Recommendations for Scottish routes...

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 jon 15 May 2023

I'm looking for recommendations for outstanding routes/crags... imagine a three week climbing road trip around Scotland. No set base and no absolute preferences, though probably leaning more to the west side. Driving distance isn't really a problem so probably very roughly up the west coast, along bits of the north and then... well that's probably eaten up at least three weeks already. Sadly, the more complicated places to get to, like some of the islands, will have to be disregarded due to time/planning constraints, so looking for mainland crags, with the exception of Skye, of course. 

Basic criteria: 

Approaches of up to 15 minutes max - I realise this sounds ridiculous and narrows things down enormously, but it is unfortunately essential. Or reasonably long flat approaches that can be done on a bike.

Mainly trad, HVS > E2 ish with a bit of leeway, and probably mainly single pitch, with perhaps the odd multipitch thrown in. Maybe even the odd sport route, in the sixes, though not really looking for that.

Time of year April/May/June - realistically and unfortunately, this might have to be June despite the midge problem. Or maybe September...

Asking for a friend, obviously. Thanks.

 climbingpixie 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

Creag Dubh springs to mind, though I don't know about midges. Was fine when I was there on an August afternoon but I might've got lucky. Inbred is a superb HVS and the E2s there looked amazing.

In reply to jon:

Literally just back from a shorter version of almost exactly this. Can give you more of a lessons learned post but for now click on my logbook.

Edit: think I've shared the ticklist I made with you too but no idea if that's worked.

Post edited at 18:08
 climbingpixie 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

Ooh, Sheigra might fit your bill. Short approach and cracking steep HVS-E2 stuff.

 Andy Moles 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

I defy anyone to identify any truly egregious omissions (apart from in the top grades) from this longstanding, occasionally evolving, and expertly curated list:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=101

1
 Rory Shaw 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

If you like sea cliffs it's well worth paying a visit to the east coast, Caithness. I really enjoyed Sarclet and Latheronwheel. The former is world class. Sarclet 

 Rory Shaw 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

On the west Diabaig is a must, especially the pillar

The Pillar (E2 5b)

I would also second Shiegra

Bloodlust Variation (aka Juglust) (HVS 5a)

In reply to jon:

Here's some takeaways from recent experience. More will probably come to me.

Accommodation:
We did a mix of tenting and B&B/hotels but you really want a van. Mixed feelings on this because they are definitely a plague up there on the NC500. Every layby was full of them, but they don't make it easy to do it any other way. Every campsite or hotel (understandably; I appreciate people have homes to go to) wants you checked in by 6 or 7pm. Anywhere that does food wants to shut by 7 or 8. It was ok and completely possible but it would be much less fraught if you're self contained.

Timing: 
Go in May before midges are out or it'll be hell (might be too late now - they were starting). For best results time it with a miraculous spell of great weather like we did.

Approaches:
I presume you mean 15 Latter-minutes. 15 conventional minutes doesn't get you anywhere. 15 Latter-minutes (half an hour) covers loads. You're going to have to relax that requirement. If you really mean 'max' and 'essential' then you won't leave the car park.

Bugs:
Midges weren't out yet. Horseflies weren't either. Ticks though.... omfg. There are ticks. Permethrin everything and have a pair of the special tweezers in every bag.

Location specific stuff:
Andy's list is a great starting point, but it contains many times more walking than climbing. I used it and the 'Gary's ticklist' ones and 'Scottish Rock Climbs ****' and 'Ultimate Scottish Trad Ticklist E1 to E5' and distilled them down a lot to make it into a climbing trip.
Skye is extremely busy, and the roads are ruined. Properly third world bad. Plan not to move around too much there. Glenbrittle is especially banjaxed, obviously, so avoid if you can (which you will if you don't like walk ins)
Torridon community campsite was a great find. Just a field but with toilets and a shower and an honesty box. Perfect for Diabaig.
At Diabaig don't bother with condome/con-con routes - the faff of improvising a safe descent probably cost us the time for another better route. Stick on the main crag and pillar.
Buena Vista is better than The Pillar. Oh yes it is. Both are way better than the bug and the approach to the bug is horrific. Probably leave the bug til last.
Reiff is beautiful and spectacular but I don't see the attraction of the climbing. There are 10m high slippery rounded cracks in much more accessible places. I didn't cry too hard when we got rained off there.
Sheigra only works in the evening. The sea slime is really pervasive until the sun comes round. We went out climbing after dinner (and after some weather) there. Could have stayed another day but the forecast said leave. Camping on the beach was memorable. Would go back there if it wasn't so damn far.

Post edited at 19:02
In reply to Andy Moles:

> I defy anyone to identify any truly egregious omissions (apart from in the top grades) from this longstanding, occasionally evolving, and expertly curated list:

Diode (E2 5c)

 Andy Moles 15 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Yessss, I was hoping to catch some suggestions

It's a fair cop about the long approaches, but if you ignore the mountain crags section you cut most of those out.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Oh, in that case...

