Parking Madness in Snowdonia

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 Offwidth 21 Apr 2019

Just back from a lovely weeks climbing in Snowdonia. Unsurprisingly many other people decided to enjoy the hills in this astounding weather, on a bank holiday weekend.  Unfortunately way too many of them decided to partly block the roads out to quite a distance from the full normal parking areas.  Several roads were reduced to chaos as busy traffic faced roads reduced to one lane. Earlier today, on the partly blocked bends just north of Ogwen Cottage we watched an ambulance struggle to get through. Several locals said it's the worse they had ever seen things. What is to be done??  Reputably only cars partly blocking roads near Pen y Pass were ticketed.

In contrast the excellent public bar in Plas y Brenin was quieter than normal!?

 Mark Stevenson 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Traffic similarly dreadful in the Lakes. Keswick routinely gridlocked over the weekend and a horrible accident on the Borrowdale road yesterday when motorcyclist took out a pedestrian.

At least yesterday, all those parking on the grass at the South end of Keswick trying to avoid the double yellow lines on the road did get ticketed en masse.

In a related development, parking charges seem to now be being enforced at the Miller's Dale car park by the Peak District National Park. I don't know but I guess this might also be the case at their other pay and display car parks in the Peak.

 GridNorth 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

What is to be done?? 

We could try abandoning the concept of Bank Holidays.

 HardenClimber 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Same in the Dales...Later CRO posted that they'd taken ages to get through this in a blue lighrt ambulance..

(and the Falls will be boring with the low water...)

https://www.facebook.com/NorthYorkshireWeatherUpdates/videos/31189813615103...

 Flinticus 21 Apr 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

Great idea. This mass time off floods the places people want to go. 

Myself, I took Thursday off to go walking and camping, driving home Friday, just to avoid the worse of the traffic and crowds.

Having said that Glasgow is lovely and quiet now!

1
 deacondeacon 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Langdale seemed pretty quiet. No one parking like dicks and the car parks all had spaces. 

Crags were pretty quiet too. 

 Big Steve 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Ive just got back from Snowdonia too, I have never seen the A5 so busy with cars, it was crazy. Not only parking but the speeding and overtaking too.

16:30 on Saturday I popped in to Betwys y Coed to get some supplies, thinking 16:30 wont be too bad but no, it was chaos. I definitely will not be going back on any bank holiday weekend

 jon 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

I drove through N Wales on my way to Ireland last summer. It was the first time I'd been to Wales in 28 years, and I was blown away by this. Particularly memorable was the road down the Gwynant. Chaos indeed.

 Derry 21 Apr 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

> What is to be done?? 

> We could try abandoning the concept of Bank Holidays.

I'd second that. Where I work it's absolute hell. I have no idea why people think its a good idea to try and get away and 'relax' at the same time as 20 million other people. Stress levels go through the roof.

Every August Bank Holiday I pray for rain. 

3
 GridNorth 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Derry:

> Every August Bank Holiday I pray for rain. 

That's a bit selfish I simply stay home.

 MG 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

> What is to be done??  

Quota? It's used in some Italian valleys. Once a certain number of cars is reached, its one out before another in. Easier with a dead-end, of course. 

 Mark Eddy 21 Apr 2019
In reply to deacondeacon:

When I turned up at the ODG at 9.30am I took the last parking space at that time. Don't know why the NT didn't open up their field! Raven crag was absolutely rammed, we queued for some routes. No doubt the higher crags were a bit quieter though.

Roadside / verge parking is fast becoming a problem in the Lakes, with verges getting trashed and roads partially blocked.

Loads more 'wild' campers by the roadsides and people overnighting in vans now too. A few here and there is one thing, but the way it's going seems unsustainable

1
 SouthernSteve 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

A picture of the top of Snowdon!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48004374

1
 wintertree 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Is this a good place to mention the weekend warriors tearing through our 30 mph village at > 60 mph including dodgy overtakes?

Driving back from Stanhope on Friday was like Russian roulette with both motorbikes and cars.

 Welsh Kate 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

It's been the same in the Beacons, crazy around Pont ar Daf. Our Good Friday MR callout was mid afternoon so most of us were able to find a parking spot not too far from the rv, but the day will come when there's a delay in getting a response because of the jams.

In reply to Welsh Kate:

Never seen it so busy in the 12 years I have lived in South Pembrokeshire. I guess a combination of a late Easter (4 day weekend) and a really good forecast, the first really nice weekend of the year. 

I'm sure it will be a lot quieter by Tuesday, with the end of the holiday and cooler weather forecast.

 Donotello 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

‘The Outdoors’ is the new thing now. Everyone wants that shot atop Pen Y Fan or Snowdon for their instagram. We went to Pen Y Fan last weekend at 6pm and there were still a few cars on the verge 200m from the car park showing how busy the day must have been. 

Honestly though this weekend everything that exists that has the potential to be busy has been busier than I can remember. Perhaps everyone’s just been fed up with the bad weather and finally boom everyone outside. 

Managed to disappear into the mendips for some ancient forest walking and encountered absolutely nobody. The Mendips doesn’t get you enough attention on Instagram it seems. Yet. 

Post edited at 23:48
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 profitofdoom 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Big Steve:

> Ive just got back from Snowdonia too, I have never seen the A5 so busy with cars, it was crazy. Not only parking but the speeding and overtaking too...... it was chaos. I definitely will not be going back on any bank holiday weekend

Too right Steve. It might sound odd but I stay AT HOME Bank Holidays. It's great

 Joak 22 Apr 2019
In reply to profitofdoom:

> Too right Steve. It might sound odd but I stay AT HOME Bank Holidays. It's great

Not odd, just sound. I went for a walk along the Aonach Eagach ridge on Wednesday. Only met one other person car to car, coming the other way. I too patiently sat out the #ank holiday weekend AT HOME, relaxing, catching some rays and sinking a few drams. I'll be back out on Tuesday when normal service will be resumed.     

