UKH

Just thought I'd leave this here:

https://www.climberspath.com/

Instead of going out and acquiring experience through doing actual rock climbing in a spirit of independence and adventure, you can pay this chap £12 for a 30 minute video telling you EXACTLY how to climb a specific VS 4c (or whatever).

Welcome to the future, people. 

Pronounced as climberspaff. 

Most people just ask for free here on UKC.

The imbedded videos don't work on my shonky old laptop so I'm definitely not going to be tempted, although I very much suspect I'm not the target audience anyway. I am interested to see if there is a market for this though - I wouldn't have thought so but I'm sure they put a lot of planning into it before building all this, and as an instructor I guess Henry has a much better knowledge of what people are willing to pay for in climbing than I do!

Oh I'm sure there is a market for it. But just because there is demand, it doesn't mean that supply is good. I'm not one for banging on about efficks, but this goes utterly against all that is good and noble in British traditional climbing. As the Wu-Tang Clan said, Cash Rules Everything Around Me. But I'd rather live in a world where it doesn't.

I don't even have anything against learning about routes from videos before taking them on, especially if you're a beginner and need confidence (just don't claim onsight lol). 

I just can't wrap my head around how you can justify £12 for a video of someone climbing a VS. The guiding work must've dried up if he's this desperate.

You're posting this on a commercial website operated by a company which makes books which tell people exactly how to climb specific routes.

I must be getting mellow with age, but I can't really get very het-up about this. Is it that different from, say, select guidebooks that give you lots of info on specific routes? In comparison to people setting fire to the moors above me with general gormlessness, this one barely measures a flicker on my rage-o-meter!

Yes I am. I think there is a difference between a guidebook with a two line description and a photo enabling me to find a route, and paying £12 so somebody can tell me literally everything I might possibly do for myself in advance.

Are they on a continuum? Sure. You may also have noticed that due to this thing called "dusk", both daytime and nighttime are on a continuum. I look forward to your sarcastic insistence that anyone who thinks 3am and 3pm are basally the same is somehow being stupid. 

I have no comment on dusk, dawn, and nighttime.

But indeed I think you are being stupid.

Carry on.

A good response to a stupid comment.

wasn't there a thread about this some time ago ?

Yes, I have a vague memory of it.

Although people can climb things however the hell they want and i'm not going to stop them - my problem with this is that, for me at least, it totally defeats the point and one of the main joys of trad climbing.  I remember a now long banned poster on here (Fiend) used to have regular lengthy rants about people robbing themselves of the onsight experience, which I sort of agreed with and it makes me sad that people don't really champion this so much nowadays.  There is loads of stuff i love about trad but one of the biggest things is setting off into an adventure that you are uncertain of the outcome and really have to test yourself. stuff like this strips away all that.  I'm still buzzing from climbing something that I managed to onsight by the skin of my teeth 5 days ago, If someone had told me exactly how to climb it before hand blow by blow i would have forgotten about it by the time I had driven home.  My best climbing experiences are by far and away battling through pump or unlocking a tricky sequence above gear where it could have gone either way.  ultimately people who go for this sort of approach are robbing themselves of these fantastic intense experiences. If I was going to be harsh I would say if just want to have a nice gentle time in the outdoors perhaps golf or fishing might be a better suited pass time.  

Different people into different jams.

Some people want to pay lots of money to have an instructor lead loads of classic routes while they second. Some people want to top-rope everything. Some people want to head-point anything at their limit. I saw someone last year who had spend multiple days working Left Unconquerable and they were buzzing when they led it. Fair play, do it how you want if it doesn't damage the rock or hurt anyone. If you log a VS as on-sight when you've watched detailed videos, you're only kidding yourself. Personally, one of the things that attracts me to climbing (and I expect most trad climbers) is working things out on my own but that isn't for everyone.

I do think it's a bit wacky but Henry is a good instructor and if there is a market for it then so be it.      

My major concern was litigation. If you are listing the gear used and showing the placements and someone takes a bad fall and gear rips for example, are the company now culpable? I expect it needs disclaimers up to the eyeballs!

while waiting for lunch to be ready I had a search - https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/press/the_climbers_path-14692

comments not very supportive

Whatever happened to the Spirit of Adventure, or is it dead. On my first ever climb in North Wales we were recommended Nea on the Grochan. Only problem was that we mistook a small crag further up the Pass and climbed what we thought was Nea. That is until it was when comparing notes in the Vaynol that it dawned than not only were we on the wrong climb, but wrong crag. No UKC in 1967 but we had exciting times. All part of the learning experience, so long as you didn't kill yourself!

Or more likely he was just joking?

