Proposed Routes for Retro Bolting at Glenmarksie

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 jonnie3430 10 May 2021

I've been led to believe there is a proposal to bolt the existing lines of Hot Dog (E3 5c,) Wild Mint (S 4b,) and Glenmarksie Brothers (VS 4c,) and a new line right of Hot Dog at Glenmarksie.

I was shown a Facebook message where the proposers are looking for feedback to see if the idea is popular amongst some local climbers, I couldn't see any posts contacting the climbing community through UKC so I thought I'd stick one up, what do people think? 

I was suggested to make a poll but need to be a UKC supporter to do so and have tried to rephrase as a normal post instead.  Glenmarksie Crag

2
 Michael Gordon 10 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

I can't think why one would bolt the Severe or VS since both see plenty ascents. Hot Dog doesn't seem to, but then it looks good in the photo and I'm struggling to see space for another line right of it - must be pretty eliminate? I wonder if the idea of bolting Hot Dog is basically justification for the new line which otherwise would be seen as too close to the trad route.  

1
 DaveHK 10 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

I can set a poll up if you like.

 finc00 10 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

Bolting any of those routes would be a step too far.

6
 iainpowell 11 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

Both the Severe and VS are enjoyable and protected routes and should remain traditionally protected routes. It's concerning to read that there are thoughts on bolting popular, low grade trad routes at (until recently) an established traditional crag.

Thanks for posting this to the wider local climbing community. 

4
 gravy 11 May 2021
In reply to iainpowell:

Why would anyone bolt a severe (or VS for that matter)?

However, I see from the crag they've bolted 2 F3a routes so they've bolted two VDs already.  More bolts than sense and an indication of drill-happy activists. Time to put the Hilti down and trade your bolts for a rack of nuts.

10
 Lankyman 11 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

Nip it in the bud. Now.

9
 Martin Hore 11 May 2021
In reply to gravy:

> Why would anyone bolt a severe (or VS for that matter)?

So that folk who currently have to travel abroad to enjoy good quality sport climbing in the lower grades have something to go at closer to home perhaps?

You probably didn't mean it, but your comment sounds a bit elitist. As in "no-one needs bolt protection to climb at severe or VS - bolt protection is only required for real climbers who climb 7a and above".

I'm as committed to retaining our trad climbing tradition as anyone, but I'm not sure it helps our cause to deny that there is an unfulfilled appetite for easier sport climbing in the UK.

Martin

15
 Offwidth 11 May 2021
In reply to Martin Hore:

Its highly unlikely such lower grade routes will change from trad to sport, bolts will just get chopped. I agree there is a demand for lower grade sport but I think safety issues on lower angle rock and our trad history means that won't be met any time soon. Where retro-bolting has gained traction is on very bold extreme routes with good climbing but very few trad ascents, meaning lack of traffic allows their condition to deteriorate.

10
 bigbobbyking 11 May 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> I agree there is a demand for lower grade sport but I think safety issues on lower angle rock 

What are the safety issues with lower angled rock? I can see that it's less safe to fall off on lower grade routes in general as you're more likely to hit a ledge etc. But that's true whether you're on bolts or trad gear.  On the continent there's plenty of bolted F4 slabby routes that you wouldn't want to take a whipper on...

1
 spenser 11 May 2021
In reply to bigbobbyking:

That's Offwidth's point, bolts or no, you are still going to break your ankles if you fall off and hit a ledge badly so there is no benefit to bolting the routes. 

9
 Martin Hore 11 May 2021
In reply to spenser:

> That's Offwidth's point, bolts or no, you are still going to break your ankles if you fall off and hit a ledge badly so there is no benefit to bolting the routes. 

Agreed, if your presumption is that bolting a route turns it from a "leader must not fall" trad route into one with a redpoint-type ethic. But if the ethic remains the same then putting in a few well-placed bolts will certainly make it a safer lead. I don't think you could really argue that bolting Sunset Slab wouldn't make it safer, though it would detract hugely from the quality and experience of the route of course. 

Martin

 Iamgregp 11 May 2021
In reply to gravy:

As far as I can gather from the previous thread on the bolts at this crag, there were no trad routes on that section, and they more or less had to dig it out of the mud to make them. 

It's for kids and beginners to learn innit, it's not harming anyone, or threatening any trad routes, so no biggie.

After all, of some kid has learnt to climb at the wall (as I and many other do these days) and is learning on real rock, it's really going to help them if there some low grade sport to learn on...

29
 Robert Durran 11 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> After all, of some kid has learnt to climb at the wall (as I and many other do these days) and is learning on real rock, it's really going to help them if there some low grade sport to learn on...

Just the opposite I would have thought. No

8
 Iamgregp 11 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Ah yes, you're quite right.  It would be far better for them to start on a 7a or to start leading trad, that'd be much more enjoyable and safer for them. 

Post edited at 15:06
35
 Robert Durran 11 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

All bolting easy sport climbs does is to allow people to transfer their skills outdoors. That may or may not be a good thing, but they are not learning anything.

10
 Iamgregp 11 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Apart from how outdoor climbing differs from indoor climbing, how to read real rock, how to rethread, how to clean a route, how to place their draws on their harnesses and then the bolts, what rope drag is and what to do about it etc...  There are a lot of ways that indoor climbing differs from outdoor sport.

Post edited at 16:31
17
 tehmarks 11 May 2021
In reply to Martin Hore:

> But if the ethic remains the same then putting in a few well-placed bolts will certainly make it a safer lead.

How? I've never been anywhere near Glenmarksie so I'm not familiar with the routes in question, but by the accounts on here they're adequately protected. Adding bolts to a decently-protected route that you can't sensibly fall off anyway (if you like your ankles) doesn't make it any safer at all. At best it changes nothing other than for people who can't place gear well (who should really learn to place gear well), and at worst it leads people into a false sense of security on a route that you still can't fall off because you'll still break your ankles, bolts or nuts.

4
 Flashy 12 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

If the situation is as presented then it's a bit frustrating. While I've always been fairly anti-bolt I thought that what has been done at Glenmarksie is quite positive, with new sport lines being put in where trad lines did not exist and were unlikely to ever exist, with a bonus that they allowed climbing on the cleanest walls at the crag. I am hopeful that more people coming to the crag for the sport (I expect especially the low grade stuff) would eventually lead to the trad routes getting more traffic because they do get dirty quite quickly.

But this sounds a bit like classic "thin end of the wedge" stuff. Wild Mint is a nice route and decently protected; there's no real reason to bolt it other than that there are already bolted routes at the crag and so it's consistent to bolt it too.

Maybe all the new bolted routes should be chopped to avoid the temptation of inappropriate retrobolting in the future? (Being tongue in cheek there).

It's good they're seeking the view of the community but it does need to be aired publicly and not just in private messages. Which they may have intended after first canvassing opinion from friends? Thanks for posting.

3
Blanche DuBois 12 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> All bolting easy sport climbs does is to allow people to transfer their skills outdoors. That may or may not be a good thing, but they are not learning anything.

What an absurd comment.  Learning to transfer their skills outside is exactly what they learn - or do you think the inside is the same as the outside? How you garnered so many "likes" for such a stupid elitist comment beggars belief.

44
Blanche DuBois 12 May 2021
In reply to spenser:

> That's Offwidth's point, bolts or no, you are still going to break your ankles if you fall off and hit a ledge badly so there is no benefit to bolting the routes. 

Well, you might hit a ledge but you're significantly less likely to deck out, no? I know from personal experience that a 10m fall onto the ground hurts a f*ck lot more than a 2.5m onto the rock, ledge or not.  In the UK not all routes can be sown up like a kipper.

12
 Martin Haworth 12 May 2021
In reply to Offwidth: I agree there is a demand for for low grade sport and unlike you I do think that more easy angled rock will be bolted in the future, even retrobolting of easy trad routes. There are plenty of climbers who have learnt indoors, don’t own trad gear, only climb very low grades, but still want to climb outside. I would say this is a rapidly growing area of the sport.

I’m not generally in favour of retro bolting of trad routes, particularly well protected ones, but I suspect this will be an increasingly common scenario. 

8
 Rich W Parker 12 May 2021
In reply to iainpowell:

I agree with you. I have no problem with crags becoming 'hybridised' if there are sectors worthy of it - eliminates in between existing trad lines excepted. However I'm dead against retrobolting of existing trad lines that follow natural protection, or even if they have a history of boldness.

2
 Robert Durran 12 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Apart from how outdoor climbing differs from indoor climbing, how to read real rock, how to rethread, how to clean a route, how to place their draws on their harnesses and then the bolts, what rope drag is and what to do about it etc...  There are a lot of ways that indoor climbing differs from outdoor sport.

I'll reply to you rather than the ridiculous and tedious Blanche. Yes, you are right, there are, of course, a few superficial differences between indoor climbing and sport climbing, but these could be taught in about half an hour. Obviously climbing on rock is different but that is not specific to sport climbing.

I should also clarify that my first post was working on the assumption (perhaps wrongly) that easy sport was being seen as a useful stepping stone from indoor climbing to trad. My point was that I'm not convinced it is and more likely, for better or worse, just to turn people into sport climbers.

