Route names on rock, scout scar

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 loundsy 15 May 2023

Scout scar route names.

Two routes at scout scar now have their names written on the rock in red marker at the bottom. 

Meet the wife

Telegraph road

Any takers? I’ll remove them next time I’m there but can this not become a precedent please.

Thanks, Tim.

Photos on Instagram under #ukclimbing

13
 Al Doig 15 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Unbelievable. 
Thanks for offering to clean off. 

10
 John Kettle 16 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Hi Tim,

The grades 6's on the left end of this buttress are also named in red marker. I've scrubbed off one so far, two to go.

6
 Al Doig 16 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

A general observation. Why are people disliking the post? Vandalism is fine! 

6
 Ciro 16 May 2023
In reply to Al Doig:

Fat thumbs or hoping to get a rise from someone like you?

11
OP loundsy 16 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

Really. So we should have route names on the rock in the uk then at all sport venues. Accidental dislikes? Doubtful. 

13
 Ciro 16 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

> Really. So we should have route names on the rock in the uk then at all sport venues. Accidental dislikes? Doubtful. 

Eh?

People accidentally click buttons while scrolling on phones all the time.

Just ignore the odd one or two.

They only provide meaningful information when there's a large number of interactions with the button logged.

16
 John Kettle 19 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Hi Tim I met the name-writer at the crag today, it's Nick Wharton, an active local climber and FRCC member.

He told me he wants to set a precedent and thinks all uk sport routes should have their name written in permanent marker on the rock. He's re-written the ones I told him I recently removed.

I had a good chat with him about it but he's absolutely not interested in seeking the opinion or endorsement of the wider community, he thinks it's fine to act on his belief.

He has plans to continue this at Chapel Head Scar once it opens. 

Post edited at 18:44
 Lankyman 19 May 2023
In reply to John Kettle:

What an odd and unfortunate attitude. Did he say why on earth he thinks his actions are required? I have the guide to hand (co-authored and signed by the man himself) and the photo diagrams seem a paragon of clarity. Has there been an outbreak of navigational inadequacy on South Lakes limestone?

6
 Dave Garnett 19 May 2023
In reply to John Kettle:

I suppose it depends a bit on the standard of his calligraphy.  I remember the names of the routes at Buoux used to be in a rather attractive loopy cursive.

A bit of me can’t help wondering why it’s ok to drill the bolts but apparently beyond the pale to put a little discreet labelling.

18
 deacondeacon 19 May 2023
In reply to Dave Garnett:

The bolts are a necessity with sport climbing, whereas names written on the rock do nothing a decent guidebook cant do (and yes, I appreciate that technically routes can often be climbed without the bolts there).

5
 Andy Hardy 19 May 2023
In reply to John Kettle:

Surely a small traffolyte label under the first bolt is what we should be aiming for? Much neater and more durable 🙄

E2A could also have a QR code to the relevant UKC logbook page...

Post edited at 20:33
6
In reply to Lankyman:

> What an odd and unfortunate attitude. Did he say why on earth he thinks his actions are required?

It's called the Kalymnos effect 

3
 Rob Exile Ward 19 May 2023
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

I live near Scout Scar and Kalymnos it's not!

 Rob Parsons 19 May 2023
In reply to deacondeacon:

> The bolts are a necessity with sport climbing, whereas names written on the rock do nothing a decent guidebook cant do (and yes, I appreciate that technically routes can often be climbed without the bolts there).

Maybe he doesn't like guidebooks. (Or the idea is that you can just turn at the crag and climb without needing to reference a guidebook, just like at an indoor climbing wall.)

Post edited at 22:03
7
 simondgee 20 May 2023
In reply to Dave Garnett:

We do live be double standards but I think its is ourselves who get more hung up about bolts than the general public...they are pretty innoucous in the grand schem of things
However, writing names on the crag is grafitti to anyone who doesnt know the conetxt or does know the context but doesnt appreciate it ...what does it say about our attitude to the outdoors to the non climbing outdoor folk not indeed what right do we then have to bitch about somebody tagging The calf and calf in spary paint.  
Ya think Nick would mind if we marked up some of his routes in the central lakes? Whats the difference between writing names at the bottom of a line of bolts and drawing a line up a trad route ?

3
 Rob Parsons 20 May 2023
In reply to simondgee:

> ... Whats the difference between writing names at the bottom of a line of bolts and drawing a line up a trad route

There's obviously large difference: in principle, a 'trad' (so-called) route leaves no trace at all; but a line of bolts is, of itself, a very obvious trace.

Post edited at 22:32
11
 ebdon 20 May 2023
In reply to Rob Parsons:

In practical terms though, no one but climbers ever really see bolts, there pretty inoculous, and well above eye level. Unlike marker ben scrawled on the base of a cliff.

6
 Rob Parsons 20 May 2023
In reply to ebdon:

> In practical terms though, no one but climbers ever really see bolts, there pretty inoculous, and well above eye level. Unlike marker ben scrawled on the base of a cliff.

I'm not so sure about that.

12
 Lankyman 20 May 2023
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> I live near Scout Scar and Kalymnos it's not!

Perhaps if they opened a Greek restaurant in Underbarrow?

2
 midgen 20 May 2023
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

> It's called the Kalymnos effect 

Is it a thing in Kalymnos? Never been there. The routes at Kapetaniana have names hand painted blue on white stones discreetly at the bottom of each route which are rather nice imo! 

2
 simondgee 20 May 2023
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Not sure that non climbers diferentiate between 'Climber rocks' in the same way we loose our shit of the slightest ethical ripple. Its grafitti ...maybe it would be handy to marker pen on the wall of Nicks 'Nick Lives Here' to help the postman.
At scout scar scrawling 'Farage' 'Johnson' and 'Corbyn' on the crag ...really?

In reply to John Kettle:

it would be less intrusive to use the little QR code squares for the Griptonite app which are used in a lot of climbing centres. They’re attached with small hex bolts which seems to fit in with bolted routes pretty well.

17
 ExiledScot 21 May 2023
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> it would be less intrusive to use the little QR code squares 

Or just report them for vandalism or whatever offence graffiti falls under. I don't see the point in messing around.

10
In reply to midgen:

> Is it a thing in Kalymnos? Never been there.

This is one of the (few) things I don't like about Kalymnos. It does look a bit messy, but nobody seems to mind there. Their house, their rules 🤷🏻‍♂️

> The routes at Kapetaniana have names hand painted blue on white stones discreetly at the bottom of each route which are rather nice imo!

Some crags in Kalymnos do have this which is much less intrusive and, like you say, a rather nice touch

Post edited at 08:51
 Dan Arkle 21 May 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> Or just report them for vandalism or whatever offence graffiti falls under. I don't see the point in messing around.

Yes, get the Police and landowners and courts involved to adjudicate on our petty climbers squabbles. This is bound to lead to goods result for access..... 

Post edited at 09:11
 ExiledScot 21 May 2023
In reply to Dan Arkle:

> Yes, get the Police and landowners and courts involved to adjudicate on our petty climbers squabbles. This is bound to lead to goods result for access..... 

That is true and also why the collective we of climbers shouldn't tolerate it at all, not even suggest there are acceptable levels of graffiti. People located these routes and followed descriptions long before apps and gps plotting, there is just no need for writing, qr codes, named pebbles, initials or anything else on the rock. 

5
In reply to John Kettle:

> I had a good chat with him about it but he's absolutely not interested in seeking the opinion or endorsement of the wider community, he thinks it's fine to act on his belief.

I think this is something that should be taken up with the FRCC and BMC, then.

I might think that it's okay to act on my belief that rock graffitists should be bludgeoned with a large rock, even if the consensus says this is wrong...

4
 ExiledScot 21 May 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> I might think that it's okay to act on my belief that rock graffitists should be bludgeoned with a large rock, even if the consensus says this is wrong...

Fine, as long as the rock is proportional to the amount or scale of graffiti, don't want to be accursed of being over zealous. I'd line up those who spray permanent paint on stones for running events too.

Post edited at 11:09
1
 Ciro 21 May 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

I've changed my mind on this over the years.

I'm all for keeping our natural places natural, but if you're going to accept drilling holes in the rock, adding bolts, trundling blocks, "comfortising" (chipping) holds, "gardening" (de-vegitating the wall), glueing holds back on, applying hardener to the rock, and all the damage that traffic at the base of the wall causes, I think it's a bit silly to draw the line at adding a discrete name at the base of the route.

A busy sport crag is nothing like the environment that was there before we decided to make it a sport climbing venue; we've already changed it significantly for our convenience.

