UKH

Right, here we go

What’s peoples opinions on trad climbing sport routes? 
If a sport climb can be climbed on trad gear should the bolts be chopped? Or at least covered up with tape or something for a trad ascent? (As to not be able to clip them, but leave them in for others to enjoy as a sport line). Particularly if it’s fairly bold, having the bolt there would make it way less committing  if you could clip them

Essentially, There’s this sport route Ive had a quick look at that will definitely go on gear, but don’t want to lead it and get a load of backlash for whatever reason. 

Cheers Tom

In reply to TomPearce63:

Tape up the bolts if you like to make your ascent more committing.

Chopping the bolts is a totally different question. You could be depriving people of a valued route, and just for your own pleasure. I'd usually say this is a selfish act, unless there is a reasonable consensus that it shouldn't have been bolted in the first place. 

In reply to TomPearce63:

I'd say do it in whatever fashion you want. Some will always find a way to criticise. If you're happy with it then who cares what others think 

In reply to TomPearce63:

Depends on the ethic of the crag I think. 

There were some routes at Gilwern, which were really popular and good sport routes, which turned out had 'secretly' been done as trad years before and the ethic is to respect the wishes of the first ascentionist, who wanted the lines to remain trad. The bolts were chopped and it's had maybe 1 or 2 leads and a handful of topropes off the adjacent route in the last 5 years. 

If it's a sport crag and removing the bolts will likely lead to it returning to obscurity, who really serves to benefit? There are plenty of sport routes that will go on gear (some even following cracks the whole way (Supercrack (Sport) (7a), Rattle Those Tusks (6b)). 

It's obviously a bit different if there aren't any nearby bolted routes or the ethic is generally trad (e.g. The Big Issue).

If it's a significant route, just ignore/tape up the bolts as others have said. If your ascent generates enough psych to get other people doing it this style then it may be worth revisiting whether it should be bolted. 

In reply to TomPearce63:

Just do what you want, as long as you don't damage anything (particularly chopping the bolts lol).

In reply to TomPearce63:

Pretty pointless particularly in this country where there's loads of trad routes.

Lower grade sport climbs could always be climbed in trad style by many, and middle grade sports routes by a fair few ect..... but it's not the criteria. We seem to have settled on a sensible venue based consensus.

Interesting issue this one, and I was discussing this just the other day with a potential "retro-tradder"

I think if the route is an established sport route, it would be quite pointless to headpoint the funk out of it, solo/lead on trad gear and chop the bolts. You could potentially de-gear alot of good mid-grade sport around the country like this! Clearly some routes will make decent trad routes and I think this could be an interesting approach, on a route for route basis.

(The two routes given as examples above, Supercrack and Rattle Those Tusks, are slightly different in that they follow strong crack lines and were originally trad routes. There is a very strong case to remove the bolts on these. That's another debate.)

If you are going to lead something on marginal gear / big fall potential then you definitely want to remove the temptation to just clip a bolt. The problem with taping hangars is that it is still pretty easy to ram a quick draw through them if you get gripped. You could remove the hangars but it would still be possible to loop a wire over and lower off, or grab it and ask for rescue.

I recently made a prototype steel plate 'bolt-blocker' that clamps over a plate hangar, tightened with just a small adjustable spanner - no chance of clipping or even grabbing a bolt with one of these on. I'm going to try and get some more made when I have the time. Tom, if you send me a photo of the hangars in question I can make some specifically for you.

Mark

In reply to TomPearce63:

Surely any sport line can be climbed in a trad style. Some may just end up being solos. And most extremely bold.

Do what you like so long as you dont damage the bolts. You can even loop your fingers through a bolt so long as you dont touch it... as per Honnold on Free Rider... if you're so inclined.

In reply to TomPearce63:  Ultimately you can do what you want as long as it doesn't hurt others.... you won't be the first person to do this.

If you don't at least tape over the bolts then it's pretty pointless .

More seriously if you turn up and solo a whole bunch of 5's, and then chop the bolts, you'll discover it's a fine line between visionary and egotistical a-hole , and that's being polite.  Ditto top roping something to death and leading without clipping the bolts

In reply to TomPearce63:

Or you could clip half the bolts and place gear inbetween and so do it as a hybrid route.

In reply to TomPearce63:

What grade we talking E11 / E12?

Pretty much any sport route would go with one piece of gear in it. 

In reply to TomPearce63:

youtube.com/watch?v=-TeTejh1ebs&

In reply to TomPearce63:

I led a sport route on trad the other day, I just ignored the bolts.  No issues. I don't understand why taping over bolts is required, if you decide to climb on trad, then climb it in trad style.  It's all your decision.   It's quite nice to have the choice of style on some routes. 

In reply to mrjonathanr:

I quite enjoyed watching that, but it does seem a bit pointless with all those bolts there (but then again which bit of climbing isn't pointless).

However, he must have got something out of doing that route trad, otherwise why would he have bothered.

In reply to TomPearce63:

Where I live, in Red Rocks, there are loads of routes that have unnecessary bolts. I've done quite a lot of routes where I've skipped bolts (as many as 20 in some cases, https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105920684/the-nightcrawler), usually in a quasi onsight fashion where I might have done a route in the past but without much memory of the detail, except maybe for an impression that I could probably do it on gear.
In general, I feel that some of the comments upthread re-taping over bolts aren't correct, at least not for me. If you're really committed to doing the route on gear you're not even thinking about the bolts although that is probably a reflection of the fact that most of the routes that I've done this way have gear thats at least adequate.

 

In reply to Michael Hood:

A set of cams, maybe?

In reply to TomPearce63:

Pet project, fine. Significant ascent? Not for me. Empath on gear? Meh.

In reply to TomPearce63:

Aye, cheers for the comments. 

I agree, chopping the bolts is just not right, ruins it for loads of people. Some tape over the bolt would at least stop a panic clip most likely, and in terms of ethics its way better.

Maybe a new grade is to be invented? 'French 7c Taped Bolts on Trad Gear' ah whatever, only a personal project anyways! Never going to be a classic!

Mark- Those sound class like, you'll have to show me them sometime, but to be fair, this route I'm on about is not major enough to require custom bolt blockers! So thank you for the suggestion but I'll have to pass. Do they cover the entire bolt then? Like even stop it as a good hand hold?