Post edited at 19:33
8
 Lankyman 13 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I'll reply to you rather than the ridiculous and tedious Blanche. Yes, you are right, there are, of course, a few superficial differences between indoor climbing and sport climbing, but these could be taught in about half an hour. Obviously climbing on rock is different but that is not specific to sport climbing.

> I should also clarify that my first post was working on the assumption (perhaps wrongly) that easy sport was being seen as a useful stepping stone from indoor climbing to trad. My point was that I'm not convinced it is and more likely, for better or worse, just to turn people into sport climbers.

Yes to all of this. The evidence of retro-bolted easier trad in the Dales, which has been ongoing for decades, is that it just fuels an appetite for even more of the same. Other trad crags are being ignored rather than be visited by an increased number of indoor climbers who have moved on to trad. The retro-bolters then feel they have a mandate to move in since 'no-one' is using a 'wasted resource'.

3
OP jonnie3430 13 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

The stepping stone for indoors to trad should be seconding trad.

4
 Offwidth 13 May 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

I don't agree with that view. What happened in the Dales was not bolting of low grade trad routes. That bolting was discussed at local area BMC meetings, wider in the BMC, and online with the wider climbing public, especially when controversial examples cropped up. It's possible to comment democratically if problems arise (and the BMC local area membership is definitely more conservative on average towards bolts than the climbing public). The consequence of being ignored for some limestone crags means vegetation takes over and the climb quality starts to degrade seriously, so there is a balance to be had on steep compact routes that get quickly overgrown or very dirty without traffic.... unless we want the routes to be lost. Also over the years frost damage makes some routes unclimbable....go try the old severe left of Cumberbund, one of my most terrifying experiences on rock with not a single solid hold or runner in 45m due to freeze thaw action... goodness knows how much loose rock was cleared by the original FA team.

Still, I'm almost completely against retrobolting of low grade trad and thought I should be a bit clearer why.

Firstly, low grade usually means protection is available, or if not, bold climbs mean there are lots of things to hit. For lower angle routes indoors there is more control on route design, and people watching for dangerous practice and insurance covering liability; even so, some routes make me wince even when just on a TR setup. Lead falls on sports climbs can go a long way even with good belaying and bones can get broken with poor contact from only a metre (as I've seen with bouldering accidents).

Secondly, I think the climbing community really need to sort out what outdoor lower grade 'sport' climbing actually is. We have too many routes bolted dangerously by enthusiasts (like the ones debolted by the BMC at Horseshoe due to fundamental problems with the rock quality). We have climbs where some loose rock is inevitable. We have other climbs that have good bolting and low prang potential. The former routes are OK for the activists who know the score. Yet combine this with inexperienced climbers moving outdoors for the first time and we have a problem. I think the risks are such that for retrobolting most low grade trad climbs becomes unacceptable. Loose rock on a slab can bounce out uncontrollably in unpredictable directions (a lesson that applies also to group use on trad if there is any loose rock). On this topic I think anyone climbing in most Peak sport quarries, who is rich enough to have significant assets, is nuts not to be third party insured (one very good reason to be a BMC member). I'd argue sport grades should only be applied on their own in guidebooks to bolted routes that are solid and well bolted.... other routes should get a trad grade first to describe the adjectival risks and a sport grade second. 

Finally, the rarity of such routes means they will almost certainly become polished and shit through overuse.

2
 john arran 13 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

> The stepping stone for indoors to trad should be seconding trad.

 A big reason why this avenue isn't followed more often is the long-propagated insistence, by both trad and sport climbers (though I believe the latter was a spin-off from the former) that if you've top-roped or seconded a route you haven't succeeded on it in any way that is acknowledged by most peers.

There has always been a desire from a significant proportion of climbers for technical climbing without the complications and inherent danger of trad leading. This is largely why sport climbing evolved in the first place, though I suspect it wouldn't have evolved nearly so quickly, and separated itself from trad nearly so decisively, were top-rope ascents to have been afforded some degree of acceptance all along.

We're left with an either/or situation, particularly on easier lines and on crags accessible from above, where a route can't be done in the style of one's choice. This, of course, leads to disputes as to which routes should be dedicated to which style, when a simple acceptance of top-rope credibility, with perhaps some support for top anchor access at times,  would have prevented much of the contention.

The way many easy sport routes are equipped nowadays, with bolts little more than a metre apart, really is little different from top-roping, and it is a shame that new climbers are left feeling that one offers 'success' on a route while the other is poo-pooed as a much lesser achievement.

If people are serious about preventing the retrobolting of easier routes, making top-rope ascents credible and facilitating easy rigging of top anchors would be a good way to achieve that.

The simple addition of a sport grade for top-rope ascents, alongside the trad lead grade, would go a long way to achieving that.

Post edited at 11:20
 Offwidth 13 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

It would take away some of the hotspot dishonest grade chasing as well: in comparison, for say top-roping that first unprotected E1, top roping some well protected traditional style HS's might be tougher.

The irony is UK tech grades originally came from Font, via southern sandstone, and Font grades are about the difficulty of the full sequence, not the single move.

 john arran 13 May 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

There's another precedent too, which is that sport grades are routinely assigned to top-rope routes on climbing walls, so there's very little reason to expect that new climbers wouldn't be perfectly fine with transferring that 'norm' to outdoor routes.

Of course, top-rope anchors would be the most difficult part to agree upon in many cases. A lot of southern sandstone has the advantage of trees at the top, while many trad crags don't, but I think this is where a degree of compromise will be needed. A fixed anchor at the top of a single-pitch trad climb (often no more than stakes in the ground well back) would only minimally affect the trad route, and may well be the best compromise to ensure the continuance of trad leads on almost all lower grade crags.

Post edited at 11:58
 Lankyman 13 May 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> I don't agree with that view. What happened in the Dales was not bolting of low grade trad routes. That bolting was discussed at local area BMC meetings, wider in the BMC, and online with the wider climbing public, especially when controversial examples cropped up.

I'm not sure I follow you here? It depends on how you define 'low grade trad' but I wasn't aware of any consultation at all 10 to 20 years ago when the development of places like Gigg South/North got underway. By and large it seemed like a good development at the time but then boundaries were pushed and lines crossed. Bolts were placed too close to good trad lines making them pretty much pointless. More recently, there just appears to have been a complete dearth of trad development and, as I said earlier, almost complete abandonment of once-popular trad crags and folks flocking to the latest retro-bolted venues. Your other points are valid and I largely agree.

1
 Robert Durran 13 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

> The stepping stone for indoors to trad should be seconding trad.

Of course. And seconding is, of course, the acceptable face of top roping

 Offwidth 13 May 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

Did you go to the Yorkshire area meetings and make those points?

The was plenty of online discussion here, including quite a few posts by you 10 years ago. People can see this by searching older messages for 'Gigg bolting' or 'Yorkshire bolting'

This was one of the earlier UKC threads.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rock_talk/yorkshire__bolt__meeting-15884?...

As for the dearth of trad development, most obvious lines where we have access and no environmental issues have been climbed in Yorkshire and the Peak. Yet trad enthusiasm is still there with regular posts on cleaning of unfashionable venues and lines here and on the UKB recently cleaned thread.

 Robert Durran 13 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

> The way many easy sport routes are equipped nowadays, with bolts little more than a metre apart, really is little different from top-roping.

In theory maybe, but, if there feels any chance of falling off, I suspect it is a very different experience for the vast majority of climbers.

> If people are serious about preventing the retrobolting of easier routes, making top-rope ascents credible and facilitating easy rigging of top anchors would be a good way to achieve that.

But that would probably turn crags into outdoor climbing walls, festooned with top ropes making it difficult to actually get on routes to lead them. This happened to some local crags during lockdown. Ok temporarily, but I'm not sure I would want it continued.

2
 john arran 13 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> But that would probably turn crags into outdoor climbing walls, festooned with top ropes making it difficult to actually get on routes to lead them. This happened to some local crags during lockdown. Ok temporarily, but I'm not sure I would want it continued.

Would you prefer that a proportion of crags end up being bolted? The 'just say no' approach that has been in place so far is clearly creaking under the strain. I would think it better that some suitable crags were enjoyed as being dual-purpose rather than see further encroachment and dispute between factions. The tide is currently going out and there's no sign of that changing any time soon, so this looks to be a perfect time for a strategy rethink.

3
 Robert Durran 13 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

> Would you prefer that a proportion of crags end up being bolted? The 'just say no' approach that has been in place so far is clearly creaking under the strain.

If I were in an area with loads of local cragging within evening or afternoon reach, then it would probably be ok to sacrifice some. Where I am in the Central Belt we have few such local crags and I would be very loathe to lose any of them from the circuit of early season trad to get going after the winter. It has worked (after a battle against retro-bolting) in Ratho Quarry by accepting new sport routes, but I can't see it working elsewhere.

1
 Iamgregp 13 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Yeah fair enough, I'd agree with that - apart from the part about Blanche!

