UKH

I have become totally engrossed in this sad story about Said Belhaj and his supposed climbs.

https://www.rokblok.de/post/fame-is-a-bitch

youtube.com/watch?v=1iWs44bGfXo&

https://eveningsends.com/the-purge-lies-and-call-outs-in-climbing/

https://www.8a.nu/forum/news/belhaj-gives-details-and-has-belayers

 I am strongly of the opinion that the guy is lying (badly), his account of events sounds more like the story a school boy would tell than a professional athlete.  I find it sad and unbelievable that many people online are still defending this guy.

Even if his Action Directe belayer really has disappeared from all social media and is now totally uncontactable, Said could find the original messages they sent over Instagram.  This would vindicate his story completely, but he hasn't done it.

The reason I don't feel bad posting this is because even if I was totally wrong and he has indeed sent all of these routes, the guy needs this witch hunt as a kick up the ass.  He has been a professional climber for 2 decades but still cant be arsed to prop a mobile phone up to film the ascent (action direct can be filmed this way), or remember the name of or keep in contact with his belayer.  He claims multiple ascents of 9a or harder and doesn't have video proof of a single one,  if you cant find the time to film even one of these maybe you shouldn't be a sponsored climber. 

Maybe some people think that it is inappropriate to discuss this without concrete evidence, but I think it is important things like this are bought forward, there are many climbers out there with more talent but 0 sponsorship,  If Said has invented these ascents he is in effect stealing from these people.

Neither side has any evidence one way or the other but you are convinced? 
 

Did you read the bit in the evening sends article about his sponsors opinion?

I’m not defending either one of them, but I reckon the climbing daily episode probably summed it up best.

yes I read that, it has no bearing on weather or not he sent action directe,  His sponsors are unlikely to publicly criticise him no matter what they believe, it will be more sensible to just quietly drop him and comment as little as possible, obviously they don't want more attention being bought to this. 

The route he has been dreaming about since he first started climbing and he cant remember the name of his belayer!

I agree with the climbing daily comments about poor journalism from Hannes.

Okay, he makes a living from climbing but has it ever been the norm professionally or as a hobby to film or prove whether you’ve done something or not?

Can anyone prove they climbed anything, beyond their word or their belayers? Without film or photographs? 

Although his sponsors have kept very quiet about it all and probably won’t comment on whether they feel like he’s telling the truth or not until they absolutely have to, I liked their comment on they don’t sponsor him to climb routes of a certain difficulty or grade.

The whole situation has raised some interesting questions about trust and professionalism which I’m sure will make for some very interesting discussions but at the end of the day I don’t really care if he’s not telling the truth. It’s not going to change my climbing or the vast majority of others either.

I’m not sure why people have got so worked up in it all, it’s none of their business.

If you are not bothered whether he is telling the truth or not why bother to post.

Of course it matters. Climbing has always relied on people being honest about what they’ve done and how they did it. Once that’s gone what’s left.

Personal enjoyment? 

Who cares, he can tell the world he climbed Silence solo if he wants. If he has no proof and his sponsors don't care about it then more fool them. 

You’re missing the point

It’s Action Directe, it’s a claim like a sub 9.8 100 metres or 2.4 m high jump. You can’t just say you’ve done something incredible you have to prove it.

I admit I’m baffled by this, I know Said, I’ve belayed him and seen him climbing 8c with ease, he’s a truly great guy and had great times with him, yet it is plausible that he lied. I guess we’ll never know. He’s one of those climbers like Tim Emmett that can do many 8cs relatively easy but find 9a just impossible. Regardless, I always thought Said was a decent guy. 

Don't know the story and not interested. What I can say is that Said isn't your regular "pro athlete" more of a "lifer" obsessed climbing dude/hippy musician. That's why he is sponsored I guess, not only because he's one of hundreds of people who climbed 9a.

No, sorry. Its not one of those tedious bloody "sports" thingys - it's climbing. It's not a courtroom or a Daily Fail front page, either. 

Strange coincidence that this story off a claimed accent and missing / unknown belayer has happened before on the same route!

Have hundreds of people climbed 9a?

I’d have thought so.

jcm

Rubbish. 23 people have done AD publicly and many more routes of the same grade. Low single figures have jumped 2.4 metres.

jcm

this makes it all the more unpleasant!  If hes not even a climber who is truly sponsored for his hard climbing but more for his lifestyle, image and ethics and yet he still feels the need to lie about the grades he climbs!