I'd put Angel of Sharkness (HVS 5a) and Venture Capital (HVS 5b) in then, and if you're feeling especially generous Elgin's Crack (E2 5c)

 Andy Moles 15 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

I am NOT putting in Elgin's Crack! I said truly egregious

I agree those Skye routes are very good, but perhaps not quite the best at their respective crags/sectors. It's an arbitrary line, but I try not to let the list get too unwieldy.

Never done Diode, must do so.

 Robert Durran 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

If you are strict on the 15 minutes then it is extremely limiting! 

If you used the Wired guide I doubt you would find enough 2 and 3 star routes to fill your time unfortunately. Stretch to 30 minutes and it might be a very different story. An hour and you have boundless riches!

In reply to Andy Moles:

That's a fair aim. Although I've been thinking about it a bit since using those ticklists to plan this trip and I'm coming round to thinking there might as well be a day's worth at any crag that's included, unless it's a roadside one or a one-route crag. I mean... if you've walked out to Suidhe Biorach you're probably in the market for 4 or 5 routes. Your call but it's just another viewpoint.

> Never done Diode, must do so.

I think it's the best route I've done in Glen Nevis, and I've done..... five?

 Robert Durran 15 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Is Diode close enough to the road? I seem to remember a rather arduous slog up to it.

 DaveHK 15 May 2023
In reply to Rory Shaw:

> If you like sea cliffs it's well worth paying a visit to the east coast, Caithness. I really enjoyed Sarclet and Latheronwheel. The former is world class. Sarclet 

Sarclet is great but let's not over egg it.

1
 Andy Moles 15 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

I guess my aim was not necessarily to provide a ticklist tailored to a visiting climber, but simply to select the very best routes in Scotland - with slight allowances to include at least something of every grade in every type of location.

I think the majority of top class crags do have quite a few routes included, but I'm a sucker for lesser-known and harder-to-come-by brilliance.

 Andy Moles 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

Thinking about crags/sectors on the west that are fairly strictly no more than 15 minutes and have good routes HVS-E2, a few of the best would be:

Kilt Rock

Staffin South

Neist Financial Sector

Diabaig Pillar

Ardmair

Sheigra

In reply to Robert Durran:

> Is Diode close enough to the road?

If you believe Gary, yes. If you try it yourself, no. To be in Andy's ticklist, yes. To fit the OPs criteria, no.

Took us about as long to slog up there as it did to the crag where I might have sort of possibly stolen your route...?

Let's not kid ourselves, the OP's 15 minute rule is going to have to bend or it's not worth going, but if you allow 15 Gary-minutes it's not a problem.

 Robert Durran 15 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Took us about as long to slog up there as it did to the crag where I might have sort of possibly stolen your route...?

Ah, so that was you at Gruinard Crag the other day! I see you got some great stuff done the rest of your trip🙂

OP jon 15 May 2023
In reply to climbingpixie and Rory:

Thanks for those. I'd sort of forgotten about Creag Dubh - I did a couple of routes there a long time ago, but not Inbred. Sheigra looks excellent, noted !

I had wondered about Sarclet. Looks good.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes. I suspected you might be the same Robert. Good to put a face to a internet voice, and thanks for the local knowledge! It was a great trip. Amazingly lucky with weather.

OP jon 15 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Wow, thanks for all that. No, the ticklist thing didn't work but I've looked at your logbook.

We would be in a van. We'd also be looking for campsites so that Torridon one sounds just right.

I appreciate what you say about midges and maybe it might be best to leave it till next year. It's a trip that's been on our list of things to do for years now but each time we get to March/April there's always something that stops us. Have you any idea what September is like for midges? It's also logistically difficult as we'd be coming from southern France... The 15 minutes thing isn't a rule or something we've chosen, it's unfortunately something that a surgeon inflicted on me. More than 15 minutes is just out of the question.

I'd sort of got that feeling about Reiff and hadn't bothered to put it on the list (which might upset Rob !)

 climbingpixie 15 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Sheigra only works in the evening. The sea slime is really pervasive until the sun comes round.

We found it ok in the afternoon but maybe the howling gale helped to dry the grease off. Sadly it also meant that we only got 3 routes done before having to retreat and defrost!

OP jon 15 May 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

> Kilt Rock, Staffin South, Neist Financial Sector, Diabaig Pillar, Ardmair, Sheigra

I think I'm after quality routes rather than quantity and to be honest, if I got some great climbing in on a few memorable crags, I'd be happy ! Those sound about right to me. I'll have another look at your definitive ticklist.

Have you any idea about September and midges/horseflies/ticks ?

Post edited at 20:59
In reply to jon:

Ah ok, if you're in a van the torridon site isn't for you, but there are loads of campervan stopover places that let you empty rubbish and water up and stuff so you'll be fine. Just look at all the nc500 guides.

Can you do 15 mins then rest and go again? Is it a time thing or a distance thing? Not all 15 minute approaches are created equal.... Some of the 'short' walk ins were really unpleasant. And some of the crag descents might be pushing it depending on the underlying issue.

Others will know midge whispering better than I do, but now seems to be about when they wake up, and when they go away is when it gets cold again. But if it's windy you're fine, so on the coast tends to be the least worst in my limited experience. I've been on Islay in September and not noticed them until one evening when the wind dropped for the first time, and they had us running. There's always head nets and smidge etc. but it's nicer not to have to.