35
 Mark Eddy 21 May 2023
In reply to John Kettle:

I can see both sides of this. Painting names on trad routes is a no-no (and scratching names on them should be too, I can think of a few routes in Snowdonia that suffer this), but if done discretely on a sport route, why not?

Scout scar is hardly a major venue, from what I've heard of it, it's mostly choss although I've never bothered to visit so may be wrong on that.

As a member of the FRCC and clearly a very active climber here in the Lakes, there's a fair chance Nick has consulted others about the painting, possibly other FRCC members. Has this been raised with the club?

I visited Runestone quarry recently, hadn't been for a while and noticed there were plenty new developments. The guidebooks can't keep up. I get that Runestone is different and almost certainly only climbers would visit and therefore see any painting,  but is it really so bad? I mean come on, it's okay to rip out vegetation, trundle rocks, drill holes, place anchors and bolts, but the paint is wrong?!

30
 mrjonathanr 21 May 2023
In reply to Mark Eddy:

Bolts are integral to a sport route. Paint isn’t.

7
 Mark Eddy 21 May 2023
In reply to mrjonathanr:

Agreed. But bolts aren't an integral part of climbing.

Can't say I've done many decent bolted routes in the Lakes, most are pretty average at best. So why bother putting the bolts in at all? Come here to climb the outstanding trad routes and leave the the drill (and paint) behind. And if the bolting is going to continue (it is), then we really shouldn't be getting all precious about pristine crags, they aren't, we've altered them.

Post edited at 18:20
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 ExiledScot 21 May 2023
In reply to Mark Eddy:

I don't think just because a decision has been made to bolt a crag it justifies going the whole 9 yards, bolts make a crag climbable, or safe, writing names on is just unnecessary and lazy. 

5
 Ciro 21 May 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> I don't think just because a decision has been made to bolt a crag it justifies going the whole 9 yards, bolts make a crag climbable, or safe, writing names on is just unnecessary and lazy. 

Bolts often just make a climb more convenient.

Sometimes we even put them in old trad routes with the justification that they will get more traffic (the alternative being they'll go back to being unspoilt).

We're altering the environment significantly to have fun with it, and then pretending that we aren't.

I think the reason we don't like names on routes is because it calls out the lie we're telling ourselves.

10
OP loundsy 22 May 2023
In reply to John Kettle:

> Hi Tim I met the name-writer at the crag today, it's Nick Wharton, an active local climber and FRCC member.

> He told me he wants to set a precedent and thinks all uk sport routes should have their name written in permanent marker on the rock. He's re-written the ones I told him I recently removed.

> I had a good chat with him about it but he's absolutely not interested in seeking the opinion or endorsement of the wider community, he thinks it's fine to act on his belief.

This is the bit I find disappointing, I’m not sure what the outcome of the wider community opinion would be, I’d like to think it wouldn’t be supported but to just ignore it is a shame.

> He has plans to continue this at Chapel Head Scar once it opens. 

Oh no, not Chapel….

I don’t get why we need the names, it’s just graffiti on the rock on top of our impact already. Scout and Chapel are hardly places it’s tricky to work out which route is which. 
 

The whole thing makes me feel a bit sad.

1
 ExiledScot 22 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

> I think the reason we don't like names on routes is because it calls out the lie we're telling ourselves.

No, it serves a non-essential purpose. It is human laziness from people who can't be bother to read the guidebook that's justifying them, not some deeper psychological masking. 

Post edited at 08:05
3
 mike reed 22 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

This whole debate is a bit sad really. Smacks of hypocrisy too. 
We put bolts in crags, changing them forever. As mentioned, we clean them and alter them, ridding them of vegetation and loose rock, but its a no-no to write the name of the route at the bottom???
Thats nuts, sorry. A small name for identification and history is fine by me and I’m all for it. 

The biggest visual impact on the rock is the trail of chalk we leave behind, white patches everywhere. On most popular crags this is what we see first. Look at Biceps at Riglos. You can see the line from miles away!


Some crags are covered with weeping drip lines from bolts leaving lines over a metre long in some places, yet a little name at the base is causing an acrimonious keyboard debate?? Weird. 

Somebody mentioned Kalymnos. Other Greek venues have name tags too. There have been instances of massive names written under some routes. This is obviously wrong, but the addition of small stones, hand painted, or small metal plaques is really quite nice. 

31
 Lankyman 22 May 2023
In reply to mike reed:

So much whataboutery I can't be bothered to respond to your individual points. How would you feel if someone decides (completely unilaterally) to do anything at all that they see fit to do. Is there a limit you wouldn't put with? And why should your views have any weight? What if I decide to chip a few holds on Scout and Chapel Head to 'open them up' to a wider range of climbers? I've seen this on a crag in France so I think it'll be fine here. I don't really.

14
 Ciro 22 May 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> No, it serves a non-essential purpose. It is human laziness from people who can't be bother to read the guidebook that's justifying them, not some deeper psychological masking. 

Bolts that hold safety netting to prevent rockfall serve an essential purpose, bolts that make it more convenient for us to have leisure time on a particular piece of rock serve a non-essential purpose just like route names.

I think the fact that you class them as "essential" backs up my suggestion that we tend to try to pretend to ourselves that we're not having the environmental impact on the crag that we are, and don't like that hypocrisy being pointed out.

14
Message Removed 22 May 2023
Reason: Personal insults
 Dave Garnett 22 May 2023
In reply to Lankyman:

> So much whataboutery I can't be bothered to respond to your individual points. How would you feel if someone decides (completely unilaterally) to do anything at all that they see fit to do. 

Some might say that deciding to bolt a crag (plus all the cleaning and gardening) comes into that category.  Barring some specific restriction (like being an SSSI), the difference between that being acceptable or being criminal damage actually depends on the permission of the landowner.

Anyway, to be clear, I'm not advocating adding route names, but my original comment was just gently pointing out the cognitive dissonance required to believe that physically and permanently altering a rock face purely for our convenience is not just acceptable but desirable, but adding a discrete route name (that will fade and disappear within a couple of decades at most, even if it's painted on) is utterly objectionable.

Going out of your way to do something upsets a lot of your fellow climbers, even when this is pointed out to you, is a whole different argument.

Post edited at 10:25
 ExiledScot 22 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

I presume you're joking comparing safety netting preventing a passer-by being potentially killed to naming routes for lazy people as the same kind of justification or reasoning?

I rarely ever do sport routes, easily going an entire year without any clipping bolts, I feel no need for chalk on low grades, i won't mixed winter climb classic summer rock routes, I'm happy to walk further rather than roadside park, use park and ride, cycle.... I try to practice as best I can low impact use, no one is perfect of course our presence alone has impact, erosion etc.. 

To me the walk in, reading the description, spotting the line up the face, locating the bottom of route etc..  that's all part of the day, even the fun of is/n't this our route! 

7
 fotoVUE 22 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Was done at Malham in 1986. They lasted a week.

 fred99 22 May 2023

In reply to duncan:

> It's hard when faced with such intransigence but I suppose discussing at the local BMC meeting or a quiet word from FRCC colleagues might help??

Maybe being threatened with being chucked out of the FRCC for potentially bringing it into disrepute might "alter" his views.  

5
 Darkinbad 22 May 2023
In reply to Lankyman:

> So much whataboutery I can't be bothered to respond to your individual points.

I've never understood why some commentators (in forums generally, not just UKC) get so worked up about whataboutery. In a discussion of A, what is so bad about raising related issues B and C that are clearly more egregious than A? It has a bearing on the relative importance of the issue under discussion and the possible hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance of a poster's arguments for/against A. Obviously it is a fallacy to infer that if B and C are bad but accepted, then A must be accepted too. But the main point is (or should be) to put A into context.

3
 ExiledScot 22 May 2023
In reply to Darkinbad:

Exactly, it's graffiti or vandalism no matter how you dress it up. Permanently writing on, defacing or damaging something which isn’t yours without permission. 

1
 Howard J 22 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

This is commonplace in some European sport climbing destinations.  There I must admit to welcoming the convenience while feeling unhappy about the visual intrusion.  However they have their own climbing traditions and cultures - their rules.  The UK also has its own culture and traditions, and up to now this sort of thing hasn't been acceptable.  It is also part of our culture and traditions that actions which materially affect the rock or other climbers shouldn't be the decision of one individual but should be discussed and agreed through the BMC.  This person has breached both those conventions.  

 fotoVUE 22 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

the strongest argument against writing route names on the rock, is access; to non-climbers, land owners, land managers etc it is graffiti/vandalism and could cause access restrictions, especially if the cliff is in public view..... something that whoever did this may like to reflect on.

1
 Darkinbad 22 May 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> Exactly, it's graffiti or vandalism no matter how you dress it up. Permanently writing on, defacing or damaging something which isn’t yours without permission. 

