UKH

I found the boss's climbing gear in the warehouse today and it included a very shiny no6 cam and it got me thinking about routes that need such a cam or that you could even place one on. 

I've never needed one and can only think of Central Buttress Scafell and Eagle Front where a hugh cam will be useful.

What other routes could you use them on? 

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Desperation crack and Giggling crack at Brimham

Both 'fun' routes....

In reply to Baron Weasel:

works on Roof Route (VS 4c)

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Don't know about required, but climbing with a no 6 cam is a fun game. It is surprising how often you can place it given enough determination. Occasionally you save it to when it possibly can be vaguely useful if you can see a nice wide placement coming up, but mainly it's a game of how soon you can get it placed so that it is your second rather than you who has to climb the rest of the pitch carrying the extra weight and bulk.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

I did Silver Crack (HS 4c) at Froggatt yesterday, I have a big cam - an old cheapy Rock Empire one - it's a bit bigger than my biggest camalot, a no.4 - so maybe Camalot 5 size? It rather unconvincingly could sit at the slight dogleg in crack and gave me some confidence to move up to the higher chockstone, but it would have been less nervy with a bigger cam.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Bulgy (Winter) (VII 7) ?

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Pretty sure Ray's roof takes a no#6 (or several)

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Handy on Elder Crack. 

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Not T Rex at Gogarth anymore.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Lots in the Peak, some of the best crags to go to where there are a few no.6 size routes:

Curbar:

Elder Crack (E2 5b)

Right Eliminate (E3 5c)

Left Eliminate (E1 5c) (can do it without size 6 but helps)

it's the only gear that goes in this:

Hercules (E1 5a)

Burbage South:

Goliath (E4 6a)

David (HVS 4c) (just at top, don't really need it)

Roof Route (VS 4c)

Ramshaw:

Ramshaw Crack (E4 6a)

Imposition (E2 5b)

The Great Zawn (HVS 5a)

Hen Cloud:

The Long and Short (E1 5b) (top pitch)

Main Crack (VS 4c)

Central Climb (VS 4c) (middle pitch)

In reply to Baron Weasel:

There's loads of routes in the UK where you can place a number 6 cam, but there's none that require one.

You mentioned routes that were climbed a century ago....

In reply to JIMBO:

Brrrr. Still shudder at the memory. My mate and I took a good hour to dog our way into the hellish upper reaches on a damp December day. Perhaps not the best conditions for an attempt.

In reply to dan gibson:

But a number of them were climbed with pre-existing or placed chockstones and slings

In reply to mikekeswick:

Winking crack

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Possibly

Scrattling Crack (VD)#photos

In reply to Baron Weasel:

My friend found a route at Froggat, I don't recall the name of it though. He took no fewer than three no.6 Dragons, borrowing from the rest of us. I remember he placed all three of the 6s and nothing else.

I think that might be the only time my no.6 has been placed. I gave up carrying it soon after I bought it, but it does come to every crag in the bottom of the bag, just in case.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Place it between the lakes and the penines to protect the m6 on your journey up north? 

No need to thank me. 

In reply to GerM:

I've played that game with a no11 hex for years!

I'll quiz the boss about why he has it when I get the right chance. I suspect it's never been placed, it didn't look used at all. My suspicion is that it's a case of all the gear and no idea. 

In reply to TobyA:

I have memories that grow fonder with the passage of time of silver crack. I remember looking at the slab as a possible escape route. 

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Sabre Cut (VS 4c) was a lot less scary with a number 6 dragon. But that's the same size as a bd number 5, right?

In reply to Baron Weasel:

All the Shakespearoes (E3 5c)

probably knocks a graded or two of the route .... though it is still loose as fcuk!

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Aladdinsane at Trowbarrow. Very physical E1. Best with a No5 and a No6. 

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Scarecrow Crack (E1 5b) is only protectable with big cams. Back in the 80s when I couldn’t afford cams, I bought the biggest hex available just to protect this route. 

In reply to stratandrew:

Yes! I think I walked mine pretty much all the way up the route. 

In reply to pancakeandchips:

DMM 6 is a BD 4.