 DaveHK 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

> I'd sort of got that feeling about Reiff and hadn't bothered to put it on the list (which might upset Rob !)

There's some brilliant climbing at Reiff but the best bits are definitely more than 15 mins from the road. 

OP jon 15 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> If you are strict on the 15 minutes then it is extremely limiting! 

Yes, I know but unfortunately that's how it is - see my reply to the longsufferingropeholder.

Funnily enough it was your latest photos that prompted this thread. Maybe we should start planning for next year instead, hoping that the 15 minutes won't have shrunk !

 TobyA 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

I've been up in Scotland for a week of climbing twice in recent years in late August and have been pretty lucky with midges. It is totally variable though. A breath of wind and it's all good. No wind it's hell on earth! The closer you are to a beach seems to help a lot. Also it can be fine in the evening horrible in the morning or vice versa. 

 MG 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

Not sure if East coast is of interest but plenty of 15 minute sea cliffs in Aberdeenshire and Moray. 

There are quite a few small crags south of Sheildag (Torridon area) almost roadside.

I think Ardverikie might be doable on a bike, but perhaps a bit easy.

Glen Nevis?

1
 MG 15 May 2023
In reply to MG:

And

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/polney_crag_craig_a_barns-35/#over...

I think meets all criteria and abseil descent. Good cake and coffee supply in Dunked too.

1
 DaveHK 15 May 2023
In reply to MG:

> Not sure if East coast is of interest but plenty of 15 minute sea cliffs in Aberdeenshire and Moray. 

Moray is a decent plan C if it's wet in the west and in Caithness but I wouldn't have it as a first choice.

Aberdeenshire coast has some great climbing but between weather, smeg and birds it's probably too fickle for someone on a road trip.

Post edited at 21:57
 MikeR 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

If you make it over to the east, how about Pass of Ballater?

While it wouldn't normally make it into my list of top crags in Scotland, applying the 15 minutes approach certainly bumps it up, with a 5 minute steep slog up a hill.

Some good routes in the HVS-E2 range there, in particular Anger and Lust, Blutered, and Black Custard. 

 DaveHK 15 May 2023
In reply to MG:

> I think meets all criteria

Apart from the 'outstanding  routes/crags' bit. 😀

Sorry to sound like I'm poo-pooing all your suggestions but Polney is a bit poo in the big scheme of things.

1
 DaveHK 15 May 2023
In reply to MikeR:

> If you make it over to the east, how about Pass of Ballater?

This is a good shout if it's poor in the west.

Glen Clova and Glen Lednock are also good options in the event of poor weather in the west.

Post edited at 22:09
 MikeR 15 May 2023
In reply to DaveHK:

I've always found the Aberdeenshire sea cliffs a bit meh, but I'm probably being a bit unfair as steep pumpy routes isn't really my thing, and my expectations for sea cliffs were probably set a bit high with a dream of white horses as my first sea cliff route!

Also, June is really too late I'd say as the best cliffs are all covered in poo and nesting gulls.

 Robert Durran 15 May 2023
In reply to jon:

> Funnily enough it was your latest photos that prompted this thread. 

That's good. I had to have my arm slightly twisted to post them!

 Robert Durran 15 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Buena Vista is better than The Pillar. Oh yes it is. 

Oh no it's not. The difference between 3 and 4 stars.

> Reiff is beautiful and spectacular but I don't see the attraction of the climbing. There are 10m high slippery rounded cracks in much more accessible places. I didn't cry too hard when we got rained off there.

What? The climbing and ambience at Reiff is absolutely exquisite, But the best of it is an hour from the road.

 Alex the Alex 15 May 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

Sufficiently goaded... Truly egregious omissions to Ultimate Scottish Rock: the Kishorn Stone, the Ship, the Mushroom, the Universal etc etc.

And if it has to be taller than 5m, then my submission would be one of the routes up the full height of Signal Wall at Kintyre. They are amazing adventure routes. 

 Andy Moles 16 May 2023
In reply to jon:

> > Kilt Rock, Staffin South, Neist Financial Sector, Diabaig Pillar, Ardmair, Sheigra

> I think I'm after quality routes rather than quantity and to be honest, if I got some great climbing in on a few memorable crags, I'd be happy ! Those sound about right to me. I'll have another look at your definitive ticklist.

> Have you any idea about September and midges/horseflies/ticks ?

September is past peak for midges but they are usually still present, later in the month markedly less so. Ticks are just unbelievably ubiquitous seemingly all the time, I think the big difference in summer is that the vegetation is up so they get on you more. Wear reasonably light coloured fabric on your legs and expect to do lots of brushing/flicking if you tramp through bracken etc. I only usually seem to experience bad horseflies in the heat of summer.

I'm pretty sure I've been midged at all of those crags at some point, even though they're all pretty coastal, but they do have different aspects so playing to the breeze is key. If there's no breeze and no bright sun, just run away!

