Speed records at Idwal

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 Sam B 21 Aug 2022

Does anyone know if the three theological virtues routes at  Idwal Slabs (aka Cwm Idwal) (i.e. Hope (VD)Faith (VD) and Charity (S) ) have ever been done to time?

I recently climbed them as a high-speed linkup, and I'm trying to find out if there's a record and how my time compares.

It took 2h 10m to do the three climbs and three descents over the scramble and down the back on the left. I'd been waiting for quite some time for drought-like weather conditions, as Hope and Charity both sometimes have a bit of running water on them, which I didn't think would help the general effort. There is definitely room to do them a fair bit faster than that, especially with better cardio fitness. I'd be interested to hear if there's a record.

Thanks very much for any help anyone can give.

88
 Michael Hood 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

Almost certainly quicker to descend The Ordinary Route (D), and I'm sure someone will have done all 3 and back down in well under an hour.

In reply to Sam B:

No. No no no. This shit starts and ends in the olympics.

12
 SouthernSteve 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> No. No no no. This shit starts and ends in the olympics.

I agree. Speed polishing is not needed here as people throw themselves at routes that are iconic early climbs or great easy mountain days out.

11
 Jim blackford 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

Record is definately under an hour

 C Witter 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

And even quicker to downclimb one of the routes...!

4
 Darkinbad 21 Aug 2022
In reply to C Witter:

Surely parapente is the way to go...

 Andy Clarke 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Darkinbad:

> Surely parapente is the way to go...

I should think seated glissade (steel tray or similar) onto a big pile of mats would be the quickest.

 Jim Lancs 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

I don't even think Mary, (the President's daughter), would be impressed with 2hrs 10 minutes.

Said Mary, "It's only a toss-up Between you and Reginald Hake, And the man I am going to marry Must perform some great deed for my sake. I will marry whichever bold climber Shall excel at the following feat: Climb head first down Hope, with no rubbers or rope, At our very next Climbers Club meet!"

When Showell Styles was taking the piss out of such stunts in the 1950s, I'm not sure we should resurrect them 70 years later.

3
In reply to Sam B:

This sort of thing should be reserved for indoor walls.  IMO there is no place for it in trad climbing although I am not averse to quick ascents.  I have done all 3 by climbing 2 and down climbing 1.  I can't remember the order nor the time as I was not timing as such but I suspect it was well under an hour.  I'm only saying this to discourage you from this mindset by demonstrating that you are no where near.

20
 PaulJepson 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

A better record on Idwal would be the number of things you see punters drop during a single ascent. Last weekend I counted 3 belay devices, a cam and a 2ltr bottle of water. 

12
 wbo2 21 Aug 2022
In reply to all and sundry - what's so wrong about this as a speed link up? Plenty of other around , even in the world of trad climbing

Not a particularly good one - polished , too popular in good conditions , but the fact it's pretty straightforward and you can downclimb a route makes it a candidate for a silly fast time

10
 freeheel47 21 Aug 2022
In reply to PaulJepson:

we are all 'punters'

4
 DaveHK 21 Aug 2022
In reply to wbo2:

> In reply to all and sundry - what's so wrong about this as a speed link up?

Nothing wrong with doing it as an individual, quite a few things wrong with the organised keeping and chasing of records like that.

8
 TobyA 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> This sort of thing should be reserved for indoor walls.  IMO there is no place for it in trad climbing although I am not averse to quick ascents.  I have done all 3 by climbing 2 and down climbing 1. 

So what you are saying is this shouldn't be done except for by you because you're much better than the OP?

20
In reply to PaulJepson:

> A better record on Idwal would be the number of things you see punters drop during a single ascent. Last weekend I counted 3 belay devices, a cam and a 2ltr bottle of water. 

An even better record would be how many bits of cragswag collected after a busy bank holiday weekend.

4
 ExiledScot 21 Aug 2022
In reply to pancakeandchips:

> An even better record would be how many bits of cragswag collected after a busy bank holiday weekend.

Tremadag, tues 30th on any of the classics would be better for swag, road side climbing for faster get aways on BH Monday... 

Note: May or Easter would be better as more people are a little ring rusty after winter. 

In reply to TobyA:

> So what you are saying is this shouldn't be done except for by you because you're much better than the OP?

I thought GR was saying don't go climbing with fastest ascent in mind, hence the bit about not remembering exactly how long it took; it wasn't important or noteworthy.

1
In reply to TobyA:

> So what you are saying is this shouldn't be done except for by you because you're much better than the OP?

No you said that and it's a ridiculous and argumentative conclusion to jump to.  He can do whatever he wants, I'm simply expressing my opinion that formal speed climbing has no place in UK trad.  I did say I am not averse to quick ascents. If he wants to go and climb them in less than 15 minutes I don't care but I do not like the idea of formalised competition on UK trad which his comments imply. My example was simply in answer to his question.

Post edited at 11:03
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 Kemics 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

I fully support fierce and absolutely arbitrary competition. 

This is no different to the wideboyz et al doing the 'staffordshire nose' challenge etc and everyone (rightly) loved it.  

