Roaches Parking - fines

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 Prof. Outdoors 22 Apr 2019

Roaches Easter

Beware - Fixed penalty notices were being issued over Easter for all cars out of defined parking bays. This seems to be common at the moment so be aware if you want to avoid an FPN. Irritatingly public transport alternatives seem non-existent.

Seems parking was a major at the weekend over in Snowdonia and maybe we should put more pressure to improve public transport. Park and ride schemes would get my custom.

Lower Tier was quiet regarding climbers and I also enjoyed playing around at Windgather yesterday. Good atmoshphere. Must have all been in Snowdonia.

Post edited at 19:55
 olddirtydoggy 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Prof. Outdoors:

The tickets were all over the windscreens around Ladybower resovoir also this weekend. Tickets went on all cars on the verges even though there are no signs and no issues caused to traffic. I thought it was somewhat poor practice on this occasion.

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 Tom Valentine 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Prof. Outdoors:

Must have all been in Snowdonia.

Not today, it wasn't. Inconsiderate parking at Greenfield was rife, with cars parked on the main road forcing uphill traffic to cross the central solid white line for hundreds of yards continuously. I'm surprised to read that this doesn't seem to be an infringement of the Highway code.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

> The tickets were all over the windscreens around Ladybower resovoir also this weekend. Tickets went on all cars on the verges even though there are no signs and no issues caused to traffic. I thought it was somewhat poor practice on this occasion.

Depends where you mean, was it near Fairholmes? The route into Upper Derwent (if memory serves) is a clearway, so no stopping. Then nearer the visitor centre it ends but the restriction is no parking unless in a car park. 

Post edited at 21:39
 MG 22 Apr 2019
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

That's not true.  The parking around Ladybower was chaotic and caused danger - reduced lines of sight, narrowing the road etc.

88Dan 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Prof. Outdoors:

I have no sympathy for these people. I manage to park at every crag I climb at, my car is left in a marked bay whenever possible/whenever required and I always make sure I am not blocking any part of the road or stopping anyone else from getting in or out of parking spaces. I have never got a ticket and neither have any of my friends/partners. if people can't put their car between two white lines, or between a grass verge and a white line then they deserve every ticket they get.

29
 john arran 22 Apr 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

Hooray for deliberately provocative posts  that make the internet a less pleasant place to visit!

7
 scoobydougan 22 Apr 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

What do you want? A Big Hat? 

4
 lancsmike 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Prof. Outdoors:

Hi    I have mentioned parking difficulties going back some years now, BMC and authorities should discuss openly, this situation is unclear in many parts of the country particularly as was in Derbyshire some 15 years or so back. Used to be difficult then to park near small spaces off road around Burbage South Brook. Back then I recall anyone around the area got FPN's  whether off road, away from white lines or whatever. It made you distrust parking anywhere even around spaces well known at Burbage North and this was in areas used to regular correct parking where there were no signs forbidding parking. It all became too much , the whole thing needs clarification!  ps  I have never returned to that area since..

 Offwidth 23 Apr 2019
In reply to john arran:

I almost agree with dan (I have some sympathy but they deserve the tickets.... its clearly marked to only park in marked bays). I don't think its at all fair to accuse dan of being provocative in way that makes the internet a place less worth visiting.... your post is arguably worse in that respect. He is raising real issues: we all are responsible for our impact and plenty of parking is there for those who get up early or are prepared to walk a bit further or go somewhere else. Its cheaper to park in the Hen Cloud campsite and pay for a night you don't need than to partly block the road and trash the verge and get a parking fine.

2
 Offwidth 23 Apr 2019
In reply to lancsmike:

It's a road traffic offence to park on the verge where there are double white lines, as such, the BMC would never advise parking near the Burbage South brook bridge nor could anyone negotiate it. The BMC do negotiate legal parking issues all the time.... just come to the Peak area meetings and talk to Henry Folkard if you want details.

Post edited at 09:21
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 Simon Caldwell 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

I suspect a lot of motorists have forgotten rules about where you can and cannot park, possibly because most such places are reinforced with double yellow lines or "no parking" signs. I wonder how many drivers would know what a "clearway" sign meant.

Another that gets many people is near Ogwen Cottage, people get tickets for parking on the pavement opposite, where parking has been tolerated for decades. I used to park there myself, never realising it was technically illegal -  the "pavements" in question lead from nowhere to nowhere, and anyone wanting to walk along the road will use the more continuous pavement opposite. Feels very much like a money-making exercise.