 Wiley Coyote2 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

We could always stop promoting the outdoors. There seems little sense in outfits like the BMC pushing how great it is and  running courses  to get people involved and then whining when they turn up.

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 1234None 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Every time I return to the UK I remark on how busy and chaotic the roads are....almost everywhere.  We came back at Christmas by car and drove up to the NW from Dover on 27th December.  I think we spent most of the way in traffic jams.   As for the BH problem specifically: Big population, small island...combined with national parks being surrounded by cities with large populations. It's never far to drive to somewhere nice and everyone wants to go somewhere nice when the weather is good and they have time off work.  I am not sure much can be done really....

Post edited at 06:30
 summo 22 Apr 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

> What is to be done?? 

> We could try abandoning the concept of Bank Holidays.

Probably also ties in with no term time kids holidays. 

 deacondeacon 22 Apr 2019

"I wish no one would go to Nice places so that when I go to Nice places I'm the only person there..." 

Climbed at Pavey Ark yesterday and the crag was pretty quiet, a few teams but no queuing for routes. As expected the walk in was busy with people going up to the tarn but seriously I think it's great that so many people are getting out and not spending a bank holiday in a shopping centre. 

I must agree though, people that park like dicks should have slurry sprayed all over their cars  

1
 Fruitbat 22 Apr 2019
In reply to SouthernSteve:

> A picture of the top of Snowdon!

Come on, get it right! That's Mount Snowdon dontcha know, I would have thought everyone on here would know that. 

Back to the main story, the volume of cars was exceptional these last few days. I was on the A5 on Thu afternoon and even then there was parking from the tea-shack layby to way down the bends. A friend was out on Sat and said there was parking on both sides between the tea-shack and Tryfan, with the lower section I mentioned now stretching almost to the caravan-park at Bethesda - I think the only reason the other side (Carneddau side) of this stretch wasn't used is that the police had put cones on it.

Anyway, those are the facts, what can or should be done? Most of the causes have been mentioned in this thread (BH, schools off, good weather etc), I think the main causes being population, car-based culture and, as Donny M said, The Great Outdoors (TM). All are intertwined. 

I did intend to write a long spiel about this but have other things to do (which is not whizzing up Ogwen to get that last parking space). Anyway, I don't think there are any easy answers or quick fixes such as making that section of the A5 a clearway: I'm sure it was on here that I read that some of those who get ticketed in Nant Gwynant just share the fine between the carload and see it as part of the cost of the weekend. I guess that £60 (or whatever the fine is) between 3 or 4 is cheap parking compared to London Village* or similar. 

* (C)1997 Mark and Lard.

Post edited at 08:09
 Michael Hood 22 Apr 2019
In reply to SouthernSteve:

Please, it's Mount Snowden, the BBC says so

OP Offwidth 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

The latest active lives survey showed 2.8 million people in the UK  involved in hill and mountain walking and 315,000 in climbing and bouldering. The BMC has about 86,000 members. I doubt more than a few of those so badly parked at the weekend were BMC members. If miserable gits like you could ever be more positive about organisations that try to make a positive difference and encourage people to join such organisations who highlight problems and encourage responsibility in participation (instead of Trump style fake news sniping) that might be a small positive step in the right direction.

16
 timjones 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

> . Several locals said it's the worse they had ever seen things. What is to be done?? 

Spread the load by getting rid of bank holidays and adding the days onto annual holiday allowances.

 Sean Kelly 22 Apr 2019
In reply to SouthernSteve:

> A picture of the top of Snowdon!

Getting as  busy as Everest these days!

 toad 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

This should have been the first couple of weeks of Brexit. Anumber of  people are out in the uk because of this. I'm out with the narrow boat in wales and ive heard this a few times now from hire boats

 SouthernSteve 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Michael Hood:

Please - we all SO non-PC it's really Yr Wyddfa. Diolch

 SouthernSteve 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I bet the northern Carneddau, the Rhinogs and even Cadair Idris were empty enough for a bit of peace - a day like that on Snowdon becomes a physical activity with/or without company, but rarely provides a mountain atmosphere. I have been up Crib Goch just as the sun is coming up on such weekends - recommended.

Off topic, we bought some books a few years ago which described minor hills in the Lakes - this has been a good guide for bank holidays and has served us well.

 Wiley Coyote2 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

>If miserable gits like you .......

I prefer 'logical gits' Areas like Snowdonia and the Lake District are increasingly frequently bombed out with people  and the complaints flood in from locals and visitors alike (that would be you btw). Yet we still keep pouring petrol on the fire by urging more people to go there. For example, my twitter feed this month has been bombarded  with posts from something called 'Discover National Parks'. Tourist Boards spend millions every year luring visitors to these already overcrowded areas and the BMC  does its bit with a policy of increasing participation in outdoor activities. And then people (that would be you again btw) get all huffy and talk about 'Parking madness' when folk actually turn up, overwhelm the facilities  but having driven all that way decide to stay anyway,  dump their vehicles at the roadside and cause problems What do you expect them to do? Shrug and  go back to Wigan and Walsall? And don't expect them to spread out to less spectacular areas. They have been promised  Wasdale and Tryfan and that's where they are damned well going to go, parking spaces or no parking spaces!