 Andy Moles 16 May 2023
In reply to Alex the Alex:

Ha, collating the best of Scottish bouldering is another thing entirely. That's the wild frontier. I'd love there to be a coffee table style book showcasing some of the best of it, it would probably be like Extreme Rock in being undercooked and premature though.

Good plug for Kintyre, that's never really been on my radar (possibly because it's more out of the way than almost anywhere).

 Neil Morrison 16 May 2023
In reply to MikeR: mmm, wonder if we are speaking about the same Aberdeenshire😏. Plenty of bird free options in the NE throughout the year at the grade the OP is looking for. How about a Robbie Gow’s Prison/Hidden Treasure/Point wall combo or Meackie Point then an evening ascent of American Route on Munich Buttress for a bit of granite action? Or a Meikle Partans/ Fulmar Wall/Harper’s Wall combo - again all bird free. Or Rosehearty with some slab stuff in the morning and early pm then a fine finish to the day on Afterglow. South of the city you could do most of the easier Earnsheugh and Craig Stirling routes. You’ve got Floor’s Craig, Harbour and Backdoor Walls, Brown and Brown Band Crags. The OP even asked for some sport as an option so we’ve got Yellow Crag or a short trip down the Angus for Kirrie, Rob’s and The Elephant. Maybe not Dream of White Horses but plenty to go at and easily enough options and quality for a visit.As to Dave HK’s weather it’s no more fickle than the west coast and we don’t get blitzed by the dreaded midge. We often benefit from the rain shadow and you really just need to consider wind direction. Still, what would I know😏 Better head down the coast and enjoy the sun that is beating down.

 henwardian 16 May 2023
In reply to jon:

I have stretched your approach time just a little bit, a couple of these are more like 20 to 25 minute's walk. I've also left out places I've never climbed at, like Glen Nevis, so the list below has some obvious gaps. However otherwise they all offer excellent HVS to E2 climbing, are suitable in the spring and are almost all single-pitch with just a couple of places that are mainly 2 pitch routes.

West Coast:

Skye: Neist Point, Kilt Rock, Staffin Slip crags, Suidhe Biorach.

Ardnamurchan ring crags if you bike the initial track.

Applecross: Sgurr a' chaorachain

Torridon: Diabaig; The Pillar + Main Cliff.

Coigach and Assynt: Ardmair, Reiff An Stiuir (25 mins walk to that bit of Reiff though).

Sutherland: Sheigra mainly 2nd geo.

East Coast:

Caithness: Lathronwheel, Sarclet, Mid Clyth, Ellens Geo

Aberdeen sea cliffs: Rosehearty, Craig Stirling, Earnsheugh

Central:

Creag Dubh

Craig a Barns Upper Cave + Polyney

Edit: Forgot Pass of ballater

Edit: Forgot Glen Clova

Hopefully that should give you enough to go at - about 1 crag per day for 3 weeks of inexplicably perfect weather with zero days rest or travel time in fact!

Gairloch has just masses of little crags very close to the road in beautiful places with loads of very enjoyable climbing but I don't think they quite rate on the bestofthebest list. If you want to do a Sea Stack, taking the bike along to Sandwood Bay and doing Am Buchaille might fullfill your criteria (I've not done it).

Post edited at 09:23
 Dave Garnett 16 May 2023
In reply to jon:

Hi Jon

I'll be interested in the recommendations.  We're just back from Skye and I'm starting to realise what I've been missing by ignoring Scotland!  I'll be flexible (ie retired) by next spring and am starting to make a list of projects...

   

 MikeR 16 May 2023
In reply to Neil Morrison:

I did say I was probably being a bit unfair to them, largely as many of the routes don't fit the sort of climbing I like. Also, living in southern Aberdeenshire I rarely venture to the northern Aberdeenshire cliffs, so was probably being a bit southerncentric there.

Agree Earnsheugh is a great crag, and I've enjoyed a few routes at Craig Stirling and Backdoor walls.

 Robert Durran 16 May 2023
In reply to Dave Garnett:

>   We're just back from Skye and I'm starting to realise what I've been missing by ignoring Scotland!  I'll be flexible (ie retired) by next spring and am starting to make a list of projects...

I don't now whether to feel sorry for you for missing out or to feel deeply envious that, at your age, you still have all the best climbing in the UK to look forward to! 

 Andy Moles 16 May 2023
In reply to Dave Garnett:

As Dan Varian says, 'all the best rock is in Scotland'.

I'm a bit worried that too many people are starting to cotton on...

OP jon 17 May 2023
In reply to MG:

> I think Ardverikie might be doable on a bike, but perhaps a bit easy.

> Glen Nevis?

Always wanted to do Ardverikie Wall. So if I could bike to the lake (and further ?) that might be OK. I've done half a dozen brilliant routes in Glen Nevis so it's firmly on the list !

OP jon 17 May 2023
In reply to Colin Moody:

Yes, thanks ! We'll have plenty of gear.

 Bulls Crack 17 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

I thought The Bug was  better than The Pillar!   Bother were great but the Pillar's finish is an anti-climax whereas the Bug is just consistently excellent.  Can't remember the approach! 