Who are these hundreds? 

BEYOND the word of their belayers!!   This is exactly the point, no one would care that he doesn't have the video that's fine, its the fact that he cant even remember the belayer's name and has such a crazy story as to why the belayer now cant be contacted.  This combined with the fact that now some of his other hard ascents (PApichulo) don't have confirmed belayers.

because lying in this instance is a form of stealing, there is only so much sponsorship money to go around and Said is taking more than his fair share.  This is a particularly abhorrent type of stealing, this isn't some poor guy stealing a thing or two from Asda to make a better Christmas at home.  This is the opposite, this is someone who has had the incredible opportunities of a traveling  pro climber for the last 2 decades (privilege doesn't get bigger imo) rather than accept that maybe he has had his fair share of the good times and money he has begun to lie about his ascents and steal the sponsorship opportunities from younger climbers who truly deserve it.

Easy on. It's not that abhorrent. The people missing out on sponsorship money for going climbing are hardly the wretched of the earth.

Which is not to say lying is fine, obviously.

Presumably these 474: http://escalade9.wifeo.com/par-nationalite.php

Or maybe a few less if you're willing to go through and filter out the 8c+/9a borderline cases. Or maybe a few more not on that list given that 9a is barely internationally newsworthy any more. Unless it's a major historic landmark like AD.

So we ultimately climb to be honest? And no other reason? I think if you remove honesty there’s still a whole lot left.

Yes okay honesty is important but does one professional lying about whether they climbed a route or two change your experience or mine? I don’t think so, if anything I think it changes theirs and will continue to have a knock on effect to them and only the very elite.

If every climber I’ve ever know had lied about what they’d climbed, it wouldn’t change anything about my relationship or experience with climbing. It’d make me question their motivation and incentives if anything. 

So on Christmas Day you go to crag x and spot a spectacular line that appears to be unclimbed. You climbed it and it’s the route of a life time. When you get home you trawl through the guidebooks and online sites and no one has claimed it.

So you write it up as a first ascent and are understandably chuffed about it. A week later someone else claims it saying that they did it on Christmas Eve. You find this unbelievable as there were dirty holds and there was moss on the route and there was no chalk on the holds.

You seek clarification from the other claimant and they are a bit vague, can’t remember who they did it with. Then on further questioning they say maybe it wasn’t Christmas Eve but a day or two earlier.

You have suspicions that they are lying but they insist on claiming the first ascent.

How do you think you might feel.

You might feel really chuffed that you had had a fantastic Christmas day and whatever anyone else claims that remains true and can't be taken away from you?

In the circumstances you are describing I would be miffed! Creating a new climb is one of the most fulfilling things you can do as a climber, so my emotion would probably be anger at first, even if it didn’t remove the joy of climbing the route it would taint the experience. However what you’re describing is moving away from what the situation is here.

This guy is not claiming new or cutting edge repeats. He’s not taking away anything from anyone, really. I dislike the moralising aspect of ‘there’s a limited pot - he’s taking from more deserving people’, as it seems disingenuous at best. The idea that there is some other ripper whose CV has been shined on because of Said seems ridiculous.

Just my tuppence worth: never met Said, follow his posts on Instagram occasionally as I like the photos and the travel aspect, as someone said above it’s the appeal of the itinerant wanderer/ lifestyle. It’s appealing in a vicarious way as it seems so free and pure, but I imagine there is also a fair share of insecurity and anxiety associated with such a lifestyle. One of the articles mentions Said’s worries about getting dropped by sponsors - if he has lied about ascents I feel sorry for him, actually, that he has felt compelled to fabricate out of fear of losing his income. There’s no evidence that can prove either way - I agree that his story seems odd and there are grounds for suspicion, but I also think that destroying someone for the sake of honesty is all a bit much. 

Not to justify lying - obviously it is a bad thing to do, but we all do it sometimes and I think it’s too easy to cast stones. I hope it all proves to be kosher and the guy is vindicated but even if not ultimately all he has done is lie to himself, which is a real tragedy given that he probably didn’t need to. 

I can see where you are coming from but your example is hardly comparable.

If you are prepared to ask so many questions you ultimately have to ask the question why someone theoretically stealing a first ascent would make you feel a certain way.

Because it might not get you the attention you feel you deserve or a name in a guidebook.

Having climbed a few first ascents, if someone turned around and said truthfully or not they climbed them before me, it’d change a few words of text and that’s about it. 