1
 Martin W 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Inconsiderate parking at Greenfield was rife, with cars parked on the main road forcing uphill traffic to cross the central solid white line for hundreds of yards continuously. I'm surprised to read that this doesn't seem to be an infringement of the Highway code.

If it's a double white line, even if the line on your side of the road is broken, then it's against the law to park there.  See Highway Code Rule 240:

You MUST NOT stop or park on:

...

a road marked with double white lines, even when a broken white line is on your side of the road, except to pick up or set down passengers, or to load or unload goods

Reference: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/waiting-and-parking-238-to-252

MUST NOT means that there is a law that says you mustn't do it.  I'm not sure which of the fourteen (!) laws and regulations referenced below Rule 240 is the one which applies in this particular case.

(I wasn't completely sure from your post whether there were two white lines, or just one.  I assumed two, because a single white line down the centre of the road has no legal meaning or force.)

88Dan 23 Apr 2019
In reply to john arran:

What do people expect? the same applies for car parks at supermarkets for example. if you park where you are not supposed to or park inconsiderately then you shouldn't be allowed to complain when you get a parking fine. what sort of person do you have to be to look at a carpark full of cars and think, everyone else has parked like this but sod that I'm going to park as and where I like. that warning sign doesn't apply to me. in which case I refer you to my original post where I said I have no sympathy for these people. climbers walkers ramblers or otherwise.

 john arran 23 Apr 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

It seems you are mistaken in assuming that I was disagreeing with the substance of your post rather than its tone.

1
 Offwidth 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I agree that its mean to ticket people if your car is completely off the road, there is no signage to indicate no parking (which there arguably should be on the inside of a bend on a trunk road) and you are not blocking the pavement. 

Policing the crazy dangerous parking I witnessed on Sunday as a road traffic offence rather than a parking offence would help act as an incentive for people to learn.

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 Steve Wetton 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

A couple of years back we were given a ticket at the roaches. IIRC it’s a clearway from by the cafe at Hen Cloud to right up past the Roaches lay by. We were parked on the grass verge, up towards the Roaches end, a good 5 feet off the road. We appealed, and the argument was put to us that we were blocking pedestrians. Clearly, with a good 5ft of grass between us and the road, we weren’t. I was tempted to go to court over it, but I’m afraid I succumbed to the CBA instinct, paid up, and went climbing.

88Dan 23 Apr 2019
In reply to john arran:

No problem mate.

In reply to Prof. Outdoors:

Some strong viewpoints expressed on this.

The parallel post on Snowdonia parking has also had lots of comments. Snowdonia parking was exceptional at the BH weekend.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/parking_madness_in_snowdonia-703...

The Roaches parking is a year round issue. The designated parking bays at the Roaches do not cater for a huge amount of cars. Most weekends it is quite common for cars to be parked on the verges.

On the Snowdonia parking topic some suggestions have been: park and ride, tourist taxes funding better public transport, enhanced Sherpa buses operating at extended times, co-ordinated with railways.

The Hen Cloud / Roaches is a clearway so this problem will not go away. Excuse my ignorance but does anyone know if the BMC or similar can put pressure on to improve alternatives to actually taking the car in the first place?

 mark s 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Prof. Outdoors:

I went past the roaches over the weekend a couple of times.

the house with the tea room had parking available for 2 pound in the field. all those who got a ticket drove past the sign for parking. 

zero sympathy infact I was laughing at all the tickets. must have been 40 plus cars.

if you got one it was deserved.

I have driven a fire engine up past there on a busy day and it makes it hard work. even more so at roach end where there is no restrictions,just idiots who park anywhere

1
 Duncan Bourne 23 Apr 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

While I don't condone illegal parking I do have some sympathy with these people. The Roaches is a very popular place with both climbers and walkers who come from far and wide. Those who stay in the Whilans hut also use the parking bays. The up shot is unless you arrive before 9.30 am on a weekend it is highly unlikely that you will get a parking space. Thus anyone travelling from further afield (ie more than two hours journey time should aim to leave at the crack of dawn or not bother. It is a long way to drive not to be able to park.

1
 Duncan Bourne 23 Apr 2019
In reply to mark s:

I too saw the cars parked in the field and thought it a good idea and a money spinner for the tea rooms.

Me I just went up early and got a slot in a bay.

