Old man of Stoer tyrolean

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 ree1064 23 May 2023

Hi, a new tyrolean has been set up to the left of where it historically has been (near the end of pitch 1 traverse). Is this permanent? Does anyone know it’s provenance or has used it recently etc. Also a new abseil anchor has been set up presumably to aid coming down to the new tyrolean anchor point rather than the right hand platform (old tyrolean set up). Assume 60m ropes will be plenty for this? TIA for any info. 


2
 timparkin 23 May 2023
In reply to ree1064:

It's a setup to avoid the often wet and out of character 5a traverse. There are no permanent tyroleans on the store so it's just what people have left in place. 

 Robert Durran 23 May 2023
In reply to timparkin:

> It's a setup to avoid the often wet and out of character 5a traverse. There are no permanent tyroleans on the store so it's just what people have left in place. 

So please could the next public spirited climber remove it (and any others).

Post edited at 10:08
10
 James0101 23 May 2023
In reply to ree1064:

The new tyrolean was fine on Saturday although it could do with some more tension, it was anchored to three shiny nuts tough tagged to someone called Gillean.

The new abseil took us down to the right hand platform  - so we had to do the first pitch of original route anyway. It might be possible to get back to the tyrolean with directional placements during the abseil and if it was less windy, but we were miles off.

I appreciate the route being equipped - thank you. I think black rope might be a better choice in the future to be less visually intrusive on such a beautiful feature which walkers and tourists also visit.

Post edited at 11:04
17
 Nathan Adam 23 May 2023
In reply to timparkin:

The first pitch is great craic, well worth doing and well protected if you take a couple of big cams (as most would if climbing sandstone).

General reply re: the tyrolean;

I’m not too keen on leaving the tyrolean in place, but would welcome a better option of permanent anchors on the stack side that didn’t involve corroding junk and completely unnecessary risk of drowning if anything failed. Someone’s comment recently about a drilled thread sounded the most secure without leaving any metalware in the cracks or placing bolts.

Two well placed threads tied off with 11mm rope and chunky ring would likely last a lot longer than the inevitable junk that fills the cracks and makes it more difficult to achieve a safe tyrolean. Of course this is unlikely to ever happen because we can’t be progressive here. 

13
 Moacs 23 May 2023
In reply to Nathan Adam:

If you're worried about drowning, don't do a route where a big chunk of the fun is the initial swim and setting up access.  Or do it on a calm day.  Or set it up so last person swims back.  Or lots of alternatives to diminishing a magnificent adventure into an instagram tick.

27
 ebdon 23 May 2023
In reply to timparkin:

Hope this gets removed ASAP. A significant part of this route is the adventure of getting over and negotiating the sea on P1 which, for me ar least made the day a fantastic, adventure.

Missing these off its just a mediocre low grade route allbeit in a spectacular setting.

9
 Ean T 23 May 2023
In reply to ree1064:

Another vote for removing the fixed tyrolean. It dumbs down the experience. If you rocked up and there was a fixed rope to the top of the stac, would you just prusik up the rope? 

4
 Moacs 23 May 2023
In reply to Moacs:

Not ruffled but curious which bit of my comment people didn't chime with?

3
 lowersharpnose 23 May 2023
In reply to Moacs:

Dunno. I upvoted it.  The Old Man of Stoer is an adventure route, we had a Dave to do the swim. 

 timparkin 23 May 2023
In reply to Nathan Adam:

> The first pitch is great craic, well worth doing and well protected if you take a couple of big cams (as most would if climbing sandstone).

It was almost impossible to climb in the slimy wet, even for our guide (who has climbed harder than many). I tried jamming it and still have scars on the back of my hands. I'd say it's a bit out of character with the rest of the route unless it's dry. That said, it's easy to aid across if you've a decent rack.

10
 Luke90 23 May 2023
In reply to Moacs:

I sympathised with the call to maintain an adventurous ethos but thought the reference to Instagram and motivation was pretty irrelevant. I certainly think social media can serve as a poor motive for doing something, and sometimes drives poor behaviour in the outdoors (and indeed elsewhere) but I don't think it has much to do with whether people relish a spicy swim or would rather take advantage of a conveniently in-situ Tyrolean.