2
In reply to TobyA:

If you had watched the Jordan Peterson/Cathy Newman interview you would never again start a sentence with "So what you are saying is"

13
 wbo2 21 Aug 2022
In reply to wbo2:

If you are saying that my opinion is outdated and obsolete you may well be correct but it doesn't change it one iota.

One of the things that attracted me to climbing was that there were no winners and no losers so I think my views are understandable.

Post edited at 12:08
3
 biscuit 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Quite right! Before we know it people will be trying to set speed records in the greater ranges, trying to do the Lakes/Welsh classic rock routes faster than everyone else or people might even link up big faces in Yosemite as fast as they can.

It's just not cricket. I can only imagine the outcry and general despair if anyone tried any of those arbitrary challenges. I would certainly expect the climbing media to pillory them and not write articles praising them. 

3
 seankenny 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> This sort of thing should be reserved for indoor walls.  IMO there is no place for it in trad climbing

Maybe worth having a go at that Honnold bloke, he seems partial to this sort of thing. Tell him there is no place for his antics in trad climbing. Also Caldwell too indulges, we should tell him what’s what. And what about timed Fontainebleau circuits? Just because Pierre Alain had a shoe and a crack named after him doesn’t mean we can’t indulge in some retrospective bashing for turning the sublime kinaesthetic poetry of the Forest into a tawdry speed track!

The possibilities for this kind of righteous sniffing are only limited by the apparent knavery of our sport’s top practitioners.
 

3
 mk one 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Jim Lancs:

I do like the fun attitude of older times though. In an old Ogwen guide i have it describes one of the traverses of the slab as best done in a large party, on a busy day and with a picnic to enjoy on the various belay ledges along the way

In reply to seankenny:

I'm not "having a go" at anyone.  I'm expressing a personal opinion.  Not sure what makes it self righteous, perhaps you would care to explain.

Opinion: a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge

Personally I always found climbing a welcome break from the consumerism and the concept of there being a winner and a loser present in most other aspects of life. Is that being self righteous? 

Post edited at 14:12
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 seankenny 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Hans Florine and the Huber brothers all lost their Nose speed records. They are such losers at climbing! 

3
 Mark Haward 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

I am not aware that there is a record. I presume you were leading / trad climbing?!? I remember soloing those three routes plus Tennis Shoe, each time descending the Ordinary Route, in around two hours in the 80s but I've never bothered to time myself on routes apart from in the Alps and when trying to improve climbing efficiency / speed.

 Robert Durran 21 Aug 2022
In reply to biscuit:

> Quite right! Before we know it people will be trying to set speed records in the greater ranges, trying to do the Lakes/Welsh classic rock routes faster than everyone else or people might even link up big faces in Yosemite as fast as they can.

They already are. And it's bollocks too.

18
In reply to seankenny:

> Hans Florine and the Huber brothers all lost their Nose speed records. They are such losers at climbing! 

I don't care but beyond that I haven't made any judgement so that comment is meaningless.

9
In reply to Sam B:

> Does anyone know if the three theological virtues routes at  Idwal Slabs (aka Cwm Idwal) (i.e. Hope (VD)Faith (VD) and Charity (S) ) have ever been done to time?

You should try and do them all in winter. Call it "Project Achievable" or something. Netflix might pick it up

1
 Tyler 21 Aug 2022
In reply to seankenny:

> Hans Florine and the Huber brothers all lost their Nose speed records. They are such losers at climbing! 

You really got him good by pointing out that some pretty well known climbers are doing speed records in Yosemite! Unless he doesn’t think much to of them either which I suspect might be the case.

3
 profitofdoom 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Clarke:

> I should think seated glissade (steel tray or similar) onto a big pile of mats would be the quickest.

Any idea how fast you would be going on a steel tray at the bottom? Pretty fast I think. Can I suggest a pile of 60 mats if you try*

*PS, disclaimer, don't try. I once went down an artificial ski slope on a beer tray [this is not a joke] and cracked a bone in my hand at the bottom**

**PPS, not my finest hour

 Greenbanks 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

In case this has not already been called, I'd say this all belongs under the nearest bridge to the Slabs.

5
 Andy Clarke 21 Aug 2022
In reply to profitofdoom:

Maybe would-be record breakers could simply run back down the slab in between the routes? I managed to stay upright all the way back down the admittedly rather shorter Fir Tree Slab at Avon, having failed in a solo attempt within millimetres of the top. My mate fended me off from a waiting tree at the bottom, like a goalkeeper turning a shot round the post. I didn't break anything but there wasn't much I didn't bruise. Limped out looking like a large disconsolate prune.

Post edited at 15:58
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 PaulJepson 21 Aug 2022
In reply to biscuit:

I quite like the idea of the big linkups (like lakes/wales classic rock etc.) because most of the time won or lost is in the logistics and travel between the routes. Not so keen on the idea of racing up and down 3 routes in the same place, as it encourages fast and reckless climbing/soloing. 

3
 Clwyd Chris 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

And there's me thinking my time of 2hrs and 15 minutes would never be broken, just shows you how wrong you can be, I'm wounded, in fact I would go as far as to say I've been  sick with worry during this dry spell some one was going to beat my record 

 seankenny 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> I don't care but beyond that I haven't made any judgement so that comment is meaningless.

