UKH

so this may be an appropriate time (in the current climate) to throw out a question which ive pondered on for some time, and ive never really had a discussion about. 

ill set the scene, your at the crag and you see someone going for a good onsight/headpoint etc, but they start to struggle, they could be really run out and could be looking at a very dangerous fall, they shout "throw me a rope". 

now I know this may not be the first port of call, some people may try and talk to the climber calm them, give them beta, reassurance etc. but if the situation was looking extremely serious, and someone does have to throw a rope for them. how? 

my thought would be build anchor at the top, attach a carabiner to the rope so the person could clip it onto their belay loop, and have them on belay so able to lower safely back to the ground, or a stance (if on a multi pitch). to where they could be safe. (what if they were soloing??) 

now this may not always be able to happen, so im open to other suggestions, or hear peoples own stories about it. 

(I may just be thinking about this too much also, and probably going slightly crazy, with having to stay indoors a lot).

but any answers or opinion's appreciated. 

thanks 

I have thought about this. When lowering them a rope, do you send the rope down and then put them on belay? The risk of this is that they are delighted to see a rope, clip into it and then lean back and fall because they're not on belay. You can always tell them it's not on belay yet but if they are panicking that might not work. 

Or do you lower it until it's nearly at their level, put it on belay and then lower it more? Which takes longer and risks some abuse from the stuck climber.

Big fig8 a wrist can go through on the end of the rope, put a krab on it. Belay as appropriate, could be a quick conventional gear belay, could be a turn of rope around a tree, could be sitting in a hole. If comms are bad you want to make yourself properly safe before the rope goes down the crag in case you get pulled over the edge, assume they'll grab it and load it immediately unless you can clearly communicate and have agreed what's happening. Hold or lower the climber to a safer position as appropriate.

jk

Having been the person wanting a rope once or twice, I would suggest that if they say they want a rope then they want an expletive-deleted rope & not beta, reassurance etc.

Otoh you, as the person at the top being pleaded with, don't want to be pulled off & die either, so clearly you set up some kind of quick & dirty anchor first - unless you're very very confident you can help them out sufficiently with just a stance & a waist belay.

I did it once.  Just chucked in one bit of gear which went in like a dream and was bomber.

TBH, as he was half my weight I'd have got away with none and just bracing myself.  I wasn't even pulled against said gear.

I heard a story of someone topping out having been thrown a rope in the circumstances you describe - rather shocked to discover the "belayer" was just taking the rope in hand over hand. Belayer's response: you obviously thought you could climb it, I had no reason to doubt you. (It would make a better story if I could remember who it was).

wow thats quite something 

After a visit to the pub back in the mists of time, a large team of us went soloing on grit. I got into difficulty and called for a rope from those above. Next I was hit by a coiled rope thrown down, followed by cackles of laughter. Nearly, but not quite fell off, but calmed down and got up.

Who needs enemies...

youtube.com/watch?v=VykqqONDFO8&

This video should clear things up

The Creagh Dhu Club are said to have done that to someone once

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rock_talk/books_about_hard_northernscotti...

Depends on the terrain at the top. On a grit crag with one of those 'crevasses' at the top, I'd body belay from the crevasse for speed. If no crevasse, I'd look for the fastest belay I could find - rope loop round a boulder say, and do an Italian hitch direct belay. 

classic example, thanks 

This. This is by far the most succinct and yet descriptive answer of all the things you should be thinking about.

Only thing I would add is that, although slower, a much more certain approach is to fix an anchor and abseil down yourself and clip yourself to the person in trouble (e.g. doubled quickdraws from your belay loop to theirs). I would take this approach if you can't be sure you can throw the rope to the person in question with any reliability (wind, too far down, overhang, uncertainty as to which bit of cliff edge is above them, etc.) or if the person is a beginner and/or in terminal panic because their inability to use the rope correctly might still lead to them falling, whereas, if you are abseiling down, you are the person doing the decision making and as you are not in a panic, you can get the person safely down.

This has happened once to me, I was however at a belay. I had lead the first pitch of Robert Brown (E3 5c) on High Tor and was comfy on the belay ledge which serves quite a few routes. My second was just about to leave the deck when I hear a lot of whimpering from below. There was a guy down there whose shoulder had dislocated and was a fair way from his last gear. My second untied from one rope and I pulled it up, put it through one of the belay runners and lowered it with a locking crab tied in the end.