Personally, I'm a bit conflicted. I hate seeing challenges dumbed down and I thoroughly respect the ethos of self-reliance and adventure. But I'm also a terrible wuss about cold water and a fairly weak swimmer. So whilst I would instinctively oppose having a rope permanently in-situ, I also know that if I'm completely honest with myself I'd be relieved to actually see one if I turned up to do it. All of which has nothing to do with my social media use or motivations for climbing.

6
 jkarran 23 May 2023
In reply to ree1064:

Surely it's more likely that someone is still up there on holiday and plans to go back for another route than that they've left a rigged Tyrolean in-situ for the weather or other climbers to destroy?

That is unless they had a bit of an epic and had to scarper minus their kit. In which case, most of us have been there before and those that haven't have it to look forward to. Either way, messing about for the the insta-likes suggestion seems a way down the list of probable explanations to me. Or maybe I'm behind the times.

jk

1
 pasbury 23 May 2023
In reply to Luke90:

If you're a weak swimmer / get cold then perhaps there are better objectives for you than a sea stack in northern Scotland.

7
In reply to timparkin:

Am I not right in thinking that Julia Bradbury has done this pitch?!
 

jcm

1
 Luke90 23 May 2023
In reply to pasbury:

I'm not arguing in favour of leaving the Tyrolean there. I'm just admitting that personally, despite my ethical objections to it, I'd have to admit to feeling relief if I got to do the climb without having to swim. And saying that I don't think Instagram has much to do with it and was a weird thing to bring into the discussion.

 Robert Durran 23 May 2023
In reply to timparkin:

> It was almost impossible to climb in the slimy wet, even for our guide (who has climbed harder than many). 

Last time I did it we just swam both ways. Seemed least faff really. I then ended up aiding the slimy traverse. A fun day out was had by all.

 Robert Durran 23 May 2023
In reply to Luke90:

> I'm not arguing in favour of leaving the Tyrolean there. I'm just admitting that personally, despite my ethical objections to it, I'd have to admit to feeling relief if I got to do the climb without having to swim.

I imagine gew people would shun the tyrolean if it were in situ. But that's not the point. It's a bit like the "you don't have to clip the bolts" nonsense.

 DaveHK 23 May 2023
In reply to lowersharpnose:

> Dunno. I upvoted it.  The Old Man of Stoer is an adventure route, we had a Dave to do the swim. 

This sounds familiar, do I know you? 😉

Post edited at 17:02
 65 23 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I imagine gew people would shun the tyrolean if it were in situ. But that's not the point. It's a bit like the "you don't have to clip the bolts" nonsense.

This.

Though there was a rope in-situ when I was there (30+ years ago) for which we were both grateful as neither of us were swimmers. It went straight onto the plinth so our first pitch was th steep crack going straight up rather than the landward facing traverse that seems to be the official first pitch.

Anyway it sounds as if whoever removes it will get at least three shiny new nuts as swag.

 Robert Durran 23 May 2023
In reply to 65:

> Anyway it sounds as if whoever removes it will get at least three shiny new nuts as swag.

An apt reward for tidying up.

1
 Moacs 23 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

Has anyone brought lost arrow to Scotland, trailed a long rope and then tyrolean-ed back to the clifftop?  That'd be a wild trip

 65 23 May 2023
In reply to Moacs:

I'm pretty sure that an acquaintance of mine has rigged the top of the stack to the clifftop so everyone who'd climbed it could Tyrollean their way back, in fact I think Mrs 65 may have been one of them. I will ask later.

 ebdon 23 May 2023
In reply to Cog:

That is wild!

 Nathan Adam 23 May 2023
In reply to Moacs:

Thanks for proving my point  

2
 timparkin 23 May 2023
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Am I not right in thinking that Julia Bradbury has done this pitch?!

Just asked somebody who guided her and that would be a firm 'nope'

 Robert Durran 23 May 2023
In reply to 65:

> I'm pretty sure that an acquaintance of mine has rigged the top of the stack to the clifftop so everyone who'd climbed it could Tyrollean their way back, in fact I think Mrs 65 may have been one of them. I will ask later.