Well, yes. But the point is that the same could be said of cleaning a route or placing bolts. The issue is not whether these activities constitute graffiti or vandalism. The issue is whether or not they are accepted by the community of people who care (one way or the other).

 fotoVUE 22 May 2023
In reply to Darkinbad:

Whilst contentious, bolts and chalk (cleaning routes less so) are accepted, even by land owners/managers.

The issue is exactly vandalism/graffiti as viewed by by land owners/managers/non-climbing public. It's not bolts and chalk that will cause access issues (although they have done).

> the community of people who care 

You mean climbers? Once you start spraying a crag with graffiti (vandalism) we (climbers/BMC) lose our informal status as responsible custodians.

You could argue that this discussion on here paints climbers in a bad light if read by land managers/owners.

 Ciro 22 May 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> I presume you're joking comparing safety netting preventing a passer-by being potentially killed to naming routes for lazy people as the same kind of justification or reasoning?

I'm not sure how you took that from my post.

To clarify, I was comparing safety netting bolts (essential) to sport climbing bolts (non-essential) to counter your point.

 Darkinbad 22 May 2023
In reply to fotoVUE:

> > the community of people who care 

> You mean climbers?

Yes. And also land owners/managers/non-climbing public, if they care. But that is not entirely a given, as suggested by the apparent acceptability of this practice at venues in other countries.

FWIW, I would prefer not to see such labels pop up on UK crags (he says, despite no longer being a UK resident).

Message Removed 22 May 2023
Reason: inappropriate content
 Darkinbad 22 May 2023
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> it would be less intrusive to use the little QR code squares for the Griptonite app which are used in a lot of climbing centres. They’re attached with small hex bolts which seems to fit in with bolted routes pretty well.

Surely in these days of impending AI supremacy it should suffice to simply point your phone at a line to get a full description, beta and a suggested rack.

 Ron Kenyon 22 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Interesting threat -  and somewhat amazed (or am I) at what Nick has done.

As far as I know this has not been discussed at any FRCC meeting (certainly not at the meeting last tuesday)  -  and if it is to be discussed then should be at the wider forum of the Lakes Area BMC.  

I can see Nick is throwing this into the climbing world for discussion -  and here we have it on the UKC -  and as usually there is a wide range of opinions though feel  that generally against names. 

Rather saddened by Nick's attitude of sod you this is what I want  -  he should now assess opinions.  

I can see some benefit of names on crags but it defaces the crag -  but then what about the wearing away of the tracks to the bottom and the polished holds which in time are created. But do we want graffiti along the base of the crag !

As a country we are against signage for routes and also footpaths  -  I was talking to someone recently about the need to navigate on paths in the UK whereas in Austria, Switzerland etc there is comprehensive signage  -  but we definitely don't need that.

Do we then put names at the bottom of trad routes  -  sometimes it is difficult to find the both but with guides available this is usually not a problem.  I see Mark Eddy comment on the new routes at Runestone -  there are now pdfs available for the whole quarry and other new crags on the FRCC website.  I remember being at Craig y Barcud when a young lady climber thought she was leading Metamorphosis (HS) but was actually on Be Brave (E1) and was doing the direct finish (E3) when she winged off and had to be rescued by helicopter  -  not a good outcome but she has no doubt learned from the experience -  a name at the bottom would have helped but we don't need it. 

Sports crags are becoming an extension of climbing walls  -  there is the need to help climbers moving from one to another but a topo and a guide should be enough without scrawling names along the bottom of the crag.  

There are other issues also lurking in the background for consideration -  on which there will be a big spread of opinions.

2
 fotoVUE 22 May 2023
In reply to Darkinbad:

> Yes. And also land owners/managers/non-climbing public, if they care. But that is not entirely a given, as suggested by the apparent acceptability of this practice at venues in other countries.

I can assure you land managers/owners and some members of passing non-climbing public in the UK care whether climbers write on rocks. Anyway, this was 'tested' nearly 30 years ago at the dawn of sport climbing in the UK. The climbing community reacted within a week and the route names were instantly removed. Same this time.

Ron Kenyon's 'excuse' < I can see Nick is throwing this into the climbing world for discussion> is hilarious. Although I do sympathise with those who provoke discussion by provocative actions (smiley face).

There is no argument for painting route names on the rock, in the UK, or elsewhere. It's vandalism.

5
 ExiledScot 22 May 2023
In reply to Darkinbad:

> Well, yes. But the point is that the same could be said of cleaning a route or placing bolts. The issue is not whether these activities constitute graffiti or vandalism. The issue is whether or not they are accepted by the community of people who care (one way or the other).

No, it's landowners permission. The climbing community viewpoint is irrelevant. 

3
In reply to Ciro:

> I've changed my mind on this over the years.

> I'm all for keeping our natural places natural, but if you're going to accept drilling holes in the rock, adding bolts, trundling blocks, "comfortising" (chipping) holds, "gardening" (de-vegitating the wall), glueing holds back on, applying hardener to the rock, and all the damage that traffic at the base of the wall causes, I think it's a bit silly to draw the line at adding a discrete name at the base of the route.

> A busy sport crag is nothing like the environment that was there before we decided to make it a sport climbing venue; we've already changed it significantly for our convenience.

Quite right... and with all that going on thre'd be no need to take litter home with you either.

4
 ExiledScot 22 May 2023
In reply to Darkinbad:

> Surely in these days of impending AI supremacy it should suffice to simply point your phone at a line to get a full description, beta and a suggested rack.

Or given that the uk produces arguably the worlds best maps and guidebooks just rely on more traditional means. 

 Neil Foster Global Crag Moderator 22 May 2023

In reply to duncan:

> Quote removed

So many assumptions, and so many wrong!

Whilst the tone of this thread doesn't surprise me, given how UKC is sadly frequented by a baying mob nowadays, I'm really surprised at your contribution Duncan.

I don't agree with what Nick has done here, and I haven't spoken to him about it.  But the character assassination in this thread, almost undoubtedly from people who have never met Nick, is the kind of thing I'd expect to read in the Daily Mail, rather than in a rational discussion between fellow climbers.

I climb to escape the devisive rhetoric which seeps into so many other parts our daily lives.  It makes me quite sad when those attitudes filter into climbing discourse...

Neil

4
 fotoVUE 22 May 2023
In reply to Neil Foster:

I was surprised that character assassination wasn't deleted. It was very nasty.

3
 Luke90 22 May 2023
In reply to Neil Foster:

> I climb to escape the devisive rhetoric which seeps into so many other parts our daily lives.  It makes me quite sad when those attitudes filter into climbing discourse...

I agree that Duncan's post got rather speculative and personal, but by and large the posts here are simply reflective of the strength of feeling that this guy's divisive actions have provoked. By all accounts, he's experienced enough to know that people will be opposed to his actions, and has been told as much in person. You reap what you sow. If people were being all mealy-mouthed and excessively polite about it, the conclusion might just be that nobody's really that bothered so crack on.

Since when has the climbing community ever been a haven away from disagreement and entrenched opinions anyway? Bolts, chalk, winter conditions etc... there are plenty of bitter arguments.

1
 Ciro 22 May 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> No, it's landowners permission. The climbing community viewpoint is irrelevant. 

If it's only the landowners permission that's relevant, then I take it you think it should be on a case by case basis?

If we're asking for permission, we must be talking to landowners before putting bolts in anyway. 

I'm trying to imagine that conversation going something like:

Climber: mind if I drill some holes in your rock, install bolts, trundle blocks, strip vegetation and create paths that will bring loads of people onto your land to do sport?

Landowner: sure, no problem.

Climber: thanks, that's great. Oh, do you mind if I write the route names on small stones and mortar them onto the bottom of the routes so that climbers can identify them quickly and easily?

Landowner: NO! That's a step too far.

And to me it seems highly implausible.

In the context of the changes we make to develop a sport crag, this seems to me to be far too small to be the straw that breaks the camel's back in most cases.

16
 Ciro 22 May 2023
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> Quite right... and with all that going on thre'd be no need to take litter home with you either.

Sarcasm and hyperbole don't add anything useful to the debate.

3
 Rob Exile Ward 22 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

I think this on the whole is a pretty reasonable debate. It would be good to hear from the victim/perpetrator/martyr/guru/vandal/visionary himself (delete those that don't apply.)

OP loundsy 22 May 2023
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Okay, there is no need for route names on any crag in the uk imo, yes it happens in some other countries on some crags. 
It’s been tried before at Malham see Mick’s post above, it didn’t last. One individual has decided it’s okay and gone for it, no consultation and re John’s post above isn’t interested.