Look, there's what one writes. And then, there is what can be infered or implied from what one writes. I'm merely following through on the implications of your comments.

As for climbing being an escape for consumerism, would this be the sport where people go to browse shops on wet days? One whose leading practitioners have been sponsored by everyone from apparel companies to breweries? One that has had a cadre of professional practitioners since the 19th century - in fact for longer than many sports have even existed?

1
In reply to seankenny:

> Look, there's what one writes. And then, there is what can be infered or implied from what one writes. I'm merely following through on the implications of your comments.

You have a habit of drawing the wrong conclusions I'm afraid.

> As for climbing being an escape for consumerism, would this be the sport where people go to browse shops on wet days? One whose leading practitioners have been sponsored by everyone from apparel companies to breweries? One that has had a cadre of professional practitioners since the 19th century - in fact for longer than many sports have even existed?

It wasn't like that back in the 60's and even well into the 70's when it all felt very primitive and innocent. There were very few climbing shops.  The 80's were however were a period of big changes with regard to what we are discussing.

I'm still a little confused as to why I am being placed into a position of defending what is simply an opinion and a declaration of my personal preferences.

Post edited at 19:05
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 Trangia 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

> I recently climbed them as a high-speed linkup, and I'm trying to find out if there's a record and how my time compares.

Would that be blindfold? Rock shoes or bare feet?

 seankenny 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> You have a habit of drawing the wrong conclusions I'm afraid.

So you think the speed ascents of Honnold, Caldwell, Hubers et al are an impressive and interesting aspect of the climbing game?

> It wasn't like that back in the 60's and even well into the 70's when it all felt very primitive and innocent. There were very few climbing shops.  The 80's were however were a period of big changes with regard to what we are discussing.

That was the era of the expeditions sponsored by Barclay’s Bank, or with in-situ teams from ITN in attendance, or TV live broadcasts from Hoy, etc etc? And guides have existed for 200 years. It’s also worth pointing about that the early 1980s is 40 years ago so this “commercialism” is hardly new even if it started then (which it didn’t).

> I'm still a little confused as to why I am being placed into a position of defending what is simply an opinion and a declaration of my personal preferences.

No one’s forcing you to post on the internet old chap. 
 

Anyhow wait till you see this:

https://amzn.eu/d/51CZzS0
Making cash and moving fast; Hans Florine is going straight to hell!

Post edited at 20:14
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 ExiledScot 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

You can always go for the vector challenge instead, if anybody does this still, pyb bar, vector and back in a hour. 

2
 Mick Ward 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

One lovely summer evening in the 1990s when the Slabs were deserted, I soloed Ordinary Route, Faith, Hope, Charity and Tennis Shoe, descending by the Ordinary Route each time. (N.B. The top pitch of Tennis Shoe seemed polished and insecure even then, wouldn't recommend this as a solo.) 

Have no idea of the time. Wasn't in any kind of a rush but still moving fast, just for the fun of it. Would be surprised though if the time wasn't significantly faster. 

However... there's a roughly equivalent route in the Mournes, a 500 foot V Diff slab route. It was my first lead; it took me all day and it was joyous. A day to remember always. 

Subsequently, in the 70s, it was soloed in less than ten minutes and later on I used to really motor on it. What I found was that going against the clock, the experience seemed empty. Can't remember the times now but they were fast. 

For me, going fast for the sheer fun of it was great; but logging the times killed it stone dead. 

My last visit up FM took all day again (a novice, a very short rope and another person) but was also wonderful.

My feeling is that, whether fast or slow, sod the time and revel in the experience.  

mick 

OP Sam B 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Mick Ward:

Thank you Mick, that's an interesting way to think about it Seems worth bearing in mind

 Bananarama 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

I did all of those routes plus tennis shoe in less than 2 hours.  Pretty easy when running out the pitches to full 60 metre rope lengths and placing minimal gear.

OP Sam B 21 Aug 2022
In reply to wbo2:

The idea of down-climbing one of the routes is an interesting one, thanks for that! Might do that the next time I'm in the area. Tbh doing the scrambling above and running down the path makes it a completely different circuit, so the times wouldn't be comparable, but it's a nice idea. Thank you!  

1
OP Sam B 21 Aug 2022
In reply to TobyA:

I think all the nastiness here is my fault tbh. It's been a long time since I've used UKC, and I may have forgotten what it can be like here. Serves me right for asking a question!

Still, it seems half the trolls think I shouldn't have done it fast, and the other half think I should have done it twice as fast. Maybe that means my time was perfect???

2
OP Sam B 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Bananarama:

Oh that's really cool!

OP Sam B 21 Aug 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

I'm sure it would have been quicker, that's a good idea. Thank you! I did enjoy the scrambling too though

I also like the fact your idea doesn't involve running down the stoney path - that was the only bit that had me worried lol

Post edited at 21:47
1
In reply to seankenny:

Speed ascents are impressive, I'm not denying that, but I don't think that is it a good idea that someone who climbs at V.Diff should be focussed on that. I did state that I was not against fast ascents so all the mentions of those are irrelevant in the context of my post. 

My experience of climbing in the 60's was one of a less commercialised more primitive game, anyone around at that time will confirm that it was. 