1
 Robert Durran 17 May 2023
In reply to Bulls Crack:

>  Pillar's finish is an anti-climax.

What? Lovely line and moves, albeit easing a bit, all the way to the top. If there is a flaw it is the lower part.

 Robert Durran 17 May 2023
In reply to jon:

> Always wanted to do Ardverikie Wall

Depending on what limits approaches to 15 mins, the descent might be an issue. The approach with  bikes might just about qualify.

1
 Ryan23 17 May 2023
In reply to jon:

You can bike to the loch but no further. It's  a narrow rough path from there so you'll  be walking the last bit.

 Robert Durran 17 May 2023
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> I thought The Bug was  better than The Pillar!   Both were great but the Pillar's finish is an anti-climax whereas the Bug is just consistently excellent.  Can't remember the approach! 

The approach to the Bug is a vague steep path up through the trees. Might only stretch the 15 mins slightly. Potentially extremely midgey. 

Post edited at 13:08
 ebdon 17 May 2023
In reply to Ryan23:

I would say the approach to Ardverikie wall from the loch (you deffo can't cycle further) is well over 15 mins, its also steepish if mobility is an issue. The decent is certainly longer. 

Talking of Aberdeenshire sea cliffs I visited Craig sterling earlier this year and thought it was an amazing crag. All the best routes generally harder than E2 though. On the same trip I visited pass of Ballater which was good but perhaps not worth travelling long distances to, unlike say polldubh or the Gairloch crags which offer excellent very accessible single pitch craging

Post edited at 13:24
 Robert Durran 17 May 2023
In reply to ebdon:

> Talking of Aberdeenshire sea cliffs I visited Craig sterling earlier this year and thought it was an amazing crag. All the best routes genres harder than E2 though. On the same trip I visited pass of Ballater which was good but perhaps not worth travelling long distances to.

There is some great climbing on the Aberdeen coast (Craig Stirling is a favourite with me and a really nice spot too), but I would still only have it as a back up plan on a short trip if rained out of the west. If so then Pass of Ballater could be taken in on the way if only to tick Anger and Lust which is superb.

> The approach to the Bug is a vague steep path up through the trees. Might only stretch the 15 mins slightly. Potentially extremely midgey. 

Definitely extremely ticky. It's a crawl/bash through steep moss covering loose mud covering scree with lots of recently fallen trees to make it more interesting.

You could probably do it in 15 mins if someone had not long trampled it and made the way obvious (you're welcome), but only if you're fit and fully able. That's kind of true of a lot of the walk ins; even the pillar approach has some obstacles that are definitely not just flat walking.

The crags to visit will almost certainly depend on what the reason is for the limitation. None of us here needs to know what it is but you'll want to be warned that if it's strictly limited time on your feet then the best choices will be different from those if it's time spent moving or distance travelled.

Post edited at 13:30
 ebdon 17 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

I surrounded my belayer with burning incense coils when I did the Bug, apparently it was just about bearable with a midge net!

 Robert Durran 17 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Definitely extremely ticky. It's a crawl/bash through steep moss covering loose mud covering scree.

I'm not sure it's that bad, but maybe we went the right way when I was there a few weeks ago! Definitely not straightforward walking though.

Edit: When we were there we did the neighbouring 3 pitch Teddy Bears Picnic (E1 5b) which was excellent. A pokey first pitch, and an outstanding second one.

Post edited at 13:35
 ebdon 17 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

Irritatingly i never got on Anger and lust due a combination of shocking weather, my car breaking down (unless you have a land rover with several corgis in the back don't darken the door of garages in Ballater) and getting my arse kicked on another route. Always good to have somthing to go back for!

I also thought some of the outcrops covered in the Jules Lines book were good, if you like that sort of thing. Generally walk ins up big hills though for the OP

Post edited at 13:32
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I'm not sure it's that bad, but maybe we went the right way when I was there a few weeks ago! Definitely not straightforward walking though.

Ah yes, but you "haven't climbed South of the border in 6 years". You've normalised these horrors!

In reply to ebdon:

> I surrounded my belayer with burning incense coils when I did the Bug, apparently it was just about bearable with a midge net!

We were pre-midge awakening, just, in early may, but the ticks though.... I mean, I just can't overstate, and I'm really trying to, how many ticks there were.

 Robert Durran 17 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Ah yes, but you "haven't climbed South of the border in 6 years". 

Somewhat reluctantly, that is going to change tomorrow   Weather unfortunately dictates going to Wales for the next week or so. At least you get all your money back when you cancel the Shetland ferry. I have to admit I'm struggling to get psyched; even the thought of the traffic driving south rather than north is depressing. Just hoping the actual climbing makes the strain worthwhile!

Post edited at 13:51
1
In reply to Robert Durran:

Just think of the trivial crag approaches. They should be motivation enough! You could take a chess clock labelled 'climbing' and 'trudging' and do the comparison when you get home 😉

Whereabouts? We should start a thread of recommendations...

 DaveHK 17 May 2023
In reply to ebdon:

> I would say the approach to Ardverikie wall from the loch (you deffo can't cycle further) is well over 15 mins, its also steepish if mobility is an issue. The decent is certainly longer. 