As the varied suggestions on here already show, this is a problem that will require a multi-faceted solution - if there even is one - but relentlessly promoting visiting these areas will not be part of it

 oldie 22 Apr 2019
In reply to 1234None:

We're unlikely to get rid several factors including Bank Holidays, people wanting to get out especially if weather good, and going abroad becoming less affordable. The most obvious option is still better public transport which would have to be frequent, often shuttle services, extend into evenings, affordable, usable for park and ride. Also must be flexible with the national parks/councils etc being able to licence extra minibuses and buses to operate when called on with set fares (possibly guaranteeing sufficient fare income). Not easy but possibly more environmentally friendly.
I suppose in the future google cars could drop off their owners and be called back when required.

OP Offwidth 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

The BMC has only recently had any policy to increase participation and always in clearly responsible ways. Only a small fraction of these people in the mountains are anything to do with the BMC (from the stats about 3%) and the education and access efforts of the organisation are very much part of any possible multi-faceted solutions. Blaming the BMC is like blaming a flooding problem on those attempting to alleviate drainage problems knowing the rain will come.

2
baron 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

We were in Ogwen a few weeks ago.

There were plenty of empty spaces in the car park but people were still parked on the pavements.

I presume to avoid paying the parking charges.

Many years ago the police went through a phase of issuing tickets to those parked on the pavement but I’m not sure that it’s their responsibility anymore.

We gave up going anywhere on bank holidays 20 years ago after a congested, miserable weekend in the Lakes

 heleno 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

We went to Windgather yesterday to keep a couple of older friends company, expecting it to be horribly busy. 

It turned out to be a really nice atmosphere, lots of families out, no need to queue for routes — and a refreshing lack of too-roping groups and instructors! 

 geordiepie 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

'National parks in Bank Holiday traffic shocker'

Of course it was busy, go somewhere else if you want to avoid the crowds and bad parking. Simply being there makes you a part of the problem even if your parking is impecible.

OP Offwidth 22 Apr 2019
In reply to SouthernSteve:

We climbed a lot from our campsite so didn't need to move the car. It was noticable that despite the crowds and excellent weather even the East face of Tryfan was quieter than normal. The VD classics only had the usual queues and there were only three pairs on Munich and a few scamblers. As ever with us we climbed stuff up there no one else seems to bother with  Bastow Buttress (180m of great fun on pristine rock but more like S 4a  for the first pitch) and what we thought was South Rib (the far left series of ribs on the face that gave 160m of afternoon fun that remained in the sun at about VD 4a.

Bastow Buttress (VD)

South Rib (M)

Post edited at 10:13
Northern Star 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Not sure what the big issue is?  Chaos on a sunny bank holiday is always to be expected and it was nice to see so many people out enjoying the mountains.  We drove through the congested parts on our way in and out and it was a mild inconvenience at most.  It is only a few days a year it is like this anyway.

Despite the hoards on Sunday we were able to find almost complete peace and solitude scrambling and climbing only 100m or so away from one of the most busy tourist paths.  It would seem that 90% of all visitors tend to keep to the same few well trodden and popular paths.

That said (Nant Peris park and ride excepted), public transport around the main parts of Snowdonia is shockingly inconvenient so you can't blame people for using their cars.  Perhaps in the absence of providing a bus service that is fit for purpose, the council could extend the A5 layby parking much like they have below Tryfan Bach.  There would be little visual impact in doing this and they would alleviate any issues people have.

Post edited at 10:03
 Derry 22 Apr 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

ha, I'd stay at home too if I didn't have to work. 

 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2019
In reply to toad:

I suspect this is close to the truth.

I didn’t enter Paris marathon last week and decided on Milton Keynes next week instead. Getting to the start of a marathon relaxed (or any holiday) is quite a high priority. Not knowing what situations you’re likely to encounter travelling ‘unnecessarily’ in Europe wasn’t likely to be conducive to booking a European holiday far in advance for this month. 

Would be interesting to hear from travel agents how many cheap last minute holidays in Europe have been up for grabs compared to usual. 

I had to work on a Saturday anyway so my weekend has been spent with family and do things locally. I’ve been caught out before ‘popping up to Edale’ for the May bank holiday and finding campsites full. 

Post edited at 10:12
OP Offwidth 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

Dangerous parking isn't a problem for you?

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 PATTISON Bill 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Wasdale crammed ,photos on Gosforth and Seascale matters.

Post edited at 10:21
 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Parkingwise I think there needs to be an area set aside for parking a fair way away from Snowdon and make the whole area a parking free area except for certain pre-applied permits (disabled people etc) between certain times. 

Then an included bus ticket for all car occupants who park in this area. A fleet of busses every 15 minutes doing a complete circuit of the mountain from dawn to dusk. 

I suspect there are a fair few people who don’t actually set foot on the mountain, they just park up and eat their sandwiches sitting in the car listening to the radio while the kids stare at their phones.

Post edited at 10:18
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 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2019
In reply to oldie:

or maybe a fleet of Uber cars? 

1
 planetmarshall 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Every bank holiday people complain about the traffic, the queues, how busy places are. Thing is, if you're in one of the honeypots - you're part of the problem. It's only busy because you're there.

Northern Star 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

> Dangerous parking isn't a problem for you?

How was it dangerous?  Mildly inconvenient perhaps but dangerous no, not if you drive to conditions and make allowances accordingly.