Captain Paranoia understood what I was saying so I'm not sure why so many others are having difficulty. 

What I do not like is the idea of timed events on UK trad. That's about the sum of it.

Post edited at 08:33
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 TobyA 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Oh come on Mr Rubberpants, your original answer was just classic Rocktalk - perhaps even Peak-UKC - in that you got some climbing ethics judgementalism against the OP's position and a humblebrag about being better all in one post. 

I just felt that such fine forum-work should not go unrecognised.

7
 jezb1 22 Aug 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> You can always go for the vector challenge instead, if anybody does this still, pyb bar, vector and back in a hour. 

In an hour…?

Good luck with even the driving bit!

 James0101 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

Some of the N.Wales scrambles are logged on Strava. For example here is the Dolmen Ridge. This could be a good way to log it if you wanted to record your route
https://www.strava.com/segments/28983768?filter=overall

I think this would compare to some of the more technical fell running challenges such as the Ben Nevis five ridges. https://www.gomountaingoats.com/ben-nevis-5-ridges

1
In reply to TobyA:

It's a shame you read it like that but I have to admit longsufferingropeholders response was far better. No. No no no. This shit starts and ends in the olympics.

I could have worded it better and it may have been a tiny little bit judgemental but your response was typical UKC mis-representation, mis-quoting and taking out of context. As were many other responses which were irrelevant to the context of my comments.  It's as if some people have trouble with reading and comprehension. Does "humblebrag" apply when one posts anonymously? Not sure how Gaston can brag he doesn't exist and therefore cannot get kudos out of it.

It's all little academic my last post summarised my thoughts on the matter as no one was addressing what I actually said.  I felt it necessary to explain in simple terms. In case you once again missed it: What I do not like is the idea of timed events on UK trad. That's about the sum of it.

I did not in any way dismiss fast ascents so all of the comments mentioning thiose simply illustrate some peoples lack of understanding of this. Again it's typical UKC trying to change the context in order to score points.

What I do not like is the idea of timed events on UK trad. That's about the sum of it. Why don't you debate that point instead of sarcastic point scoring?

Post edited at 12:03
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 TobyA 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

From your first post:

> "I'm only saying this to discourage you from this mindset by demonstrating that you are no where near. "

I'm not sure what that is if it is not a humblebrag. You are very much against this sort of thing, but rather good at it all the same.

3
In reply to TobyA:

And you still insist on avoiding the topic and being sarcastic.  Why can't we have a civilised discussion? I've already conceded that I could have worded it better why can't you move on?

6
 TobyA 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Do you object to the running rounds of the Classic Rock routes then? I don't think I do... I guess at worse, it's someone competent climbing past you. I imagine the folk who have done it are quite diplomatic if they do need to get past a team.

2
In reply to TobyA:

I don't object to someone climbing faster than me but I would DISLIKE it if they were competing in an organised event. I thought I had made that clear! I dislike organised events NOT fast climbers.

Post edited at 12:53
 deacondeacon 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

I'd be surprised if it hadn't been done in under an hour. Tbh 45 minutes seems reasonable

2
 TobyA 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

What about this sort of thing? Very organized but I guess not an event? But just like speed ascents in Yosemite as Sean mentioned earlier. https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2022/08/shane_ohly_smashes_the_lakes_classi...

1
In reply to TobyA:

I've no feelings one way or the other. If A wants to go out and climb a route quicker than B good luck to him as long as it does not adversly impact anyone else. My fear is that "competition" encourages competition climbing which may overflow onto trad crags which will in turn impact on others.

Post edited at 15:40
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 seankenny 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> What I do not like is the idea of timed events on UK trad.

U.K. trad is purer than Yosemite trad, Patagonia trad, Chamonix trad. Taking five hours on Great Slab is more soulful climbing than Haston doing a score of 7a-7c routes in a day at Ceuse. 
 

All these sentiments - and the like of Mick Ward’s up above - are only trotted out to normal climbers asking innocent questions. Funny how they never pop up when Tom Randall breaks the record for the Every E6 Put Up By Charlton Chestwig Challenge, climbing all 14 routes in 3 hours whilst dressed as a pomegranate. We cheer on Pete Whittaker when he does the first solo of Troll Wall in 27 minutes whilst wearing leather chaps, heck we buy the book and the lecture tickets. These guys are all over social media, go and tell them what climbing is really all about!

5
 Philip 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> I don't object to someone climbing faster than me but I would DISLIKE it if they were competing in an organised event. I thought I had made that clear! I dislike organised events NOT fast climbers.

Why all this prejudice against SLOW climbers. Sounds like what you're trying to impose is a minimum speed limit on the popular crags.

:-P

In reply to seankenny:

I could not care less what others do as long as it does not impact on my experience and I would most certainly not presume to dictate to others what theirs should be even though I am happy to point out that there is more to climbing than speed to someone who appears to be a novice, especially if this could give rise to safety concerns.  I see it as personal experience and not a spectator sport which it appears to be drifting towards when competition is brought into the equation. The experience I like is the non competitive, non spectator one and I can't imagine anything more boring than watching a competition. But as I keep pointing out that's my personal opinion, nothing more nothing less.

5
In reply to Philip:

> Why all this prejudice against SLOW climbers. Sounds like what you're trying to impose is a minimum speed limit on the popular crags.