I agree with this. 

If cycling is an option it would be interesting to think about what other places it would open up for the OP.  Carn Goraig is one, nice remote feeling multi-pitch.

OP jon 17 May 2023
In reply to DaveHK:

As I implied in the op, cycling is an option - I'll have an elec mountain bike...

 DaveHK 17 May 2023
In reply to jon:

Carn Goraig is a great crag and one of the few multi pitch options you'll have with the 15 min approach thing, I'd definitely recommend it.

 Nathan Adam 17 May 2023
In reply to Bulls Crack:

Also thought the Bug was the best of the 3. The Pillar is great but The Bug is probably the only one that genuinely merits E2.

The approach is typical for a Scottish crag, through some trees up an indistinct path for 10 minutes. 

1
 ebdon 17 May 2023
In reply to jon:

Sorry to be clear - I think its over 15 mins (30 mins max?) Steep uneven walk from where you leave the bikes.

The descent is also 30 mins of rugged terrain down to the bags. 

I don't want to put you off as its a great route and location! But somthing to be aware of.

I think you can pretty much cycle to the bottom of Foinaven. Never climbed there though (was wet when I whent) and walk down is long.

Post edited at 16:12
 MikeR 17 May 2023
In reply to jon:

Not sure if it's been mentioned further up the thread, but  Sgurr a' Chaorachain could be worth a look. I've only done one route on it, which was great, but the thing that really stood out for me was that it felt very much like a proper mountain crag with only a short walk in (can't remember how long but pretty sure it was less than 15 minutes)

 DaveHK 17 May 2023
In reply to ebdon:

> I think you can pretty much cycle to the bottom of Foinaven. Never climbed there though (was wet when I whent) and walk down is long.

15 mins from the end of the track would maybe get you to Creag Urbhard but as you say, the descent will be longer.

 Birks 17 May 2023
In reply to jon:

This entire thread is really useful....

I've never really got stuck into Scotland because of the weather/complexity/driving/not-very-good-at-suffering-midges combo keeps steering me further south for easier options.... but there just looks so much good stuff...

So million dollar question, where would be good in June where I won't get eaten alive by midges?

Thanks, Luke

OP jon 17 May 2023
In reply to henwardian:

> I have stretched your approach time just a little bit........

> Hopefully that should give you enough to go at - about 1 crag per day for 3 weeks of inexplicably perfect weather with zero days rest or travel time in fact!

Brilliant, thanks !!

OP jon 17 May 2023
In reply to Birks:

> So million dollar question, where would be good in June where I won't get eaten alive by midges?

Buoux from what I can gather

 alan moore 17 May 2023
In reply to Birks:

> So million dollar question, where would be good in June where I won't get eaten alive by midges?

High mountain crags on sunny (difficult), breezy (easy) days. Cold, rainy/squally days are equally as effective.

Leave the Glen's and campsites and lochsides as fast as you can in the mornings and don't go back down until you really have to.

 Jon Read 17 May 2023
In reply to jon:

That's because they all fry!

I can highly recommend main wall Diabaig, lots of the crags around Gairloch, and Sheigra. Is Carn Mor out of the question with electric mountain bikes? 

 Jon Read 17 May 2023
In reply to Birks:

> This entire thread is really useful....

> I've never really got stuck into Scotland because of the weather/complexity/driving/not-very-good-at-suffering-midges combo keeps steering me further south for easier options.... but there just looks so much good stuff...

> So million dollar question, where would be good in June where I won't get eaten alive by midges?

Either up high or sea cliffs to maximise chance of a good breeze, although I've been eaten alive on tops of Munros when it's still.

 DaveHK 17 May 2023
In reply to Jon Read:

> Is Carn Mor out of the question with electric mountain bikes? 

Carnmore crossed my mind but it would depend on the riders skill level how much of it was rideable. I've ridden all bar a few short sections on a normal mtb but it's not something everyone would enjoy.

 Rog Wilko 18 May 2023
In reply to jon:

If it’s any use to you I have some of the SMC definitive guides which are seeking a new owner. Some are completely unmarked and unused and are listed in For Sale on here. Others have the odd route or two I’ve done highlighted. All are, I believe, the current edition. I’ve priced them inclusive of postage, or reduced if collected. We’re 5 min from J36 of M6. B&B available foc. Just thought - will you be seeing Steve Monks? He will be here for a week shortly and I could give them to him. Also, Zoe will be over later and may have plans to see you and H.

 Dave Garnett 18 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I don't now whether to feel sorry for you for missing out or to feel deeply envious that, at your age, you still have all the best climbing in the UK to look forward to! 

To be fair, I've given it a go a few times but the ratio of getting something done vs sitting in the car watching it rain is unfavourable when compared to Pembroke, SW, Provence or Cape Town!      

I think the key is being flexible enough to drop everything and get up there when the weather is good, or at least having the time to sit it out for a bit without fretting about the wasted holiday.   

 Andy Moles 18 May 2023
In reply to DaveHK:

> Carnmore crossed my mind but it would depend on the riders skill level how much of it was rideable. I've ridden all bar a few short sections on a normal mtb but it's not something everyone would enjoy.