Did have one weird woman shout at me for driving too fast (ie 20 mph in a 30 zone, not that you would drive at 30 with all the cars and people about)

In reply to mark s:

Mark

Is this a new thing they are offering?

Presumably you mean the Roaches Tea Rooms underneath Hen Cloud. It is not mentioned on their website. Never saw the sign but I was there early enough and had no trouble parking near the gate to the Roaches.

Would be really useful if the field was available all the time but especially at weekends. Sympathize with driving a fire engine around Roach End.

 Coel Hellier 23 Apr 2019
In reply to mark s:

> even more so at roach end where there is no restrictions,just idiots who park anywhere

It used to be the case that at Roach End one could park on a grassy area just south of the gate, well off the road.    That seemed pretty harmless. Then a couple of years back this was blocked off with boulders, which means that the only parking now is on the verges of a rather narrow road. 

 olddirtydoggy 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

I know where you mean but no, it was just near the Yorkshire bridge pub.

 olddirtydoggy 23 Apr 2019
In reply to MG:

Not on the stretch I'm refering to. The road was quite wide enough and didn't put me at any risk whatsoever when I was driving past the ticketed cars.

In reply to olddirtydoggy

> I know where you mean but no, it was just near the Yorkshire bridge pub.

Quite a bit of that road is a clearway too. Fairly sure I'm right in saying there is a clearway repeater right outside the pub. 

Post edited at 21:55
 olddirtydoggy 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Quite right, there is a clearway sign on the road but exactly from and to could cause confusion for some motorists. I just didn't feel the parking was causing a public safety or access issue. There are some areas I totally get why a car would deserve to get a ticket. Around 30 cars got tickets, thats 30 parties had their bank holiday ruined and for what?

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

> Quite right, there is a clearway sign on the road but exactly from and to could cause confusion for some motorists.

Guess they're not confused now. 

> I just didn't feel the parking was causing a public safety or access issue. There are some areas I totally get why a car would deserve to get a ticket. Around 30 cars got tickets, thats 30 parties had their bank holiday ruined and for what?

I have to travel to and from work through that section and it can at times be almost standstill with the bad parking and people looking for non existent free parking. Hetherdene never seems full so not sure I sympathise. 

 lancsmike 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Thanks for your reply / info.  I do recall being there but some years ago usually had cars there since 80's and there was  single white lines. That's why it was unclear then. Think they've changed layout since. I understand why not good to just park on verges. Think we ended up parking at Burbage north and walking south in end. But thanks 

88Dan 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

In that case there should be more parking spaces available.

 birdie num num 24 Apr 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> In that case there should be more parking spaces available.

I heartily agree.

Me, Mrs Num Num, and the Num Num children never get on in a car journey. Normally because we like different channels on the radio, so we always go in separate cars.

Unless we get to the Roaches early It's always really difficult to park up our fleet

 Offwidth 24 Apr 2019
In reply to lancsmike:

To be fair one of the old guidebooks said to park there. The author clearly wasn't aware of the law on this as he did it again in a different place with double white lines  in another guidebook.

 Offwidth 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Blocking wide and normally dry verges (with safe views for access for oncoming traffic... ie not on blind bends) with boulders is infuriating council behavior in the Peak District national park.  I wouldn't mind so much if they at least put on a useable bus service for climbers as an alternative but they all seem to start too late and end too early.

 Duncan Bourne 24 Apr 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

Actually I learned that there were more on the day (tea rooms rented out a field so no real excuse for parking on the road).

But it does beg the question of how many spaces there should be? Also what peoples expectations should be?

Like I said I do have some sympathy for people who travelled a distance to be there but at the end of the day it is not a theme park so should people anticipate that they will be disappointed?

 Dave Garnett 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Martin W:

> You MUST NOT stop or park on:

> ...

> a road marked with double white lines, even when a broken white line is on your side of the road, except to pick up or set down passengers, or to load or unload goods

Yes, but what does 'on a road' mean?  It does seem unreasonable to ticket people for parking well off the road, as often happens at the Roaches and occasionally at Burbage bridge.

One rather technical argument is that you shouldn't cross a solid white line, so where there is one at the side of the road it's an indication that parking on the verge isn't permitted even where there is no danger of an obstruction.  

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Maybe the signs have changed or been replaced, but there used to be road signs near the first lay-by at tea room to the effect ‘park in designated bays only or get a ticket’. I guess they’ve gone now?