Sorry that's far too subtle for me to follow your logic or your point.

Post edited at 16:13
1
 jon 22 Aug 2022
In reply to profitofdoom:

> I once went down an artificial ski slope on a beer tray 

The landlord of the Savoy Bar in Argentère back in the 80s 'trayed' the Vallée Blanche to silence the constant braying of VB skiers in his bar. The tray hung on the wall with an explanation...

 David Bowler 22 Aug 2022
In reply to seankenny:

"Taking five hours on Great Slab".

Have you been reading my logbook?

 Robert Durran 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

If people want to go and climb stuff fast for their own satisfaction or in friendly rivalry then I can't see any objections to it really. However, I don't think any of it will ever be any more than a footnote in climbing's history. 

What is significant is how speed climbing has motivated and refined techniques and attitudes which have made possible climbs which would probably have otherwise been impossible. The use of tactics developed in Yosemite to do the Fitzroy traverse is probably a prime example.

Or, at a more accessible level, linking up a load of routes in Idwal efficiently might be good training for a punter in the Alps.

 seankenny 22 Aug 2022
In reply to David Bowler:

> "Taking five hours on Great Slab".

> Have you been reading my logbook?

)

Come on David you could do it in 4h 49m, I just know you have it in you!

1
In reply to Robert Durran:

Agreed and for alpine climbing speed is a matter of safety and not just breaking records.

Post edited at 16:41
2
 Philb1950 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Within reason

 Iamgregp 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I'm not sure how the OP racing up the slabs then asking around if anyone knows what the record is impacts on your experience?

Maybe if there were hundreds of people racing up the thing on any day with clear weather, but it's not, it's just one guy and like Robert says, it's never likely to be more than a footnote in climbing history. 

It might not be your cup of tea, nor mine really, but live and let live.  We all play this game by different rules anyway.

4
 ExiledScot 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

I bet there are many here who have tried to do x number of routes in the peak in a day, so many thousand feet, E points, all the classics, hard rock, all the routes on a crag etc... I have, staying roped up, take in a few coils and leg it around. It just happens one person asked how others faired after what they felt was a good personal performance.  

1
 beardy mike 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

>My fear is that "competition" encourages competition climbing which may overflow onto trad crags which will in turn impact on others.

Do you understand how competition speed climbing works? Unless you bolt specific holds to a rock face and then time the ascent of these holds, I fail to see how this would actually happen? Maybe it's a misunderstanding of how speed climbing works in competition? Speed climbing as in speed records for a given route or set of routes is massively different to competition speed climbing and I very much doubt we would ever see anything like what happens in Yosemite simply because there are really no routes which are iconic enough in the UK to give enough of a **** about for anyone to actually bother. If someone wants to compete at how quickly they can get up Idwal slabs, who cares? It's a bit of harmless fun and no, it's not going to lead to competition speed climbing - that's a totally ridiculous notion. Maybe you were talking about standard lead climbing spilling over? But even then, it's a bit late for that seeing as competition lead climbing has been around for decades and the "spill over" is other wise known as sport climbing...

That the OP might be way off the mark is irrelevant - he's just having a bit of fun and as long as he's not dangerous, again, who cares?

Post edited at 18:49
2
 Dave Todd 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> I'm still a little confused as to why I am being placed into a position of defending what is simply an opinion and a declaration of my personal preferences.

The OP asked if anyone knew of any existing record for these ascents, to which you decided to reply beginning 'This sort of thing should be reserved for indoor walls.  IMO there is no place for it in trad climbing...'

You've continued to post (15 posts so far) to reiterate your opinion.

This is why (IMHO) you're copping some flak.

Post edited at 18:53
2
In reply to Dave Todd:

> The OP asked if anyone knew of any existing record for these ascents, to which you decided to reply beginning 'This sort of thing should be reserved for indoor walls.  IMO there is no place for it in trad climbing...'

> You've continued to post (15 posts so far) to reiterate your opinion.

> This is why (IMHO) you're copping some flak.

So presumably those people have no issue with speed climbing on trad climbs in which case there is no more to be said. They have their opinion I have mine, but to be fair most of my arguments were countering the assumption that some had made that I was opposed to climbing fast. Apparently unsuccessfully.

7
 Dave Todd 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> in which case there is no more to be said.

That would probably be the best course of action.

4
 seankenny 22 Aug 2022
In reply to Mick Ward:

> Subsequently, in the 70s, it was soloed in less than ten minutes and later on I used to really motor on it. What I found was that going against the clock, the experience seemed empty. Can't remember the times now but they were fast. 

> For me, going fast for the sheer fun of it was great; but logging the times killed it stone dead. 

> My feeling is that, whether fast or slow, sod the time and revel in the experience.  

Those telling the OP off should - in the name of fairness - also deliver their wisdom and opinions below this news item lauding two of the UK’s top climbers:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/ukc/tom_randall_and_pete_whittaker_break_...

OP Sam B 23 Aug 2022
In reply to James0101:

Thanks for the suggestions!

 McHeath 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Darkinbad:

> Surely parapente is the way to go...