Has there ever been an example of a climber whose multiple impressive but poorly substantiated ascents have been widely questioned, who has later gone on to prove him/herself to such an extent that the earlier doubts have been allayed?

Johnny Woodward.

jcm

John Dunne? 
Franco Cookson?
Lights blue touch paper and retreats to a safe distance... 

Interesting, and potentially a very good example. I don't recall Johnny's ascents being doubted as such, although I concede that may be my weak memory. I recall controversy as to the style, since he and his brother weren't shy about their decision to headpoint routes, which at the time was taboo (albeit no doubt pretty widely practised.)

Mick Fowler. I recall the kerfuffle ove Linden.

The bit I really don;t get and that makes me most sceptical is that, if he did do it, you'd think he'd say 'Please give me your full name and contact details so that I can verify my ascent'.

I'm amazed by all the responses by people saying they don't care if he lied or not, none of our business.  I have no idea if he's done these routes or not, but as a person making a living from being a climber, and publishing your ascents to enhance your image, surely telling porkies is totally unacceptable, and he needs to be called out?  Or at least asked for evidence.  It seems like a lot of his hardest claimed ascents (i.e. the ones that make him stand out as a top level climber) are being called into question.  Cobra crack, 9a+ at Oliana, another one in France, and now AD.  Surely it should be acceptable to ask for some people to come forward and vouch for these? 

I think it is a very different case to the vast majority of us lot doing our hardest ascents, as we aren't publicizing them, having them reported on news websites, and ultimately fashioning an image fro ourselves that is worth money (albeit probably not very much).

If you believe he is indeed lying as some suggest to boost his profile - to boost his sponsorship earning potential then you have a choice

- If you care about it - then don't click-on / read / "like", "favourite" or follow anything to do with him - then sponsors will determine he no longer has sufficient followers / influence to be deemed worth giving money to. 

Saying you are outraged and then looking at his Instagram will only encourage further such behaviour.

Mystery solved.  He was belayed by Rich Simpson

Thanks. 

Well it appears his belayer Michael has turned up on 8a.nu to verify  his ascent, so it seems he is telling the truth, it's pretty scary how the social media lynch mob descends with only hearsay.

Burn him he's a witch!!

Interesting.  Out of curiousity I went to 8a.nu, where I'd anticipate anyone climbing 9a to have an account, and looked up the person ranked 100.  Their top grade is a sole ascent of an 8c+. The 89th-ranked person has three 8cs; the 80th has a single 9a.

Can't find that - could you link please?

Actually you’re right; I am confusing the story - didn’t they do various routes, then Martin Boysen said he’d done them first, then they said the routes had been uncleaned when they did them, and so on. So if anything it was the other way round - they were the accusers rather than the accused. I think Traveller in Time was named as a reference to one of these debates (did Boysen propose to call it Jumbo, maybe?).

jcm

He claimed Jumbo at Ramshaw. Martin Boysen didn’t believe JW had done as it required extensive cleaning before he MB could do it. There is reference in Peak Rock about the controversy not being satisfactory resolved.

It appears there are two people with same name claiming to be the belayer.

However Said says these people are not the belayer.

See Alan Little’s link - I think your assumption would be wrong. To be sure the fact Rich Simpson is still on the list might raise some questions about its curation, but I don’t suppose it’s way out.

jcm

I was the belayer ... and so was my wife!

I thought you were belaying when I did ad this morning?

https://livellozero.net/said-belhaj-and-action-directe-controversy-intervie...

As above, the belayer for AD is not credible. Belayer for TTT is supposedly confirmed, but may be Said’s girlfriend. No confirmation from named belayer for papichulo. Comms have gone silent from Said, so I suspect there will be no satisfactory closure on this one. 

I reckon these cases probably follow the golden rule of celebrity gossip:

 There is no smoke without fire

Weird!

Oh, was it that way round? And they named it in reference to MB’s belief they had backdated their ascent, maybe.

Wasn’t a great example on my part, anyway.

jcm

You definitely overestimate the popularity of 8a,nu, I can easily name plenty of 9a climbers who don't appear on the top 100 - from the UK alone, Mcclure, Malc Smith, Buster Martin and others.  

The list of 400 plus linked above looks pretty comprehensive, includes 8c+/9a , boulder link-ups and some doubtful ascents (Rich Simpson as mentioned) imagine genuine number of individuals ticking 9a routes would still be somewhere well in excess of 300.

