UKH

Is there a responsibility and duty for those profiting/gaining from the increased interest in climbing to educate new climbers? 
Do climbing centres, brands and influencers have a responsibility to educate new comers who will be aiming to climb outside on the correct behaviours (such as not climbing on wet sandstone, correct brushing and chalk usage ect)for these spaces?

If so what should they do?

In reply to lewisrae:

Climbing centres should uphold high standard standards for leading, belaying, and boulderer spotting and provide detailed safety information  for all new climbers registering at their centres. They should offer (for a fee) additional instruction for those looking to advance (e.g. "learn to lead") with qualified instructors. Their floor walkers should provide advice and tips when they see possible safety improvements that will benefit their customers.

...that seems to be what I see happening. Do you have an example of a specific expectation that isn't being met?

Brands should test their products to (and beyond) rigorous safety standards, provide safety information with each product, and be vigilant in identifying defects and recalling products that have safety issues identified. Where they are using sponsored climbers and creating media specifically for product advertising (print, online video, etc), they should insist that safe practices are displayed. Where they are sponsoring entertainment programs that burden lies with the production company, but brands should still take a stance with regards to ensuring unsafe practices are not glorified without at least apprising the viewer of the associated risks. Brands that create safety-specific products should consider creating content specifically about safe and unsafe practices, that can simultaneously be used to demonstrate the efficacy of their products...

...that seems to be what I see happening. Do you have an example of a specific expectation that isn't being met?

Influencers should... Wait... What are influencers?

In reply to lewisrae:

In a word: yes. In fact, we all have a responsibility, both for educating ourselves and educating others. That is what community means: the creation of a shared identity and shared values, e.g. leave no trace.

I would say climbing walls should be proactive not only in relation to good practice in belaying/leading, but also inclusivity and the ethics of open spaces. This doesn't have to be onerous: a simple poster saying "climbing is for everyone" or "leave no trace" can have an impact.

At an individual level, that time you pick up someone else's rubbish in front of your friend or gently and constructively challenge sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. can have an important and lasting impact.

That's not to say we need to become censorious; merely, that collective values are best when they are organically cultivated by communities and we shouldn't wait or expect some authority figure to enforce them.

In reply to morpcat:

What you’ve talked about there is basically minimum legal requirements to operate being met. 
The question was should people gaining from promoting a sport/activity largely taking place outdoors educate new comers on correct behaviour and the reasoning behind it. 
By correct behaviour I mean behaviour that respects and minimises our impact in these areas, respecting access issues like nesting birds, climbing wet sandstone, sticking to paths in ecologically sensitive areas, not chipping holds. 

For many new climbers none of this is known and sometimes not understood when shared so not respected 

In reply to lewisrae:

7 of my 11 suggestions have no legal obligation. Despite this, those type of responsible behaviours still happen because [a] it's the right thing to do and [b] doing the right thing is also good for those businesses.

Whilst I totally agree in principle that for-profit businesses in the climbing industry (and indeed other industries) have a responsibility to share good knowledge with their customers, I'm having a hard time understanding what your expectations are, or where you've found them to be deficient.

The particular issues you've called out are probably better suited for organisations such as the BMC to champion (which indeed they do).

Edit: following up with some examples that demonstrate where companies  *are* showing responsibility (and there are hundreds more):

youtube.com/watch?v=hz0v-yEKcMc& - well-known brand creating instructional video on safe practices 

https://dmmwales.com/knowledge - well-known  brand creating an extensive library of safety information and other educational articles 

youtube.com/watch?v=90F5-4WO1No& - sponsored climber and for-profit media company creating instructional video on safe practices

https://www.needlesports.com/ - well-known shop creating a useful learning resource (see Useful Information in the menu)

https://youtube.com/c/teamBMCTV - to my point about the BMC being the right organisation to tackle the issues you mentioned, you'll find plenty of coverage of those in this channel.

In reply to morpcat:

Are the BMC the best suited for that? Is someone who spends a few months at a wall and then buys a pad likely to spend too much time digging through BMC literature?

My expectations are that those profiting from promoting the activity do what they can to maintain the areas where it takes place. The deficit is in education for new climbers and the increase of the issues mentioned above amongst others occurring because of this.

 

In reply to morpcat:

I’m not talking about safe practice and never at any point said anything to indicate I was. I’m talking about respecting the outdoors and think thats fairly clear. Thanks for continuing to beat the same old drum though

In reply to lewisrae:

Pops up on my YouTube feed all the time. Not hard to find. Also, it's literally their remit.