I've just taken receipt of a DMM 7 (equivalent of a BD 5) before the grit season starts........

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Having climbed very little since last summer (rock climbing anyway) I was sort of worried about this but actually its not really very hard, just a bit scary going between the two chockstones! It didn't really require much "normal" climbing strength so just the type of route for someone who despite all good intentions never made it to the climbing or bouldering wall all winter! I did Bollard Crack (VS 4c) to its right a year or two ago and that was much more of a fight at the top.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Long Layback Crack VS at Simonside North Face .

The afore mentioned Brimham desperates .

And Post-mortem at Eagle Crag ...

In reply to Baron Weasel:

The stovelegs.  I only had tipped-out #4s; terrifying

In reply to Baron Weasel:

are you talking about Wild Country no6 as that is equivalent to the no 8 DMM dragon!!  if your talking about No 6 dragon then i've placed mine loads of times on grit. i've a no 5 WC Tech Friend which is bigger and have also placed that many times and can think of a few routes that a no6 WC could be placed.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

I'm sorry, no very old-fashioned classic rock climb "requires" a modern cam. It makes me quite sad to hear people saying this of classic old climbs like Silver Crack at Froggatt and Central Climb at Hen Cloud. That was part of the nature of those climbs. No one was asking you to do them if you had neither the ability nor the guts. And just remember when Central Climb was first done (I'm in bed now, so can't be bothered to go and look it up, but I think c.1912 by Laycock ??) Are we really saying that most of us can't climb as well now as those Edwardian pioneers?

And Sabre Cut on the Cromlech, fgs!! A wonderful old climb, part of the essence of it being the poor protection. But just superb, and well-enough protected as far as I can remember the first time I did it in my first summer of rock climbing in 1968. I fear some 2020 climbers may be putting so many of these huge modern cams in it that they can't help using them as footholds.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

I can’t remember if i used a 5 or a 6 on Crewcut at millstone but it’s pretty wide.

Crewcut (VS 4c)

In reply to Baron Weasel:

I first stuck mine in Kremlin Crack at Rivelin, I take it to all the crack venues, but only take it up a route if I can see a placement. Centuary Crack swallows quite a few, so that counts me out I reckon.

😀

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Don't be sorry, be afraid - fear is your friend if you choose not to use modern protection on previously bold climbs  

In reply to Baron Weasel:

I'll have it if he doesn't want it...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The routes certainly don't require enormous cams, people could solo them after all...

That doesn't mean that they don't make certain routes safer and more enjoyable.

Sabre cut's got pretty good wires in the subsidiary crack but would certainly be a different experience pushing a huge cam up the crack!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'm sure that there are climbs that used to be solos that are now very safe. The modern grade will reflect that.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

You're not only talking nonsense Gordon, you're contradicting yourself.

The 'essence' of Sabre Cut is not poor protection, in 'essence' it is nothing more than a vertical fracture in a rock face. The 'essence' you're talking about is a reflection of experience or imagination, a notion of what the route means rather than what it is.

It's also bizarre to single it out, when the vast majority of rock climbs have become better protected with modern equipment than when they were first climbed.

And finally, 'modern' cams have been around for over 40 years, longer than the time between Joe Brown's first climb and their appearance. The really large ones, as this thread shows, make a difference on only a tiny number of routes in the UK. As things go to get annoyed about, I'd put it pretty low on the agenda.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

I'm not sure what a number 6 is on the BD scale, but I remember wishing I had something larger than a 4 Camalot on the lower pitch of Mercury.

In reply to Andy Moles:

I didn't single it out. Someone else mentioned it. The essence of it is a wide crack, yes, which is therefore  - by nature - awkward to protect.  I used Friends for years, and as far as I can remember they went up to size 4, and those were quite big.

Actually, as the UKC description to Sabre Cut says, you can find protection inside the crack. I remember that as a remarkable feature about it: you thought you were in for some very hard fist-jamming or laybacking and you put your hand in the crack and discovered this hidden crack in its inside left wall, which made it a relative doddle to climb.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

...

I mean, you kind of did, with two exclamation marks.