Really funny. And just like The Ascent of Rum Doodle where they climbed the wrong mountain. You're the kind of guy I'd like to climb with

I suppose the ultimate is doing Crackstone Rib (S 4a) on the Wastad and thinking you'd done Great Wall (E4 6a) on Cloggy (the kind of thing I'm almost capable of, to be honest)

I know someone who did White Wall Crack (E1 5b) thinking it was Agag's Groove (Summer) (VD) 

All gone courtesy of the Insta Tik Tok generation. The world's a product now.

We did Cemetery Gates (E1 5b) as our first proper trad route because, you know, we could climb 6b in the wall. Steep learning curve and not one I'd recommend! 

I went up D Gully Buttress thinking it was Curved Ridge. Not an unheard of error but I’d already been up Curved Ridge, no more than a month earlier.

Seems like quite an interesting idea to me. Full marks for creative thinking. 

It seems to pitched at an odd level - VS to E1. I can see this sort of thing being useful for people on their first trad adventure, who'd really like to have an instructor but can't afford it. Watch a step by step vid of a route and follow it. But for that it would need to be routes around VDiff. Anyone pushing into VS should be capable of working out how to climb a route without someone showing them! I only know the Wye Valley routes, but I'd say Freedom (VS 4c) was a poor choice for someone who needs help climbing VS. Better advice would be to do some of the HVS routes either side before trying that one.

It's a weird old world where some people are obsessed with monetising everything.

This is simply an attempt to charge for beta.

I'm going to join the game and write an app to provide shouts of encouragement and affirmation while you climb. 

I'll link it to the movement with sensors on your rack, heart rate monitors, accelerometers and eye tracking and then have a charging structure that bends in proportion to the amount of psyche on offer.

Obviously there will be language options (allez allez allez vs gamba gamba gamba etc) and a premium for celebrity climber shouts of encouragement (eg Eder Lomba yelling Come on! Comeon! Yeees!) and discounts for punter level chuntering ("get on with it you useless bag of sh1t I'm getting midged to fnck while you are fannying around with that nut").

Obviously I'm going to crowd fund the development but I'll promise Gamba Gamba Gamba tees for support above £500 and a bonus pack of automated commentary made from a pastiche of Matt Groom's finest out-takes.

I think it’s a great idea and looks well filmed from the few seconds clip I watched. If there was a route I was interested in I probably wouldn’t be able to resist buying one. 
I do think the on-sight ethic is being eroded and it is a shame but this is something they happening at the top end of the sport and nothing to do with how much info is available to beginners. For years instructors have jummared alongside clients and talking them through a lead.

I think you need to alert Michael Sandel.

The best take away from thinking about transactions for “dubious” goods in terms of supply and demand is that at the right price there will always be someone willing to supply that good. (Even if the good is a bad.) So it’s much more efficient to work on the demand side. 

I’m sure we’ve all asked our mates for beta and we all know who in our social circle has a memory for moves and gear and who is a bit vague. Perhaps casting buying beta as a shameful admission that you’ve no mates is the way to go? Assuming of course that you are up for enforcing social norms through shaming. 

It is your actual job no?!

In this context, totally agreed. If I couldn't summon the balls to on-sight a route then I'd rather just ab down it and shunt the moves and figure out the gear placements, or even pre-place them. I did quite a lot of this with routes which were slightly above my (modest) pay-grade long before it was called head-pointing. 

Brilliant. Just absolutely brilliant!!

I'm currently sitting on a sort of bench thing, which is lucky because if it'd been a chair, I might have hurt myself.

I wish this guy all the luck in the world, honestly. Let no (wo)man say that the UK isn't the home of innovation!

Obviously I'd rather chop my own hand off than buy one of these videos but when it comes to providing a product/service, it's not about what you want or would pay for, it's about what your customers want or will pay for (and I'm speaking from a position of some experience there). It will be very interesting to hear how his business goes, it certainly has the possibility to be a money printer: You spend time and money once and then you can sell the product an infinite number of times while incurring just a tiny admin and transaction cost.

That's an odd thing to say. Our books don't tell people "exactly how to climb specific routes" - they try to help people find specific routes, which is very different in my book

Chris

Agree about guides; they have always been a key feature of the modern era of climbing. Log books sometimes alert when beta is being divulged, but even this is a far cry from the climb-by-numbers approach of these videos. They also come with significant dangers - a tendency to over-estimate one’s ability, based on the (apparent) ease with which the competent/experienced climber in the videos makes an ascent. Who hasn’t, after all, looked at a UKC Friday Night video and felt ‘I could do that’ (especially fuelled by an intake of nectar)? Coupled with the boldness of youth this could be lethal - in spite of the copious disclaimers accompanying the films.

If there was one of a route I wanted to do, and there was significant doubt as to whether I could get up that route, then I'd consider buying one of these as part of my gathering of beta (not bothered about the onsight in those circumstances).