Helicopter would be quicker

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> So presumably those people have no issue with speed climbing on trad climbs in which case there is no more to be said. They have their opinion I have mine, but to be fair most of my arguments were countering the assumption that some had made that I was opposed to climbing fast. Apparently unsuccessfully.

Ok boomer 😂

4
In reply to Mick Ward:

Hi Mick, how you doin?

We had a spell of soloing mountain routes whenever we were out in Wales in the ‘80s for the craic. We never logged the times as such, but on the day we’d set off separated by a couple of minutes and really it was about catching up/leaving behind. Really great fun, Amphitheatre Buttress sticks out in my memory, made more interesting soloing around people and great for a day off!

paul

 Andy Hardy 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

> Thanks for the suggestions!

I reckon roller skates and boxing gloves are due a revival

 Philb1950 23 Aug 2022
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Obviously takes one to know one

 Philb1950 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Jim Lancs:

A verse from the ballad of Idwal slabs

In reply to Philb1950:

Yes it does!

 Mick Ward 23 Aug 2022
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Hi Paul,

Great to hear from you. Am bimbling along, as usual. (You're probably doing hard bouldering.) 

That's a good idea. I've pretty much always soloed mountain routes on my own; would be more fun with others. 

Amphitheatre Buttress - the one that got away. Have always yearned for a day or two over there, ticking the classics. 

Keep the fire burning!

Mick 

 Mick Ward 23 Aug 2022
In reply to seankenny:

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you. 

I hope I wasn't trying to tell Sam off; would be somewhat hypocritical, given I did the same thing multiple times! What I found though was that it didn't work for me (but might for others?) Just another perspective... which Sam seems to have appreciated. 

Speed records are simply not my cup of tea, no matter who does them. Same with dry tooling. Equally I'm sure not many would share my erstwhile fascination with soloing - and, at times, hard soloing. Or scary new routing antics. Climbing is a broad church, no?

Something else. Whymper wisely noted, 'Do nothing in haste...'  Having lost so many mates and acquaintances, I've long felt that no route is worth dying for. 

One of the guys who briefly held the Nose record reckoned it was the most committing climbing he'd ever done (and he was no stranger to committing climbing!) Didn't Caldwell take a 100 foot whipper off it? When the time came below two hours I felt relieved, hoping there would be far fewer attempts. Because it was getting ever more probable that someone would die. 

And dying for a speed record? That would be a real bummer. 

Mick 

1
 PaulJepson 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Mick Ward:

Yeah they were taking risks. I remember in the film that Gobright and Reynolds were taking big risks to set their time and they made quite a big deal about how Caldwell wouldn't run out the bootflake, after Quinn Brett paralysed herself on it, even though the cleaning of it was a logistical nightmare. 

 Michael Hood 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Mick Ward:

> And dying for a speed record? That would be a real bummer. 

At least they'd die quickly

[Sorry - couldn't resist]

2
 Andy Moles 24 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

On this matter the Olds should be firmly ignored.

It may be a slightly naff speed challenge but if someone wants to establish a FKT for it, they should go ahead.

Climbing is an arbitrary game at the best of times, and if people want to play at it by competing to do easy things as fast as they can, it hardly affects the vast majority who will continue to climb at a more sedate pace.

As for polish on the Idwal Slabs - seriously? The stable door is rotting in the next field.

1
 jon 24 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Moles:

> On this matter the Olds should be firmly ignored.

Here, less of the plural there!!! Strange, The Old in question bears an uncanny resemblance to someone who used to be on here. Can't remember his name now...

 Andy Moles 24 Aug 2022
In reply to jon:

Sorry, very ageist of me!

 CantClimbTom 24 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Moles:

At first I was, to my shame... going to write a mildly grumpy post pointing out how the Nose or Eiger N face or whatever speed in large part demonstrated the technical mastery of the climbers against the enormous challenge... blah blah blah...

But after reading your post it changed my opinion --> you're right! Why the heck not?

If OP wants to pursue a speed record of this or anything else that makes them happy, as long as it doesn't impact others then we should celebrate it.. someone enjoying themself! How can anyone against that.

Sure, it's not my cup of tea, but it's OP's cup of tea by the sound of it. Sam B, go for it and enjoy 

Just stay safe on that polished rock

FWIW... On the subject of the "olds". I don't think old in calendar years has anything to do with this, but perhaps old in attitude does though 

Post edited at 08:45
 Andy Moles 24 Aug 2022
In reply to CantClimbTom:

> FWIW... On the subject of the "olds". I don't think old in calendar years has anything to do with this, but perhaps old in attitude does though 

Amen!

In reply to GastonR.

Gaston was Doug Lord of the Roaches present when you made your triple ascent?

In reply to Sam B:

> Does anyone know if the three theological virtues routes at  Idwal Slabs (aka Cwm Idwal) (i.e. Hope (VD)Faith (VD) and Charity (S) ) have ever been done to time?

No, it seems that no one does.

Sounds fun, good effort

 petemeads 24 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

I'm just glad you chose to ascend each route and not downclimb one of them - reversing/downclimbing is just not on in my book, even though it is a skill worth cultivating it is not climbing the route as described. Anyone who sets out to do multi-route challenges and then counts climbs done in reverse is a cheat and a scoundrel, in my book. Other opinions are available...