I should also clarify my original point - the part of the crag where the low grade sport routes are has been there but (as I understand it) buried under earth and foliage since the beginning of time, at some point someone could have unearthed them and put up trad routes, but nobody bothered, presumably as the routes it yielded would have not justified the effort (and given the low grades the sport routes now there, they'd be right) but such is the clamour for low grade sport routes somebody though this a worthwhile endeavour.  

The retro bolting of existing trad routes or next to them is a different matter, and I'm not suggesting that these low grade routes should create a precedent for bolting any of the rest of the crag.  I appreciate existing trad routes are special and need to me preserved.

And look (unpopular opinion incoming) if people feel threatened by these low grade routes being there then I'm sorry, maybe if they'd pulled their finger out, dug them out and cleaned them and climbed them, they'd have some FA's in their name and they sport crags would likely not be there now.

Of course, there are many on here who just feel sport climbing shouldn't exist in the UK, and that more new sport climbers is a bad thing, and will downvote anything to do with them, but given the way climbing is going they're going to get RSI from all the downvoting they're going to need to do over the next couple of decades.   

Post edited at 14:14
2
 Iamgregp 13 May 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> Still, I'm almost completely against retrobolting of low grade trad and thought I should be a bit clearer why.

> Firstly, low grade usually means protection is available, or if not, bold climbs mean there are lots of things to hit. For lower angle routes indoors there is more control on route design, and people watching for dangerous practice and insurance covering liability; even so, some routes make me wince even when just on a TR setup. Lead falls on sports climbs can go a long way even with good belaying and bones can get broken with poor contact from only a metre (as I've seen with bouldering accidents).

> Secondly, I think the climbing community really need to sort out what outdoor lower grade 'sport' climbing actually is. We have too many routes bolted dangerously by enthusiasts (like the ones debolted by the BMC at Horseshoe due to fundamental problems with the rock quality). We have climbs where some loose rock is inevitable. We have other climbs that have good bolting and low prang potential. The former routes are OK for the activists who know the score. Yet combine this with inexperienced climbers moving outdoors for the first time and we have a problem. I think the risks are such that for retrobolting most low grade trad climbs becomes unacceptable. Loose rock on a slab can bounce out uncontrollably in unpredictable directions (a lesson that applies also to group use on trad if there is any loose rock). On this topic I think anyone climbing in most Peak sport quarries, who is rich enough to have significant assets, is nuts not to be third party insured (one very good reason to be a BMC member). I'd argue sport grades should only be applied on their own in guidebooks to bolted routes that are solid and well bolted.... other routes should get a trad grade first to describe the adjectival risks and a sport grade second. 

Everything you've said here is correct, but I can't see what difference it being trad or sport makes?  Inexperienced climber are going to dislodge rocks or fall on to ledges whether their runner is a bolt or a nut.

> Finally, the rarity of such routes means they will almost certainly become polished and shit through overuse.

Yes this is true, but if they're that low in the grade most experienced climbers wouldn't give a shit anyway. 

Case in point Glenmarksie - would anyone on this thread even bother warming up on a f3?  I'd get a better warm up changing by eating a sandwich

 S Andrew 13 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

To be clear, the bolting under discussion in the OP is not on the subsidiary wall, but is the retrobolting of established (and starred) routes on the main crag.

I've done Glenmarksie Brothers. The suggestion that bolting would improve it is simply bizarre.

1
 john arran 13 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> If I were in an area with loads of local cragging within evening or afternoon reach, then it would probably be ok to sacrifice some.

Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I'm not suggesting 'sacrificing' any crags; that's the kind of language that would be used to describe a crag that was being retrobolted.

I'm merely suggesting that people should feel more comfortable top-roping on some crags to reduce the apparent demand for sacrificial sport crags.

You may well find that the mix of trad leaders and top-ropers at the same crag actually encourages people to give trad a go, in a way that whole crags devoted to sport climbing never would.

 Offwidth 13 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

I've already said the main difference is the general acceptance of risk in trad climbing with risk being central to the game. I think the loose rock issue is just as valid for some trad venue choices for groups... one reason I think Aldery is just as an unsuitable venue as those with 'sport' climbs with loose rock.

On the other question I care about many climbs that risk getting trashed without say the increasingly good group practice I witness in the Peak (people scrabbling about on routes too hard for them, in unsuitable dirty footwear, seems rarer by the year). I enjoy soloing hundreds of grit routes of VD and below in familiar circuits, as well as helping friends to climb and to lead on them.

Back on the sport climbs, excessive polish means the grades soon become unreliable, adding further risk, which on F4 and below is where its most unwelcome ... my first intro to outdoor sport climbing was in the south of France and if I hadn't soon tried elsewhere I might have given it up as a sub-activity for life. I climbed some F4s so polished and desperate I'd rather have led a grit E1; off the easier climbing lines you could often see the original gorgeous rock quality.

 Iamgregp 13 May 2021
In reply to S Andrew:

Yep, that's why I made it clear in my post.  Can understand why people would not want bolts on established routes on the main crag.

 redjerry 14 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

I'm totally with you there John. However, in my experience (in the states at least), sport climbers are really puffed up about leading routes, which from my perspective at least is actually a little bizarre since, for me, sport climbing is entirely about the movement. Hell, practically the only sport routes I bother to lead are FA's and even then only because I have to!)

Post edited at 00:17
1
 Michael Gordon 14 May 2021
In reply to redjerry:

I can see where you're coming from, but it's surely a different feeling making hard moves above a bolt than below a top anchor. The former would seem more useful training for difficult trad leads, if climbing hard above (good) gear is more the issue than the basic gear skills.

2
 john arran 14 May 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I can see where you're coming from, but it's surely a different feeling making hard moves above a bolt than below a top anchor. The former would seem more useful training for difficult trad leads, if climbing hard above (good) gear is more the issue than the basic gear skills.

The problem with this argument is that, while undeniably true that climbing above a bolt feels different to (and, for most, harder than) being on a top-rope, it also seems undeniable that people who are concerned about such things want bolts to be closer together, and as a result they're getting closer together. On the easiest routes I equip, the bolts are rarely much below one's waist when you're able to clip the next one. People often don't want to be above a bolt and would prefer to climb routes where that rarely happens. They simply want the top-rope experience while still ticking the leading box, and this is mostly down to the way that our climbing society has downplayed the worthiness of top-rope ascents.

If people would be happy climbing as hard as they can without risk of falling, what possible reason could there be for not recognising that as a worthy objective? If it means the same routes can also be climbed and enjoyed by trad leaders, what is there to lose that doesn't simply boil down to elitism?

2
 sheppy 14 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

What do the first ascentionists think? 

On a quick read through above I didn't see any mention of their opinion.

Or does their opinion not count to either side? 

 DaveHK 14 May 2021
In reply to sheppy:

> What do the first ascentionists think? 

> On a quick read through above I didn't see any mention of their opinion.

> Or does their opinion not count to either side? 

It seems to be part of the protocol to speak to first ascentionists but personally I don't believe their views should carry any more weight than those of other climbers.

1
 Robert Durran 14 May 2021
In reply to redjerry:

> I'm totally with you there John. However, in my experience (in the states at least), sport climbers are really puffed up about leading routes, which from my perspective at least is actually a little bizarre since, for me, sport climbing is entirely about the movement.

For me sport climbing is very much about leading because the psyche to outweigh my fear of falling off and climb near my limit above bolts is a massive part of the thrill and of the challenge. I know this ought to be more a side of trad climbing but then I am so conservative about risking a fall that it very rarely is. Yes, I know this just makes me a bit rubbish........

In reply to Martin Haworth:

> I agree there is a demand for for low grade sport and unlike you I do think that more easy angled rock will be bolted in the future, even retrobolting of easy trad routes. There are plenty of climbers who have learnt indoors, don’t own trad gear, only climb very low grades, but still want to climb outside. I would say this is a rapidly growing area of the sport.

Exactly.

A lot of young people are taking up indoor climbing as a sociable and relatively safe sport.  It's a completely different and larger demographic to old school trad climbers.  Many of them have no interest in taking risks or learning trad, for them it's an athletic activity, they will push the difficulty but they want it safe and they don't want to carry a ton of ironmongery.

As long as there was easy access to better climbing in Europe there was a safety valve but if Brexit and Covid make travel harder there will be more pressure.

4
 S Andrew 14 May 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

The pressure should be on them to learn the requisite skills.

7
Calski 14 May 2021
In reply to S Andrew: why?

15
 redjerry 15 May 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

This is also true where I live. One rather unpleasant side effect is that some from this group of climbers are now buying drills and doing new routes. As someone who just finished a 2500 route limestone guide I can say with some authority that the results aren't pretty! 

Post edited at 00:52
 S Andrew 15 May 2021
In reply to Calski:

Because that is the current situation.

Feel free to explain why they shouldn’t.

1
 deacondeacon 15 May 2021
In reply to Calski:

> why?

Because, to satisfy their wants & needs, there is a requirement to permanently damage the rock by drilling it and installing bits of metal. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a time and place for bolts and I've loved plenty of sport routes but it's definitely not a human right. 

1
 Andrew Wells 15 May 2021
In reply to deacondeacon:

Neither is it a human right to say "you can't bolt here" of course, and pointing out either isn't helpful or illuminating.