8
OP Offwidth 22 Apr 2019
In reply to geordiepie:

The main problem for me was the dangerous parking... far worse than locals said they had seen ever before on a bank holiday. As discussed above the combination of weather and Brexit making planning for the continent more difficult might have done it.  I have no issues with the park being busy. Being there does not make you 'part of the problem' if you are not causing any problem. We were there for a week and ate out most evenings and some breakfasts and lunchtimes and the local venues we visit were always pleased to see us and we never had to wait for seats. A big up in particular is due to the Plas Y Brenin  and Moel Siabod Cafe staff and a real treat we just missed was 'Tapas Tuesday' lunch in the Caffi Caban Cafe (superb place at the end of the lake just NE of Llanberis )

Someone above suggested Ogwen cottage parking might still have some spaces due to people avoiding paying... dream on. I know some visitors commonly use the wide pavement to park to avoid paying... I have few concerns with this if they are off the road and not blocking the pavement such that pedestrians are forced onto the road..

Post edited at 10:53
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OP Offwidth 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

Are you serious? Pedestrians and cars were forced to share space on the A5, a main trunk road that had in several points had been reduced to a single track road. The ambulance issues should be obvious enough for you. At other points parking blocked pavements on both sides forcing pedestrians into two lane sections, made riskier still by dangerous overtaking (from frustration). 

1
 DaveHK 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

I got the bus up Borrowdale rather than drive on Friday. Go me.

Northern Star 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

> Are you serious? Pedestrians and cars were forced to share space on the A5, a main trunk road that had in several points had been reduced to a single track road. The ambulance issues should be obvious enough for you. At other points parking blocked pavements on both sides forcing pedestrians into two lane sections, made riskier still by dangerous overtaking (from frustration).

Both times when we drove through the sections you mentioned (at 10am on the inbound, and at 4pm on the out) there was still space for two large (ish) vehicles to pass perfectly comfortably.  We didn't observe many pedestrians walking in the carriageway despite there being lots and lots of people around walking on both sides of the pavement.  We parked without problem in the layby below Tryfan Bach (still spaces at 10am).  We observed no frustrated overtaking and provided you drove through the area with due consideration (slower than normally), as everyone was, then there was no great danger to anyone.  We heard and saw the ambulance from high up on Tryfan and can't say that it seemed to be held up for any longer than if negotiating a moderately busy urban road for example.

Perhaps you have been particularly unlucky with your timing, and us particularly lucky?  Or perhaps it wasn't as big an issue as you are making out, on one of the very few days of the year when it is always expected to be exceptionally busy?

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OP Offwidth 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

It shows how easily climbers can miss stuff whilst out in the hills. I drove down to Bethesda at 12:00ish on Sunday and it was utter chaos. I'm guilty as well as I seemingly climbed the route next to you at the roughly same time on Saturday without noticing anyone on it.

baron 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

> Someone above suggested Ogwen cottage parking might still have some spaces due to people avoiding paying... dream on. I know some visitors commonly use the wide pavement to park to avoid paying... I have few concerns with this if they are off the road and not blocking the pavement such that pedestrians are forced onto the road..

I actually said that people were parking on the pavement a few weeks ago, not this weekend, and possibly  in order to avoid paying as the pay car park had plenty of spaces.

Parking on the pavement of a busy main road creates an unnecessary danger.

 StockportAl 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

As I have been working over the weekend I went away in the week, returning on Friday. I'd driven to Ennerdale and when I returned to the car on Friday the place was fairly overrun with people parked for quite a way back along the road. As there is no alternative way of getting up in to the valley it's obvious people will drive, I did. In a perfect world I'd like to use public transport to get there but only when it can match or not be significantly longer than driving (took just under 3 hours from home with a coffee stop at Tebay). I know on the train 3 hours would just about have me at Barrow with about another hour to the nearest station (likely St Bees or Whitehaven) and then no onward transport for the last few miles.

Yesterday when I finished work I, like Heleno above, went up to Windgather and it was quieter than I expected. It was nice to see a family turn up while I was there (three generations by the looks of it) with two generations doing some of the routes. I stayed to just short of sunset before going to the pub.

 Cheese Monkey 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

I’ve done shift work my entire career. Have spent the whole weekend working nights. It’s been great, got loads done at home and loads done at work. Off to Cornwall tomorrow for a week and I expect it will be pretty chilled.

I don’t really get bank holidays. Why not just give everyone (inc kids) however many days it is to take off when they choose?

 Sean Kelly 22 Apr 2019
In reply to SouthernSteve:

Never that difficult to find a quiet corner if you use your loaf even last weekend. However the thought of tramping uphill in that heat has little appeal. I personally stay home on BH weekends and let others park on the M6/M5/M1. But then again it helps to be retired!

 profitofdoom 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Cheese Monkey

> ........Why not just give everyone (inc kids) however many days it is to take off when they choose?

In schools - if the teacher takes that day off and the kids don't, there'll be no-one in class with those kids. If one or more kids or take that day off but the teacher and the other kids in class don't, that kid/ those kids will miss a number of lessons, affecting their learning, progress, and exam preparation - they'll want and need to catch up later, but teachers don't have time to do that

 neilh 22 Apr 2019
In reply to deacondeacon:

I was in langale Friday. Seemed surprisingly quiet. WhiteGhyll quiet too .

 HannahC 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

I was feeling really smug yesterday having made the most of the great weather and good tide times in Cornwall managing to do all the routes we had planned. 

No issues with parking and a good trip down on the Thursday. 

I’ve now been on this journey home forever and balance has been restored... Will I ever get home???

Post edited at 17:46
 Myfyr Tomos 22 Apr 2019
In reply to SouthernSteve:

Crazy weekend on Cadair Idris. Carparks full by 9.30 on Saturday with cars parked both sides of A487 and B4405. Counted almost 200 people at the summit early afternoon. Almost as busy on Sunday but back to normal-ish today. Granted, Rhinogydd will  have been nice and quiet, apart from Cwm Bychan.