A bit like Montane publishing articles on responsible bouldering practice, Arcteryx donating profits to the Conservation Alliance, or DMM sponsoring Women's Trad Fest, or Alpkit raising over £500K for various projects including outdoor participation and education.

These and many more examples are out there for those that go looking. Personally, I'd rather celebrate the wins and generate optimism than throw vague criticisms at nobody in particular.

In reply to morpcat:

Pretty much everything you’ve mentioned is great but mostly for people already into it a bit. I’m talking about straight from the wall people. People who’s YouTube algorithms won’t be skewed by hours viewing climbing content. 
Interesting you view it as vague criticisms when my original post was asking people’s opinions on if they felt enough was done and if so what more could be. I obviously have my own opinion on this but was interested in hearing the opinions of the wider community. Thank you for repeatedly sharing yours

In reply to morpcat:

Also you say “out there for those who go looking”.

This assumes everyone to be looking

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:

It's not at all the same... and a bizarre comparison.

Climbing wall owners and staff are within our community and care about the environments we share. It's not their *obligation*, but they share as much responsibility for creating the world we want to see as anyone.

Shell or McDonald's are part of death-cult capitalism and they actually do try to engage with discourse around environmental crises - without meaningfully changing their practices or modus operandi. This is commonly called "greenwashing" - a very old and familiar concept, surely, if you weren't being obtuse.

In reply to lewisrae:  The whole industry and climbing community have a responsibility to do this - fobbing it off onto climbing walls , many of whose customers aren't going to be going outdoors bouldering as an example, strikes me as a cop out.

Where climbing walls can have a larger impact is around safe belaying and climbing of sport routes on top rope and lead.  Other stuff is optional, and remember, varies locally.

In reply to C Witter:

Such an excellent sentiment, imho, that it was worth quoting in case it gets missed up thread. Spot on.

In reply to wbo2:

I work full time as a climbing instructor. I think on the whole most instructors taking a session outdoors will include an element of education about using the outdoors in their session, whether it's etiquette regarding other crag users or some as simple as keeping the crag tidy by picking up litter Usually this is informal and when a behaviour crops up that needs education.

There is however a large group who access the outdoors from having started indoors with no instruction, mentoring or guidance. This is great, but sometimes leads to gaps in knowledge/culture/care/understanding for how to use the outdoors. The responsibility for guiding these crag users in my opinion lies with all experienced climbers, whether working in the industry or not.

What I will add is that some of the worst crag behaviour I have seen this year was by experienced older climber. 

In reply to lewisrae:

As a community, as alluded to by C Witter, we have a collective responsibility.

We can all do our bit. I remember turning up a the crag to find a group of boulderers from my local wall, stereo on, stuff strewn everywhere. I had a chat to them about etiquette in the outdoors and they are now all "champions of exemplary behaviour". They had been attempting to recreate the wall environment outside so I would say there is a role there for walls.

As the NRB, the BMC is "creating content" about "correct behaviours" and is trying multiple methods to get it out into the wider climbing world. Amplification of that content by walls, brands and climbing media personalities would very much help their cause.

In reply to C Witter:

Crikey youth "death-cult capitalism", and you used the word "bourgeoisie" the other day, you are taking this all far too seriously. I prescribe 2 bottles of wine and a session of talking bollocks with Uncle Derek into the early hours, to sort you out.

In reply to lewisrae:

I think you have raised an important point. IMHO the answer is yes.

    I know that mountain leaders / instructors have environmental education and 'climbing behaviour / etiquette as a part of their training and I often see / hear that being delivered to students / clientele ( although not always ). However, as someone else mentioned many outdoor users do not come from this route but may be self taught after initial sessions at a climbing wall. It is great to see people learning like this as well as the guided / instructor route. The disadvantage, as regular threads on here seem to emphasise, is that there are some individuals / groups who do not share the same environmental / climbing etiquette values as the majority of the climbing community. 

    The BMC and manufacturers do attempt education but obviously this does not reach everybody. Perhaps as a community UKC could come up with some ideas to plug this apparent gap. For example:

- Would it be a good idea if local climbing walls had a display area where some website links were shared plus; photos, access issues, etiquette and environmental issues for their local climbing venues? Could this be supported voluntarily by local climbing clubs? I am aware this costs money and involves work and time. Perhaps we could talk to our local climbing wall managers or even volunteer to help create it...

Can anybody else contribute some ideas?

In reply to lewisrae:

I think we might be getting to the stage, at least for the most popular roadside crags, where we might need to consider having notice boards listing the local ethics and environmental considerations positioned in the carpark (with QR links etc to RAD, further guidance etc.). I guess people might still choose not to read or follow guidance but it might stop more newcomers from falling through the net, so to speak.

