UKH

I have found a small overgrown crag with potential for some new routes, not mentioned in any local guides or on UKC.

The crag sits on privately owned farm land. Does anyone have any advice for how to approach the land owner to get permission to climb there? 

My approach was going to explain why - the lure of new routing. Explain trad climbing (so no damage to rock or changing environment) 

Reassure them how we would access the crag (from a bridleway and without crossing any crops) 

And reassure them that we have BMC liability insurance but also that they would not be held in any way accountable and that we just want to make sure we're not trespassing. 

Has anyone had this conversation before? I'm trying to think of possible objections or concerns they might have so I can have an answer for them. 

In reply to Kemics:

You might want to contact the local BMC access rep for advice/assistance - https://www.thebmc.co.uk/list-of-bmc-access-reps

In reply to Kemics:

I see you are in Bristol, is the crag in the Bristol region? Just because it isnt in a local guide or UKC doesnt mean it hasnt already been developed. I've developed some stuff in the area that has become overgrown again, as has Martin Crocker. Anyway, obviously you may have found a totally new crag but if you wanted to send me a pic of it or a clue then i can tell you if I know anything about it.

In reply to The Pylon King:

And also whip down there double quick, to tick the lovely new routes...?

In reply to Phil79:

A photo of an overgrown crag is hardly going to tell me where it is now is it!

In reply to Kemics:

No sudden movements, approach from upwind so they have some notice and try not to startle them.

In reply to Kemics:

Be direct and make a simple request, don't waste their time with long-winded explanations of your motivations unless you sense that they are interested in such things.

They will either be amenable to the idea or not and you shpud be able to sense this early on.

In reply to Kemics:

I know of someone who secured group access to a crag that had previously been problematic (litter and toiletting problems), by setting an evening aside and taking a good bottle of whiskey. They may have known the landowner in advance would appreciate the gesture. 

In reply to Kemics:

Head-on saying: "I'm a Vegan and believe in my Right to Roam"

In reply to Phil79:

Would be most surprised if this happened. Anyway, if Mark gave the OP his word not to do the routes, then that's that. Gentleman's honour. Otherwise the OP runs the risk of negotating with the (amused?) landowner, cleaning up the crag, doing the routes, then finding that some/all have been done before. Which is fine if he's motivated purely to clean up the crag for the public good. Less fine though if he's interested in 'the lure of new routing' - and he's said he is.

I lived through the inglorious years of the '60s/'70s, when, in many areas, new routing was a cut-throat affair. Today we seem to inhabit more gentlemanly times (well, at least in respect of first ascents). I'd far rather it like that.

Mick

In reply to Dave Garnett:

And never from behind......

In reply to Mick Ward:

Yeah exactly Mick, I dont nick people's routes (intentionally anyway). To be honest I'd love it if someone else is developing stuff locally that I havent found yet, makes it far more interesting for the new guidebook.

In reply to The Pylon King:

Yeah afraid no where near Bristol. I think between you, guy and crocker there is no esoteric pebble unclimbed  

In reply to timjones:

Yeah ill probably give this a go and then try the detailed request if they are resistant 

In reply to summo:

Back in the eighties this was similar to what a mate and I did at a crag in the Dales. There was a public footpath running just below so we assumed we'd be OK just getting on with gardening. We soon learned otherwise when the owner, a retired farmer who lived nearby, spotted us. We were ordered off and off we went. After a short interlude we knocked on his door to ask permission, suitably backed up by a bottle of whisky. Problem solved!

In reply to Kemics: to add.. be direct, and be prepared - if he asks about liability,  insurance etc.  Hmming and having won't impress 

In reply to Kemics:

Haha, you'd be suprised, theres still stuff around.

In reply to Kemics:

“My approach was going to explain why - the lure of new routing. Explain trad climbing (so no damage to rock or changing environment)”

no cleaning, removal of loose blocks and flakes, abseil inspection, nothing at all, really?

In reply to Tobes:

No point mentioning things which won't help his cause!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Ha ha ; ) though good to know which are his routes, so I know to avoid them! 

In reply to Kemics:

Just ask politely.  I can just imagine my farmer neighbours eyes glazing over when you start talking about "the lure of new routes" and would soon fall asleep when you elaborate on "Trad Climbing".

But as you realise just be ready for objections!  Is it a stock farm?  Or arable?  If its stock will climbing frighten the stock?  And are you going to trash the crops getting too and fro.?  Where are you going to park up?  Will you be making any noise?

Good luck.

In reply to Kemics:

What Tim said plus the Whisky story.

i am someone who says yes to everything unless there is a good reason to say no.  My default character.  If I was the farmer you’d be borderline no from the start and if you put a foot wrong in your request, NO.

I grew up around farms and lived in half a house next door to a farmer near where I am now.  There was a footpath across one field about a mile from the house.  We used to get people in our garden.  Is this the footpath.  We didn’t really mind (nice if clueless people) but there was also low level theft and damage all the time.

The farmhouse and land was all sold off as a private house and now there is fencing across the field either side of the footpath so you can’t wander.  On the one hand I think this is sad but at the same time completely understand it.

There is no benefit for them and possibly a whole load of issues.

One last thing, ask for yourself, not for the climbing world.  They’ll judge you on you, but other people, well, we all know what they’re like!

Hope this is useful and good luck.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to The Pylon King:

I was only joking chaps, hence the smiley face. Wouldn't expect anyone to actually nick any routes.