Part of the problem is that a lot of the trad climbing community don't want sport climbing. Any route that would be a good climb unless it is entirely unprotected, they think should be trad. My view is that sport climbing on British rock should be promoted so that it's as accessible and varied as trad, and given how much of the country is solely trad, that means we need a lot more sport putting up in quality locations

42
 Wicamoi 15 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

On the face of it this proposal is so outlandish (and provocative) that it feels like a wind-up to me. Was any rationale for bolting these routes presented? Is anyone involved prepared to defend it?

1
 Jon Read 15 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

But the discussion here is about retro-bolting trad routes. Where do you stand on that?

 Lankyman 15 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

> Neither is it a human right to say "you can't bolt here" of course, and pointing out either isn't helpful or illuminating.

> Part of the problem is that a lot of the trad climbing community don't want sport climbing. Any route that would be a good climb unless it is entirely unprotected, they think should be trad. My view is that sport climbing on British rock should be promoted so that it's as accessible and varied as trad, and given how much of the country is solely trad, that means we need a lot more sport putting up in quality locations

And where exactly are these 'quality locations'?

1
 Robert Durran 15 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

> My view is that sport climbing on British rock should be promoted so that it's as accessible and varied as trad, and given how much of the country is solely trad, that means we need a lot more sport putting up in quality locations

To achieve that you would probably have to retro-bolt vast numbers of good quality trad routes. I don't think there is sufficient quality undeveloped rock to achieve it otherwise. Do you see that as realistic?

Post edited at 08:47
 john arran 15 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Is anybody interested in compromise, or will positions remain entrenched until people take matters into their own hands and conflict escalates?

I offered a way possible way forward upthread (albeit in general terms as I'm not familiar with the venue in question here), which would potentially allow both sport and trad climbers to enjoy many of the same routes on the same crags, and the only substantive feedback amounted to 'I don't want top-ropers on 'my' routes'.

I think climbers need to start looking at this whole issue more constructively to make sure a damaging schism isn't allowed to grow. At the moment I see precious little respect for the opinions and desires of others.

 deacondeacon 15 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

> Neither is it a human right to say "you can't bolt here" 

Ffs, of course it is!  In the same way that it's my right to tell someone not to chip a hold, grafitti a crag or flytip  in The Lakes. 

> Part of the problem is that a lot of the trad climbing community don't want sport climbing. Any route that would be a good climb unless it is entirely unprotected, they think should be trad. My view is that sport climbing on British rock should be promoted so that it's as accessible and varied as trad, and given how much of the country is solely trad, that means we need a lot more sport putting up in quality locations

I know hundreds of climbers from beginners to superheros and  just don't see this 'trad climbing, anti bolting community' you seem to be so sure is out there. Climbers enjoy climbing, and I can only think of one person ever, who said he doesn't sport climb (he was 80 and sadly gone now). 

Most climbers just love climbing, and thankfully most climbers can see that the option of developing a route with minimal damage to the rock should typically take precedence over the option which entails damage. This doesn't mean that bolts are a no, no, just that bolting routes should be questioned, discussed and conscensused over before irreversible damage is carried out. 

2
 Mick Ward 15 May 2021
In reply to Calski:

> why?

Because otherwise it's a race to the bottom. And the result is that climbing will become more and more and more sanitised (and increasingly ripe for commoditisation). What brings most joy in climbing will be lost - maybe forever.

Mountaineering begat trad. Trad begat sport. The ethos of mountaineering (and trad) is self-reliance. Once you part company with self-reliance, you're on dangerous ground metaphorically. You may also be on dangerous ground literally. Every year I see sport climbers in unsafe situations just getting to and from certain crags where I live.

In making climbing ever safer, you decrease the emphasis on requisite skills. Lacking those skills, people's behaviour gets more and more dangerous (e.g. the shit belaying that's so prevalent today). And, as redjerry says, when the unskilled get their hands on drills, it ain't pretty - and can often be highly dangerous, both for them and those who have the dubious pleasure of doing their routes.

Mick

2
 S Andrew 15 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

“Requisite skills” could easily  include safe (and considerate) top-roping.

I think you overstate people’s reluctance to top-rope. It’s certainly not borne out by my experience in central Scotland. But their Crag manners could sometimes be better.

There is clearly a vociferous minority who feel that the way to achieve an objective is not to acquire the skills, but to insist on making the objective easier (usually by someone else’s effort - it’s certainly easier and probably cheaper to learn trad than to acquire bolting gear and the skills to use it safely).

 Andrew Wells 15 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes, I do. Retrobolting is fine.

30
 Robert Durran 15 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

> Yes, I do. Retrobolting is fine.

I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think you are going to achieve your objective by retro-bolting quality trad routes. It just isn't going to happen.

 Andrew Wells 15 May 2021
In reply to Mick Ward:

Sorry but this just reads as elitism to me, "unless you're prepared to climb trad and take a risk you aren't really skilled or rock climbing properly." Sport climbing is just as legit as trad, and it will only become more popular over time as more people see it in the olympics and go to gyms and then want to get onto rock. Someone who never does trad, and never wants to do trad, and only does sport, is a legitimate rock climber and is legitimate to want there to be more sport routes, and for existing routes to be retrobolted, and they aren't "losing the joy in climbing" or anything ridiculous like that.

I fully accept that I am here on UKTrad flying the flag for bolted routes and that my view will not be popular, but I do think that someone needs to say in this thread "actually Sport is awesome and in places retrobolting British trad routes would actually be a Good Thing"

35
 deacondeacon 15 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

THIS IS NOT UK TRAD!! it's just a forum where climbers come to talk bollocks (and sometimes to discuss important matters). 

Now, at the risk of appearing elitist I can guarantee that every person who is disagreeing with you on this thread has done more sport climbing than you. 

 ebdon 15 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

Whenever I see posts like yours I can only assume it's a bit of a wind up or from someone very new to climbing. The reality is most keen UK climbers, including many posting on this thread will climb both sport and Trad, I certainly do about 50/50 depending on my mood and the conditions.  It's a total myth there is this pipe smoking hex jangling old guard who hate sport. Its also a myth that sport is always inherently safer, I often find myself looking at bigger run outs and taking bigger falls on sport then I do on many trad routes!

With regard wholesale retrobolting in the uk I think you will find this has actually happened in many venues where it makes sense to do so. For example I was in Cheedale a few weeks ago and some older guys where reminiscing how a 7b used to be an E5 with loads of pegs. It makes total sense to have this as a sport climb and I think shows how we have got the balance pretty good.

 Robert Durran 15 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

> Sorry but this just reads as elitism to me.

What is wrong with elitism? Elitism is absolutely intrinsic to climbing. I really do object to the way the word has been hijacked and co-opted as a derogatory term when it is something that should be valued and cherished.

> Sport climbing is just as legit as trad, and it will only become more popular over time as more people see it in the olympics.

You do realise that The Olympics is pretty much the pinnacle of elitism?

> Actually Sport is awesome......

Yes it is. Absolutely. With the risk element removed I love the way one can concentrate on the difficulty and work one's way up the elitist pyramid of grades.

> .......and in places retrobolting British trad routes would actually be a Good Thing.

Possibly, in a limited and carefully policed way.

Post edited at 10:24
 LakesWinter 15 May 2021

> Sorry but this just reads as elitism to me, "unless you're prepared to climb trad and take a risk you aren't really skilled or rock climbing properly." Sport climbing is just as legit as trad, and it will only become more popular over time as more people see it in the olympics and go to gyms and then want to get onto rock. Someone who never does trad, and never wants to do trad, and only does sport, is a legitimate rock climber and is legitimate to want there to be more sport routes, and for existing routes to be retrobolted, and they aren't "losing the joy in climbing" or anything ridiculous like that.

> I fully accept that I am here on UKTrad flying the flag for bolted routes and that my view will not be popular, but I do think that someone needs to say in this thread "actually Sport is awesome .

Sport as practiced by many normal climbers is just a boring technical exercise that involves zero commitment to anything and hence zero lasting reward. Its like eating Mcdonalds; seems nice at the time but you know deep down you've done something dirty.

So retrobolting trad routes in a race to the zero commitmemt bottom is not the answer. If people dont want to climb trad and accept some level of risk that is fine, there are many other sports and pasttimes out there to try. Going climbing doesnt make you a better person than someone who prefers playing board games or whatever

9
 LakesWinter 15 May 2021
In reply to LakesWinter:

This is not elitist by the way as accepting risk and learning skills is what the activity is. Its like saying rugby is elitist because i am not big enough or fast enough to play well and then demanding the rules are changed just to please me. Its western egocentric nonsense.

1
 john arran 15 May 2021
In reply to S Andrew:

> “Requisite skills” could easily  include safe (and considerate) top-roping.

> I think you overstate people’s reluctance to top-rope. It’s certainly not borne out by my experience in central Scotland. But their Crag manners could sometimes be better.

It isn't a reluctance to top-rope that I was intending to convey, it's an acceptance by other crag users that top-roping can be as valid and responsible use of the crag as trad leading, assuming of course that good practice behaviour is observed (maybe a big assumption but a far from unreasonable goal).

