UKH

The video is now up of Ondra's attempt on Salathe:

youtube.com/watch?v=5kZDukn5JnE& (5m)

Damn. If he'd done it I think that would have been even more impressive than Honnold soloing it after working it to death... I'm not sure it's still not more impressive!

He soloed Freerider, not Salathe. 

The question now I suppose is:

Could he still get the first onsight of Freerider now that he's fallen off Salathe higher up?

Absolutely having it, great stuff

If you've climbed part of a route before, I wouldn't count that as onsight. But that do I know...

The 2 routes share so many common pitches that I would say that he couldn't claim a true onsight of Freerider.

Even though he onsighted all of them?

Harsh?

That was my question really. If you fell off any of them, then clearly not. But if you cruised them, why not?

Because that's not what onsight means is it? Unless the ethics of big wall are different.

I think this may show that in theory you can onsight all the pitches of a route without actually onsighting the route as a whole. If he went back for Freerider I doubt it would feel like an onsight to him, even if he is absolutely sure that he would have onsighted it, had he attempted it first.

To me it could go either way. If climbing the pitches you've previously onsighted allows you to arrive at the split significantly fresher than you got there the first time, then I'd very much agree. But otherwise, I'm not so sure. It's a judgement call, I'd say, at least to me, rather than an absolutely objective one. 

Would having done Cream before invalidate an onsight of Strawberries?

Edit: and a slightly more extreme example - is it possible to onsight Right Wall after previously having done Left Wall, given that both share the first pitch of Spiral Stairs?

Because a pure onsight should be ground up with no prior practice?

Would you apply the same principe to onsighting single pitch routes and say it is OK to have practiced some of the sequences as long as you cruised them?

No, but having done Strawberries may invalidate an onsight of Cream.

Great little film. I'd fall off just looking at that flared crack, looks horrific.

Didn't even know they were multi-pitch, haven't done either. Is Spiral Stairs even part of those routes, or just a way to get to them? Otherwise same rules apply don't they, no point changing them to suit? Just log one as a headpoint and get over yourself.

I don't think it's necessarily helpful to apply the same black and white approach to big wall routes as you can to single pitch. Regardless of that, honesty is always one of the most important aspect of style. If Ondra did get on Freerider and managed to onsight the rest of it, then I think it would be a damn fine achievement which would be rightly lauded. It could certainly then be surpassed by a future onsight of the full route but I don't think that would be much of a blemish on the achievement.

Right Wall is only multi-pitch if you are the Berzins brothers! A famous photo in Crags blackmail corner. 

Given Left and Right Unconquerable commonly share the same 3m starting crack, does that mean I can’t onsight both using the traditional line?

Completely agree. I think if Ondra was to get on Freerider now and do it without falling, and then someone were to come along later and do it without having tried Salathe first, there'd be no doubt in my mind as to who should be credited with the first flash of Freerider.

Seems a little bit sad if really impressive achievements were to be diminished by insignificant technicalities, although I do recognise that it will always be a continuum, and at some stage the advantage gained will become significant.

Really cool to see him crack climbing/jamming. One is so used to seeing him bearing down on sick crimps, crazy dynamic side-to-side/upside down moves etc, that seeing him whack jams in a burly straight crack seemed odd.

Fair point. Even so, still not sure which is more impressive!

Clearly what we need in this situation is a "the lego movie" Batman style "First Try" youtube.com/watch?v=44-RsrF_V_w&

I don't think it's diminished, it is what it is. Just because there isn't an easy label you can put on it.

I love the way UKC can bring Spiral Stairs into a discussion on the headwall of Salathe Wall!

So impressive, and a good reminder that that superheroes don't always succeed in their onsight goals too (something that is easy to forget).

That's pretty banal. Check out the police ramming scooters thread. Ends up on time travel.

Ooch! The belayer takes a fair slamming at 4m38s !

There is a short interview with Ondra on Andrew Bisharat's Runout podcast, where Ondra says that by his own strict standards he does not consider that he could claim a valid onsight of Freerider now, and that he would have to look elsewhere (e.g. PreMuir, ElNino).  

That's good to know. I do hope though, that it's because he believes he would most likely end up at the split in better shape next time as a result, rather than due to any dogmatic adherence to imagined rules.

Yes we speak of things that matter,
With words that must be said,
"Can analysis be worthwhile?"
"Is the theater really dead?"

Mick

I'm lost in the dangling conversation!

I abseiled down Cenotaph Corner whilst they were doing this, but didn't know what they were on because I'd just done Ivy Sepulchre and at that point both were on the line of the girdle.

"What are you on, the girdle?" says I. For some reason they didn't sound very happy when they (no idea which one) told me they were doing Right Wall. Oops

Think that was the third ascent, and to be fair Livesey's first ascent was split by some abseiling and soloing shenanigans.

Can you expand further on that please? Not heard those Right Wall first ascent stories 

Alternately.....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality

I'm not sure it's only down to whether it makes a difference or not. I'm sure I could lose the onsight of an E1 by doing an E2 which shares some of the same pitches, even if I was pretty certain I would have onsighted the E1 had I done it first. Even if being on bits of it before made absolutely no difference to likelihood of success, the second route may not feel like an onsight.

+1

It'll be in guidebook histories or similar, might even be in Extreme Rock (can't check that till later).

If I remember correctly, Pete Livesey got to the girdle ledge and was then unsure about the top bit with the porthole. So he untied, soloed up The Gates, abbed down to look at the bit he was unsure about, tied on again and completed the ascent.

I'm sure someone will come along and correct me if I've got that wrong.

Don't forget that in the mid 70s, although everyone knew what made a better "quality" ascent, the terms like onsight weren't in general use. There was more emphasis on not using any aid and yo-yoing was around (no doubt I'll be corrected on this as well by somebody who remembers using the term onsight in 1968 ).

Edit: love your profile photo, very Wallace