Sounds like your objection is to the size of the cam, which seems more than a little arbitrary. I daresay you won't have been impressed with the style of ascent of Century Crack.

In reply to Andy Moles:

I would never have mentioned it, or thought of it, if someone else further up the thread hadn't mentioned it. I was expressing surprise at their choosing it as an example.

In reply to Andy Moles:

It's a very complicated subject indeed. All that really matters at the end of the day is the satisfaction each climber gets out of a climb - which has a lot to do with the style in which they do it. There's not much more to say about it really.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I think you're missing my point a wee bit, but never mind.

If it makes you feel any better, I don't think the vast majority of people who have climbed Sabre Cut in the last decade even own a No. 6 cam.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Sure, I'd never heard of them. I'm having a bit of a laugh now because I see that you can get a No.6 Camalot as a 'special offer' (10% off) for £99. No, I'm not making it up.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

You should look up Big Bros...

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Internationale (E2 5c)

I remember wishing I had more large cams on this. I dare say that a #6 might work. 

*spelling edit.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I hate the boring old story line that everything was better in the good old days with respect to most things, but I really HATE it when talking about rock pro. After all, technical improvements are fully accepted WRT all other aspects of our gear, shoes, ropes, waterproofs, GPS, ice screws, ...

I guess climbing for a few years in Saxony, where the Shit Pro Taliban wield considerable power, and where history always beats safety when discussing  bolt placements, made me a bit more prickly when someone is talking about poor protection being the essence of a route.

CB

In reply to dan gibson:

Wolfman Jack (E3 5c) on Lundy; P1 a lot better with 1, preferably 2, unless you trust a fully tipped out Blue Camalot.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Hopefully not on any older routes which were awkward to protect without them otherwise this would all seem a bit hypocritical?

In reply to Lemony:

I don't think I did, actually. I always preferred using hexentrics to Friends anyway. Much lighter to carry. But that was quite near the end of my climbing. (Sorry, Rockcentrics, I think. Even forgetting the name of them.)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

But not on any route climbed before 1973 presumably?

What a frightful yawn this thread has become.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Back on topic, I'll nominate Regular North Face Route ("The Rostrum") (5.11c).

Plenty of others in the Valley of course.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Why is that funny and why do you think anyone might think you are making it up?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

What an extraordinarily dim question (or statement, really, as it is clearly meant to be rhetorical). 

Yes, that is exactly what we are saying, because we are not pioneers. 

Routes currently graded E1 were climbed in the Edwardian era. The average onsight lead climbing grade in the UK is said to VS. 

And so what?

 

In reply to Baron Weasel:

On my first visit to the Anti-Atlas, my biggest cam was a WC4.

Oh deary me.... Big mistake! 

On the subsequent visit I was far better prepared, (and a lot poorer), having purchased a set of Camalots 4-6. 

Incidentally, there are a number of wide, semi body absorbing clefts in the Rhinogydd which will happily gobble up a Camalot 6.

<shudder>

In reply to Baron Weasel:

If you like Esoterica, then Senapod Corner at Ratcheugh goes well with a huge cam.

DaveSenapod Corner (S 4b)

In reply to Baron Weasel:

I read "no6 cam" in the thread title as "nob cam", which seemed a strange choice of equipment.

In reply to Ridge:

I certainly felt like a nob when I did Senapod Corner.

Dave

In reply to Lemony:

The first nuts I had in 1967 were straight-sided hexagonals, plus an original Moac. I don't think I had Friends until the late 70s (will have to look in logbook to see if mentioned). And Rockcentrics were way after that, weren't they? (probably mid 80s??)

In reply to Max factor:

Blue camalot is #3

We're talking about #6, a huge size difference.

Handy on Elder Crack. 

In reply to GrahamD:

I lent a big cam to Neil Foster for this purpose in the summer. Think he was pleased to have it. 

In reply to Baron Weasel:

dangerous crocodile snogging

when I did it I think it was a 5 but with a 6 foot sling, a size 6 would be a lot further out of the ledge

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Monorail (HVS 4c)

This route fits the bill, as a no. 6 will protect the middle section of the crack taking it from HVS to VS.