I think you're getting very worked up about not much. Perhaps a bit jealous or a few chips on that shoulder.

You don't get sponsored because you have climbed 9a, even if there is belayer proof. You get sponsored because you look good in pics, have a large social media following etc ( from pics and vids, no one follows or sponsors someone because they have verifiably climbed 10a (if it existed) if they have no pics of them looking cool, doing stuff, etc.)

https://www.8a.nu/forum/news/belhaj-gives-details-and-has-belayers

Michael Fromm, ignore michael2. 

See the link I put in above. The account of this ‘Michael’ does not match Said’s account of what happened and Said has stated that the ‘Michael’ who came forward was not the belayer. 

Gosh what a story.  

One the one hand if he is telling the truth I'm gutted for him that his word is being doubted.

But man, the circumstances are mad...    Belayed by a guy he doesn't know the name of, or have any contact details for who deleted their instagram. No photos.  Video taken but by persons unknown.... 

Really can't make up my mind as to whether I doubt his word or not.  Which I guess means I do.  Or don't.

Tell you one thing though, this sound like total bollocks https://livellozero.net/said-belhaj-and-action-directe-controversy-intervie...  - which I suspect it is... Said says that's not the guy anyway!

I'm amazed you think lying about routes is not a big deal, for me yes, it is a massive deal!  I find it sad that this happens in a sport that I love.  Luckily it seems to occur very very rarely  

What nonsense, yes you have to look good but the bottom line is still "can you climb hard".  How many male sport climbers have decent sponsorship deals without sending 8c or above, very very few, you do have to climb hard and Said will well know this.

I was at a talk over thirty years ago, by a very well known figure in the climbing world, about various first ascents that may not have happened or were not as they were reported. There is nothing new about this latest debate, except that social media and sponsorship have got involved.

John

When compulsive lying meets climbing. Its a fascinating subject and there's been a few examples over the years. We've yet to hear from a mental health professional who can expand on the motives/psychology behind it. It's super interesting.

The same was all true of Rich Simpson (I met him and would say the same) but posterity seems to record that he was a fraud in much the same circumstances? 

A super strong climber but a recorded fraud. We hope that his past problems are behind him,poor Rich.

A sub 2:15 marathon behind him, or a 4-minute mile behind him, or a 15 bout undefeated boxing record behind him?

The bottom line of sponsorship is not climbing hard. The bottom line of sponsorship is selling products.

It is not a prize. It's a fiscal contract.

I know plenty of sponsored climbers who have never climbed anywhere near 8c.

Makes sense to expand the lies to 3 sports if the first was believing enough I suppose. I'm glad it stopped there and no other sports were involved (except speed climbing which would have deserved it)

Never heard of him before. But I do think it a bit sad that one of the most legendary climbs is actually a grotty bit of rock. I stood under it and thought "is that it?". Whereas standing under la rambla or Biographie is awe inspiring. Anybody from these shores done any of them?  

No idea who the guy is or what he has or hasn't climbed although it does sound pretty suss. 

I watched the epicTV video discussing whether a pro climber needs to record all his accents or should we just tale people at their word? 

I'd say that if you earn your money from climbing either hard or in someway marketable stuff which makes you interesting enough for brands to endorse you then you do need to make reasonable effort to have some evidence of routes you've done that are of note. (ie the reason you're sponsored) 

So no you don't need eyewitnesses and a full video of every warm-up route you climb or random weekend trip away you have. But I think as a "professional" climber when you're on the big stuff and stuff that is going to get media or brand attention then you should have some sort of proof because if brands are sponsoring them to do this sort of stuff, the slightest sniff of bullshit about their claims negatively affects the brands which are paying them. 

I can accept though that sometimes you go to just try stuff and occasionally you pull something out the bag and do the route almost as a fluke and you can't be expected to film every go when you're just starting to work something. But even then a belayer should be able to vouch for you, maybe more tricky with bouldering though. 

Thinking this through a bit more. He is supposed to be a Professional, well other Professionals such as Doctors, Nurses, Social Workers, Physios etc have to record there interventions.

So why shouldn’t a Professional Climber do same.

Really? People who are primarily known for rock climbing rather than alpinism? Care to name some? 

Well said. You wouldn’t expect Ondra to have video evidence of doing every 9a or 9a+ or even 9b which he manages to do. These are grades you’d expect him to get up. May be not even newsworthy! He might not even have the belayer’s name - could be a random person at the crag who asks to remain anonymous). It would be a bit odd but not exactly incredible.