Post edited at 20:00
 static266 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Well I had Carreg y Foel Gron (Moelwynion/Migneint) and Atlantic Slabs (Carnedd y Filiast) to myself over the bank holiday weekend. 

But work at the Pen y Pass youth hostel gave an all time record weekend. 

Honeypots exceedingly busy but elsewhere business as usual. 

 SouthernSteve 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Myfyr Tomos:

When I used to work nearby - several decades ago, Cadair was always really quiet regardless of the season. I haven't been for a while. An (off season) trip to the mountain as well as Craig yr Aderyn and Castell y Bere is long overdue, although friends in the area are long gone.This thread is a good prompt. 

 Neil Williams 22 Apr 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Parkingwise I think there needs to be an area set aside for parking a fair way away from Snowdon and make the whole area a parking free area except for certain pre-applied permits (disabled people etc) between certain times. 

> Then an included bus ticket for all car occupants who park in this area. A fleet of busses every 15 minutes doing a complete circuit of the mountain from dawn to dusk. 

Yep, I'd go with that.  Close the Pen y Pass car park completely and make it into a decent little mini bus station with proper facilities, and enhance the Snowdon Sherpa network in quality, frequency and coverage as well as connecting better with the railway to encourage weekend trippers to go by train instead.  Tourist tax on all accommodation including camping to fund it (that's how the Swiss do it - you pay a tourist tax of about CHF3/£2 per night which funds free local public transport during your stay), and parking heavily chargeable in all locations other than the P&R car parks or if you leave your car in one place for your stay i.e. the campsite/hotel.

Obviously proper arrangements for locals to get a big discount for unavoidable car use as per London, though they would of course also benefit from the enhanced bus service.

Also might be worth seeing whether a few enhancements could be made to the Conwy Valley railway (once the flooding fixes have been done) and even the Welsh Highland Railway adding a few loops so a local DMU service could be provided (but you could still cough up more for a ride on a classic steam train) - if you could get the day trippers parking up in Caernarfon and taking the train down to/from Snowdon Sherpa Halt by the YHA that would put a bit of a dent in it, but it'd need a timetable planned to work for a day in the hills, which it presently isn't, it's planned around a day return train trip.

This is all basically what the Swiss do so it's all possible with the will and the money.

Post edited at 22:55
 1234None 23 Apr 2019
In reply to profitofdoom:

> In schools - if the teacher takes that day off and the kids don't, there'll be no-one in class with those kids.

That is a problem that is not too difficult to solve with a cover teacher or supervisor.  I assume the days off would be booked well in advance and if schools and kids cope when teachers are off sick I am sure they can cope with a few days each year where their regular teacher is not there.  

> If one or more kids or take that day off but the teacher and the other kids in class don't, that kid/ those kids will miss a number of lessons, affecting their learning, progress, and exam preparation - they'll want and need to catch up later, but teachers don't have time to do that

Even as a teacher I have never really got this.  If missing a day or three...albeit with a system for booking those days off in advance, poses such a problem for learning, then I’d suggest the problem is with the way the curriculum is structured and schools are run rather than the suggestion of kids being able to take a few days off each year.  Because we stick with a largely Victorian education system, we reject sensible suggestions to solve other problems, which may rock the overladen Victorian boat.

Post edited at 07:38
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 john arran 23 Apr 2019
In reply to 1234None:

The system in France seems to be an improvement, whereby the country is split into three zones, each having school holidays staggered by one week. Doesn't help national holidays but it does help spread the load of families travelling across three consecutive weekends rather than all on the same one.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Someone will probably have better memory than me. I’m sure I remember a couple of attempts at ‘gateway’ schemes in Snowdonia which have effectively been blocked by businesses saying it will kill their trade.

In reply to Offwidth:

You are calling for change on the back of a very rare event. An Easter Bank Holiday in the middle of a period of very unseasonal weather. It happened, you contributed to it, the probability of a repeat of these conditions next year or in the next 10 is small. Suck it up and move on. 

3
OP Offwidth 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

I see its OK with you if there is dangerous parking as its rare... I'm sure if there is an accident that will be consoling to the victims.  I didn't contribute: I saw the problems as I left and at that point there were quite a few parking places on my campsite. In all my decades of climbing I've never needed to park illegally, dangerously or to park on verges or partly on pavements such that it reduced two lane traffic to one lane.

I've also realised some of this parking would probably be a road traffic offence (parking on pavements or verges where there are double white centre lines).

10
In reply to Offwidth:

You did contribute, you went to Wales. I imagine a percentage of your ire is fueled by the others who went there too, preventing you from parking and/or making your driving difficult. You did make a sound decision in avoiding using your car, good skills, you responded to the conditions, sound mountaineering judgement there. 

I am not condoning the dangerous parking. I am saying that calling for change on the back of an anomalous data point is folly. 

1
OP Offwidth 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Again I was there the whole week before and left on the Sunday. I had no ire as my car was parked in the campsite all day on the bank holiday weekend Friday and Saturday. My concern is that so many people parked dangerously in several spots all at least miles away. I am not concerned at all that people came to Snowdonia and enjoyed the good weather.

Some people made useful suggestions instead of trying to pick a fight.... why don't you try that next time.

6
In reply to Offwidth:

You have not addressed the issue that your data is invalid. 

Next Easter, as usual, those in Wales will be developing gills, climbers will be hoping for good ice on the Ben and those resources you wish for to police the parking wasted.