Even if you bike to the bothy, it's way more than 15 minutes up to the crag. I guess also if walking capacity is limited, going in to Carn Mor would feel pretty committing - imagine you had a major mechanical!

In reply to Andy Moles:

Totally! One of the furthest spots in the UK from a road, access is pretty lengthy even with wheels

 Robert Durran 18 May 2023
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> I think the key is being flexible enough to drop everything and get up there when the weather is good, or at least having the time to sit it out for a bit without fretting about the wasted holiday.   

Obviously living in Scotland helps, but I'm not sure the weather is as big an issue as is often made out. If one lives in the south and has, say, a week free, one can still decide on Scotland at the last minute. Obviously more of an issue if you are the type who feels the need to book stuff ahead. Anyway, I am writing this at a service station on the M6 on, as I said earlier, the first occasion in six years I have felt the need to head south. Thinking about it, I think Pembroke is the only destination down south I might sometimes choose over Scotland without being forced by the weather.

Post edited at 11:48
OP jon 18 May 2023
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

> Totally! One of the furthest spots in the UK from a road, access is pretty lengthy even with wheels

And by chance one I've been to in another life in the 70s. Why am I telling you this ? Well, while I was there, a friend turned up by chance - having walked the whole eleven miles in a pair of rock boots !! To be fair they were ancient brown RD rock boots, but he climbed in them the next day... and then of course walked out in them !

 Bulls Crack 18 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

If I remember it correctly it sort of slinks off to the left to a ledge and avoids the big block at the top - which does look a lot harder to be fair.  Enjoyed Northumberland Wall too

We were lucky with the midge on the Bug - it had been a very dry summer and the whole holiday was virtually midge-free! 

We were rained off Loch Maree crag (thankfully)  - intimidating! 

 Bulls Crack 18 May 2023
In reply to jon:

Can certainly recommend Storm (HVS 5a). A really unusual route 

OP jon 18 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> The crags to visit will almost certainly depend on what the reason is for the limitation. None of us here needs to know what it is but you'll want to be warned that if it's strictly limited time on your feet then the best choices will be different from those if it's time spent moving or distance travelled.

Yes, you're right, so to be more specific, it's walking on the flat that I find the most debilitating. I tend to cope far better with steeper, rougher, more varied terrain. 

 Robert Durran 18 May 2023
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> If I remember it correctly it sort of slinks off to the left to a ledge and avoids the big block at the top.

I did it a few weeks ago. Just straight up the crack to the big ledge!

> We were lucky with the midge on the Bug - it had been a very dry summer and the whole holiday was virtually midge-free! 

> We were rained off Loch Maree crag (thankfully)  - intimidating! 

The only time I've done the Bug ot was the warm up on the way to the big Loch Maree crag tick. I felt a bit harder than The Pillar or Buena Vista but maybe not as good. But it has 30 years ago!

 Andy Moles 19 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

>  I think Pembroke is the only destination down south I might sometimes choose over Scotland without being forced by the weather.

It's funny isn't it how everyone, even a die-hard Scotland advocate like yourself, talks about 'Scotland' as though it's directly comparable to Pembroke or the Peak District, like it's a single climbing area.

No one, unless they're travelling from the other side of the world maybe, asks for 'climbing recommendations in England', but factoring in islands and transport network, the geographical scope is very similar.

 Andy Moles 19 May 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

Musing on this, a few possible explanations:

1. The old weather-map-tilt south-centric imperialist view of Britain, where everything north of the wall is just vaguely 'up there'.

2. The fact that good Scottish climbing areas are, broadly speaking, less clustered and more dispersed than in England and Wales, so travelling further between them is more commonly accepted as necessary.

2a. The fact that driving around in the Highlands, though not efficient for eating mileage, is at least more pleasant than the permanent grimness of motorways near the cities of England.

3. Nebulous stuff, but the fact that Scotland has something of a unified identity, more so at least than England.

P.S. apologies for going totally off topic.

Post edited at 07:16
 DaveHK 19 May 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

> Musing on this, a few possible explanations:

> 2. The fact that good Scottish climbing areas are, broadly speaking, less clustered and more dispersed than in England and Wales, so travelling further between them is more commonly accepted as necessary.

Mainly this I think, plus the fact that the majority of UKC users are south of the border and visit Scotland on a road trip of some sort.

> 3. Nebulous stuff, but the fact that Scotland has something of a unified identity, more so at least than England.

Is this going to turn into an independence thread now? 😉

1
 Andy Moles 19 May 2023
In reply to DaveHK:

> Mainly this I think, plus the fact that the majority of UKC users are south of the border and visit Scotland on a road trip of some sort.

Probably, it's definitely not just a UKC thing though.

> Is this going to turn into an independence thread now? 😉

God forbid. I'm neither Scottish nor English but have lived in both countries, so I make that observation without bias or inference!

OP jon 19 May 2023
In reply to Rog Wilko:

Hi Rog, thanks for the offer but as this is likely to be our only foray, and as I already have Scottish Rock Climbs and Rock Climbing in Scotland, buying definitive guides would be rather extravagant ! 