There may be some call for it from a minority as far as I can tell from this thread alone, nobody I’ve spoken to is in favour of it but of course I’m not oblivious that not everyone will agree but this is where a consensus should have been sought.

if it’s going to happen at chapel as mentioned above im sure that won’t help access there, just read the access notes.

For me it’s unnecessary graffiti which serves no purpose.

Tim
 

 Kiri 22 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

Humans have an environmental impact all over the planet. Red marker pen on rock probably has minimal, if any impact on the environment. It’s simply looks shit! For people who appreciate visiting a beautiful crag with a stunning walk in it’s about the aesthetic impact. The bolts blend in to the rock, a scrawl of red marker pen is slightly harder to miss

 wbo2 22 May 2023
In reply to Kiri: I should like to see this offending text, but having been to many crags with the name on the base (yes in Norway ) I suspect it is near invisible  unless you are actively looking, and less visible than the bolts, abandoned krabs, tat or chalked holds.  

No this has not been a reasonable debate in this thread. Don't kid yourself

7
 Rob Parsons 22 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:.

> Photos on Instagram under #ukclimbing

I can't find those. So that we know what's being discussed, can you either provide a direct link, or put the same images in your gallery here? Thanks.

OP loundsy 22 May 2023
In reply to wbo2:

The names are more visible than the bolts, chalk etc and totally unnecessary. It’s not happening anywhere else in the uk and doesn’t need to happen in the south lakes as an example of good practice or what should be the new norm. 

1
 Rob Exile Ward 22 May 2023
In reply to wbo2:

You can't have a bolted sports route without ... er, bolts. You can have them without names painted on the rock. It's about minimising impact, not eliminating it.

1
OP loundsy 22 May 2023
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Added one to my gallery just now 

 Alex Riley 22 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

There's a large recently developed sport crag in North Wales which has route name plaques, put in by the bolters/first ascentionists. Everyone locally seems fairly happy with it.

As far as I'm concerned as soon as bolts go in, the rock is changed forever, a few little name tags are a drop in the ocean (and are usually removable unlike the bolt holes).

15
 Ciro 22 May 2023
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> You can't have a bolted sports route without ... er, bolts. You can have them without names painted on the rock. It's about minimising impact, not eliminating it.

You can have a route without a line of bolts though - if it's about minimising impact we could stop drilling holes in the rock and climb trad, or reduce it to just bolting a top rope anchor if you want a super safe route.

Bolts are there for our convenience, the same as a route names would be.

17
OP loundsy 22 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

But with a topo you don’t need the names. So let’s not add them. 

 Kiri 22 May 2023
In reply to Alex Riley: presumably this has been artfully and tastefully done? A load of red graffiti at eye level looks horrible 

 Iamgregp 22 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

So whilst I’m not advocating that we start writing route names on the rock, though personally it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest, I would like to add a story for context…

My first day out sport climbing at a U.K. crag, was looking for a very easy to to warm up on, it was meant to be the furthest right in the crag. Inexperienced me found that line, thought it didn’t look quite right compared to the topo but figured the vegetation around had changed since the photo. Got on it. Pulled off a hold whilst coming though a steep part. Inverted, slammed against rock. Had a bruise on my back that was there for months and would have been badly injured, possibly brain damaged, were it not for my helmet.

My silly fault? Yes.

Would painted names on the crag have tipped this? Also yes.

Does that mean we should have names painted on? Don’t care one way or the other. I’m better at looking at topos now.

Poont is, they’re not entirely without merit, and that’s all I’d say on the matter.

To whoever gave me a cup of hot coffee thanks, that helped! 

And yes. I got back on and sent the f****r

29
 Luke90 22 May 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Inexperienced me found that line, thought it didn’t look quite right compared to the topo but figured the vegetation around had changed since the photo. Got on it. Pulled off a hold whilst coming though a steep part. Inverted, slammed against rock.

> Would painted names on the crag have tipped this? Also yes.

Painted names wouldn't have stopped a hold from pulling off.

And in the context of other threads about people's lack of awareness of access issues, reducing reliance on guidebooks that might actually point to that information seems like a retrograde step.

6
In reply to Ciro:

> You can have a route without a line of bolts though - if it's about minimising impact we could stop drilling holes in the rock and climb trad, or reduce it to just bolting a top rope anchor if you want a super safe route.

> Bolts are there for our convenience, the same as a route names would be.

So you want the bolts removed? I finally get where you are coming from.

2
 Ciro 23 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

> But with a topo you don’t need the names. So let’s not add them. 

What if you turn up at the crag and find you've forgotten your topo?

What if you're passing through an area and stop off at a crag you don't have a topo for?

What if you're visually impaired and can't see the crag on a scale that allows you to identify where you are accurately?

What if (as noted by another poster) a beginner with no clipstick and limited skills to deal with the situation misreads the topo and gets on a line way above their grade resulting in a dangerous epic?

My preferred aesthetic abroad is the little stone placards mortared into the wall; they're not much more obtrusive than an extra bolt (less so if you consider the distance bolts can be seen from on a sunny day) they can be removed at any time in the future (so don't permanently change the rock unlike bolts), and because a bit of care and attention goes into them, to the casual observer a line of them along the crag will obviously have a purpose (even if you don't know what that is) so won't look like graffiti.

Once you've turned the crag into a sanitised bolted play park, why not tastefully signpost the rides?

35
 ExiledScot 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

You just know the sort of person who wants and needs routes named on the rock, will feel justified writing names on other crags, then get them wrong, we'll have crossings out and all sorts of mess. 

4
 ExiledScot 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

> Once you've turned the crag into a sanitised bolted play park, why not tastefully signpost the rides?

How did the user find the crag even existed? By looking on line or in a book, thus they are already in a position to gain all the information they need. They'll likely still want to know route length, difficulty of pitches or should we write that at the bottom too? 

2
 Ciro 23 May 2023
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> So you want the bolts removed? I finally get where you are coming from.

Not at all, I love sport climbing.

I just see our collective attitude to it in this country a bit hypocritical.

Years ago I would have agreed with the majority of posters on here.

But the way I see it now, we all go out to spain and benefit from the locals putting route names and grades on their bolted routes, but couldn't possibly do the same for anyone coming into our areas because we're still pretending bolting the crag isn't sanitising it.

We want the convenience of sport, but keep the feeling of being custodians of the wild places who turn up quietly, do our thing, and leave no trace.

A sport crag can have beautiful views and a feeling of being in nature, but it will never be the same as a remote sea cliff trad line. We're still trying to marry the two, so that we can pretend our "pure" climbing ethic hasn't evolved.

That's egotistical nonsense IMO.

14
 Ciro 23 May 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> How did the user find the crag even existed? By looking on line or in a book, thus they are already in a position to gain all the information they need. They'll likely still want to know route length, difficulty of pitches or should we write that at the bottom too? 

Not necessarily - I've rocked up at crags in Europe that I've seen whilst driving along the road (because bolts can be seen from miles around), found route names and grades at the bottom making it easy to judge warmup routes and progression, had a nice afternoon's climbing and left without even knowing where I was.

8
 Enty 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

Exactly this. 

Drilling, rock removal, vegetation removal, lumberjacking, bird nest removal, gluing on holds, reinforcement with resin, hold improvement, even chipping, creation of new paths - all ok.

Discreetly painted route name - oh no no no.

Hilarious.

E

15
 ExiledScot 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

>   .... whilst driving....(because bolts can be seen from miles around), .

Are you Steve Austin?

1
 ExiledScot 23 May 2023
In reply to Enty:

> Exactly this. 

> Drilling, rock removal, vegetation removal, lumberjacking, bird nest removal, gluing on holds, reinforcement with resin, hold improvement, even chipping,

I'd happily ban all of these. 

5
 Ciro 23 May 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> >   .... whilst driving....(because bolts can be seen from miles around), .

> Are you Steve Austin?

You don't need special powers to see sunlight reflecting off a line of bolts from half way down the valley.

You also don't need special powers to see the patches of white powder, dark streaks below bolts, and wear patches around bolts that identify a sport venue from the road a bit closer in.

7
 Ciro 23 May 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> I'd happily ban all of these. 

Do you boycott sport climbing or do you benefit from these actions?

8
 Lankyman 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

> What if you turn up at the crag and find you've forgotten your topo?

> What if you're passing through an area and stop off at a crag you don't have a topo for?

> What if you're visually impaired and can't see the crag on a scale that allows you to identify where you are accurately?

> What if (as noted by another poster) a beginner with no clipstick and limited skills to deal with the situation misreads the topo and gets on a line way above their grade resulting in a dangerous epic?