The poor guy managed to take some of his weight on a couple of footholds. I swung the crab around until it was above his head. He let go with his good arm, grabbed the crab and managed to stay in touch with the rock as he pulled it down to his belay loop and clipped it. Phew!
with his help from two feet and one arm, I managed to winch him up to the ledge. Even though I’d done it before, I couldn’t do anything with his shoulder, it had spasmed  too tight. I told him I would lower him off, but he was having a major dose of the heebie jeebies and wouldn’t leave the ledge. I engaged him in in conversation, innocently moved behind him, levered him off the ledge with my knee and lowered him down. 
my second came up, and by the time we were on the top belay, we could hear the ambulance stopping on the A6. 
 

If there is a tree at the top, just waist belay near the edge where you can see with the rope going back round the tree for friction.  As mentioned above, decent sized loop with krab on it.

Although time is really of the essence, DO NOT neglect to flake out at least enough rope for the rescue. More haste less speed on this otherwise it will tangle.

I would probably throw the rope to them and then ask if would have been more useful if I'd uncoiled it first.

I had an experience like that (I doubt it was the same story)... I went to Connor Cove to climb Freeborn Man (E4 6a) , it was a great day but when we arrived it was massive swell... So big it was spraying to the full height of the cliff and raining down on the down climb. The route was the only dry face but the water beneath was rising and falling by a massive range. Being young and foolish I timed my decent to miss the swell and into the route. As I got to the change in angle into the slab at the top I freaked out a bit as the huge holds turned into tiny crimps. I shouted up to my mate for a rope but he'd buggered off with his girlfriend. After a bit of trying to rest under the overlap, shouting and mustering up a new plan/courage my mate answered and eventually lowered a rope. I used it to pull through the move onto the slab, regained composure and climbed up. Found my mate with one arm hooked around a stake and the rope wrapped around his other arm!! 😱 We decided to have a rest from climbing for the rest of the day... 😂 ... fun times (but never again) 😇

Same for me - I've been in bad shape leading and called for a rope from above twice in my life. I just wanted to see the end of a rope slithering down to me as fast as possible and as soon as possible - no "helpful" advice or comments required at all, thanks. Just a rope

My advice is - the person at the top lowering the rope had better be soundly belayed, though, in case the person calling for a rope just grabs the end and immediately peels off backwards

I've heard that one too. I can't remember who it was either.

When I wanted a rope from above I wanted a rope ASAP!  I'd crumbled the only decent hold I could find and was hanging onto another poor crimp with my feet on semi-smears. I could have prayed and gone for it and risked a pretty safe 40 footer, but then I'd have been hanging in space above the sea, and my belayer had already started chimneying up the bottom of the route due to the incoming tide......we'd have been properly stuck.  When the rope arrived in front of my face 15 minutes and many strenuous and awkward hand swaps later my hands were at their limit and I was very grateful for the krab on the end!

I would suggest that unless the person stuck is on good footholds / ledge they're going to come off by the time you've got to them.

I did just that. Was crag fast real bad. First route of the day. Though I was on a sev. Hungover.  Inexperienced.  All the classics to have an epic. Must of been stood on the quartz rail for almost an hour. Could not believe my eyes when I clipped the rope from above in and made the easy but committing moves up to see I wasn't even on. All this fun was just to get to direct route. Hahaha. That went down easy after in comparison. Alpha (VS 4b)

Happened with me a couple of years back. Scrambling up snowed up rocks and a guy choosing to lead a short steep crack to one side was standing in a sling on a nut, couldn't safely reach a ledge, wanted a rope quickly. I just had a long dyneema sling and a krab but threw the sling over a spike, tested it, managed to get hold of some slack on his rope (think I leant over but can't remember), clipped it through the krab and he immediately had protection via a direct belay. I actually used a waist belay with the rope running up to the krab and back to him, and was able to apply my full body weight to safely half haul them to the top. Nowadays a lot of people would probably use a Munter on the krab but  of course couldn't give much of a pull.

In other situations if I had a rope handy I'd probably do something similar.....uncoil part of the rope and lower it down with a fig8 knot and krab with the rope passed through a krab on an anchor at the top, or possibly just running round a safe boulder etc and back to m

I've had to ask for ropes once or twice over the years as well as having to do the honours from time to time, the most memorable occasion having been In the seventies on The Valkyrie on Etive Slabs.  My pal was leading, 50 feet up and left of me and lost in a sea of slab without runners, unable to discern the next sequence and wanting to come down but, as Robin Campbell points out in his Hard Rock essay - "Nobody reverses an Etive crux". Then it started to spit with rain! Jim daren't move his feet as they were on the only dry bits of slab. Any chance of reversing was now gone.