 Rog Wilko 19 May 2023
In reply to jon:

Rather as I thought. B&B offer still stands if it helps at all.

 Robert Durran 19 May 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

> >  I think Pembroke is the only destination down south I might sometimes choose over Scotland without being forced by the weather.

> It's funny isn't it how everyone, even a die-hard Scotland advocate like yourself, talks about 'Scotland' as though it's directly comparable to Pembroke or the Peak District, like it's a single climbing area.

Sorry, I don't think like that at all. Should have said ".....over staying in Scotland..." or "....over a Scottish venue.....". I too have noticed how southerners tend to lump Scotland together in a way that we do not with the south. Dave is probably right about the road trip thing.

1
 Andy Moles 19 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

I didn't mean to single out that instance in particular, it's just a common thing. I frequently do it too, even though I don't think like that either.

Have fun in Penfro.

Post edited at 10:38
 Robert Durran 19 May 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

> Have fun in Penfro.

Thanks. Actually starting in N. Wales. Fun start (of sorts!).

Anyway, back to trying to think of Scottish near road HVS - E2 while the Welsh rock dries!

 65 19 May 2023
In reply to jon:

> Thanks for those. I'd sort of forgotten about Creag Dubh - I did a couple of routes there a long time ago, but not Inbred. Sheigra looks excellent, noted !

Possibly you already did it but don’t forget The Hill which is an awesome route, though my distant memory says the grade is for runouts rather than difficulty.

> I had wondered about Sarclet. Looks good.

Sarclet is superb.

Not really anything to add to this very comprehensive thread. If you haven’t climbed at Polldubh/Glen Nevis then that’s a must. You should be ok to get along to Gorge Crag where there are several outstanding routes at your grades. Plague of Blazes is a contender for the best single pitch I’ve ever done, though it’s quite bold.
 

Same goes for Dunkeld, The Way Through and The Rut at Polney and several at the Cave Crags would give you a good day.

Re wee biting beasties, they’ll still be out in September so you’ll want some wind or bright sun, neither of which are unlikely. Hope you get lucky with the weather and have a brilliant trip.

In reply to jon:

Now that is keen

 Crest Jewel 19 May 2023
In reply to jon:

Diabaig.

 Robert Durran 19 May 2023
In reply to jon:

I wouldn't rule out, if favourable weather and last minute booking available, jumping on a ferry to Lewis. Loads of superb climbing at your grades with very short approaches on a stunningly beautiful coast.

 Robert Durran 21 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Just think of the trivial crag approaches. They should be motivation enough! You could take a chess clock labelled 'climbing' and 'trudging' and do the comparison when you get home 😉

Well today I did the most horrible crag approach I've done in ages. The result of trying to think of somewhere to avoid the crowds, parking issues and heat of a sunny weekend. A lot of unpleasant effort and driving for a good but overstarred (by Scottish standards) route. Midweek should be better though.

Post edited at 23:10
In reply to Robert Durran:

Where? I'm going to guess moelwyns. Carreg Bengam Bach?

 Robert Durran 22 May 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Where? I'm going to guess moelwyns. Carreg Bengam Bach?

Simmde Du. Will be even worse once the bracken comes out properly. And to think people moan about Seana Mheallan!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Oh, right. Yes, that one was probably a bit squelchy. We did find an ok way round higher up for the walk out but there's no way to see it until you're at the crag.

If it makes you feel better you probably won't find anywhere else quite as bad as that unless you stick to super-remote esoterica.

Post edited at 13:00
 alan moore 22 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Simmde Du. Will be even worse once the bracken comes out properly. 

Did a couple of routes there and they were good but overstarred.

I do remember the thrash up from the bothy by the lake though! The toughest crag approach I've ever done, crawling through overhead bracken and falling down boulder traps!

In reply to alan moore:

>  I do remember the thrash up from the bothy by the lake though! The toughest crag approach I've ever done, crawling through overhead bracken and falling down boulder traps!

Yeah turns out if you ignore the guidebook and don't go as far round the lake, but instead break off up the hill then follow the contours round to the crag, the bog isn't really much of a bog and the bracken is nowhere near as challenging. But like I say I only know that having seen it from the crag, after experiencing the grim way in.

 Robert Durran 22 May 2023
In reply to alan moore:

We made the mistake of only looking at UKC comments after the event! Seems the internet is slow to reach parts of these southern backwaters..... Saw your comment and thought it was probably your sort of thing. Once at the crag we could see that the longer approach round the south side of the lake was, as people said, far better and we went back that way (only ten minutes of horrible ground). On the approach we actually discussed bailing in disgust back to Scotland!

Only had time for the HVS. Nice climbing */**, but rather shortlived and the terraces detracted.

 alan moore 22 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

Try Cwfrwy for something a bit more mainstream. Gwdryn is brilliant.

 DaveHK 22 May 2023
In reply to alan moore:

> Try Cwfrwy for something a bit more mainstream. Gwdryn is brilliant.

Can I have a vowel please Carol?

1

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...