Oh come off it - now I know you're extracting the wee! Anyone afflicted by much of the above probably can't wipe their own @rse without having a diagram painted on the bog

3
 mrjonathanr 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

> What if you turn up at the crag and find you've forgotten your topo?

> What if you're passing through an area and stop off at a crag you don't have a topo for?

> What if you're visually impaired and can't see the crag on a scale that allows you to identify where you are accurately?

> What if (as noted by another poster) a beginner with no clipstick and limited skills to deal with the situation misreads the topo and gets on a line way above their grade resulting in a dangerous epic?

If you lack basic competence, acquire it.

> Once you've turned the crag into a sanitised bolted play park, why not tastefully signpost the rides?

Because the crag environment is not actually a funfair and the principle of minimising intrusion into the natural environment should apply. You can debate the merit of fixed gear, but it is essential if the routes are to become sport routes (a worthwhile debate in itself, though on a separate topic) but writing on rock is not essential for the activity to take place. Your argument that it is, to assist those too incompetent to manage without it, is so weak as to be meritless.

 Rob Exile Ward 23 May 2023
In reply to mrjonathanr:

Given the vague route descriptions and impressionistic diagrams in the early 70s, it was amazing that we ever found the start of routes at all.

Apart from Grooved Arete, obviously.

 Enty 23 May 2023
In reply to Kiri:

Agree. That's a bit scruffy and a bit lazy. 

Much prefer a bit of artwork or even the ceramic tiles like down at St. Leger. 

E

1
 Rob Parsons 23 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

> Added one to my gallery just now 

Thanks. Unfortunately I can't see it in your gallery. Don't know why ...

 Ciro 23 May 2023
In reply to mrjonathanr:

> If you lack basic competence, acquire it.

A lot of people acquire that competence at sport climbing crags over time.

> Because the crag environment is not actually a funfair and the principle of minimising intrusion into the natural environment should apply. You can debate the merit of fixed gear, but it is essential if the routes are to become sport routes (a worthwhile debate in itself, though on a separate topic) but writing on rock is not essential for the activity to take place.

As soon as we start bolting we are taming the natural environment. The extent of the taming should very much be up for debate, unless we are to go back to a "no fixed gear" ethic.

> Your argument that it is, to assist those too incompetent to manage without it, is so weak as to be meritless.

The argument that sport climbing should be accessible to as many people as possible is entirely without merit?

I'd counter that's very elitist.

19
OP loundsy 23 May 2023
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Waiting to be approved still.

 Rob Parsons 23 May 2023
In reply to Kiri:

> discreet?

Is that for real? It almost looks photoshopped. (Or as if the letters have been drawn with blood ...)

If it is for real: How large are the letters? What are they painted/drawn with? And how are they being removed without damaging the rock?

Post edited at 11:02
 jezb1 23 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Some slate routes have the names written on bits of slate under the route.

Once upon a time I’d have been grumpy about it.

https://instagram.com/stories/jbmountainskills/3108339883114436034?utm_sour...

1
 ExiledScot 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

> I'd counter that's very elitist.

Since when has being capable of reading a guidebook or route description been considered a skill only mastered by the elite? 

1
 Ciro 23 May 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

> Since when has being capable of reading a guidebook or route description been considered a skill only mastered by the elite? 

Did you miss the point about the visually impaired?

What about the kid from the council estate who has climbing gear but who's parents can't afford a guidebook in a cost of living crisis?

What about the asylum seeker with borrowed gear and limited English to understand descriptions?

What about the illiterate kid with learning disabilities from an alcoholic home who wasn't made to go to school?

Making things accessible involves thinking about those with disadvantages and making it easy.

You don't turn up at a nature park and get handed a guidebook that tells you all you need to know to navigate around, they put signposts around to guide you.

Installing bolts is creating a theme park, once you do that, you might as well make it accessible.

Post edited at 11:54
43
 ianstevens 23 May 2023
In reply to Enty:

> Exactly this. 

> Drilling, rock removal, vegetation removal, lumberjacking, bird nest removal, gluing on holds, reinforcement with resin, hold improvement, even chipping, creation of new paths - all ok.

> Discreetly painted route name - oh no no no.

> Hilarious.

Agreed. What are the odds half the complainers on this thread go on Euro bolt holidays where everything is labelled, and that the other half don't believe in bolts and do one VD every three years?

The idea that anywhere in the UK is a natural landscape is insane. The idea that anywhere people climb is a peaceful natural landscape is insane. Some paint detracts from nothing in places which are, as you outline, extensively modified, even above and beyond what we think of as "natural" in the UK.

> E

26
 pasbury 23 May 2023
In reply to Darkinbad:

> I've never understood why some commentators (in forums generally, not just UKC) get so worked up about whataboutery. In a discussion of A, what is so bad about raising related issues B and C that are clearly more egregious than A? It has a bearing on the relative importance of the issue under discussion and the possible hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance of a poster's arguments for/against A. Obviously it is a fallacy to infer that if B and C are bad but accepted, then A must be accepted too. But the main point is (or should be) to put A into context.

You've answered your own question.

I don't know why people are talking about bolts (it's not as if this separate discussion isn't covered on this site in other threads).

 pasbury 23 May 2023
In reply to ianstevens:

I'm not insane for being aware of the human modification to our landscape and climbs, which extends from graffitied urban quarries (actually made by humans) to ocean blasted sea cliffs (as natural as can be).

Today I'm going to write a name in sharpie under a sport climb.

Tomorrow I'm going to paint 'Cenotaph Corner' on the Cromlech - I'll use red.

Then I'm going to spray paint 'Nelson's Column' on that big phallic thing in Trafalgar Square and whilst I'm at it I'll pop into the national portrait gallery and write the names of the some of the people depicted on those paintings to save people looking them up on the label.

Maybe I'm engaging in whataboutery but all my examples are me doing the SAME THING.

8
 tmawer 23 May 2023

> Installing bolts is creating a theme park, once you do that, you might as well make it accessible.

But isn't accessibility a matter of degree?

Scout scar is a little difficult to access physically, and would your points stretch to enabling easy access for the physically disabled as well as those with difficulties reading or affording the guide or gear? I wonder where your no doubt laudable  desire to make things accessible would end for crags that are bolted. I think the accessibility argument soon becomes a bit daft.

 Rob Parsons 23 May 2023
In reply to pasbury:

> Then I'm going to spray paint 'Nelson's Column' on that big phallic thing in Trafalgar Square and whilst I'm at it I'll pop into the national portrait gallery and write the names of the some of the people depicted on those paintings to save people looking them up on the label.

Ah, righto. After you've done all that, please post back here to let us know how you got on. I'll be watching out for it on the news.

 Wicamoi 23 May 2023
In reply to tmawer:

What all the pro-labellers seem to be overlooking is that a crag does not belong to sport climbers. It is not for us to decide that it is to be a climbing theme park. It is a bit of nature for everyone. We should resist any unnecessary intrusion into our resources of nature precisely because they are already so denuded. I think we should resist name tags at the base of sport routes just as we resist commemorative plaques on Ben Nevis. Loving a thing does not confer ownership. Other people may love it too, and differently to us.

At the base of the justifications for labelling, repeated in a variety of ways, is this ethic: We've done one selfish thing, so we may as well do another. It does not take Immanuel Kant to work out that living by such a maxim will not lead to the greatest good of the greatest number. Whatever happened to 'leaving nothing but footprints'?

1
 TobyA 23 May 2023
In reply to ianstevens:

That's a pretty odd argument which feels like it is lapsing into something approaching nihilism. Are you having a crappy week?

> Agreed. What are the odds half the complainers on this thread go on Euro bolt holidays where everything is labelled,

I've climbed at a good number of sport crags around Europe where I've not noticed names painted on the rock. I think when I climbed a few routes when on holiday in Menorca last autumn the names weren't painted on - and that's holiday rock in Spain!

> and that the other half don't believe in bolts and do one VD every three years?

What grade and regularity of climbing does someone need to attain to have the right to an opinion on this?

> The idea that anywhere in the UK is a natural landscape is insane.

Sure.

> The idea that anywhere people climb is a peaceful natural landscape is insane.

If you mean by "natural" unaffected by human beings since the dawn of time, then sure.

> Some paint detracts from nothing in places which are, as you outline, extensively modified, even above and beyond what we think of as "natural" in the UK.

And here we get to the complete non sequitur. How do you know it detracts nothing? That's your opinion. I've climbed on boulder problems in Helsinki where the grade actually changed depending on whether they were covered in graffiti again or if the city had sent the cleaners around to blast the paint off. Covering rock with paint definitely detracts something in my experience. 

