UKH

It looks like some of of are going to be heading out again at some point, some sooner than others no doubt. Regardless of whether this is currently a wise decision (as is being discussed at length in several other posts), I thought I'd start a post which focuses on surface contact and give people a chance to share thoughts and ideas on how we may be able to manage risks in that area.

AFAIK Regardless of what many of us desperately want to believe, we still don't really know how long the virus can survive on many surfaces, including our various rock types. We have been told that hard non porous surfaces can stay risky for 72+ hours. From the miniscule scale of a virus, even rough rock like grit is surely just a whole bunch of hard shiny surfaces on a microscopic level. We know that UV from the sun can destroy some viruses but we don't really seem to know how long this takes or how effective it is. Given that many of our holds are shielded from the sun anyway (in cracks, pockets, undercuts, under bulges and overhangs etc) we'd be kidding ourselves if we thought it was 100% crag sterilization.

I know we can sanitize hands between routes etc but while on a route with all our focus on climbing/protection, are we capable of reminding ourselves not to touch our faces when this is so second nature? Not uncommon to see folks oblivious to their chalk smeared faces down the wall right?(Sure we're the same when distracted by other things like driving) Face masks as a reminder not to?

Many folks will want to simply avoid routes/problems that haven't been recently climbed by others. So then how long do we wait and how can we tell?

A few ideas to just throw out there:

• I guess the presence of chalk could be a rough indicator, especially initially when most of the rock will be clean.
• Could we all religiously keep out logbooks up to date? (Once opened again) Could we go as far as logging them using our phones as we do them on the crag?
• Less techy, Little pegged down signs with a "climb by date"?

Just brainstorming so please keep it friendly and relevant, as all the trolling and tangents can be tiresome. Cheers 

Does anyone know if the viral inactivation on surfaces assumptions are based mainly on   https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?query=featured_home.   ?Published in April.

This specifically mentions a few surfaces: I think cardboard (virus inactivated by 24hrs), plastic stainless steel (both inactivate by 72hrs, doesn't seem to need longer) and copper (rapid inactivation). Is the interpretation of all non-porous surfaces being similar to plastic and metal, and porous surfaces being similar to cardboard, proven or a reasonable assumption?

Edit: If worried then light visor on helmet might be better than a mask, as it would stop one touching the eyes as well. A pain though.  On second thoughts clear glasses/goggles + mask probably better.

Good questions. I've not managed to find anything more reliable in terms of source material so honestly don't know what is or isn't a reasonable assumption. I do know there are a lot of wishful assumptions flying around.

I walked past a local bouldering venue on one of my permitted exercise walks and it was well chalked up about 4 or 5 weeks into lockdown. Whether people had been 'sneaking in' bouldering sessions I don't know but it hadn't rained for weeks and still hasn't much so it may have been there for weeks.

Chalk may not be a very useful as a guide to when a route was last climbed unless it rained within the last 3 days in which case it's probably fair to assume it was climbed since then.

Using UKC logbooks isn't very helpful either. Clearly a recently logged ascent tells you a route has been climbed but the absence of one cannot be relied upon as eveidence it hasn't. Not everyone uses the logbooks, not everyone even uses UKC and not everyone has a smartphone to instantly update them.

People are just going to have to use their best guess and decide what level of risk they are prepared to take, do their best to avoid facial touching and carry (and use) hand sanitiser, ideally before  climbing a route as well as after.

For the really adventurous there's any number of routes out there that haven't been climbed in years, probably quite a few whole crags even! If you have to garden a route before you can climb it then it's safe to bet it won't have the virus on it

I'm going to be using liquid chalk. Will essentially mean I'm sanitizing my hands every 15 minutes or so. 

I think as we get fewer infections in the general population, the likelihood that a climber is infected and then the likelihood that they climbed a route in the last 72hours, and then touched a hold with fingers that had virus on it and then you come along, touch that hold and put your fingers in your face becomes smaller and smaller. 
 

If in doubt maybe a chalkbag type arrangement with some kind of cleaning agent so you could dip your fingers in every now and then. 

Yeah, good points about the chalk, especially true on steep boulders I guess. Also true about ukc logbook use. We surely must be at the stage where the vast majority of folks now with the means to climb also have smartphones though. We've adopted many more inconvenient measures than keeping a logbook over the last few weeks in the name of safety. We've also shown a lot of solidarity...

I guess any system is only as good as peoples willingness to use it right?

Surely the time is ripe for an uncovering of esoterica of the like that has never been seen before? Rather than piss about with smartphone bollocks - just delve into history and revel in solitude?

I'm sure most climbers do have smartphones now but I suspect a lot of climbers rarely or never use UKC and certainly not the logbooks. There's also the issue of phone reception at crags.

I think hand sanitising before and after climbs would be a good message to hammer.