For example, if I ever get back to thinking about trying Sirplum (E1 5b) again (*), I'd likely buy his Sirplum video (not out yet) so that I'd have a better idea of what's beyond my previous failure point (the big thread 🐤).

(*) extremely unlikely but I can still dream.

I did exactly this ^^^ once and as a result of the extensive after climb celebrations, all of my party suffered champagne lassitude

Beyond the big thread? two more moves that are a bit strenuous and awkward, keep going and then the posture/angle changes to something more relaxing. Far easier than lowering off into the nettles.

15 quid please!

Chee Tor Girdle would be a short one....

"Clip the tat"

The End

I sort of knew that but couldn't summon up the commitment into the void.

What's all this lowering off into the nettles business, I came back down to the belay ledge - can't quite remember but pretty sure I left a crab on the big thread in-situ sling, downclimbed to the hard move over the bulge and then I'm not sure but since I didn't leave any more gear there I'm guessing that I downclimbed with whatever gear was on the bulge and then removed the gear from below.

Wow - what you did was wayyyy harder than going up!

Next time don't forget to do Aplomb as well, it's ever so good.

I think it could work for people who throw themselves at a 'classic' gnarly route which they 'should' be able to do - and fail; the deep fascination which ensues could be a motivator. eg. Matinée at the Roaches.

Ah, but I have (or at least had) lots of downclimbing experience, I was I believe rather good at it 😁, I was certainly very competent at climbing the section of routes just before the crux in both directions 🤣 (aka dithering).

IIRC this was not in the current millennium, doubt I'll ever get back to being strong/good enough to give it another go.

Another one on my list of shame that I'll likely never do.

Thank god it's not just me then. It is the only HVS I have ever failed to do!

 Now who can remember the Planet Fear website had more general clilmbing content and published its 'Beta Cheater' series to classic E1 climbs? That was free content and designed to demystify the E grades and encourage people to have a go and was pretty contentious at the time. 

(edited - it wasn't Rockfax, it was Planet fear). 

E1s are 6a/6a+ and I bet you climb that on holiday. 

I know this is meant to be true, but is it really?

Yes. But obviously harder as you have to put the gear in! See threads passim (many of them…).

I remain convinced that the moves I fell off when trying Tower Crack (HVS 5b), a lowly HVS 5a at that, are harder than any move I've done on 6a or 6a+! Perhaps I need to pay 15 quid for a video on how to do it!

but finally I would never pay up, we've all witnessed hotshot climbers make the moves look ever so feasible - which informs nothing about one's own ability, in relation to strength, stamina, flexibility or musculo-skeletal mechanics

I would certainly want some of those wideboyz jamming gloves if I ever went back to Matinée !

What grade do you think they are?

For clarity, climbing a 6a with a dozen quickdraws stopping for mere seconds to protect yourself is easier than climbing one carrying a few kilos of trad rack and stopping for minutes to protect yourself, which is why E1s are harder than 6as to achieve.

But if you preplaced the gear on the E1 and climbed it as though it were a sport route, what grade do you think it would be?

I think it completely depends on the route.

There are E1’s that are only so because of the lack of protection, and the opposite. There have been HVS’ I have shunted that feel harder than 6c and E1’s that feel like 5c.

If you really want to make an E1 feel hard try lead rope solo it on two clove hitches. Proper trouser filling stuff.

The flip side to that is I would say if you want to make an E1 seem really easy then solo it! I'm always amazed how easy a lot of grit routes feel without having to stop and worry about gear. (Arguments over if short grit routes count as soloing or not notwithstanding... im too much of a wuss to solo anying over 12 meters)

Ps I suppose this is a roundabout way of saying is a lot of the time what makes trad hard isn't the climbing, it's the getting gear in and getting scared. I always think the true equivalent sport grade, just for the technical climbing would be somewhat ego denting.

Allthough some routes are just bloody nails

I thought I’d done this route but apparently not, so I’m limited on what I can say about it. But some thoughts anyhow fwiw:

UKC logbook suggests it’s a bit sandbagged.

In the U.K. it’s much easier to get a lot of mileage on limestone face climbing than on pure crack climbing (as opposed to the hybrid crack/face climbing that’s quite common). So it’s a bit harder to build up the specific skills for this type of climb and the grades seem a bit out of line.

Some 6as, eg in Provence, have quite tough moves on them. 

It may be more obvious now, but IIRC there used to be some doubt as to how far to traverse across before making the next move up and then the same again (i.e. more than one possible line) - it certainly felt like that peering round from the thread into rather steep territory.

Seeing a filmed ascent might remove that doubt and enable better committment. I'll worry about it if I'm ever in a position to contemplate another go. Regardless of whether people agree with the concept or not, the pricing seems fairly reasonable.