Not picking a fight adding a dose of technical rigour to the discussion. 

 Luke01 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

It's not really rare, unfortunately. Cars have been parked blocking the A5 in ogwen and the area around pen y gwryd on every decent weekend though the summer (and a good few in spring and autumn) for the last couple of years. It has got to the point that something needs to be done really, as it is dangerous and quite regular. 

 Babika 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

Another vote for that sort of system. 

The narrow congested valley of Yosemite seems to manage its 7million visitors ok with a free bus service that just goes round and round really regularly and really late into the evening. You just pay a toll to enter the park. All very sensible. 

In French ski resorts they also run free buses all the time round loops. Result? everyone uses them and the cars stay parked. 

There are enough examples that if you want people to leave their cars behind you have to make the tourist transport free, regular and easy to access.  

 Neil Williams 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Babika:

It's particularly easy to do in Snowdonia (as compared to say the Lakes) because there are only a small number of main roads. It just needs the funding.

Post edited at 19:23
 Chris_Mellor 23 Apr 2019
In reply to deacondeacon:

I think there is a massive problem here, causing sentiments like; "people that park like dicks should have slurry sprayed all over their cars."

People are encouraged to visit and enjoy the mountainous National Parks by:-

- National Park authorities incentivised to increase visitor numbers

- Regional tourist boards desirous of increasing visitor numbers

- Local town authorities wanting tourist visitors to use the local businesses

Yet the parking infrastructure to support the visitor numbers isn't there. We can't expect people who have driven 50 miles or 70 miles or even a 100 miles or more to turn round and go home when there is nowhere to park at the honey spot of their choice and insufficient road capacity for all the vehicles involved.

So they park where they can. To fine them and insult them because the various authorities have encouraged them to come and failed to provide sufficient parking places and road capacity seems to me to be idiotically cruel.

It seems to me that visitor numbers should be be reduced in some way - don't know how - before the need for more parking infrastructure and road capacity starts destroying the overall National Park environments.

Post edited at 20:41
2
 john arran 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

> It seems to me that visitor numbers should be be reduced in some way - don't know how - before the need for more parking infrastructure and road capacity starts destroying the overall National Park environments.

Why deny people the opportunity to enjoy the outdoors simply because the only reasonable option provided for getting there is to drive and park? An effective shuttle bus service could allow far more people to benefit. Funding it is a more thorny problem, however...

 DancingOnRock 23 Apr 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

The main thing is to prise people out of their cars and create a ‘bus culture’.

Get hotels, bunk houses and B&B owners on side, add in TV advertising, and get them to convince their guests that it’s easier, quicker and cheaper using the busses. 

 Neil Williams 24 Apr 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> The main thing is to prise people out of their cars and create a ‘bus culture’.

> Get hotels, bunk houses and B&B owners on side, add in TV advertising, and get them to convince their guests that it’s easier, quicker and cheaper using the busses. 

FWIW there is precedent for an almost totally commercial high quality rural bus network - look at the Isle of Wight (and the Lakes isn't bad either).  It just seems that Wales just gets mediocre Arriva and even more mediocre one-man-and-his-bus independents.

But yes, I agree.  By all means drive in with your kit (though it'd also be good to get things better connected with the railway), but then park up for the weekend/week and enjoy the freedom and a pint or 3 in the pub afterwards!

Post edited at 00:22
 deacondeacon 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

> I think there is a massive problem here, causing sentiments like; "people that park like dicks should have slurry sprayed all over their cars."

With all due respect were you there? We pulled up at the Stickle Barn car park (possibly the biggest rural honeypot spot in the lakes) at 10am so hardly early. There was at least 20 spaces left in the car park. Amazing for a bank holiday really and to be honest I thought we'd struggle to find a space. At the double bridge on the road between the old/new dungeon ghylls there was people parked in front of gates and along the road causing problems for traffic. 

Also while sorting our gear out the public bus pulled in to the car park and it only had 6-7 people on it.  

The reason for bad parking is not due to the lack of parking facilities, it's because people want to park as close as possible to their destination, which we can all be guilty of. 

Also just because you've driven for hours after seeing an advert for the lake district doesn't give you an automatic right to park like a dick. Just go up the road and walk a bit further/thumb a lift/catch the bus. There would have definitely been spaces all over Chapel Stile to park but people aren't prepared to change their plans last minute.  

OP Offwidth 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

You really are tiresome. The valid data was the dangerous parking.. The infrequency is what makes 'carrot' actions difficult. A 'stick' is to enforce the law for those committing road traffic offences and those commiting parking offences. Another is quotas,  another is holiday taxes.

5
 Mark Collins 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

When I stay in Snowdonia, I often camp opposite the pub in Nant Peris. It just struck me that it's probably possible to walk into Cloggy from there, so perhaps a bit more imagination and walking could help with this situation. 

In reply to Offwidth:

Gee, thanks for the promotion honey.

Address the issue rather than flinging insults and accusations please. 

2
Northern Star 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

People who go away to the mountains on a sunny bank holiday weekend and then complain about the number of cars and people doing silly things reminds me of those who move near to a busy airport and then complain about the noise from the aircraft.

To be fair though, what both the Ogwen Valley and more urgently, the Llanberis Pass need is a proper waymarked footpath close to but also separated from the road.  Trying to progress anywhere on foot up the Llanberis Pass as we recently did to access Bryants Gully is exciting at best, suicidal at worst. 

I the absence of any sort of footpath, apart from a small section lower down we were left to fend for ourselves on the road, trapped walking between stone walls and two lanes of moving traffic.  Came scarily close to being pinned up against the wall by a coach at one point!