 Martin W 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Yes, but what does 'on a road' mean?  It does seem unreasonable to ticket people for parking well off the road, as often happens at the Roaches and occasionally at Burbage bridge.

In simple terms, "the road" = "the highway", and "the 'ighway extends from 'edge to 'edge".

(Note that this definition of "the road" also means that parking restrictions as indicated by yellow lines - with accompanying signage as required - also apply to the boundary of the highway, including the footway, verge etc.  So the belief apparently held by some drivers that you can't get a ticket from a local authority warden if you park 'outside' the yellow lines is false.)

> One rather technical argument is that you shouldn't cross a solid white line, so where there is one at the side of the road it's an indication that parking on the verge isn't permitted even where there is no danger of an obstruction.

Not relevant, given the definition of "road" above (with extended references below).

"Technically", you cross a solid white line every time you pass you a green traffic light, or proceed beyond a STOP sign at an unsignalled junction.

You may regard it as unreasonable but (a) it is the law, and (b) the verge, as part of the highway, is maintained at public expense but very specifically not for the use or passage of motor vehicles (same as the footway).  If you think it would be reasonable to widen the carriageway by reducing the width of the verge(s) in order to facilitate parking then I'm sure the local authority would be interested to hear your views.

Legally, what is a ‘road’?

According to the Road Traffic Act 1988, s 192(1) a ‘road’ means any highway to which the public has access. It also includes any bridges over which a road passes.

Note the use of the word "highway" - not "carriageway", which is the specific bit of the highway that 'carriages' i.e. wheeled vehicles are supposed to confine themselves to: being a way (other than a cycle track) over which the public have a right of way for the passage of vehicles (Highways Act 1980 s329).

Is the grass verge a ‘road’?

Even if the grass verge is behind a safety barrier it is a road, if it is maintained by the highway authority as part of the public highway

Reference: http://www.jamesmurraylaw.com/motoring-law/what-is-a-road/

Also:

Where there are fences or hedges on either side of the highway, and the presence of these boundary features are referable to the highway, it may be presumed that the highway includes all of the land between the features. See Attorney-General v Beynon ... The “hedge to hedge” presumption is that a highway extends to the whole width of the space between fences on either side of the highway and is not limited to the metalled part of the roadway.

Reference: http://www.titleandcovenant.co.uk/pdfs/NOV2009Newsletter.pdf

Also:

21. In Attorney General v Beynon ... , the verge was of considerable width and irregular in shape. The highway authority claimed that the verge was part of the highway and that the keeping of vehicles there by the defendant was an obstruction of the highway. Goff J said: It is clear that the mere fact that a road runs between fences, which of course include hedges, does not per se give rise to any presumption. It is necessary to decide the preliminary question whether those fences were put up by reference to the highway, that is, to separate the adjoining closes from the highway or for some other reason. When that has been decided then a rebuttable presumption of law arises, supplying any lack of evidence of dedication in fact, or inferred from user, that the public right of passage, and therefore the highway, extends to the whole space between the fences and is not confined to such part as may have been made up. It seems clear to me however as the principle has developed, that one is to decide the preliminary question in the sense that the fences do mark the limit of the highway unless there is something in the condition of the road or the circumstances to the contrary.

Reference: https://www.oss.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/C10-Highway-Verges.pdf

 Dave Garnett 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Martin W:

Thanks for the detailed reply.  I can't fault your logic, but many rural situations still don't really fall within the 'hedge to hedge' definition.  

Anyway, I agree with those suggesting paying the local farmer a couple of quid to park in the field when it's busy.

 smollett 24 Apr 2019

Remedy to ticketing issue where multi-ticketing used:

Collect tickets off all car windscreens, put in a box and send to council responsible. 

you are welcome

1
 Martin W 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Thanks for the detailed reply.  I can't fault your logic, but many rural situations still don't really fall within the 'hedge to hedge' definition.

For clarity: it's not "my" logic, it's simply a combination of legislation & case law as reported by people who are far more qualified than me to offer authoritative opinions on the subject.

Mechanisms exist for trying to get either or both changed, but they're probably more costly in time and/or money than would be worthwhile for an individual to pursue purely in order to avoid a few parking tickets.  Some might suggest that that's what "they" rely on...

> I agree with those suggesting paying the local farmer a couple of quid to park in the field when it's busy.

Indeed, probably a sound plan - assuming a suitably helpful farmer can be identified.

Post edited at 13:42

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