After a bit over 30 years of regular climbing, this isn't really the smallest hill that I'm willing to die on but I think you put your finger on it by saying that E1 is harder to achieve than 6a. French grades are after all a total grade for the whole route, not a hardest move grade - as more and more place go on to giving French grades (time to call them universal grades?) to trad routes, it will be interesting to see if the climbing on 6a trad routes tends to be a bit easier on 6a sport routes to take into account the effort factor of plugging in your own gear. This would be in the same way you expect a 10 metre 6a to have harder moves on it than a 25 metre one. 

Fair question and to be honest I've done so few E1s in the UK (properly I mean, i.e. onsight leads) I don't have a good answer, but I think the physicality of some HVSs I have done onsight feels around 6a or 6a+ to me. HVS and 6a/6a+ seems to be about my onsight limit these days. I did do a decent 6a at Horseshoe a couple of summers back, then straight after did the HVS crack line to its right - they felt rather similar to me in how hard the moves were. 

When you come up next I'm very happy to hold your ropes on it and see how you do!   There's a pic of me trying it in this review https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/footwear/climbing_shoes/the_ocun_ozone_plus... I know some people find the crack that I'm climbing the hard bit - I remember it as tough but doable, I found the bit above that in the photo looks like a ledge but is more of a sloping polished shelf where the crack finishes absolutely desperate. I may have missed something but I don't think so. It feels like I just couldn't pull hard enough - a feeling I don't remember having on a 6a.

Just in terms of physical difficulty I think Rockfax have it kinda right with HVS being 4+ish to 5+ish. I would also agree with rockfax most E1s are in the French 5 bracket. 

That's just in terms of the technical climbing though, I always think comparison of sport and trad grades is a bit of mugs game as they are very different beasts!

Then again I don't think I have ever climbed tower crack!

I think a point I saw in another thread which I found interesting is that most people when thinking of French grades immediately jump to indoor gym comparisons (at least I do). Outdoor sport and indoor lead are totally different and the grades are definitely not comparable (though I guess it depends on the gym).

When comparing to outdoor sport I think the Rockfax makes a bit more sense, especially when simply comparing technical difficulty. Comparing an E1 to in indoor 6a makes much more sense to me than comparing it to an outdoor sport 6c. 

Which ones!?

(I've done E3s that were mostly clip-ups on pegs, so minimal gear faff potential, that I would have said were 6b+)

I'd die on it. I reckon 6a is about the same achievement as V. Diff.

Ok, maybe HVD.

I did back off a VDiff last night, I was soloing but you might still have a point. Funnily enough it was utterly brutal and as far as I got (which I think was the crux) definitely made me sweat as much as a 6a, and for all that effort I still couldn't bloomin' do it. 

You should have posted this on one of the regular "is it still an on-sight?" threads 🤣

I will admit my comment did include a decent amount of hyperbole.

I was mainly thinking of Climber’s Club Direct at the Dewerstone.

Maybe I just wasn’t strong when I tried it but I’d been confidently leading HVS and 6c+ indoors and couldn’t get past the first 5m (the roof). 

The description says “one for the jamming master” so perhaps it’s a lack of crack climbing skill rather than any issue with the grading system?

I thought every thread was about this.

Oh, you meant the OP, not the degeneration into name calling

I agree, I think I may have muddled my point in earlier comments.

Any grading system that has to cover such a variety of different styles and forms of climbing is going to seem completely different to each person. When I tried Climber's Club a long time ago it felt like an insurmountable challenge even though it was technically within my grade. I feel like this is a possible reason why many people have issues with the grading system. Too much specificity is expected from a system which has to cover so much variation. 

Either way I like British trad grades and have become pretty used to them. At the end of the day grades are a guide and a climb is as hard as it felt to you.

I mean obviously something that’s very height dependent will have to be graded differently for different climbers but I do think there is an element of objectivity in grading, even if it has to be as a result of consensus. I struggle with thin slab climbing and rock-overs, but that’s an indication that I need to get better at them not that the grading system is out of whack.

People have an issue with the grading system because it sucks to realise one can’t do something as well as the “average” climber operating at that grade! 

Do you have a lot of experience on granite and grit? If not then it could equally be holes in your climbing experience that are rightly being brought out in the open rather than any issue with grading. Your logbook doesn't have much in so I expect not complete but if all you do are slabby limestone HVSs then of course CCD is going to feel like the living end!

I haven't climbed much granite so I have to drop a grade unless it is a style I like. When I climbed grit first I was at least a grade off what I was doing on limestone. It wasn't that the grades were wrong (as I'm now probably the opposite and stronger on grit than lime), just that I was getting a pasting from a rock and technique I wasn't used to.