4
In reply to petemeads:

> I'm just glad you chose to ascend each route and not downclimb one of them - reversing/downclimbing is just not on in my book, even though it is a skill worth cultivating it is not climbing the route as described. Anyone who sets out to do multi-route challenges and then counts climbs done in reverse is a cheat and a scoundrel, in my book. Other opinions are available...

Didn't 'Big Ron' do his 100 (was it more?) E points in a day with some downclimbed routes?

I'll leave it to you to tell him your opinion!

1
 ExiledScot 25 Aug 2022
In reply to petemeads:

Grade for grade down climbing is harder, surely they should have more kudos?

 Offwidth 25 Aug 2022
In reply to PaulJepson:

I was coincidentally on The Nose on one of Gobright and Reynolds' practice runs; waking up at the base of the Great Roof pitch.  I've seen a lot of out-of-control climbing in my time and read about and listened to debates about decisions on major range ascents that seemed hard to justify but those two looked totally in control to me and were even joking as they shot past us.

I think as climbers we should take care about labelling on risk. We all roll the dice.

 Offwidth 25 Aug 2022
In reply to petemeads:

Descents are normally a lot harder than ascents. Climbers should be honest about what they do but I really can't see it as cheating.

Post edited at 09:43
 GrahamD 25 Aug 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> Grade for grade down climbing is harder, surely they should have more kudos?

Not always.  At what point does dowclimbing start and a controlled jump onto mats begin ? Let's face it - routes aren't graded for a reverse, are they ?

 Fellover 25 Aug 2022
In reply to PaulJepson:

> Yeah they were taking risks. I remember in the film that Gobright and Reynolds were taking big risks to set their time and they made quite a big deal about how Caldwell wouldn't run out the bootflake, after Quinn Brett paralysed herself on it, even though the cleaning of it was a logistical nightmare.

Undeniable that Gobright and Reynolds were taking risks that most of us wouldn't be comfortable taking (simuling with no gear while monoing bolt hangers!!), but if we're honest Caldwell and Honnold were as well.

I was glad that they made a bit of a big deal about the cam in the boot (shows us normal people you can still think a bit about safety when trying to go fast), but I think it was probably a bit misleading about the safety approach they took - I'd be very surprised if there weren't other bits of the route where one of them was equally as runout above a ledge.

Aso, it's not really a logistical nightmare to clean one cam from the boot when lowering for the king swing, I'd imagine it would take me about 30 seconds and I'm sure Caldwell was faster than that. I did think the film hammed that up a bit. Though I suppose 30s is quite a large portion of 2 hours from a speed record perspective, so maybe it does count as a logistical nightmare in that scenario!

 Offwidth 25 Aug 2022
In reply to GrahamD:

Maybe on Burbage North first walls, but for the Idwal Slabs? I'd rather solo Tennis Shoe there (a scary HS lead in places)  than down solo any of those three classic VDs. I've varied lines on a few lead occasions on those routes due to weeps on bolder sections. 

 ian caton 25 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

As an aside one of my old Mountain mags said Jimmy jewel did left wall from the boulders and back in 30 mins. 

 ExiledScot 25 Aug 2022
In reply to GrahamD:

> Not always.  At what point does dowclimbing start and a controlled jump onto mats begin ? Let's face it - routes aren't graded for a reverse, are they ?

I was referring to proper climbing, not bouldering. (Lights fire and legs it)

 Andy Moles 25 Aug 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

I was on the slabs today and was imagining what it would be like to attempt this (because despite having said such a speed record was naff, I do love moving fast on that sort of ground), and concluded firstly that I'd want it really dry and secondly that I personally would go a lot slower than I would if it wasn't so polished. There's too much a lottery factor there to be sprinting on some of those footholds, especially in approach shoes. And it would definitely be more enjoyable to run around than to downclimb one of them.

 Michael Hood 25 Aug 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> Grade for grade down climbing is harder

I disagree - I think it only feels that way because we do relatively little of it - if we did down as much as up then it would surely feel easier since gravity would be our friend.

6
 ExiledScot 25 Aug 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

> I disagree - I think it only feels that way because we do relatively little of it - if we did down as much as up then it would surely feel easier since gravity would be our friend.

Yes, but no, it's all to do with eccentric muscle contraction, you're fighting gravity trying to accelerate you as you step or lower down. Recent studies have found similar results just walking downhill, where they built more muscle and burnt more calories than on the flat.

Down climbing is a good training tool for balance, coordination and foot work in itself. 

1
In reply to McHeath:

Nah a bungy cord at the top is the way to go for getting back down to climb next route.

 Offwidth 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

I downclimb a lot and disagree on Idwal routes. Gravity helps on some down climb moves, and more so for the experienced but weak. However, it can also work against us: some downward slab friction moves in particular have a possibility of going badly wrong thanks to gravity pulling us off balance due to momentum. I know this from trying to back off friction slabs carefully quite often... normally a tougher skill than continuing up unless the moves above are even harder. Moving to blind footholds that you haven't just moved off is also a big issue.

In reply to Michael Hood:

> I disagree - I think it only feels that way because we do relatively little of it - if we did down as much as up then it would surely feel easier since gravity would be our friend.