In the last few years I've climbed quite a lot in not particularly old quarries, some still have plenty of bits of industrial detritus/heritage in them. Some, like the Slate quarries, have an aesthetic value due to that stuff left behind. That doesn't mean that when some knob chucks his Red Bull can down or takes a dump and doesn't bury or hide it properly, it's not gross. I pick up litter in Horseshoe (although there rarely seems to be much) just like I'd do at Curbar. What is litter if not matter out of place?

The norm in the UK that we have developed is we that don't write on the rock. We have though developed a norm that in certain limited circumstances we bolt rock to allow climbing. Neither of those are fixed and unchangeable but that's where we are currently. Written route names are matter out of place to most of us, so I wouldn't expect most people to accept them just because they are in old quarry or above a sheep cropped moor.

I've seen spray can graffiti on rocks post lockdowns (Baslow I think was the last place I noticed it). Do you think it shouldn't be cleaned off and discouraged just because its not a natural environment? That's what feels nihilistic. Why bother doing anything?

 Ciro 23 May 2023
In reply to Wicamoi:

> Whatever happened to 'leaving nothing but footprints'?

At a sport crag???

15
 Ciro 23 May 2023
In reply to pasbury:

> Today I'm going to write a name in sharpie under a sport climb.

> I'll pop into the national portrait gallery and write the names of the some of the people depicted on those paintings to save people looking them up on the label.

> Maybe I'm engaging in whataboutery but all my examples are me doing the SAME THING.

Only in the same sense that writing a name on a blank sheet of A4 is the SAME THING

In the art gallery, the label has already been displayed at the scene of the thing being named, at the crag you'd be adding a naming label to something that's not been labelled yet.

If we just labelled them at the point of creation, the difference to the environment between labelling and not labelling would be infinitesimally small when viewed against the backdrop of what's been done to create the route.

17
 Wicamoi 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

> At a sport crag???

The point of the Countryside Code, as you know, is not that the countryside is a pristine, but that we should endeavour not to introduce further damage. One leaves footprints on a footpath after all.

 LakesWinter 23 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Thanks to everyone who has been scrubbing them off. Adding route names to the bottom of routes is not needed in the uk, is lazy and adds unnecessary graffiti to the rock. Please keep scrubbing - if I was more local I would be scrubbing too.

5
 mrphilipoldham 23 May 2023
In reply to deacondeacon:

*Tongue in cheek*

On the contrary, route names labelled on the rock offer all climbers access to the rock, not just those lucky enough to be able to afford guidebooks. Find out the crag and grade on the UKC logbook for free, then go and have fun. No pesky outlay for some paper inconvenience. 

*Tongue out of cheek*

1
In reply to Ciro:

you’re outraging the Boomers Ciro! I’m still holding out for a very low first (not for clipping) bolt with a qr tag for the crag app. No need to write on the rock, and bolts are ok on a sport route. 

13
 mrphilipoldham 23 May 2023
In reply to mike reed:

> The biggest visual impact on the rock is the trail of chalk we leave behind, white patches everywhere.

We? Speak for yourself. Some of us are quite vocal about the mess it makes, and usually disliked for doing so.

> Some crags are covered with weeping drip lines from bolts leaving lines over a metre long in some places, yet a little name at the base is causing an acrimonious keyboard debate?? Weird. 

Some of us are vocal about the visual impact of bolts, and it’s always dismissed as ‘you can’t see them from the path’. Good to have some acceptance that’s not always so.

2
 Howard J 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

> As soon as we start bolting we are taming the natural environment. The extent of the taming should very much be up for debate, unless we are to go back to a "no fixed gear" ethic.

But that's the point. There are well-established mechanisms to debate new innovations through the BMC, and hopefully arrive at a consensus which most climbers can go along with. This is a unilateral action by a single individual who is refusing to enter into any discussions and apparently intends to persist despite facing opposition.

 ExiledScot 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

> Did you miss the point about the visually impaired?

Are they both visually impaired? Who drove? 

> What about the kid from the council estate who has climbing gear but who's parents can't afford a guidebook in a cost of living crisis?

So they've got a rope, rack, shoes, harness, helmet, chalk bag, beley device etc... but no funds for a book, a photocopy, or screen shot, app? 

> What about the asylum seeker with borrowed gear and limited English to understand descriptions?

We coped for decades in other countries even before Google translate.

> What about the illiterate kid with learning disabilities from an alcoholic home who wasn't made to go to school?

Can they read the route name written on the rock? Then the guidebook to see the grade? 

> Making things accessible involves thinking about those with disadvantages and making it easy.

Scout scar isn't a natural choice as your most accessible crag in the world is it? 

> You don't turn up at a nature park and get handed a guidebook that tells you all you need to know to navigate around, they put signposts around to guide you.

Signs made of wood put in the ground, not permanently carved into trees or written on rocks.

Edit- https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/visiting-woods/woods/sizergh-helsington-ba...

Quite nearby, i bet they've loads more information online than carved into trees. 

> installing bolts is creating a theme park, once you do that, you might as well make it accessible.

It's hardly alton towers just because it's bolted. 

Post edited at 15:17
 pasbury 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

> In the art gallery, the label has already been displayed at the scene of the thing being named, at the crag you'd be adding a naming label to something that's not been labelled yet.

Guidebook? Even if people can't be bothered with paper ones then it's not exactly a stretch to get a topo up on your phone.

 mike reed 23 May 2023
In reply to Luke90:

Comments like this one Luke really grind me gears. Read the post again.

He was on the wrong route, because he misidentified it. He’s saying a name under it would have meant he got on the right route.

A small name tag is all thats needed, its not graffiti. 

But, as ever, in a democracy the majority rules. Uk rules, Uk ethics. All good.  

20
 Luke90 23 May 2023
In reply to mike reed:

> Comments like this one Luke really grind me gears. Read the post again.

> He was on the wrong route, because he misidentified it. He’s saying a name under it would have meant he got on the right route.

I completely understood that. And yes, my post was a bit tongue in cheek because obviously he wasn't under the mistaken impression that name tags stop rock from breaking. But ultimately, the rock didn't break because he was on the wrong route, the rock broke because sometimes rock does that when we heave on it. That's a risk of climbing that we have to accept, and it could also have happened on the route he intended to climb instead. Maybe I should have been less sarcastic and spelled out my argument a bit more, but I gave a slightly silly reply because I thought linking his injury to lack of names on the rock was also silly.

2
 Iamgregp 23 May 2023
In reply to Luke90:

All very true.   

However in this case as I was on completely the wrong route, it was much too hard for me so, in desperation, I traversed far too far to one side to get round a difficult bulge, taking me completely off route onto a section of rock that wasn't really on any route.

As we all know, holds can snap off any route at any time, but certainly holds are much more likely to come off on sections of rock that haven't got a route on them and haven't been subject to the usual cleaning, and there's no way I would have needed to do this had I been on the correct route (found it afterwards, it was very straightforward)

This was all my own silly fault, and despite what people may think I'm very much of the opinion that it was my own inexperience, stupidity and misplaced bravado that caused this accident, not the lack of route names.

Yes, this sequence of events could have been avoided if they were there, but it was all fine in the end, I learnt something, lived to tell the tale and am not bothered either way if route names are there or not.  If the consensus is that they shouldn't be I'm fine with that.

One good thing that came from this was at the time I used to sometimes wear my helmet.  For some reason I chose to that day, and since then I have every single time since.

Post edited at 17:03
 Kiri 23 May 2023
In reply to Rob Parsons: yes this for real and not photoshopped. Thankfully pretty sure it’s not blood either - yikes! Letters are about 1cm. The writing is at eye level. Possibly red marker pen? Discreet or tastefully done it is not. 
 

> Is that for real? It almost looks photoshopped. (Or as if the letters have been drawn with blood ...)

> If it is for real: How large are the letters? What are they painted/drawn with? And how are they being removed without damaging the rock?

Post edited at 17:52
 Kiri 23 May 2023
In reply to mike reed:

Scout scar is privately owned by Richard baggort of Levens hall estate. It is designated as a sssi. Large areas of the estate are accessible to the public. Had the land owner and managers been consulted on this issue they may even have decided to instal name plaques for the routes themselves for the sake of accessibility. I’m pretty sure they have not been consulted and way the routes have been labeled is not subtle or in keeping with the area. 

 peppermill 23 May 2023
In reply to Ciro:

They'd go there with someone else who had a guidebook/draws/rope etc etc and knew how to use them??

Like plenty of us did as kids with no idea where to start/money to buy gear??

 Rob Parsons 23 May 2023
In reply to Kiri:

> Scout scar is privately owned by Richard baggort of Levens hall estate.

Ah right, thanks. I've been wondering about ownership.

> Had the land owner and managers been consulted on this issue they may even have decided to instal name plaques for the routes themselves for the sake of accessibility. I’m pretty sure they have not been consulted  ...

