knot quickly (e.g by getting back on the wall).

However, it's not something I've ever really felt at risk of doing. I guess the way to completely prevent it would just use another biner clipped into the "belly" of the hitch and use it as a handle.

Useful point you raise though!

Edit: having said that, if you were alternating between ropes when tying the hitches, you would get caught by your other clove before catching your fingers in the one being adjusted (as when you tighten it your hands AREN'T in the loop)

Yergonnadie!!!!!!

It would be far more straight forward to use a single static or semi static rope and a shunt.  

Interestingly seven people thumb it down. Without an explanation. ?Would be very interested in the reason. I do around 30 "routes/labs" every week in this way since years. Never had a problem with the system. ?Suggestions are welcome. With a smile even I know: All Men Are Mortal. 

Cheers your Fosca

Point 4 of things he's not asked for in the OP.

Have a read of http://guidetricksforclimbers.com/use-and-abuse-of-the-clove-hitch/

It's not really definite but it's the only test results on clove hitches that I've come across online.

FWIW I wouldn't use your method, or any method without a dissimilar backup. If the backup is exactly the same as the main safety, it's not really an independent backup.

That's interesting. Don't think I'd spent much time thinking about the orientation of clove hitches. 

Interesting & food for thought.

Cheers for sharing!

More muppets hiding behind the dislike button. Why am I not surprised.

Dear god, not again. Do you normally answer questions by saying exactly the thing the bloke has asked you not to give him advice about? He knows about mechanical devices, he's asked a specific question to gain insight into peoples opinion on a technique is using. How is saying "use a mechanical device" helpful?