Downclimbing is the same as reversing move?

We've all done irreversible moves.

 wbo2 26 Aug 2022
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> We've all done irreversible moves.

Not at Idwal, on the three routes in question

 Michael Hood 26 Aug 2022
In reply to wbo2:

But I do agree with Offwidth that reversing routes on Idwal Slabs would be a tricky and unpleasant experience (except for Ordinary Route).

And in answer to DJD, I doubt we've done as many irreversible moves as moves we couldn't get up 😁

 Michael Hood 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

Been thinking about this, although reversing slabs might be difficult and unpleasant, I suspect it's mostly achievable.

But I wondered about mega steep sports routes, can these be reversed? The core strength required to get feet onto the necessary "footholds" would be immense, and reverse dynos would be a completely new skill set.

Anyway, I'd be happy to try down-climbing any route I can climb, as long as I'm leading 😁

Post edited at 08:26
 Offwidth 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

Of course it's achievable, just harder than going up on those classic Idwal VDs, even for practiced downclimbers. In contrast Ordinary is perfectly OK as a down solo at about the same grade for the experienced. 

On a segue from reverse dynos there are those amazing old films of rapid but controlled descents on grit.

 TheGeneralist 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Anyway, I'd be happy to try down-climbing any route I can climb, as long as I'm leading 😁

Michael Hood: "Were doing Hammer today. I'll lead the Scoop pitch"

Michael's Climbing Partner: "Yayyy"

MH: "We'll be downclimbing"

M'sP: "Gulp..."

Post edited at 09:00
 CantClimbTom 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

Maybe an entire route could be done as one giant "reverse dyno", only the once though

In reply to Sam B:

It was a while back (about 20 years ago and hazy) but there’s a nice continuation from the top of the slabs. I think it’s a severe called Lazarus. Then you’ve got some scrambling , grey slabs and seniors ridge to the summit of Glyder Fawr.  

In reply to wbo2:

> Not at Idwal, on the three routes in question

Possibly not but I didn't think the comment was intended to apply to only those routes.

In reply to Michael Hood:

> But I do agree with Offwidth that reversing routes on Idwal Slabs would be a tricky and unpleasant experience (except for Ordinary Route).

> And in answer to DJD, I doubt we've done as many irreversible moves as moves we couldn't get up 😁

I've definitely done more irreversible moves than ones I couldn't get up!

In all seriousness; truly irreversible moves are not that common but they are definitely 'a thing'.

Post edited at 10:41
 ExiledScot 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Currently Resting:

> It was a while back (about 20 years ago and hazy) but there’s a nice continuation from the top of the slabs. I think it’s a severe called Lazarus. Then you’ve got some scrambling , grey slabs and seniors ridge to the summit of Glyder Fawr.  

Yeah, lazarus, groove above and across to grey slab or arete, a quality excursion. 

 Andy Moles 28 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

Whether the OP was a troll or not, I decided this would be a fun thing after all and did it this evening, in a time of 44:40.

Proposed rules for anyone who wants to play: time starts with a foot on the ground, stops when you touch the flat boulder on the quartz ledge. You must also touch the boulder after each route.

I did the routes from left to right and down-climbed Ordinary Route twice, though it struck me afterwards you'd automatically save 10+ seconds by starting on Faith because you wouldn't have to walk along the bottom.

I could probably go a couple of minutes faster with no extra risk if I was more familiar with the routes, and I'm sure someone with better endurance could knock quite a few minutes off.

Climbing the routes this way was very enjoyable, the down-climbing less so (feels long!). You could add on Tennis Shoe and aim for under an hour, though more fun would be continuing up the Lazarus-Arete extension on the final lap and finishing on top of that.

1
 Andy Moles 28 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Moles:

P.S. when did someone scratch massive arrows and the word OFF to mark the easy way off? Am I having a total memory fail or is that quite new?

OP Sam B 30 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Moles:

Within the last couple of years. I believe the local MRT got a few callouts from people who couldn't find the way down

OP Sam B 30 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Moles:

That's amazing! Sounds like you had a good time

My circuit involved doing the scramble at the top and the decent block area three times, and changing shoes to run down the stony path on the left three times, but yours sounds like a lot more fun to me. More climbing and less faff! Really glad to hear you found climbing the routes enjoyable. I've never actually done the Ordinary Route in either direction, but I've always thought getting better at downclimbing wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Next time I'm at Idwal I'm totally doing your circuit. Am I right in thinking we're stopping the clock at the top, not at the bottom? Is that where this flat boulder is?

 Philb1950 30 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

Call out MRT because you can’t find way off Idwal. That would be pathetic 

7
 Andy Moles 30 Aug 2022
In reply to Sam B:

Yes, the flat boulder is on the quartzy ledge at the top of the routes, it's very distinctive (I think it's the only boulder on the ledge). Made sense to me to finish at the top as the fun bit is climbing the three classic routes, getting down is just a necessity to link them.

I decided on the downclimb rather than the scramble off because I wanted it to be purely climbing rather than running, and didn't want to switch out of rock shoes! Jogging back down would have the benefit of a bit of respite from consequence I guess, but I think it would take a few minutes longer each time because of the extra ascent.

Post edited at 16:46

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