I asked this question about a month ago, and it was just completely ignored. For some reason climbing walls in America were taking it very seriously and scrubbing/cleaning all their holds every night, but no one seemed to be worried about the virus on rock. One quite scientific American paper I read suggested it would be similar to any very hard surface like plastic, and that the virus could survive on it for as long as three to four days. As I said before, holds on popular boulders were extremely unhygenic at the best of times ...

"I think hand sanitising before and after climbs would be a good message to hammer."

Yup, this would be the best advice to give during this pandemic.

Yeah, fully agree that sanitiser before/after each climb should be standard minimum precaution. Start and end of day or when you get home doesn't seem enough. 

I guess this stuff is all going to need to be considered by the walls down the line when they are eventually allowed to open again

What is the percentage alcohol in liquid chalk?

I think apart from hands, which is already mentioned, not going if you are coughing or sneezing is probably the main thing.  

Then use those sanitised hands to bring the rope to your mouth for the next clip, just like your climbing partner did 10 minutes ago. The rope and gear are far greater risks than the rock but are being ignored in the rush to justify dubious actions. 

What's it like trying to get hold of hand sanitiser now? I would have thought it would still be pretty hard to get hold of, especially as more and more businesses try to restart.

A fairly rough study followed by an email to the manufacturer on ukb confirmed that it was approx 70% ethanol for one particular brand.

Some brands are different - there are a few that contain no alcohol at all. So you need to check.

I'm not sure why the guy above got dislikes form this. More evidence would be needed for its efficacy but at 70% alcohol I understand it is likely to have some effect and therefore using liquid chalk instead of normal- especially if bouldering when you can easily do so between every attempt- seems like a very good additional precaution to take.

I'm really sceptical of the idea of using standard sanitizer after every problem or route. I think my skin would be falling off after an hour, and I generally can't find it to buy anyway. Has anyone got a brand they think would work well to sanitize your skin from the virus without softening it too much, and which shops have in stock?

Or, you know, don't do that. Also an option.

They are already looking at what is necessary and sending out surveys. Probable changes at our local wall seem to include booking a 2-hour timeslot so they can limit numbers, better hygiene possibly including sanitizer, and closing most of the additional services like cafes because there isn't the ability to social distance in the kitchen. I'm sure this will vary a lot between Walla. They need to work it out now because it will impact their business model a lot.

I disliked it because the assumption that liquid chalk would work as sanitiser seemed rather speculative to me. As you say yourself, some of it doesn't even contain any alcohol.

But if the guy has decided to use liquid chalk as a measure against the virus (as have I) then I think it's a fairly safe assumption he has checked his brand is alcohol-based.

I was disappointed in the dislikes because I think it has potential to make a huge difference, second only to distancing and to not going out when I'll. I can't envisage standard sanitizer a being widely used so something we will use anyway with a sanitizing effect is gold dust.

So many people are now making it that it's not that hard now.  Probably still hard at supermarkets, but 5 minutes with Google will find some.

Then you have more faith in people than I do! And as you say, the concentration is important and seems to vary between brands.

I did actually wonder if this is effective. It's basically alcohol and chalk right? I mean I'm not suggesting it's a solution to a global pandemic but probably better than normal chalk. Makes less mess as well. 

Good Luck with that, breaking such an engrained behaviour won't be easy.

The rope and the gear are the most handled during the course of the climbing day, often by mouth (of course, never by you, you have special talents). 

And here we are worrying about the rock. 

It performs better too, imo. Just a bit of a faff to use. 

I have lined my chalk bag to seal it, and in lieu of chalk now use methylated spirits to dip into. The sweat vanishes and my hands are sterile. F**k that post send ciggy though... there's something you only do once.

I'd be more worried about infection risk from a shopping trolley than rock. There were US scientific reports at the end of April that the virus doesn't survive long in direct sunlight, which given what I've seen on that first weekend (with hundreds of people not being at all careful opening gates) if outdoor transmission was a serious risk, the epidemic really would have taken off.

If people want to think seriously about minimising risks they should read articles like this.

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them.

I'd say if you must climb from Wednesday  (some might be happy to just walk for the moment)  try to do so comfortably within your limits (MRT and A&E still won't need the extra work from accidents). When thinking on venues, read what the National Parks, local police, MRT teams and the BMC say. Social distance (don't share belays!). Hand sanitise between routes or sets of routes. Try to avoid touching your face any time you are out of your house and touching potentially infected surfaces after the last sanitation. Think about toilets (high risk even if they are open).

Some people say choose climbing esoterica but I think few will have the knowledge or experience to do that well and the best routes might be more crowded than a big popular place. Try to choose crags on access land and think carefully about crags that are on private land that have had sensitivity and avoid places where its clear climbers are not currently welcome (Stanage OK, Almscliffe potentially problematic, Malham a no-no). If English,  don't go to Scotland or Wales to climb. Don't illegally park, take care in isolated spots and take out car stickers that make it clear you're not local (too many vigilante morons damaging cars out there).