If top-ropers are repeatedly denigrated by other crag users and other climbers on social media, it isn't surprising that they might feel more comfortable at dedicated sport crags, even though they may actually be just as happy on a top-rope as on bolts. My experience in many cases of people on low-grade sport is that once someone has got to the top, everyone else top-ropes it anyway. What really is then the difference between that and an existing trad route?

I just find this to be a pretty artificial division, one that is already causing contention for available resources, and one that in large part may be solvable simply by better facilitating dual-use of routes, each with its own relevant grade.

 Robert Durran 15 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

> Is anybody interested in compromise, or will positions remain entrenched until people take matters into their own hands and conflict escalates?

Realistically, this is probably the most likely course of events!

> I offered a way possible way forward upthread, which would potentially allow both sport and trad climbers to enjoy many of the same routes on the same crags, and the only substantive feedback amounted to 'I don't want top-ropers on 'my' routes'.

I think it is a possible way forward, certainly far preferable to retro-bolting, but would bring its own problems. If people want to top rope on a quiet outcrop in the NW of Scotland, I can't see anyone objecting, but if it becomes the norm for wall-bred climbers in Central Scotland to move outside to top-rope on the limited local crags, I'm not sure there is enough rock to avoid things getting horribly busy and a bit rubbish for everyone. And anyway, are people used to leading indoors really going to want to settle for top-roping outdoors?

 Robert Durran 15 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

>  My experience in many cases of people on low-grade sport is that once someone has got to the top, everyone else top-ropes it anyway. What really is then the difference between that and an existing trad route?

If top-roping is to become acceptable and coexist happily with leading at trad crags, I think top-ropers would have to accept that this sort of monopolising of a route is not acceptable on busy crags; like leading, you should turn up, succeed or fail on the route and move on.

1
 Andrew Wells 15 May 2021
In reply to LakesWinter:

I feel like your comment more reinforces my point about elitism and legitimacy of sport climbing than undermines it, tbh. Basically unless you are taking risks, you aren't climbing. Which is bollocks.

Post edited at 10:42
24
 john arran 15 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> are people used to leading indoors really going to want to settle for top-roping outdoors?

Maybe I'm out of touch, having been to very few walls in recent years, but my perception is that extremely few indoor ascents up to around 6b or so are led. Where are all these people routinely leading grade V routes indoors? Most are on in-situ top-ropes and the climbers who climb them don't seem on the whole to be itching to lead routes instead. As I pointed out just above, when people climbing routes of these grades do go out to sport crags, where they have a choice between leading and top-roping, many - probably a good majority - will choose to climb on a top-rope.

 Robert Durran 15 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

> Maybe I'm out of touch, having been to very few walls in recent years, but my perception is that extremely few indoor ascents up to around 6b or so are led. 

I only climb indoors at Ratho and there are loads of people leading routes at 6b and below (lots in the top-roping area too of course).

 john arran 15 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> If top-roping is to become acceptable and coexist happily with leading at trad crags, I think top-ropers would have to accept that this sort of monopolising of a route is not acceptable on busy crags; like leading, you should turn up, succeed or fail on the route and move on.

Absolutely! But in reality you could say the same about lead attempts. I've witnessed an awful lot of protracted sieges. The problem I see is that crags are much busier than they used to be, accessible ones at least, and therefore all climbers need to be more respectful of others.

 TobyA 15 May 2021
In reply to redjerry:

> This is also true where I live. One rather unpleasant side effect is that some from this group of climbers are now buying drills and doing new routes. 

That's really interesting - but I did click on your profile and see that it looks like you are in the States? I don't want to claim it to be some universal truth, but I haven't heard of that happening where I climb regularly (last 7 years - The Peak District, 14 years before that Southern Finland). In Finland the way it seemed many of the routes go bolted was that people did a course with the Finnish Climbing Association (SKIL) and then could borrow SKIL's drills and also get bolts, glue, and drill bits from them. There were a few instances of crack lines getting bolted (against the wishes of most and the established ethic) but they were very few and far between. That bolting team might not have even have gone through the SKIL route anyway. In the Peak at least at the lower and mid grades it seems to be down mainly to a very small number of very experienced activists (yep - mainly Mr Gibson!) who do it because they like it, and fund it out of their own pocket (or with a little donated to the bolt fund by the likes of me who enjoy the climbs but don't have the experience or equipment to do any bolting myself).

Does anyone know of a case in the UK where relative newbies to the sport have started bolting? Are any of the Scottish cases anything like this? I've always go the impression that the bolting is still generally done by hardened veteran activists who were probably all climbing hard trad and winter for 30 years before they started getting in to sport climbing?

 Robert Durran 15 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

> Absolutely! But in reality you could say the same about lead attempts. I've witnessed an awful lot of protracted sieges. The problem I see is that crags are much busier than they used to be, accessible ones at least, and therefore all climbers need to be more respectful of others.

Yes, agreed, but even with good behaviour, embracing top-roping could well lead to a lot of crags getting too busy to make a visit much fun.

 john arran 15 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Yes, agreed, but even with good behaviour, embracing top-roping could well lead to a lot of crags getting too busy to make a visit much fun.

Well that's where the elitism comes in!

 Mick Ward 15 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

Apologies for the delay in replying. Work (curse of the climbing classes!) got in the way. Other people have given you better replies than I could. But just out of courtesy...

> Sorry but this just reads as elitism to me, "unless you're prepared to climb trad and take a risk you aren't really skilled or rock climbing properly."

I don't know why this quote is in parenthesis. And I don't know what relevance it has for me. I didn't make it. Obviously if you've made it up (I hope you haven't) and ascribed it to me, you're guilty of sophistry. So we wouldn't be off to a good start.

> Sport climbing is just as legit as trad, and it will only become more popular over time as more people see it in the olympics and go to gyms and then want to get onto rock. Someone who never does trad, and never wants to do trad, and only does sport, is a legitimate rock climber and is legitimate to want there to be more sport routes, and for existing routes to be retrobolted, and they aren't "losing the joy in climbing" or anything ridiculous like that.

Interesting that you regard your views as legitimate and (one of) mine as ridiculous. Clearly anybody can say that their view is legitimate and someone else's view is ridiculous. It doesn't really get us too far.

> I fully accept that I am here on UKTrad flying the flag for bolted routes and that my view will not be popular, but I do think that someone needs to say in this thread "actually Sport is awesome and in places retrobolting British trad routes would actually be a Good Thing"

You're not on UKTrad - you're on UKClimbing. Most of us do trad and sport and other stuff (e.g. hillwalking, DWS). As a matter of interest, could you tell us how long you've been climbing and roughly how many sport and trad routes you've done? Might be useful to learn how your views have evolved from your experience.

The problem with climbing is this: it's dangerous. Sport climbers get killed on sport routes. Sport climbers get killed trying to access the crag. People have been killed at climbing walls. If you want to increase your chances of surviving at climbing, you need to develop skills. Someone can say that a skilled person is elitist. Guess what? The rock doesn't care. Given the chance, like Covid, it'll kill you.

I have friends who do virtually no trad. To me, they're climbers, just the same. I have friends who really just like toproping. To me, they're climbers, just the same. But every last one of them knows that climbing is dangerous - because I've drummed it into them. And every last one of them knows that if they're being unsafe or lax or complacent and I'm around, they'll get a bollocking. (Naturally this applies to me equally.) Better a bollocking than an early grave.

Mick

2
 TobyA 15 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

> On the easiest routes I equip, the bolts are rarely much below one's waist when you're able to clip the next one. People often don't want to be above a bolt and would prefer to climb routes where that rarely happens.

I think you are a very kind hearted route equipper!

Due to keeping things local last year and just various other converging factors - I've done more sport climbing over the last 12 months than trad climbing, probably for the first time ever in 30 years of climbing. I've onsighted lots of 6as down the years but never really tried much harder on sport, over the last few years my climbing level had dropped a bit anyway - mainly to do with work stress I guess. So a year ago when the lockdown eased and I started getting out climbing regularly again I found various 5s challenging and was super pleased with myself when I did my first 6a onsight in ages. Now I'm climbing 6a onsight reliably again and really enjoying it, and have onsighted a number of 6a+ and even one 6b! (Yes, I know - try to contain your hero worship everyone! )

But, my real point beyond self congratulations is that central to this has been getting used to climbing above bolts and not freaking out when a possible fall, while by no means huge, would definitely be a good 3 or 4 metres. I haven't actually fallen that many times, but I can definitely say that most of the 5s and low 6s in the Peak seem to require that your feet are above the last bolt before the next one comes into reach. I sport climbed briefly at Swanage last summer and I don't remember it seeming so different. Considering the popularity of places like Horseshoe, I do wonder if perhaps the "virtual toprope" is less of an expectation here? Of course you see many people applying that approach to trad climbs - myself included and nothing wrong with it at all. But I do often think that the risk aspect of easy to mid grade trad is often over blown in discussions like this by "I don't trad at all" types AND "I'm a rufty-toughty old tradster" types!

 JMarkW 15 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

Do u think trad is more dangerous than sport?