Get out of that, we thought.

I was on the "moustache" stance of Swastika, which we'd done so knew that the quartz band pitches, whilst unprotected, were not that hard. I fixed 3 or 4 more belays, carefully arranged the rope to run freely 50 feet DOWN from Jim and back up to me and with these belays as runners climbed the quartz band with Jim looking on still unable to move. Of course the quartz band runs diagonally taking me further and further away from him as well as up. This was OK, as long as neither of us fell, till just as I got to easy grassy ledges where I hoped to traverse up and left until I was above him, the rope ran out.

What now?

Jim had now to untie with one hand, the other outstretched for balance on the holdless granite,  and let the rope go so I could pull it in and chuck it down to him once I judged I was above him. There he stood, alone and unroped, marooned in the ocean of rock 200 feet above the deck for what  to him must have seemed an eternity, whilst I disappeared from his view scrambling hastily through broken rock and heather to a point I judged might be  about 100 feet directly above him. First time I chucked the rope, since I could no longer see him, I missed him by 20 feet. Then I got a loop to him, he yarded up the rope and we were saved!!! 

How he had felt as he let that rope go and stood there with nowt but friction between him and a 200 foot fall to the ground he's never been able to express but I suspect the event is etched even more deeply in his memory than mine.

For the ultimate example of this seek out James McCaffie's story of his attempt to onsight Indian face. When the only person who could throw him a top rope was his belayer who was at the bottom of the crag hold his rope.

Sorry think it was master's wall, not Indian face:

Pulling through the first roof, I move up and after spending a few minutes trying to find a rock 6, I throw a skyhook on and rather than moving up right, which is where Masters Wall goes, I climb about halfway up the groove on Indian Face before reaching right and committing to two or three hard sequences which felt desperate. Getting stood on a 1cm edge 10cm long, I thought I was in but I soon realised I couldn't move right, I daren't move up as although there was something to aim for, if it was not very good I would be dead and the footholds appeared to run out. I tried to escape onto the resting ledge on Indian Face just up to my left, feeling pretty desperate by then. I couldn't.

Climbed out, I untied and dropped the ropes to Adam. What followed was a truly life-changing experience. I'd been on the climb for some time and Adam didn't know the cliff, so it took him a while to throw the two tied together 9mm ropes across the face to me from quite far up to the right. By this time I'd been in the sun for a long time, I'd thrown my rack off to save weight, most of my fingertips were bleeding, I couldn't feel my toes, and my tendons had been screaming for more than 30 minutes. I thought I had seconds to go for 30 minutes, but you do try your best to hold on to life. It's hard to describe those last 30 minutes on that bloody wall, but being tortured before knowing they're going to finish you off is perhaps not too far off the mark. When the rope reached me I struggled to tie a proper knot, I think I got a weird slippery hitch before I sailed 50 foot down right into Vember's drainpipe crack and quickly slid down that until at last the knot held.

It's always going to be a judgement call to make. I'd agree that 10m up a 12m route at Stanage on a sunny, calm day, lowering a rope is the way to go and you can probably body anchor in a few minutes and lower them to the ground with a minimum of fuss. But if you are on a mountain crag, the wind is blowing 20mph, the climber is 20m up a 45m route with an overhang above them, it's already a 20 minute run to get to the top of the crag and when you get there, you are not certain you are exactly above the climber... then throwing a rope starts to look very unlikely to succeed.

What an absolute gripper. Thanks for posting that

".............most of my fingertips were bleeding, I couldn't feel my toes, and my tendons had been screaming for more than 30 minutes. I thought I had seconds to go for 30 minutes, but you do try your best to hold on to life............."

I like the bit about slithering down "Vember's drainpipe crack" too

Yes, a real gripper, full story and context here

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/return_to_indian_face_by_james...

Thanks a lot for the link, Martin. I read it - thought it was a good read, great photos too

Bloody hell! Got to be one of the scariest stories I've heard.

This "nick of time" video was linked in a UKC thread a few years ago.

https://www.outsideonline.com/1901426/ice-climber-narrowly-escapes-huge-fal...

The starting  arrow appears in the first image to  view.

I did this once in the Peak for a friend who was struggling on a route and was facing a ground fall. I attached myself to one piece of gear at the top of the crag and threw the rope down to him with a figure of eight and a Krab. All he had to do was clip in. After having a rest he was able to climb up ok. He was a sport climber getting caught out on a trad route.