A bit different for someone who’s never done 9a before though. Surely you’d want to evidence it? But then you pull it out of the bag unexpectedly, the camera is not running and you have a random belayer... Again, not impossible but the burden of proof ends up being higher because it sounds less plausible.

It’s a bit said that in today’s digital age sponsored climbers are expected to have proof. Though some of the comments above show that this is not entirely new. Nor is making things up... There was a famous case with Gogarth new routes back in the late 60s but there were probably earlier cases as well.

I’m inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt. After all, it’s not healthy to end up in a situation where no one is believed unless they have proof. What’s clear though is that anyone who is sponsored and makes what are (for them) big claims is doing themselves a big disservice by not having some kind of proof (at least a traceable belayer). 

Decent guy? Didn’t you clock him publicly outing Ben Heason as a liar? The irony dial hit 13 with hindsight

Sure he didn't bang out the solo?

No, probably not known primarily for rock climbing. Alpinists, all rounders, guides etc. But that's kind of the point - it's not purely about climbing hard, it's about doing interesting things and maintaining a profile.

I’m a bit suspicious about some of Geoffrey Winthrop Young’s stuff

A fascinating subject, yes indeed. It’s briefly discussed in The White Cliff under ‘Ballpoint Ascents’ in The Upper Tier chapter with my perspective from the psychiatrists chair. I’m following this latest drama with interest.

If you go to Andy Kirkpatrick's Facebook page you will see a few days back he brings up the Rich Simpson episode again with regard to this current one. I make some comments there about the history and psychology of lying in climbing - but I'm not a psychologist. I tagged Malcolm Bass, alpinist and psychologist, to comment and he did so in the thread below my comments.

I think you didn't read my post before replying, or your mistaken.  I said there are very very few male sport climbers with decent sponsorship that haven't climbed 8c, but apparently you know plenty of these that haven't climbed anywhere near 8c??? really, I doubt it!

Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't...there doesn't seem to be any conclusive evidence either way. Obviously, this is of interest to people but if one considers why exactly it is baffling.  It's not as if he's stealing the limelight from the us mere mortals of the climbing world, is it?  Sure, he might be cheating his sponsors, but there's worse examples of cheating in the world I am sure, from doping in sport to cheating outside of climbing.  Then there are the other people climbing 9a who might feel that there's a limited amount of sponsorship available, and if he takes some of it then it is less for the more "genuine" 9a climbers...maybe he's taking some of their livelihood away and getting a few free pairs of shoes he doesn't deserve, but it's hardly on the scale of Amazon tax avoidance etc.  So, with a bit of reflection and perspective, as climbing (especially outdoors) is quite an individual activity and not really too competitive compared with other sports, until one introduces the idea of sponsorship and media coverage/advertising, why do we care....it's a genuine question rather than saying that I don't personally care.

Be cool, climbercool, go easy on the question marks.

You're right, I did write that 8c bit without reading very closely, so I apologise. On that point I'm sure you're right.

My main point was that the way you  represent sponsorship in earlier posts, ('privilege doesn't get any bigger', something that strong young climbers 'deserve') seems pretty naive. In the case of sport climbers, climbing hard is indeed a requirement in the job description, but the bottom line is brand image and selling stuff.

One of the great things about climbing is that you can somehow convince people you have done stuff  that you haven't. And even get monies for it. Long may it continue. What other sports can you do this? 

Should have told everyone rich Simpson belayed him. Now that would have been funny. 

Generally, humans care about honesty and the truth, that's why it's 'a thing' when it is transgressed. Maybe it comes down to basic survival instinct - people looking to harm us or take from us lie to us in order to deceive us and take advantage?

Climbing is not life or death. If it was, then anything would be acceptable - lying, fudging, pulling on draws, ladders, helicopters. We do it because it matters *how* we do it, we impose rules and traditions and to transgress those is to disrespect our fellow climbers who bide by those rules. Our choices and actions express something about ourselves. Of course, there can be some rule breaking and a little disrespect for predecessors that goes along with that - bolting, hangdogging, inspection on rappel. But those things are ultimately deemed to have progressed the sport for many others, or the upper standards of performance, and not really hurt anyone. How does lying about what you've climbed progress the sport for others? It does not. It brings down something we all profess to value. It makes our choice, our lifestyle, our passion, a little grubbier and a little less something worth our effort and love.