 LakesWinter 15 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

> I feel like your comment more reinforces my point about elitism and legitimacy of sport climbing than undermines it, tbh. Basically unless you are taking risks, you aren't climbing. Which is bollocks.

Not at all, there's plenty of trad that is as safe or safer than sport climbing, the key thing is that you climb using your own skills to keep yourself safe more so than clipping a load of bolts. An element of self reliance and responsibility for your own safety is found in trad more than sport. 

I wasnt wishing to undermine your point, just disagreeing with it.

 fred99 16 May 2021
In reply to Andrew Wells:

> Neither is it a human right to say "you can't bolt here" of course, and pointing out either isn't helpful or illuminating.

It is NOT a human right to drill holes in other peoples property and leave bits of ironmongery around without the permission of said property owner.

And the mantra of enjoying the countryside side is basically "take nothing but memories, and leave it as you found it".

Any deviation from this could affect the right (or rather permission !) to access vast tracts of the countryside, so I'm suggesting that bolters don't bugger up the access we currently have.

3
 loz01 16 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

> I've been led to believe there is a proposal to bolt the existing lines of Hot Dog (E3 5c,) Wild Mint (S 4b,) and Glenmarksie Brothers (VS 4c,) and a new line right of Hot Dog at Glenmarksie.

> I was shown a Facebook message where the proposers are looking for feedback to see if the idea is popular amongst some local climbers, I couldn't see any posts contacting the climbing community through UKC so I thought I'd stick one up, what do people think? 

> I was suggested to make a poll but need to be a UKC supporter to do so and have tried to rephrase as a normal post instead.  Glenmarksie Crag

Im not familiar with these routes but if its as it seems it would have to be a B from me. I definitely support the bolting so far though, quite a few teams up there today enjoying a mixture of sport and trad ( 1 team on Wild Mint I think!)

As an aside, I cleaned Deimos and shunted it a few times if anyone's interested. 

Cheers, 

Loz

In reply to S Andrew:

> There is clearly a vociferous minority who feel that the way to achieve an objective is not to acquire the skills, but to insist on making the objective easier (usually by someone else’s effort - 

The number of objectives most people achieve by acquiring the skills  and buying the requisite equipment themselves is quite small.  Most of the time they pay someone else to do it for them.    It's called capitalism and it's quite popular.

7
In reply to john arran:

> > are people used to leading indoors really going to want to settle for top-roping outdoors?

> As I pointed out just above, when people climbing routes of these grades do go out to sport crags, where they have a choice between leading and top-roping, many - probably a good majority - will choose to climb on a top-rope.

What I used to see as a crap indoor climber was the group ended up doing far more top ropes than leads and the leads were mostly at a grade which would have been easy for the climber on top rope.

One of the nice things about top roping in a group is that you don't need to wait so long for your turn because there's no faffing about with ropes between climbs.

5
 S Andrew 17 May 2021

That’s not exactly a glowing testimonial for capitalism you’ve got there.

In reply to S Andrew:

> That’s not exactly a glowing testimonial for capitalism you’ve got there.

If we had to learn every skill we needed ourselves we'd get f*ck all done.

'Oh I need a new computer so I better start by learning semiconductor physics...'

6
 henwardian 17 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

I don't think these routes should be retrobolted. Consider that my vote.

1
 S Andrew 17 May 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Worked for me.

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to jonnie3430:

Just a bit of perspective - I'm a sport climber, although I've nothing against trad, few of my climbing buddies do of it, and there's none in my part of the country, so I've just never really come in to contact with it...

As a consequence I only climb sport, both indoors and out.  Unlike some, I'm good with getting way above the bolt, especially on "sportingly bolted" meandering multipitch, and I love leading stuff at the top of my grade etc.  I love the rush of trying super hard and having to take the whipper when I get pumped out, the rush of being on the edge of my ability and hanging on with the absolute last of my strength.... 

So because of this, Top Roping just does nothing for me.  I'm doing a bit of it at he moment as my other half is pregnant and I'm just not into it at all.  Bloody rope flapping around in my face, pulling me off balance etc.  It's just not the same, and for me personally, it's a poor substitute for sport leads.

It's a good suggestion for compromise but for me, and i suspect many others like me, it's not the solution to our desire for more sport climbing in the uk.

However, I also realise that retro bolting established and popular trad routes is not the answer either!  

What is the answer?  I dunno, but maybe the BMC could stop arguing with itself and try and work to find a solution that satisfies more parties than the status quo...

3
 Mick Ward 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

It's not up to the BMC to come up with a solution. It's up to us to come up with solutions on a case by case basis - best done surely by BMC area meetings where grassroots climbers argue the pros and cons of what should be done on a particular route/crag/area. And it is only fitting that the issues be discussed here as well. 

The arguments about mass bolting have been around since the mid-1990s (Harpur Hill). But clearly, over the last 25 years or so, the climbing demographics have changed significantly. Perhaps ironically, some of the most active bolters would be firmly against wholescale retrobolting and would be prepared to argue vociferously against it.

Mick

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to Mick Ward:

> It's not up to the BMC to come up with a solution. It's up to us to come up with solutions on a case by case basis - best done surely by BMC area meetings where grassroots climbers argue the pros and cons of what should be done on a particular route/crag/area. And it is only fitting that the issues be discussed here as well. 

But that's what happening now and there nowt like enough sport routes to satisfy demand, people are circumventing BMC local area meets and taking bolting matter into their won hands, and all sorts of people's noses are being put out of joint on a regular basis when things get done without agreement (or if they thought they had), routes are getting bolted then chopped etc...

Also there are a lot of climbers who would never dream of going to a BMC meet (myself included), or coming on here (all my friends can't understand why I waste any time with this?).

Maybe you think this is satisfactory?  Personally I think we could do a bit better than this...

Post edited at 15:09
7
In reply to Mick Ward:

Hi Mick, I think there’s a danger of mythologising climbing here. Whilst there are some practitioners pushing the boat out on a regular basis, trad as most generally practiced is on grit, most likely at Stanage Pop, on a HS (according to the stats on UKC) making moves with bomber gear at head height. Actually, not so different to sport. The sanitisation of trad started with modern trad gear rather than the bolt I think.😂

1
 Robert Durran 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> However, I also realise that retro bolting established and popular trad routes is not the answer either!  

> What is the answer? 

A return to cheap flights to Spain as soon as possible probably. We simply don't have the rock in the UK for sport and trad to coexist happily any longer.

Post edited at 15:18
1
 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes, I've climbed way more outdoor sports routes in mainland Europe than I have in the U.K. which is a bit of a strange situation.

Personally, I think there's plenty of rock here in the UK, it's just that anything half decent has been climbed trad at some time over the last hundred odd years and so therefore bolting it is verboden, even if it's not even that good and half grown over and not ever climbed any more, it's still a no.  It's not a lack of rock that's the problem, it's this policy.

You'd think that as one of the BMCs priorities is Climate Crisis, they would prefer their members to have more sport climbing options in the UK and to to therefore be able to fly less?

Post edited at 15:24
13
 Robert Durran 17 May 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> One of the nice things about top roping in a group is that you don't need to wait so long for your turn because there's no faffing about with ropes between climbs.

Setting up a top rope is often a real faff (but maybe you are just talking about indoors which is not really relevant to the discussion).

3
 S Andrew 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> But that's what happening now and there nowt like enough sport routes to satisfy demand

Have you nearly done them all?

3
 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to S Andrew:

Yes I've climbed every single sport route in the uk in my slippers.

Post edited at 16:05
4
 DaveHK 17 May 2021
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> The sanitisation of trad started with modern trad gear rather than the bolt I think.😂

I thought it started with all those preplaced pegs on routes in the 60s-90s.  

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

Nylon rope and harnesses I reckon...

 john arran 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

Thank you for sharing your view. I would agree that you aren't typical of most non-trad climbers - certainly not those climbing in the lower grades.

One thing I would say though, is that if you do find the "bloody rope flapping around in my face, pulling me off balance etc." in future, you really should have a word with your belayer, because both of those things are almost always avoidable.

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

No worries, thanks for your reply.

Yeah we're a bit out of practice top rope belaying, have barely done any of it in the last 5 years or so, so I'm always asking for a bit more slack (or a bit less when she's forgotten to start taking at the start!)  She's due next month so likes a tight rope now...

 ebdon 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

Genuine question, I'm not trying being snarky, in you're ideall picture of uk climbing what crags would you bolt? 

From my perspective apart from possibly scotland I'm struggling to think of a climbing area where theres not some quality sports climbing, I suppose Northumberland but 10m sandstone routes would make crap sports climbs. I concede their rarely as good as you get in Europe but that's a function of geology and climate!

 TobyA 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> and there's none in my part of the country, so I've just never really come in to contact with it...

If you are still in London, as your profile says, it not like there is any sport climbing either!

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to ebdon:

That's a fair question, I'm not in any way informed enough to pick individual crags that I'd bolt however with regards to areas...

For all the rock it has The Lake District has next to no sport, Cornwall, Wales (outside of the A55 Sport and slate), there's not a bolt in all of NI I don't think, Northumbria as you mentioned, parts of Scotland etc.