It would be nice to confirm whether or not they have been asked.

1
 Stuart Wood 23 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

The UKC keyboard warriors on here is what I despise about a certain proportion of the climbing community and why I'm not inspired to 'get back on the bike'.

Nick W is the most inspiring motivated climber I have ever had the privilege to share a rope with.

Grow up and get some perspective. 

Woody

66
 Al Doig 23 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

At the end of the day who wants route names written at the base of climbs in the UK? Who was consulted? Etc, etc…

Personally I don’t. Unnecessary. 

OP loundsy 23 May 2023
In reply to Stuart Wood:

Nick has done some amazing things as a climber. Writing names in red at the bottom of routes at scout scar is not one of them and shouldn’t become the norm in the uk for me or as far as I can tell the wider climbing community. I’ll remove the names from scout and anywhere else locally until a consensus is sought via the local area meets which says it’s okay. 

3
 Rob Exile Ward 23 May 2023
In reply to Stuart Wood:

'Keyboard warriors.' Grow up and think for yourself rather than spout clichés.

'Keyboard warriors' (before the term was ever invented) are why we still have trad. I'm not that convinced about the need for sport in the UK, but I have to live with it; but painting route names at the bottom isn't 'the thin end of the wedge', it's the wedge being hammered in just that bit further.

9
 Stuart Wood 23 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

What a hero! I love a scrubber x

36
 Stuart Wood 23 May 2023
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

If you did a bit of sport climbing you could have improved your trad grade 

54
OP loundsy 23 May 2023
In reply to Stuart Wood:

Cheers. Don’t worry I’ll clean it good n proper. Being a hero no, just doing what should be done. Have you read the arguments or seen the pictures? 

3
 Stuart Wood 23 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

What a guy xxx

47
OP loundsy 23 May 2023
In reply to Stuart Wood:

I do my best thanks xxx

 kevin stephens 23 May 2023
In reply to Stuart Wood:

> If you did a bit of sport climbing you could have improved your trad grade 

You’re doing a good job of being a keyboard warrior yourself there Stuart!

A lot of us are keen trad and sport climbers but against writing route names on UK crags. We have good guide books with recent web updates so there is no need.

your argument seems to be that Nick’s a good bloke who benefits climbing in other ways so he should be allowed to do it. It would be easy to see climbers having double standards fighting “graffiti “ on other crags. There is also a real risk to access on some crags if this practice were allowed to spread.

 Rob Exile Ward 23 May 2023
In reply to Stuart Wood:

You're right, I wish it had been invented when I was climbing seriously. But, I'm still 'on the bike' - and you?

 ianstevens 24 May 2023
In reply to pasbury:

> I'm not insane for being aware of the human modification to our landscape and climbs, which extends from graffitied urban quarries (actually made by humans) to ocean blasted sea cliffs (as natural as can be).

> Today I'm going to write a name in sharpie under a sport climb.

> Tomorrow I'm going to paint 'Cenotaph Corner' on the Cromlech - I'll use red.

> Then I'm going to spray paint 'Nelson's Column' on that big phallic thing in Trafalgar Square and whilst I'm at it I'll pop into the national portrait gallery and write the names of the some of the people depicted on those paintings to save people looking them up on the label.

What a load of garbage. 

> Maybe I'm engaging in whataboutery

Yes, you are/ sport climbs =/= trad climbs =/= architecture. As for your art example... they already have labels underneath. I appreciate you are being facetious here, but you've even managed to undermine your own (badly made) point here that adding labels to sport climbs is the thin end of the wedge. It's not, otherwise every crag in the UK would be covered in bolts already.

but all my examples are me doing the SAME THING.

Yeah, they're not.

6
 Lankyman 24 May 2023
In reply to Stuart Wood:

> Nick W is the most inspiring motivated climber I have ever had the privilege to share a rope with.

Are you still in contact with Nick? If he hasn't seen this thread and the response (largely against painting on the rock it would appear) then it might be useful. There's a lot of heat generated by his unilateral action. Or is it unilateral? For all I know there could be a large local 'bubble' that he's operating within who are all for it but not engaged on UKC. I don't know Nick - have only corresponded by email/phone when the FRCC guide was in preparation - but he seemed like a reasonable/regular bloke.

 JakeA 24 May 2023
In reply to Wicamoi:

I can see both sides of the name-writing debate. But ascribing utilitarianism to Kant is something I will not abide! 

1
 pasbury 24 May 2023
In reply to ianstevens:

> What a load of garbage. 

Thankyou very much.

> Yes, you are/ sport climbs =/= trad climbs =/= architecture. As for your art example... they already have labels underneath. I appreciate you are being facetious here, but you've even managed to undermine your own (badly made) point here that adding labels to sport climbs is the thin end of the wedge. It's not, otherwise every crag in the UK would be covered in bolts already.

> but all my examples are me doing the SAME THING.

> Yeah, they're not.

There is one way that sport climbs, trad climbs, Nelson's Column and a portrait in a public gallery are the same: you or I don't own them. They are, in various ways part of our common wealth. Therefore when an individual vandalizes any of them they are taking something away from everybody else.

As wicamoi said above, the argument comparing painting/writing on crags to bolts is like saying 'We've done one selfish thing, so we may as well do another.'

I'm the sort of old bugger who knocks down unnecessary cairns. I don't like people citing convenience or progress as an excuse for littering the countryside with rubbish. People being too lazy or stupid to use a guidebook is no excuse for graffiti.

3
 pasbury 24 May 2023
In reply to Stuart Wood:

> Nick W is the most inspiring motivated climber I have ever had the privilege to share a rope with.

Sounds like he's the one feeling privileged.

3
In reply to Darkinbad:

My 6 year old grandson can find a hidden geocache in a 3x3m square using his phone and a simple description. 

Apparently some of us can't find a line of shiny bolts running up bare arsed crag! 

Makes me wonder if some climbers should really be allowed outside at all 🤣. 

10
 StevieH 25 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Well I must admit I’ve not seen the pictures however…

A - I hope Nick has good handwriting skills.

And

B - The grade of the route is also there then no need to carry a guidebook all that way.

8
 Dave Garnett 26 May 2023
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Ah right, thanks. I've been wondering about ownership.

> It would be nice to confirm whether or not they have been asked.

About the bolting?

2
 duncan 26 May 2023
In reply to Neil Foster,

You're right Neil, it was completely unnecessary, playing the man not the ball. Apologies to Nick if necessary, hopefully he's ignoring this thread. Thankfully the mods. have deleted it. 

 Rob Parsons 26 May 2023
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> About the bolting?

About everything involved with the climbing use being made of the crag.

In reply to loundsy:

I walk up scout scar at least once a week, will be scrubbing those names off each time

6
 Philb1950 26 May 2023
In reply to climberclimber321:

So it’s OK to access a crag, place lower offs, remove one way or another any loose rock and vegetation, which falls to the ground and then drill holes and install bolts, which will then only facilitate increased visits to the areas and even more pressure on potentially fragile eco systems; but it’s not OK to write on said cliff with a felt tip pen. Explain that to Joe Public and they’d think you’re mad. Rank hypocrisy and truly pathetic. And this damage is repeated nationally on thousands of routes and hundreds of crags. I’m not at all against sport climbing, I like it, but let’s get this into perspective and accept the damage done by a sometimes selfish pursuit and not create useless and pointless minutiae. A felt tip pen cannot create permanent damage, but bolts can.

40
 Brass Nipples 26 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Maybe fix stemples and fix cables and turn it into a Via Ferrata? Much more accessible.

2
 kevin stephens 26 May 2023
In reply to Philb1950: It’s a matter of the wedge getting thicker init…

4
 Jon Read 26 May 2023
In reply to Philb1950:

Could you explain to Joe Public that climbers writing on the rock was ok, but tagging/chipped poetry/ad hoc plaques/graffiti isn't?

Where's your line in the sand?  

 John Gresty 26 May 2023
In reply to loundsy:

A few years ago on asking a team what they had done on Stanage, they gave me a number and colour, meant absolutely nothing to me, but to them the name seemed irrelevant.

I'm very old school always believed that the name of a route was interesting and that was how I referred to the climb,  but maybe in this era of Topo  guides route names have less importance. Writing the name on the base of the climb might just help imprint it in peoples memory.

John

21
 jezb1 26 May 2023
In reply to kevin stephens:

> It’s a matter of the wedge getting thicker init…

How so? What would you envisage happening next?