How do anything is how we do everything. If someone lies about stuff like that, what else do they do?

My memory is rubbish too but I think I remember reading something about controversy arising due to JW being unable to repeat Piece of Mind (?) on a toprope.

Lying about climbing is the least of our worries. Seems to get you places these days. 

You are right about honesty being important. On a side note, your opening comments made me think of The Games Climbers Play. It can be life or death, and the more so it is, the fewer rules there are. Still, honesty and integrity are important even if you’ve been through a life or death situation. 

It's like running: you can do a really impressive time in training and tell all your friends but only times in an official race 'count'.   It should be the same in climbing - you shouldn't get the recognition of logging a 9a ascent on an 'official' list on a website unless you provide a video or a signed statement from the belayer.   If you are chasing status then it has become a competition and there needs to be rules.

FFS we do not need more rules - are you really proposing the IFOC starts regulating claims about real climbing as well as the IFSC for indoor comps? c;mon!

I for one have zero videos of me climbing anything and if I choose to tell folk they usually yawn and change the subject*.  This is essentially the opportunity here.

* I could probably produce witnesses but they'd mainly mention the sloppy footwork and gibbering that occurs when slightly above gear...

Although I think a <i>signed</i> statement is probably unnecessary, Tim in Edinburgh did say this should apply for routes of 9a and above and for those who are "chasing status". So unless you've dramatically upped your game since the most recent routes in your logbook, I think you're probably safe

Ok fair enough, I have a bad habit with question and exclamation marks.

Agreed. Some of his claimed sends seem highly dubious with a wooden leg.

Are you being serious? A bit excessive, don’t you think? For the most part, there will be videos, photos, witnesses at the crag or at least an identifiable belayer. Questionable ascents are a tiny proportion of all ascents. It’s just not a big enough issue to require a formal system. If it was a big issue, the sponsors might require it. Savvy media stars will have videos and photos anyway as that’s what sponsorship demands. 

“Signed statement from the belayer”.  Yes and if any are found to lie they stand to get expelled from the belayers union and the ombudsman (ofbelay) will investigate.  It’d be a serious breach of belaycratic oath.

video and signed statements and the like have never really been needed as anyone climbing 9A will have loads of high level climbing, and people who have seen them, coached them, hung out with them will have seen their progression through the grades.  Basically, they’re good climbers, they get it. They realise that lying is pointless...

Obviously if some 6b punter like me were to crop up and claim to have sent Hubble or something, out of the blue, with nowt approaching that grade and no high level history people would want some proof!

That said, as it is all really built on trust, it’s not a surprise that occasionally, once in a while, a high level climber might just fall foul of temptation and make up a little fib here and there (I mean if you’ve climbed 8c+ what’s the difference right, right?!?!).

No idea if that’s happened with this guy or not. But I reckon there’s probably the odd little porky that’s gone by unnoticed over the years. 

Not sure where I’m going with this. I guess I’m saying it’s no biggie either way. If lies happen they’re an exception rather than the norm, and anyone who does it will have themselves to live with.  So let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water and introduce rules and regulations.  But by all means, if people have reasonable doubt they should feel at Liberty to voice them.

I don’t know if he climbed AD or not, maybe we will find out, maybe not. Either way, Said certainly could have handled the aftermath better.

I think the more interesting question here is around what obligations we have as climbers, sponsored or not, to prove ascents. You seem to suggest that if you are a sponsored sport climber, you are required to document every climb that is of any significance. I find that sort of sad in that it reduces climbing to purely a sport of performance and promotion.

Said is the sort of climber who breaks that model. He has climbed hard for over 25 years and done little in the way of self-promotion. He is exactly the type of person who could climb AD and not feel the need to film it. His sponsors support him because of who he is and how he lives and not just his 8a.nu stats.

No.  I'm saying that if you are going to run a website where people log impressive climbs and you have rankings and such like and somebody says they've climbed a 9a then they should need either a video or someone to corroborate it before you put it on your database.   Just a basic quality criterion on the database.

If you don't give a toss about getting on the list then you don't have to do anything.   If you want the status/recognition then you need to provide evidence.   

It's a better approach than letting anybody log any claim they like and then have personal arguments about whether they were lying or not.

Which ascents? Just asking, not challenging you. Thank you

How hard has Sierra Blair Coyle climbed?

jcm

I was only referring to what he was like when I met him,  not on the internet (I can't remember if I really followed the Heason stuff much. I've never met Ben and had no connection to the events. ) 

When I met Simpson in Siurana I thought he was a nice bloke. He even gave us a load of free food when he left, which as poor students without transport we really appreciated. And he was obviously incredibly strong. 