I suspect the window of opportunity to climb from Wednesday might not survive long beyond the coming weekend. The government message is so mixed that people will break the intended behaviour without knowing  or deliberately out of sheer frustration (especially  with the muddled risk logic of it all) and I'd lay strong odds that R will be back above 1 very soon with a new lockdown following quickly.

There doesn't actually appear to be much evidence regarding how long CV can survive outside of the body. All the media seem to refer back to the one study and it's quite clear that this isn't representative of true outdoor conditions with these tests all being undertaken in laboratory conditions and at fixed temperatures.

I did read in one article that they estimated 1 person in China may have caught CV from touching a surface - all the rest via airborne infection.

In outdoor conditions the combination of wind and sun will dry up the vapour droplets and so kill the virus much quicker. Furthermore add in chalk which is a drying agent and I personally would be surprised if it could last more than 30 seconds to a couple of minutes on a chalked hold.

Then in addition you would need to factor in the virus actually getting onto the hold in the first place. This would most likely occur through breathing onto the hold or sneezing on to it.

Then you have to touch that hold as well.

So the combination of the hold getting infected, it remaining alive long enough and someone then touching it and it surviving on that person before ingested in an amount that is going to trigger the virus in the person is unbelievably low. 

If you are happy to move around a city and to venture into shops where possible infected peope are circulating - which is now considered ok in England - then the risk from outdoors is insignificant. 

Let's get back to climbing and stop scaremongering!

Am interested if anyone knows the science of this. Transmission from touching each others gear and the rock is one thing but what about transmission through unseen particles when shouting at each other - eg. leader at top may well be more than 2 metres from second but if shouting advice etc. from above, those particles could be falling directly down. Likewise when huffing and puffing second emerges over the top of the climb (forcibly releasing particles) even if the leader is 2 metres away.

Worth consideration or not worth worrying about? Am interested. 

...but now the crags will have purple blobs all over them instead of white ones!

Definitely a risk (reduced if windy).  The solution is face masks.

Just treat it like a trip to the shops: don't go if you're sick or think you might be, don't lick stuff, try not to touch your face, wash/clean your hands frequently and before eating. Review that as the amount of virus at large and our understanding of it changes.

In climbing you're deliberately undertaking a high risk activity yet here worrying about a small additional risk, personally I'd focus on what is actually likely to hurt you: lack of currency and over enthusiasm.

jk

About the same risk as me shouting at you from my desk here!

An awful lot of wishful thinking here! Methanol is useless at destroying viruses (as is ethanol). Proper alcohol-based sanitisers use ~70% iso-propyl alcohol (pure IPA is not very effective either since it needs water to penetrate deep into the virus structure).

I had a quick look at a number of liquid chalk ingredients and none of them were any practical use as a sanitiser. They mainly had low concentrations (e.g., 30%) of ethanol.

Mmmm... maybe I won't then. 

Surely, all one has to do is climb "no hands" like Johnny Dawes.

Almost certainty not worth worrying about - those droplets are going to dispersed over a wide area very quickly diluting the density to practically nil within metres. These droplets as well will dry out, exposing any virus to oxygen and UV.  Small particles also don't tend to fall, viscous forces dominate over gravitational forces so they will literally be blown away with the wind.

My friend, an osteopath, was told in a virtual meeting with the College of Osteopaths adviser that the virus only lasts 2 hours on any surface. She seems to be reasured by this.

thank you, appreciate the considered reply. 

Climb on Culm.  A new set of holds for each climber.

Are you sure that ethanol is no use? That's very worrying considering that lots of alcoholic drink producers are currently producing ethanol based hand sanitiser. I would hope that they know what they are doing.

I think the possibility of transferring the virus from touching surfaces is minimal, as suggested by research others have quoted. Much more relevant I think is that it is highly likely you could transmit the virus to or from a climbing partner.

Never mind the claims some are making that they can easily stay 2m away all day. The 2m thing is an approximation. Risk depends not just on some randomly defined distance, but length of time and other factors. And if they cough, sneeze - or sing! The fact of the matter is you are constantly handling the same gear as them (the virus is more likely to be transferred given the frequency), breathing the same air and spending a significant amount of time in some kind of close proximity (at the base of a route or at belays) - even if it might happen to be slightly more than 2m.

So I'm not too worried about the touching the surface aspect, but I do think it makes sense to only climb within your own household for now and keep plenty of distance from others. A much greater concern for me than touching the rock is selfish people following up the same route or choosing an adjacent route and belaying next to you, wanting to share belays etc.

I just made some liquid chalk from chalk and hand sanitiser. 

It works quite well, obviously slower to evaporate than commercial as it is propanol based. 