 Philb1950 26 May 2023
In reply to Jon Read:

Joe Public wouldn’t differentiate 

7
 kevin stephens 26 May 2023
In reply to jezb1:

> How so? What would you envisage happening next?

graffiti “artists”, art installationists……

Imagine the confusion if somebody decided to name a route “Kilroy woz here”

Post edited at 20:52
 simondgee 26 May 2023
In reply to jezb1:

A bit of a Clarion Call question there?
These things have gone both ways e.g. chipping  and chalk,  
Genuinely though...did this actually get any airing with anyone to gain local consensus or BMC Area, FRCC? Otherwise Its a pretty conceited devils advocate approach. I'm pretty sure Nick hasn't scrawled names on for his own benefit...so why think/assume other people need them or want them.
If we are adding things to make life a bit easier and accessible then a couple of dozen additional bolts added to the king lines at Chapel Head or on the Rainbow slab would be handy...and equally justifiable.

 

3
 Matt Clifton 13 Jun 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Coming late to this.  
Just returned from Skye. CW scratched at base of Cioch West. Didn’t look new. Any takers - no doubt an absolute villain but don’t recall any controversy. And don’t think it helped our route finding after 20 or so metres.

Seem to recall Mojo was painted at bottom of Craig y Forwen too) or poss Freedom. Again any high horses on that one?

So I don’t think the marking of routes is exclusively a sport climbing issue.  Bit like bolted belays/ ab points - just allow us to do more climbing and less faffing/ bumbling around in a day

As a compromise, just the grade (and an arrow if a couple of routes shared the same starts) would be both more useful information and less intrusive than the names. 
 

26
 Sam Beaton 13 Jun 2023
In reply to Matt Clifton:

> Coming late to this.  

> just the grade 

Great. Let's start with 3PS

 ExiledScot 13 Jun 2023
In reply to Matt Clifton:

CW was scratched in before UKC even existed. 

 Temp account 13 Jun 2023
In reply to kevin stephens:

> Imagine the confusion if somebody decided to name a route “Kilroy woz here”

Scott is bent.

Post edited at 23:11
In reply to Matt Clifton:

The examples you've outlined counter the point you're trying to make, because it goes to show that despite there being a precedent - with plenty of examples scratched into the rock in yesteryear - they've never become widespread. Why? Because they've largely been considered an unnecessary (and unacceptable) eyesore by the climbing community. 

Citing one or two bad examples from the past isn't proof that it's acceptable today...

1
 pasbury 14 Jun 2023
In reply to Matt Clifton:

Yes and Tryfan has FPR scratched at the bottom of Pinnacle Rib and GA for Grooved Arete, probably dating from 100 years ago. There may or may not have been stern words exchanged at Helyg but either way the scratching of route names stopped.

In reply to pasbury:

> Yes and Tryfan has FPR scratched at the bottom of Pinnacle Rib and GA for Grooved Arete, probably dating from 100 years ago. There may or may not have been stern words exchanged at Helyg but either way the scratching of route names stopped.

Funnily enough, it's that exact one I was thinking of - it's an absolute eyesore isn't it?!

 Philb1950 14 Jun 2023
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

I’m not condoning it, but GA is an eyesore because you want it to be. Most non climbers walking along heather terrace have probably never even noticed it. I was up there a few weeks ago for a days scrambling and intended doing GA, but was having a bit of trouble locating it. Two people gearing up pointed out GA on the rock which was then very obvious. In the main though I agree, scratching on the rock is defacing it

4
 Adam Lincoln 14 Jun 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Personally I quite like the idea of names of routes on the rock, but totally get that it's not to most peoples taste and viewed as vandalism. 

8
 ledburyjosh 24 Jun 2023

I'm up for route names on sports crags.

The very clean patch of rock now left from cleaning the writing off now looks more out of place than it did with the name on (For Ivy league atleast).

38
 LakesWinter 25 Jun 2023
In reply to ledburyjosh:

It will quickly weather over in a way a painted name would not.

 ledburyjosh 25 Jun 2023
In reply to LakesWinter:

It will with time yeah. Nonetheless I'm up for names at the base of sport routes

35
 Lankyman 25 Jun 2023
In reply to ledburyjosh:

> I'm up for route names on sports crags.

> The very clean patch of rock now left from cleaning the writing off now looks more out of place than it did with the name on (For Ivy league atleast).

How on earth did you manage to find the route? Or even know you were on Ivy League?

1
 Offwidth 25 Jun 2023
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

One of the FPRs is at the bottom of the wrong route!

 Offwidth 25 Jun 2023
In reply to Philb1950:

>I was up there a few weeks ago for a days scrambling and intended doing GA, but was having a bit of trouble locating it.

That just doesn't ring true: such an apparent combination of snide elitism and lazy navigation is why Rum Doodle was written. Either you didn’t bother reading where the route started or you were 'winging it', seeking a 'tick' (you're able to 'scramble' almost anywhere on that part of the east face).

8
 StevieH 25 Jun 2023
In reply to Lankyman:

He went with a friend who had been on a reconnaissance expedition previously.

1
 Rupert Woods 25 Jun 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Scout Scar is within the Lakes National Park and I think a SSI (special fauna and flora presumably due to the rock type). Writing on it seems to be a senseless shortcut to a ban on climbing. 

3
 wbo2 25 Jun 2023
In reply to Rupert Woods:  Compared to cleaning and bolting? Ummm.... you might not want to raise that discussion

6
 ledburyjosh 25 Jun 2023
In reply to Lankyman:

It's quite easy to find. Just look out for the route with a very clean patch of rock beneath...

6
 UKB Shark 25 Jun 2023
In reply to loundsy:

Bizarre. Painting route names lasted 5 mins in the 80’s at Malham. You can still just make out ‘Bongo Fury”. The names are going to get scrubbed out at crags anyone really cares about. He’s going to get serious pushback if the regulars are there and he turns up at the Tor with his marker pen. 🤣

2
 Philb1950 26 Jun 2023
In reply to Offwidth:

At nearly 73 y.o. and with some mobility and health issues I assure you I am no longer able to scramble anywhere on the E face of Tryfan and this aspect of climbing opens up new possibilities and discoveries previously ignored. I just love being out in the mountains and have been working my way through the classic Welsh scrambles, which I can do alone and it has been an ongoing and fantastic experience. Recently I reconnected with an old friend who started me climbing well over fifty years ago and we had one of our best mountain days ever, starting at the slabs and connecting scrambles all the way to the top of Glyder Fawr. I find the topography of Tryfan E face confusing, so I genuinely couldn’t find the start of GA using a smartphone screenshot as guidance and obviously I wasn’t seeking a tick, but to experience what the guide describes as one of the best easy climbs in the UK. So to my mind yours is the cheap shot and snide remark, so in future don’t criticise unless you are in possession of all the facts.

11
 Offwidth 26 Jun 2023
In reply to Philb1950:

I know what your condition is, which makes it all the more sad you'ld describe GA as a scramble (there are quite a few listed scrambles on the east face and more unlisted ones for explorers). You were lucky enough to climb at elite levels at your best.... for some, GA is close to the pinnacle of their climbing in the best of their health. Using the guidebook to navigate to (and off) climbs safely is part of the game for the 'army' of VDiff leaders out there, as is respect for the genuine challenge of the climb for them.

If the guide describes GA as an easy climb it's guilty of elitism as well, but I've not seen that on any online guidebook.

Rockfax/UKC describe the route as  "One of the best and most popular routes of its grade in the UK" and grade it HVD 4a.

Post edited at 10:39
5
 Philb1950 26 Jun 2023
In reply to Offwidth:

FFS what is it with you? You launch an unprovoked attack on me, despite my recent and worsening climbing travails which has forced me to modify my ongoing climbing aspirations for something which has nothing to do with elitism, but in fact the post was about defacement of rock. What is more worrying to though me is that you seem to think you have a mandate for interpreting what is derogatory and belittling to thousands of people you have never met. You personally have the right to be delusionaly offended but don’t assume that can be extended to the climbing population as a whole. It’s clearly a matter of semantics, such that should I have said I soloed GA that would have been OK? You must be aware that all the scrambling guides incorporate sections that have a climbing grade. Are the people who have led  Cneifion Arête roped up now supposed to walk round chanting “I’m offended” because hundreds of elitists have claimed to have scrambled up it? Truly pathetic. If by some unlikely chance I have offended anyone I unreservedly apologise as I never set out to upset normal socially attuned people. This is definitely my last comment on the subject.

3
 Offwidth 26 Jun 2023
In reply to Philb1950:

Yes "soloed GA" is fine. Your situation, irrespective of travails, still enables you to solo something most younger healthy GA ascentionists wouldn't dream of. However, most of those wouldn't appreciate the implication that scratched initials is anything other than vandalism (especially with the improved location information in modern guidebooks).

5

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