The point I was making in this thread was that being either likable or obviously strong doesn't mean you don't need proof.  And it's far easier to film something now than it was in 2006.

A seem to recall low 8. So not really all that hard.

V10, I think I remember reading. 

I think her marketability (and hence sponsorship) was based more on "look Barbie doll does climbing" than the actual grades she was achieving 😁

Although she does appear to be a pretty good boulderer, just not quite "A" team.

I think it's fair to say she's an isolated case. And although I used to think the same as you about her, I think she is a reasonably accomplished comp climber these days. Although your point stands, she is mainly sponsored because of her looks it would seem. The Anna kornikova of climbing? She did an interview with the training beta podcast. It changed my view of her. 

I think to suggest that said belhaj is sponsored because he's good on the drums and can spin a good yarn is a bit naive though. It's part of the package yes, but the package includes hard climbing.

Ondra doesn't have to provide video evidence for every 9b he's done, because hes got form. If you've only done 5 9a, and none of them have been witnessed or filmed, then that's quite a different case. 

I found SBC's interview on training beta good too. You don't get to be world ranked in the 20s and make multiple world cup semifinals without actually being able to climb.

(Nor is she anywhere near the hottest woman on the world cup circuit, not that I'm going to publicly reveal my embarrassing Lucka Rakovec crush or anything. Oops.)

To summarise this thread and it’s equivalent on ukb:

Said Belhaj has fewer hard ascents independently verified than Richard Simpson. John Gaskins is somewhere between the two. 

I hadn't realised there was serious doubt about Gaskins' record, or am I reading more into your post than I should?

Flaneur is stirring, yes some of Gaskins ascents were questioned but not with consequencies really to the same extent of those of Rich (both of whom were very very strong, unlike the outright fraudsters like Si). Yossarian did a great spoof movie review on the shenanigans on the 'anyone seen any good films lately' thread over there.

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,6004.3650.html

Actually... reading Dan's comments on the start of UKB thread chasing spectres thread.. maybe flaneur was right. My apologies to him. The film spoof is still funny.

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30355.0.html

I wonder if there is a different way of getting to the bottom of the AD question in this case. What about physical evidence, such as the phone locations of Said and Michael at the time in question and DNA left in the  killer mono on the jump at the start. It's high time this became a criminal matter, we wouldn't stand for this level of ambiguity in Tunbridge Wells I can tell you..

After reading Dan Varian's recent comments on Shadowplay, it would require some serious faith to allow any chance that Gaskins climbed it.

What that means for some of his other ascents, who knows? There is hard evidence of him bouldering at least 8B, so it's not like he was a pure fantasist. I'd love to understand the psychology, super interesting.

Meh. I'm not saying I'm a huge fan (pretty much don't care either way!) but I've always thought it was a bit lame when people ripped the piss out of her. Yes, she is probably much more marketable (and therefore sponsored) for her looks, but she also climbs harder than most the people making fun of her... And as mentioned her comp career is pretty accomplished in the grand scheme.

As Andy Moles has said, it’s not just how hard you climb, it’s about building your personal brand. Instagram followers and so on. She is good at that, so good on her for getting sponsored! A lot of the naysaying is just envy... This has very little to do with the OP of course but it’s an interesting tangent. 

That is True. Sierra and her parents have produced a good ’product’. And to be honest, while her outdoor climbing list isn’t that extensive, her comp resume is pretty solid (not the best, but consistant results). But as stated her PR presence is massive. 
 

And that is What generally brands want, media presence. Sure Most will also sponsor those that climb really hard, but rarely have a media presence at all. They do this for the good of their heart and perhaps product Feedback. But more often they are After media value, so they are even more known and thus sell more. 

Sure, there’s a place for underwear models on the climbing scene as on many others.

jcm

I suspect that might be more than a little insukting/condescending to someone who is amongst the top 30 or so in the world. 

In contrast I can assure you that in athletics there have been plenty of A team players who got horrible deals as they were awful to sponsor,  and a waste of money for it

It's interesting to see how this thread has evolved from ethics to sponsorship to an attack on SBC. AFAIK she's a positive role model who has helped encourage female participation but we don't usually get to see the resentment this attracts.