I'd guess that there's the odd currently unloved and neglected trad crag in these areas that currently only yield some rarely climbed necky trad routes that would be suitable for conversion into sport venues but I'm not naïve enough to think that there's any likelihood of that happening any time soon!

10
 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to TobyA:

Indeed I am.

Like many London based climbers it's mostly climbing at the wall, with the odd trip away to Europe or Portland/Swanage. 

The switch from indoor to outdoor sport is less stark than from indoor to trad!

3
In reply to Robert Durran:

> A return to cheap flights to Spain as soon as possible probably. We simply don't have the rock in the UK for sport and trad to coexist happily any longer.

In Edinburgh there's actually plenty of rock - Salisbury Crags and a couple of smaller crags in Holyrood Park - it is just banned from climbing.  I blame the queen. 

Post edited at 18:27
1
 Jon Read 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

A scrappy overgrown trad crag is not going to turn into an amazing Euro-style sport venue, no matter how much wishing thinking is applied.

1
 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to Jon Read:

Not sure where I said it would?  

It'd turn from a crappy trad venue into a crappy sport venue, but it'd certainly get a lot more traffic...

4
 ebdon 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

Cornwall I will give you, there is a load of quality climbing on limestone in N wales and the lakes though. (Uneless we are talking low grades only, I've lost track) a new sport specific guides just come out for the lakes. I was pondering this question for the peak on my way home and struggled to come up with many suitable venues were access wasnt an issue.

I guess my point sort of i think was we are where we are in the UK as it sort of make sense with regard both the rock we have available (often heavily featured so equipers will climb trad rather than spend tones of cash boting cracks) and acess to it (often not as simple as people realise). I think many climbers just coming outdoors for the first time think the lack (or perceived lack) is due to hairy BMC types ruining there fun when in fact it may be there isnt the rock to bolt. I cant see the NT agreeing to bolting in the lakland fells. Recent chopping of bolts in the peak was 100% access rather than trad conflict. 

 TobyA 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

So you've not come up northwards a bit, to sample the delights of, say, Upper Tier of Goddard's Quarry yet? 😆

 DaveHK 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> It'd turn from a crappy trad venue into a crappy sport venue, but it'd certainly get a lot more traffic...

​​​​​Until the novelty wears off. Which in the case of Glenmarksie is probably one visit, that being how long it takes most people to realise/remember how bad the ticks are.

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to ebdon:

Yeah I was largely thinking about mid to low grades, apologies for not saying this at the outset at the outset...  Like you I think I've lost track a bit! 

Interested to see the sport specific guide for the lakes - this is the first I've heard of this!  I have a guidebook for the Lakes and other than Bam Crag and St Bees and one other steep crag that I've forgotten the name of, I don't think there's any sport in it at all.  Love that part of the country so this comes as positive news indeed.

Yes I do agree that climbing in the UK is a product of our environment - take a drive in Mallorca, Sardinia or the Costa Blanca and you'll miles and miles of amazing limestone faces we just don't have the same geology here. 

However, despite our relative lack of decent rock we do have a long and proud history of mountaineering and rock climbing, more so than some places on the continent that have more rock, so this means that anything that is half way decent probably been climbed long before sport climbing even existed.  Perhaps if historically we'd been less interested in climbing on the limited rock we have there would be more sport routes in the U.K today?

Here's a question (and like you, I'm not being snarky!) - Why would the NT not agree to bolting on Lakeland fells?  The Lakes is an area of great beauty, tradition and history but it's been made that way through centuries of deforestation and then hill farming, it's already an environment that has been manipulated to look that way by humans. 

How would some bolts on a few crags that you can only see when you're right on top of them spoil the place for the masses?  Most casual passers by wouldn't even notice them... 

9
 ebdon 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

Well I cant speak for the NT! I have no problems with bolts from an environmental perspective (allthough I have no expertise in this area).  The NT seem very anti bolting however, I agree with them mind for Lakeland fells not generally), but I suspect for very different reasons. 

A surprising amount of UK climbing is on private land with dodgy access. Trad can stealthily sneak under the radar but sport cannot.

Post edited at 19:14
 Robert Durran 17 May 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> In Edinburgh there's actually plenty of rock - Salisbury Crags and a couple of smaller crags in Holyrood Park - it is just banned from climbing.  I blame the queen. 

Well, if you can guarantee that it will be developed into a Scottish Ceuse once we chuck out the rich Tory royal English bastards and establish the People's Democratic Socialist Republic of Scotland, I'm in

2
 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to TobyA:

I haven't even been to Horseshoe Quarry

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to ebdon:

> A surprising amount of UK climbing is on private land with dodgy access. Trad can stealthily sneak under the radar but sport cannot.

That's a good point that....

However the access point is an interesting one.  Further up thread Mick was telling me that that this isn't the BMC's responsibility and you're telling me a barrier is access.

Seeing as access is one of the BMC's core goals, does this not move it back into their ballpark? 

Post edited at 19:21
2
 ebdon 17 May 2021
In reply to ebdon:

Thinking about this some more I don't think there is more trad in the uk as it was there first. For many uk crags trad just makes more sense. Most bolters wont spend the time effort and money bolting cracks and well featured rock where a couple of nuts and cans would do. I think there Is a lot of mythos around trad whitch is unfounded as proven by many euro wads coming over hear grabbing some nuts and getting on some hard test pieces. I suppose this is where you and I will always disagree it's not that I'm anti bolt, I love all climbing disciplines, I just think bolting rock that gives good trad climbing makes absolutely sense.  It's not that trad is inherently better it's just better for certain climbing styles and rock types which we have in abundance. 

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to ebdon:

We're probably both right to an extent... I can certainly think of more than a few examples of routes that have been bolted and then chopped, or not bolted at all as the FA objected to it, but then these cases are probably rarer than I imagine and likewise, there probably wouldn't be as many sport routes as I imagine had we not had the history.

I suspect these are both contributory factors, rather than the reason, and that there are several others too.

But things do change and certainly the amount and profile and desires of climbers has changed, even over the relatively short time I've been climbing.  Who knows if this will this have an effect on how we manage our limited amount of rock in the future? 

What's for sure is the debate will continue, but I hope this doesn't lead to friction between different factions of climbers, nor to any kind of schism in the BMC or wider climbing community.

I know many on here might not like me, or my ilk, or welcome my thoughts and opinions on these matters but I am here, and I'm engaging, and contributing and listening.  Like I said earlier a lot of climbers cast in the same mould wouldn't dream of engaging in these debates and there's an increasing amount of them.

Post edited at 20:02
 ebdon 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

My take on this.... and it could be rubbish ... I've heard calls from beginner climbers for more low grade sport since I started climbing regularly 15 years ago, however bolts don't place themselves and I think by the time people get skilled and motivated to start equipping new routes they realise, on the whole, retroing trad doent really make sense. So its sort of self limiting.

 Robert Durran 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> I love leading stuff at the top of my grade etc.  I love the rush of trying super hard and having to take the whipper when I get pumped out, the rush of being on the edge of my ability and hanging on with the absolute last of my strength.... 

> So because of this, Top Roping just does nothing for me.

I was thinking that John Arran maybe had a point that one might as well just top rope as lead sport climbs and that our attachment to leading them might just be a hangover from its evolution from trad where obviously leading is what it is all about, so it is reassuring to hear that a sport climber with no background in trad at all values the same things in leading sport as I do.

 Mick Ward 17 May 2021
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> The sanitisation of trad started with modern trad gear rather than the bolt I think.😂

Hi Paul, I suspect the sanitisation of climbing started with cams. Originally what were there - three sizes? Most people could only afford one or two cams. A pair of climbers might have four - in only a few sizes.

Often you need skill (and patience) to place a hex well. Less so with a wire. Virtually no skill or patience needed to ram a cam in (although is it placed well?)

I've shuddered watching folk wobble up Hargreaves with horribly placed big hexes, shoved in, in extremis. Now I'm guessing you can shove cams in everywhere - and, I'm sure folk do. They certainly do on Right Unconquerable. And Calvary? I saw a Youtube video of someone camming his way up Tippler Direct, dropping onto the cams in that flake, treating it as a sport route (until the flake snaps), thinking it was all a big joke.

My argument in the Harpur Hill debacle was exactly that: climbing was in danger of being sanitised and bolts were no more than a technology of sanitisation.

But it's where we are now that concerns me most. I've always been in favour of co-existence. And, for 25 years, it's worked reasonably well. (Yes, I accept there are exceptions.)

Mick

1
 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to ebdon:

No, I think that you could be onto something there...

I've got a bit of a theory that people most climbers just don't want to equip low grade routes as they won't get the same kudos and respect as they will from equipping, you have to be a true altruist to want to equip lower grade stuff just for beginners enjoyment...

1
 Mick Ward 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp

> Personally, I think there's plenty of rock here in the UK, it's just that anything half decent has been climbed trad at some time over the last hundred odd years...

Perhaps we should take a walk around Portland together and I'll show you dozens of lines I've done which were never climbed as trad (for very good reason). Of course you may not feel that any of them are half-decent...

Mick

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Glad to be able to give some perspective!  Though it must be noted that I might be a bit weird

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to Mick Ward:

I'd love to take a walk round Portland with you!