Have just taken delivery of discounted old style big green Camelot in hope that I will have a go at my ticklist,

10 Tor’s, 10 km, 10 Thrutches Tour

Quite a few of the ten that I have done would definitely benefit from it and some I haven’t also look suitably gaping and wide. 

Chris

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Forked Lightning crack? Or is it a 5?

In reply to dan gibson:

Are we? I assumed the OP was referring to a #6 Dragon (the silver one), which is one size bigger than a #3 camalot.

A # 6 Camelot is another proposition altogether!

In reply to Max factor:

There's an absolute ton of routes you can get a 4 Camelot in; many will take one as standard on mountain routes. You wouldn't be doing that with a 6.

In reply to Max factor:

It's a 6 camelot! It's HUGH!! 

In reply to dan gibson:

A blue Dragon is size 5, I was presuming he was talking about a Dragon 6.

As has been noted above, Dragon 6 is fairly reasonable to carry on a mountain rack, Camalot 6 is pretty unreasonable to carry on any rack unless you know it is required!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Do you eat meat raw after hunting it down and forage for your own vegetables while wearing rabbit skin undies and living in a cave?

Things move in. 1968 was a long time ago, let go of the past.

In reply to DaveHK:

I would not say required. Stacked hexes have been used. I had neither and thought the moves there were alright. [Its not much harder than Deep Throat in good conditions!]

Andy

In reply to Baron Weasel:

What are your other cams called?  ; )

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Winking Crack (E3 5c) maybe? (not sure if a 5 will do)

In reply to Max factor:

Hahaha, I missed the typo when I wrote it. What I meant was it's massif! 

In reply to Kid Spatula:

I think I might start another thread about this, because you've just so misunderstood me. I'm not trying to glamorise the past at all, because so much about climbing techniques and equipment then was such (relative) crap. But it might surprise you when I tell you - as someone who has always been quite scared by badly protected routes – that most of those mega-classics up to HVS that my brother and I did in 1968 really weren't much worse protected than now. It was less reliable, sure, in that nuts came out/ fell out much more easily and slings came off spikes, but it really wasn't hugely more dangerous on most routes. You got good runners on most of them where it most mattered. Out of the 70-odd routes that we did that month in 1968 in Ogwen and Llanberis (the weather was perfect) only about 3 or 4 at most were scary because of bad protection. What WAS real crap in those days was the clothing! And also the belaying, before belay plates were invented, was very dangerous indeed. I still rate belay plates as the single greatest advance in climbing safety in our whole sport. You'll never get me to glamorise belaying with gardening gloves!

In reply to Kid Spatula:

Another thing I'm very surprised hasn't been mentioned (maybe it has, I've been working hard today so have only now just skimmed through the thread): the big problem with big cams in off-width cracks is they get in the way of the climbing. You have this lovely protection, but you're then presented with this huge problem of having to literally 'climb round' the bloody things to avoid cheating, and end up with your feet on them. In classic too-wide-to-jam cracks you're using knees and heels, hands and elbows, and you've suddenly got this problem of: how do you get round this wondrous cam you've just placed. I can remember that experience on at least one route, possibly two, where I tried so hard not to cheat, and then felt my foot coming to rest and weighting the cam. End result: climb completely wrecked: not a genuine ascent.

In reply to Max factor:

Biggy Tembo and Biggy Smalls are my DB6 and DB5 respectively.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Good grief, man.

Was it some other Gordon Stainforth who posted
" I fear some 2020 climbers may be putting so many of these huge modern cams in it that they can't help using them as footholds." ?

In reply to Baron Weasel:

I've resisted posting in this topic because it's such a snore. Who cares?

Yet so dismayed am I at Gordon's dinosauric attitude, that the thread has worn me down and now I can't resist contributing.

I did Desperation Crack (HVS 5b at Brimham) over the weekend and took my friend's No5 and No6 camalot up. Very glad that I did. Without it you're looking at a short, but very arduous few metres of sustained high-in-the-tech-grade 5b chicken-winging/arm-barring at the top without any protection that would stop you clattering an uncomfortable distance. By no means a deckout, but you could certainly clatter quite awkwardly. That should be E1 in my book, but the big cams makes it HVS. It's not even the sort of thing that you get yourself wedged in and, even if upwards movement is hard work you're not likely to fall out. It's flared and if your arms give up then you'll be spat out straight away.