Happy holidays everyone!

https://twitter.com/sierrablaircoyl/status/1209104648855945216?s=20

DFBWGC redux

Top 30 in what world list?

https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/world-competition/ranking

I don't know. Top 30 is probably way off the mark. But has fairly consistently made top 20 in world Cup events I believe. I'm coming across as the world's bigger SBC fan here aren't I. I'm not. I just think it's pretty shit that she gets fobbed off as being a fraud because she also does modelling. Chicken and egg scenario, maybe she can train hard and do well because she's made money from modelling first. I don't know. 

She was top 30 in 2018 but only did 2 events in 2019, probably because USA Climbing generally sent a 'proper' team in 2019 to most events (ie top 5 from the US Champs) whereas previously the US rarely filled their quota so they allowed independants to compete and one of the things that Sierra has is access to funds.

Her best result was 10th in Hachioji 2018, which was a very strong field. She beat various women who have qualified for Tokyo and was only one place behind Shauna. A very strong performance.

She has been to 17 Boulder World Cup semi finals. She is not sh*t

That’s alright then 

I suspect that most people are not grumbling about her personally. I think it's more that she's another example (but nowhere near the worst) of our society rewarding appearance more than substance. And a lot of people aren't happy with that.

She's obviously got some substance because she can climb hard, but she's not got as much as many others.

I don't like the appearance over substance zeitgeist but she's making good use of her talents in that environment, I've not got a problem with her doing that.

The more serious issue is that youngsters may end up thinking that you have to look like a model to be able to climb well.

Has Said climbed Action Directe? Who cares, there's a woman daring to climb just around the corner. The outrage!

He must be well relieved that the heat is off.

Unless SBC stands for "Said Belhaj - Cheat?" I believe we must take it that the first person to have mentioned SBC was a mate of Said's who is also well versed in political communication, perhaps a Tory party employee, having a go at dropping the proverbial dead cat onto this particular table. Seems to have worked!

The kids I see at climbing competitions aren't SBC fans.   They're Shauna Coxsey and Janja fans, you just need to look at the autographs on their chalkbags.  The climbing kids follow athletes who win comps, not people who get into semi finals.    I think SBC's financial success is that her audience is mainstream fashion/lifestyle rather than climbing.

Sbc is a very good sponsor worthy climber. She has huge marketing value. 

As for a.d it all sounds fishy looking at the evidence.  I'd say he didn't do it. 

Mainstream fashion is where the money is. Same with big consumer brands (Coke, car companies, etc) getting involved with climbing because it’s part of what makes them look cool. Clearly the big brands will go for those who are photogenic and have a solid social media presence. If you get onboard with one of the big brands, good for you! Does the general climbing population care? Probably not, though some people get all worked up about it. I’d say live and let live.

I suspect it’s the same with things like snowboarding, skateboarding, surfing, windsurfing. May be the big brands will get onto cave diving one day...

Tesla?

Regarding SBC, I think this is another case of climbers overstating their importance in the general world. Just like when I get annoyed that my local wall is turning into a crèche and I have to remind myself that they (or their parents at least) are paying the bills and keeping the wall open when I disappear outside for 6 months of the year and they pay for lessons etc.

SBC's sponsors are happy enough if some tubby dad sees her climbing in a bikini, feels a bit hot under the collar and then buys a £300 coat for his walk to the corner shop. All the while keeping the factories turning out tidy gear for more serious climbers to use. Although we're probably only going to buy one every 10 years and that's if there's a sale on.

Saying this, why can't climbers be fashion victims and models be climbers? She certainly looks a lot healthier than most fashion models. And if she's modeling swimwear, is this a bad role model for the kids (as one Twitter used was suggesting? Do these people not go swimming or to the beach? Would you call Rebecca Adlington a bad role model?

Exactly , she is without question very good looking as are most models and it also happens she climbs well. 

I know if my daughter said she wanted to do what she does I'd be happy . Modelling isn't a bad job to get into and she gets to travel with it and her climbing . 

I saw the comment on Twitter. To say she is a bad role model is wrong. The fear of skin in social media is pathetic.

Just noticed that SBC's twitter pic on this thread currently has more clicks than any of the links about Said Belhaj  in the OP.

SBC's sponsors have no interest in tubby dads.  They want her to sell women's clothing to women.

So mammut only sell women's clothing?

Opps most of them clicks were me 😁

If you see SBC in a pair of Mammut Aelectra tights and decide that's a look you can pull off, more power to you. 

That is pretty underground...