I've often wondered why so much of Portland was never climbed trad?  Perhaps as the rock doesn't give good gear placements?

 Mick Ward 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> But that's what happening now and there nowt like enough sport routes to satisfy demand, people are circumventing BMC local area meets and taking bolting matter into their won hands, and all sorts of people's noses are being put out of joint on a regular basis when things get done without agreement (or if they thought they had), routes are getting bolted then chopped etc...

> Also there are a lot of climbers who would never dream of going to a BMC meet (myself included), or coming on here (all my friends can't understand why I waste any time with this?).

> Maybe you think this is satisfactory?  Personally I think we could do a bit better than this...

I'll be polite and take your last question as rhetorical. Otherwise you'd be putting opinions in my mouth, wouldn't you?

You think we would do a bit better than this but... you can't be arsed going to a BMC meet? I'm sorry - that says it all.

Mick

2
 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to Mick Ward:

Look at the responses I get on here (yours included), how do you think that would feel in person?  Not sure I could deal with it Mick.  I know I talk a lot, but I also suffer from anxiety issues that can sometimes be triggered by certain social conditions, after counselling and all of that and am happy to say that I'm keeping things under control, but I avoid certain situations that I know might make me relapse.

Now I'll be polite and suggest you should take people's individual circumstances into account before you decide the reason they're not doing something is because they can't be arsed.

Post edited at 20:36
8
 Skiddly1987 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> After all, of some kid has learnt to climb at the wall (as I and many other do these days) and is learning on real rock, it's really going to help them if there some low grade sport to learn on...

Where does this misconception come from that you can only learn to climb outside on sport? There’s absolutely no reason indoor climbers can’t go straight on to learning trad. Of course there’s more to learn but there seems to be some idea, especially amongst newer climbers I think, that they have to do sport before they can go near trad. 

Instead of asking experienced climbers to go and drill holes for them in other peoples hobbies (which is effectively what’s happening) if people who are starting outdoors want to climb in these wilder areas, perhaps asking experienced climbers to show them how to climb these routes might be better. I’m sure there are plenty who would happily help beginners from indoors on the trad path if they were asked. It would certainly take a lot less time, effort and forum space than constantly trying to bolt everything. 

The argument that we need loads of low grade sport because of the increase in indoor climbing is rubbish, why can’t people learn to climb outside on low grade trad? I get that people think they can’t because of cost, gear, partners etc and the stereotype that trad is full of old miserable gits but the reality is nothing like that. As has been pointed out numerous times most people enjoy both as much as each other and the majority of people I see out on my (admittedly more limited than I’d like) climbing days are anything but old. 

Not sure where I’m going with this really but basically if you’re an indoor climber, and you want to climb outside, don’t feel like you HAVE to go to sport first. You can do whatever discipline you like as long as you’re safe,  you’re enjoying it and you’re not stopping other people enjoying it.

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to Skiddly1987:

I agree with all of that, you’re not wrong in any of it.

The only reason I went down the sport route was that that’s what all the other people I met at the wall did.  Had they all been keen trad climbers I’m sure I would have learnt trad instead...

 Martin Haworth 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> But that's what happening now and there nowt like enough sport routes to satisfy demand, people are circumventing BMC local area meets and taking bolting matter into their won hands, and all sorts of people's noses are being put out of joint on a regular basis when things get done without agreement (or if they thought they had), routes are getting bolted then chopped etc...

> Also there are a lot of climbers who would never dream of going to a BMC meet (myself included), or coming on here (all my friends can't understand why I waste any time with this?).

> Maybe you think this is satisfactory?  Personally I think we could do a bit better than this...

Although you seem to have collected a few dislikes for this post, I think you are correct. As long as there is no recognised set of guidelines then anarchy will prevail. Anyone who says that there is already a protocol, well if there is it’s not working/not being followed. Sport crags are probably the most popular crags in the country, and the demand is growing. Traditionists may not like it, I may not like it, but it’s the direction of travel. 
I think there should be a set of strict guidelines, voted for by BMC members/Climbers, and administered by the BMC. We will probably need to accept more crags being bolted in the future for it to work. Call it a compromise.

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Thanks Martin. I think you put what I was trying to say much more clearly and succinctly than I ever could!

 Mick Ward 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

I'm sorry about your anxiety issues but... all those other climbers you say won't go to BMC meetings? Do they all suffer from anxiety issues too?

I'm not the kind of guy who gets a kick out of going to BMC meetings or any other kind of meeting. But sometimes needs must. As it happens, of the not very many (six??) that I've been to, most have been pretty amiable. But I can remember one particular meeting that promised to be a metaphorical (and maybe literal) bloodbath. 30 years of history (enmity) lurking behind a particular issue. Both participants had assured me that they'd f*cking kill the other. One is just big; the other's huge. I liked both of them (one was a mate). On the night of the meeting, I'd gone down with something really bad (food poisoning?) Going there was the last thing I wanted to do. But I made myself do it. Had to stop the car a couple of times to throw up. But I went. I made the commitment. And ultimately, in life, what matters most is commitment.

As it happened, to everyone's amazement, peace broke out. They shook hands. I held their other hands (ridiculous, I know). Them shaking hands mattered more to me than any route I've ever done.

If you want a wander around Portland, message me. I promise you I won't give you a hard time.

All best wishes,

Mick

 Iamgregp 17 May 2021
In reply to Mick Ward:

No sweat, you weren’t to know I’m a bit funny in some situations (even some people who know me quite well don’t know I suffer from these issues from time to time) and like you say, I suspect apathy or lack of commitment is the more common reason for non attendance.

Would love to give you a shout in Portland when I’m next around, but with the little one due in a month I suspect that may not be for a while!

Post edited at 21:40
 TobyA 17 May 2021
In reply to Martin Haworth:

>  Sport crags are probably the most popular crags in the country, and the demand is growing.

From living on the edge of and climbing regularly in the Peak District, I'm not sure that's true. Yes, Horseshoe can get quite busy but not really like a busy day on Stanage, whilst the other sport crags in Middleton Dale still seem to be reasonably quiet despite being just a few hundred metres from Horseshoe.

In what way do you see this growing demand for more sport climbing? Surely if people wanted more sport climbing the most obvious way would be to give money to local bolt funds for the activists who are bolting new stuff. Have bolt funds seen a big increase in donations?

>  We will probably need to accept more crags being bolted in the future for it to work. 

There doesn't seem to be much push to retro bolt trad routes, particularly not whole trad crags, at least around here. Maybe the Yorkshire Dales is different?

 Martin Haworth 17 May 2021
In reply to TobyA: Toby, I suppose my view is based on anecdotal evidence. I agree that Stanage is popular, lots of people climbing classic routes, a lot of boulderers and also some top ropers.

In Middleton Dale, Horseshoe is always busy, Horsethief is popular, Stoney West increasingly busy. You go to Stoney and the trad routes are deserted but the sport climbs have 2 or 3 teams on them.

Maybe I am overstating the popularity of sport venues, but they certainly have a rapidly increasing popularity, much more so than say trad limestone.

The sectors of outdoor climbing that are really growing in the UK are easier sport climbing and bouldering.

 Skiddly1987 17 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

That’s cool dude, if that’s what you enjoy then that’s all that ultimately matters, everyone’s path is right for them. Not meant to be a rant at you personally at all, more just an observation on something I hear said a lot. 
 

There’s room for everyone, I just think that if people want to climb in more adventurous settings etc, why not just give trad a try. And if anyone who wants to give it a try thinks they can’t/don’t climb hard enough/haven’t enough sport experience to give it a try, they should know that none of that needs to matter. 

 Toerag 18 May 2021
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> The sectors of outdoor climbing that are really growing in the UK are easier sport climbing and bouldering.

That's because the majority of new climbers (of which there are many more than old climbers) learnt on walls and simply want to carry on doing what they do indoors, outdoors. 99% of kids first taste of climbing is on an indoor wall. Children's birthday party top-roping at Stanage? Nope, children's birthday party at the Foundry. Climbing on a scout night? Winter activity at the local wall, not summer at Stanage.

 Toerag 18 May 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

>  the part of the crag where the low grade sport routes are has been there but (as I understand it) buried under earth and foliage since the beginning of time, at some point someone could have unearthed them and put up trad routes, but nobody bothered, presumably as the routes it yielded would have not justified the effort (and given the low grades the sport routes now there, they'd be right) but such is the clamour for low grade sport routes somebody though this a worthwhile endeavour.  

I suspect it's more a case of people being bored in lockdown and clearing routes as part of their exercise.

 Michael Gordon 18 May 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

> ​​​​​Until the novelty wears off. Which in the case of Glenmarksie is probably one visit, that being how long it takes most people to realise/remember how bad the ticks are.

Even before the bracken gets up?

 DaveHK 18 May 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Even before the bracken gets up?

I heard about someone who got bitten there in December and contracted Lyme.

 finc00 20 May 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

I knocked 3 off and had one bite... at the end of March

 Michael Gordon 21 May 2021
In reply to finc00:

Hmmm, OK yes it does sound as though they can be a pest even without the bracken.


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