With the above situation existing it is no wonder that people drive to try to park as close to their start point as possible.  So come on Snowdonia National Park, if you can use a helicopter to drop rocks off for path construction high up on the mountains, surely some nice low level linking paths that could become part of anyone's day out in the hills, allowing them to leave cars away from the bottle neck areas should be an equal and less expensive priority?

 Mike Peacock 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Yep, I'd go with that.  Close the Pen y Pass car park completely and make it into a decent little mini bus station with proper facilities, and enhance the Snowdon Sherpa network in quality, frequency and coverage as well as connecting better with the railway to encourage weekend trippers to go by train instead. 

I'm not sure any solution would work. I lived in Bangor for almost ten years, and a lot of that was spent without a car. The local bus timetables varied each year, sometimes good and sometimes less good, but with a bit of creativity it was possible to get a fair distance out (I even managed a day walking the hills above Cwm Penmachno with relative ease). One year Arriva introduced a fantastic service for the summer: a bus that ran from Bangor - Bethesda - Ogwen - Capel - Pen y Pass - Llanberis - Caernarfon - Menai Bridge - Bangor (i.e. a big loop of the Glyderau). This connected to a lot of local transport hubs but still wasn't a success, and I don't think Arriva ever repeated the service.

The thing is that regardless of how good the buses are, people will always think driving to their destination is more convenient.

In reply to Neil Williams:

We camp and leave the van on site, walk into Betws y Coed for breakfast, then take the bus to the Cromlech.  Bus back, and pizza and beer before walking over to the campsite. Works really well, the Cromlech parking is hit and miss even away from bank holidays. 

The park and ride at the bottom of the Pass often overflows out onto the verges, but usually works well. We usually bus up to Pen y Pass then I’ll hitch down to get the car. I’ve never waited more than 10 minutes for a lift.

A big park and ride at say Llandudno Junction, regular trains down and regular shuttle buses from Betws y Coed would work, and keep the shops happy. A tourist tax like in France to pay for infrastructure and public transport is the way to go, and up the management and fines for cars out of bays.

 profitofdoom 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Mike Peacock:

> The thing is that regardless of how good the buses are, people will always think driving to their destination is more convenient.

That's right, it's really very simple - everyone wants to go right to their destination by car, everyone wants to preserve pristine areas (as they should), increasing affluence, too few car parks, more & more people want to go to the hills, too few buses. Something had to bust one day

Then we inevitably get threads like "Parking Madness in Snowdonia". This really isn't rocket science

 Siward 24 Apr 2019
In reply to profitofdoom:

As mentioned up thread (the Swiss model) a workable system could be introduced with sufficient political will. Free buses could readily self fund via a tourist tax and those who find it more convenient to use their car (i.e. everyone) will soon be dissuaded by parking fines. 

 profitofdoom 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Siward:

> As mentioned up thread (the Swiss model) a workable system could be introduced with sufficient political will. Free buses could readily self fund via a tourist tax and those who find it more convenient to use their car (i.e. everyone) will soon be dissuaded by parking fines. 

Thanks a lot for your reply, there's hope, I can see

baron 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

The Ogwen valley has a way marked footpath but agree on the need for one in the Llanberis pass.

 Neil Williams 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Mike Peacock:

There will always be those who think the car is better.  But if you compare the lacklustre bus service in North Wales with the much better, well-promoted one in the Lakes or the Isle of Wight, there is something it is really lacking.  Arriva just aren't very good at selling things compared with Stagecoach and Go-Ahead, and the small operators definitely aren't.

You often can do things surprisingly well by public transport, and things like the Google journey planner work wonders.  But you have to be that way minded - it takes heavy marketing to convert people, and the product has to be consistently good.

Post edited at 09:57
 Simon Caldwell 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

> the absence of any sort of footpath, apart from a small section lower down we were left to fend for ourselves on the road

There is actually a footpath most of the way up the Pass. But apart from a few sections, waymarking is either sparse or completely lacking. I suspect they intended to continue the now well-marked path from PyG down the other side but ran out of money before they could finish the job.

 Simon Caldwell 24 Apr 2019
In reply to deacondeacon:

> The reason for bad parking is not due to the lack of parking facilities, it's because people want to park as close as possible to their destination,

Also because some of the parking fees are too high, so people will understandably try to find a free alternative.

 deacondeacon 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

£6.50 per day is not too high. Most people (everyone there?) would have paid more than that in fuel to get there.

It's langdale, not Heathrow airport

1
 Max factor 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

> FWIW there is precedent for an almost totally commercial high quality rural bus network - look at the Isle of Wight (and the Lakes isn't bad either).  It just seems that Wales just gets mediocre Arriva and even more mediocre one-man-and-his-bus independents.

This problem wont be solved by improving the public bus service.  It was an exceptional weekend, there were cars on both sides of the road from Ogwen cottage to  Milestone Buttress on Saturday. We were there just as the first person started parking on the Llyn side of the A5, and within minutes there were 20 cars that had followed suite. There is no way a scheduled bus network could deliver capacity to accommodate the numbers that were there this weekend without it running at <10% capacity the rest of the time. 

Just maybe it could work with the park authority chartering a fleet of mini-busses / coaches to meet anticipated demand on peak weekends.

 DancingOnRock 24 Apr 2019
In reply to deacondeacon:

Fuel is a hidden cost. People are strange. If you can park in a lay-by for free they wouldn’t  pay £1 to park. 

As I say. Incentivise them to use car parks and busses. Ban lay-by and side of the road parking. Charge £3 per person for a bus ticket which comes with free parking. More revenue to the busses and a more frequent service.