The cams are placed so deep in the orifice that there's no chance of them being used for aid. Can't really see why Gordon is moaning beyond the obvious that he's an old ex-climber, and old ex-climbers have of late delighted in doing their best to spoil climbing for everyone else who's still doing it. 

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Was happy I had one on Hollyash Crack (VS 4b)

In reply to Baron Weasel:

There are loads of routes on Hoy where you could use one.

In reply to PaulJepson:

You can protect the wide bit with small gear

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I'm repeating the very same point. That's the intrinsic problem with big cams in a wide crack, they can be very/quite difficult to climb round, without that happening. 

I'll repeat what I also said above somewhere. It doesn't matter a damn how people climb a route, it's up to them. At the end of the day it's all about the satisfaction and enjoyment one gets out of a route. On the few occasions - I promise it really is a few - when I've cheated by pulling on a nut, for example, I've felt a bit of a failure and got no satisfaction out of it. For example, on Bachelor's Left-Hand, I had trouble at the crux and pulled on a runner. When I got to the top I felt I hadn't really done the route, because I'd managed to screw up the best and hardest move/s on the climb.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

So on which routes have you trodden on cam and used it as a sneaky foothold then Gordon? Did you still claim the onsight?

In reply to henwardian:

That doesn't surprise me, we had a no5 when we did the old man last year, although the leader overcammed it and there was some delay retrieving it (it was borrowed!) 

In reply to TobyA:

It happened to me on the first pitch of Chequer's Crack. Either that or some fierce crack at Burbage, I can't remember. Of course I didn't 'claim the onsight' ... I would always mention something unsatisfactory about the way I'd climbed a route in my private logbook (actually four volumes!). But it's a private thing, nothing to do with public proclamations.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Routes requiring a no6 cam

from a distance this reads as "Routes requiring a nob cam"

Sorry I don't know any.

TWS

In reply to Baron Weasel:

I think a cam of such size could make routes harder. placements for a 6 would take up a leg lock or jam or more for the skinny ones and easily stop upward movement.  Ramshaw crack, the upper section you get very involved and a cam could easily hinder.

In reply to mark s:

This is one of the reasons why climbing overhanging or roof offwidth cracks feet first is often easier.

CB

In reply to TobyA:

On the question of standing on obstructive cams, I have always admired the fierce ethical stance of one partner.

’If it’s in the way then it’s not aid, is it?’

jcm

In reply to Chive Talkin\':

A nob cam - this one might?

Winkle Picker (HVS 5a)

In reply to Baron Weasel:

I've done a few of the routes mentioned without a large cam, basically because I have never owned one and/or done pre-cams.

However I was glad my mate was carrying one that I could borrow on Neomis  (Severe) at Jackson Tor. Would I have done it without, probably, but then it would have lived up to its name.

John

In reply to Baron Weasel:

In my day cams only went up to size 3. I did however borrow a bigun for Cosy Corner at Ingleby Incline (not sure if it was a No 6). As the crack concerned is parallel then the unscrupulous can move the cam up it as they climb.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

I've got two,

BD5 and BD6, and though I can't remember any routes I've used them on, they've often been a great relief, when deployed.

In reply to mikekeswick:

Roadside crack also. In fact it's the only piece of gear on it. Also Bog Crack. And I think there's a route or two at shepherds it turns out to be handy on.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

As someone else has pointed out, gear is there to be used to avoid dying. People who want to make statements about trad can always go and solo the route they think should be done  in a style from 50 years ago. I watched Joe Brown doing some routes at Froggatt,using cams. Always thought Joe was a canny guy. If he'd had cams in the 50's he would have used them.Climbing is not about comparison between different people and different eras, at least not to the point of unpleasantness.

   I used a 5 cam on a Curbar hard severe,which I have also soloed. I'm getting on a bit now. My partner took the piss about the 5 cam,then proceeded to puff and pant up the route on second.