It doubles up as a massage oil for risk assessment confirmation bias. 

What did you look at? 

All the ones I looked at (apart from those advertising themselves as alcohol free) used isopropyl ethanol. None that I saw specified the concentration in the ingredients list but from a test of cheap brand and an email to the manufacturer (as stated above) that one is approx 70%.

That is an interesting read but unlike you, it actually gave me more cause for concern. This bit:

"If a person is infected, the droplets in a single cough or sneeze may contain as many as 200,000,000 (two hundred million) virus particles which can all be dispersed into the environment around them."

The article suggests that an individual needs 1000  virus particles to become infected. Bear in mind it's also hay fever season and that people also sneeze for other reasons, chalk...?. Add to that, the fact that a climber isn't likely to shield their mouth and nose if their hands are unavailable. Also consider that in the normal horizontal world a sneeze would spread a long way before settling on the ground, but on our verticle cliff we would essentially concentrate that load into a small area of the rock (or rope/runners) right in front of our faces. Same goes with coughing and to a lesser extent, breathing, talking and shouting (and oddlings like me who like sing to calm nerves )

Not trying to scare-monger here but with the lack of info and evidence (either way) I think it's wise to consider this from as many angles as possible.

Any chance you or others could post a link to this research? Sorry if I missed it somewhere.

Alright, no more speculation needed fellas. My liquid chalk is alcohol based, although not sure of percentage as couldn't find details. Obviously that's why I mentioned liquid chalk..

This is a good link on understanding transmission risks.

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR...

Oh, just saw someone else posted it above. Doh!

Also, some German chap did some research suggesting the virus is unlikely to be transmitted easily from surfaces. Prof Speck, if I remember correctly.

My uptake is don't worry too much about surfaces, but keep away from other people, epecially for prolonged periods...

Sure you've got the name right? I can't find anything with a quick search. We need all the science we can get right now so if you can recall it or link it would be really helpful.

"Not trying to scare-monger here...", but there you go, scare mongering all over again. 

Actually I'm not. I'm trying to hold open discussion about very real issues, trying to get some scientific facts to help us find our way safely through this and try and filter out the hearsay , and trying to get some sharing of suggestions going to benefit everyone's safety for the coming weeks.

I think it's really important that we consider this stuff before all just go charging off half cocked armed only with what we want to hear and how we choose to interpret vague guidelines.

Why not contribute something constructive instead of like fishing with witty snipes from the sidelines?

The research was carried out in Heinsberg - 'Germany's Wuhan' - by Pr Hendrik Streeck:

https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/death-rate-german-laboratory-city-5x-less...

Do you have any figures to back this up?

Well, consider this: 

https://www.gymclimber.com/can-liquid-chalk-protect-climbers-from-coronavir...

Any sanitising effect of liquid chalk is highly dependent on the ingredients and their ratio (which are usually unknown) and might be even negated by the hygroscopic qualities of liquid chalk (pure alcohol's sanitising properties are said to be much enhanced by mixing it with water, because of slower evaporation thus longer contact times and better germicidal qualities of the mixture due to better penetration - although I'm not sure if the latter applies to enveloped viruses, the first surely does). Without delving deep into the research, I wouldn't just attribute it "gold dust" qualities on an internet forum, as much as I'd like to. At least standard (~70/30 pure alcohol/water) sanitiser has been tested many times for efficacy as a sanitiser with enveloped viruses. Sure, it might be better than nothing (anything which lowers the transmission rate even slightly helps a lot when enough people do it), but I wouldn't count on liquid chalk being a "silver bullet" solution.

How long do it take to get rid of any virus you've picked up?

Thanks for the link! If Prof Streeck's work is reliable then that would be enormously reassuring for so many of us, not just in climbing. There does seem to be some dispute in the comments below the article quite strongly questioning the lack of data or peer reviewed publishing. I very much hope these findings are true. Some more concrete research to back it up would be great though.

Yes, as there seem to be a few similar suggestions, I'm hopeful, but it's certainly early days for the research at the moment, so far from conclusive.

Find a quiet crag / are and climb different routes if climbing with a non-household partner (strip gear when lowering off on by abseiling).

I wouldn’t worry too much about whether anyone had climbed the route on the previous day as in the outdoors you’d think the virus wouldn’t survive that long. I know there’s not much evidence around this but to me it just feels like that’s an acceptable risk. (Appreciate this sounds like something Trump would say) If someone else has just climbed it, obviously the risk would be higher and I’d opt for another route.

I think in climbing as in other areas of life we will need to adjust our usual social norms. So I think it would be acceptable to ask others to stay a few metres away and not climb a certain route (even if you aren’t climbing it at the time), if you are there first. Obviously not saying people can hog a whole crag, just a small area. Also hogging a particular route all day would be ok and in fact not a bad idea (eg projecting a sport route).