 DancingOnRock 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor:

Yep. You run special services at peak demand. Eg Early morning every 10mins dropping to half hour around mid morning and then picking up again at 4pm. Or whatever the surveys decide works. 

Does every car have 4 people in it for a start? £6.50 for one person is steep? £1.60 is nothing? 

Post edited at 11:38
 RX-78 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Well we (wife and 2 kids) took our bikes on the ferry and cycled around northern France. Apart from the coast road out of Calais towards Wissant it was mainly lovely and quiet. We half joked it would be less stress to get the ferry to the Pas-de-Calais beaches than go to the beaches on the English side.

 Simon Caldwell 24 Apr 2019
In reply to deacondeacon:

> £6.50 per day is not too high.

Clearly most people disagree, as they try to avoid paying it.

 PaulJepson 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Problem is you can't restrict access to our national parks because they have massive towns in them. 

What you could do is enforce much harsher penalties for anyone not parked properly in a carpark (e.g. tow vehicles, not just ticket). Enforce a residential parking scheme for people who live in the towns in the park and have an external park and ride system dropping visitors in the park via public transport. 

The solution is no different to tackling congestion and parking in city centres. 

 Neil Williams 24 Apr 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

In much of Germany, certainly in urban areas and areas similar to national parks, the rule is not the typical UK "you can park unless it says you can't", but "you can't park except in marked bays".  Perhaps this, with more provision of bays and increased charges, would be the way to go.  Indeed, it might be the way to go more widely.

Post edited at 14:11
 Dave Garnett 24 Apr 2019
In reply to deacondeacon:

> £6.50 per day is not too high. Most people (everyone there?) would have paid more than that in fuel to get there.

I agree, but needing it in coins is real pain.  Contactless payment would reduce the stress considerably.

 Neil Williams 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> I agree, but needing it in coins is real pain.  Contactless payment would reduce the stress considerably.


Completely agreed, all car parks should take contactless.  The one in central Ambleside does and it makes things loads easier.

TBH I don't even care that Pen y Pass is £10 (it still fills up, so it could easily go even higher), I just care about needing £10 in coins.

In reply to the thread title:

Suggs managed to squeeze the Morris minor in below the cromlech boulder. 

 Neil Williams 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Nah, just park your Toyota on top of Snowdon next to the cafe.  Less walking to do then.

 Jus 24 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

We parked in Nant Peris and took the bus to Pen Y Pass, all seemed pretty OK despite a lot of people. Eventually got lost on our own away from the hoards and had a great time.

The slate quarries were quite quiet on Monday 

 static266 25 Apr 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

The machines take card payments as of 2018. 

 Neil Williams 25 Apr 2019
In reply to static266:

That's a definite improvement!

 Simon Caldwell 25 Apr 2019
In reply to Jus:

> We parked in Nant Peris and took the bus to Pen Y Pass

And if the buses don't work out for whatever reason, it's not too far to walk, mostly off road. That's what we did last time we were there.

 jpicksley 25 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Over Easter we went to two sea cliff areas on the Moray coast. We met two other people on both days (the same people as it happens). We parked right next to them even though the car parks were otherwise empty and queued up behind them for the climbs they were on. We wanted to feel like we were in the Lake District or Wales. It was hateful.

Try Scotland. It's so much nicer and less stressful.

 Kevin Duffy 25 Apr 2019

It can be done without a car, see the post below. Bus to the start, bus from Llanberis to Pen-Y-Pass on Sunday morning, bus back to Bangor from Llanberis on Monday, so the transport options are there and the purported lack of them isn't what's responsible for the parking issues, that's just driver behaviour and the same people who'd park dangerously or selfishly or whatever are going to do it wherever they happen to be. On Sat morning I watched drivers doing lap after lap of full parking areas for 20 mins to avoid walking 10 mins, then parking where they shouldn't anyway.

Punishment through fines or slurry spraying is unlikely to work, driver behaviour is to imagine they're not the ones causing the problem so they'll be ok/ignored/tolerated, then be outraged when they're not. They've already been an obstruction for the day, so it solves nothing. They're also not the same drivers every year, so they make one visit, get a ticket, go home, then the following year someone else does the same and nothing improves. I deal with appeals of fines, trust me, they won't alter the behaviour or enough people to make a real difference. I think the only option is not to offer people the option of getting to somewhere they can park badly to begin with. You're stopped at the car park and you show your resident's pass, accommodation booking, professional pass or disabled pass (or whatever list of exemptions you fancy that allows access to anyone who needs it but deters the mass of casual entrants), otherwise you park and ride, or go home if that doesn't suit you.

https://www.facebook.com/779678128798778/posts/1789454824487765/

1
OP Offwidth 25 Apr 2019
In reply to jpicksley:

For the full experience you really needed to have blocked their car in. Don't worry I love climbing in Scotland and have done plenty up there. 

 jpicksley 25 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

I tried but there was too much empty space in the car park.

See you out in the wilds of Scotland sometime (well, probably won't as there are too many nice places to go).

OP Offwidth 25 Apr 2019
In reply to jpicksley:

You never know. I like crowds sometimes and wilds at others. My concern with Snowdonia was just the dangerous parking, not the people or cars... as it was we climbed routes on Tryfan on the Bank Holiday Saturday that may have had their first ascent this year and in between had a good chin wag with various climbers including an Italian and German couple who were over from Norfolk and were BMC members. Another climber kindly removed a tick (as we forgot our tick tool and SA knife).

 Neil Williams 25 Apr 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Still never had a tick and only seen one once in all my 39 years...


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