In reply to Godwin:

Or maybe you!

In reply to Holdtickler:

I agree, and I don't think the problem is in any way unique to climbers or boulderers.  Lock-down and travel restrictions resulted in a lot of people taking to the countryside who had very little previous experience of it.  A lot of the objectionable (to us) behaviour was the result of thoughtlessness and ignorance.

A lot of it is an urban 'out of sight, out of mind' attitude, and an assumption that just like leaving your McDonalds boxes in the city centre, it's someone else's job to clear it up.  If the only reason you can imagine going into some shrubbery or behind a boulder in what you regard as the middle of nowhere is to have a crap, then it doesn't seem like a big deal.  Who's going to see it?  To people like us, exactly the same places may be favourite climbing spots and are often on private property.  And, what might seem an obscure and inaccessible spot at night, can turn out to be the middle of well-used footpath in daylight. 

Of course, we shouldn't be chucking litter (especially plastics) anywhere other than in a bin (preferably our own at home) and this has been the subject of many pubic information campaigns.  Nevertheless I regularly collect a bin bag full of burger boxes and Red Bull cans from the verge bordering our property, which happens to be on one of the routes out of the Potteries and into the PDNP.  To some people, throwing anything they don't want out of their car window is just a reflex, because, presumably, nobody has ever told them not to (and, I suspect, it's behaviour they learned from their parents).

In reply to Godwin:

It's all been getting far too serious... a catch up would be good at some point.

In reply to C Witter:

Definitely, I will contact you and we shall go climbing.

In reply to morpcat:

How are climbing walls supposed to uphold standards on spotting.  The simple golden rule of spotting at a bouldering wall is " don't do it" if there is a section of bouldering wall where spotting would be beneficial then the wall should be closed forthwith and rebuilt.

Sorry. Bad spotting is one of my pet hates. People standing behind climbers with their hands vaguely outstretched with no actual idea what they are doing and whether they will even touch the climber as they plummet past.

Almost as irritating as the cretinous parents who spot the lower limbs of their kids. Sometimes even grabbing hold of their legs or ankles in a bid to support them or guide them onto a hold.

Mmm, way to get your kid to land on its head you muppet....

In reply to lewisrae:

YouTube has a lot to answer for in my eyes. 

What % of people are learning to climb from instructors and courses now? Who is going to pay £100 for a course when they can watch on youtube for free? 

If wager most people learn off either their mates or the internet now. People are constantly consuming media, so that's the best place to put these messages. 

You could find 100 videos on how to belay in guide mode but how many of these youtube stars (excluding organisations like BMC, who do have educational videos of the sort) are making videos on brushing excessive chalk off and not leaving a toilet-paper grave-yards on the moors? 

In reply to TheGeneralist:

The stance on indoor sporting is: don't.

That's purely down to litigation. If someone gets clattered cos they're spotting like a knob then that's their prerogative. As soon as the wall encourages it in any way, they're liable for any accidents that happen because of it. They follow the guidance from BMC, and the BMC arent silly enough to encourage spotting at commercial walls. 

In reply to lewisrae:

I'm going to play Devil's Avacardo here but how much of this stuff really needs to be taught.

The problem (puts on grumpy old man hat) is that people don't seem to see being ignorant as their own problem.

Here's an idea before doing something you are ingnorant/inexperienced about spend some time finding out for yourself.

Gosh I am in a mood today, however I still think I'm right. Sadly it's a pointless fantasy to expect change.

In reply to PaulJepson:

What absolute carp- this thread will descend to the usual nonsense re. young people, back in my day etc..   Pre youtube people learnt much the same as now, except they bought a book, or someone showed them a bit, usually riddled with what would be considered dodgy, and went and had a go.  I'd wager a comparatively small % started with a formal course, and probably a smaller % than now.

Signs/posters at some very popular spots would be a good idea, particularly at BMC owned cliffs - Horseshoe a case in point

In reply to lewisrae:

Unfortunately it's not just a matter of teaching people. Been actively telling people not to top rope through bolts in the last year and most the time I'm met with a response which indicates that it just doesn't apply to them. Something like "oh it's just one person" or "it's just this route at the end" or the best response was "I give money to the bolt fund so it's fine".

People know these rules, they just think that it doesn't quite apply to them or they are in a grey area. These problems are only really solved by the community standing up and being vocal.

In reply to lewisrae:

Would you call making an effort to take fewer climbing trips by plane "correct behaviour"? Seems to be the elephant in the room, if we're talking about climbers taking responsibility for their environment .....