I think the same team did similar on Am Buachaille which is properly impresssive!

 dr evil 23 May 2023
In reply to ree1064: Tyroleans in sea cliff climbing were common place in the 60s and 70s. Techniques have evolved since then: we now have deep water soloing, wet suits and dry bags. There is no need for a fixed tyrolean on this feature. 

1
 Moacs 23 May 2023
In reply to Nathan Adam:

> Thanks for proving my point  

I really haven't; that's in your head.

Partly because your point seemed to be about lack of "progressiveness" - and fixed gear is regressive

2
 65 23 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I think the same team did similar on Am Buachaille which is properly impresssive!

Yes, now you mention it I think I saw some of the photos relatively recently. There may have been a time of my life when I'd have been up for that, with the emphasis on the 'may have been'.

 Nathan Adam 24 May 2023
In reply to Moacs:

So what's the alternative? Bits of metal wedged in the rock left to corrode and cause more damage to the cracks? 

People use tyroleans to access stacks and it's a big reason why people climb on Stoer, it's part of the experience for the vast majority. Doing that on severley corroded gear that has clogged up a crack meaning it won't take any alternative safe protection is "regressive", as you put it, clinging on to some past notion of danger for dangers sake. Some of the fixed gear on the stack side physically had to be drilled out this spring because it was so clogged up with remnants of old pegs, nuts and hexes. If everyone swam, it wouldn't be an issue, but that's simply not going to become common practice.

A suitably long lasting, fixed point on the stack side diminishes nothing of the experience from climbing the routes. I don't think anyone would do the tyrolean and route, then say after "God, that was good but would've been better if I'd known the gear I was entrusting my life to was placed X number of years ago and the added risk really enhanced the enjoyment of my day out!".

4
 apache 24 May 2023
In reply to Nathan Adam:

Is this a case for a pair of glue in Ti bolts to be placed at either end of the tyrolean? Discrete, long lasting as they don’t corrode and don’t fill the cracks up with abandoned corroding gear and tape/ slings of unknown origin and age. Just a thought 😉

14
 Ian Hinkins 24 May 2023
In reply to ree1064:

We climbed the Original route a couple of weeks ago. We put our own Tyrolen in across to the start of pitch one and did the traverse but we were lucky to have a lovely sunny day. The tide was actually too high on the way out so even with a tight line we were concerned that in the middle we would have been very close to getting dipped so both swam but used it to transfer the gear dry. We both used it on the return with no issues. We left 3m of static rope in-situ on the stack side to make our tyrolen retrieveable. 

There was an anchor at the first belay for another tyrolen as described above then but the 3 nuts were not brand new and were very wedged in by obviously having had a lot of force on them. It had a few meters of white static line with 2 maillons on it. 

The abseil anchor at the top was orientated to send you back to that belay (at the end of pitch one). It also had the same static line with 2 maillons on it. We rotated the anchor, by shifting the in-situ rope around the 2 boulders at the top to take us back to our tyrolen. It all worked fine. 

​​​​​​We were glad of all the extra faff to make it such an excellent adventurous day, but on a sunny day like we had a swimming both ways would be far faster!

I think a small amount of tat that gets removed/replaced regularly in these type of situation is OK. When I find tat that has just been added to and there is a big bundle I try to have a tidy up. 

 Babika 24 May 2023
In reply to ree1064:

I did it in 2019. The swim, setting up the tyrolean properly, climb, abseil and tyrolean back was one of the best climbing days of my life. 

The whole faff, debate about cold water, tides, angles and tensioning ropes was an integral part.

It might have been easier, but ultimately less satisfying, if we'd turned up with everything in place and shiny new, solid fittings. Personally I hope the OMoS doesn't go this way.

 Robert Durran 24 May 2023
In reply to Nathan Adam:

I suppose it depends whether the thin end of the wedge argument outweighs your corroded anchor argument.

I was surprised a few weeks ago to see that there is now a bolted abseil anchor at the mid ledge of the main wall at Diabaig (and equally surprised I have heard no fuss or that they have not been chopped). The anchor at the top is a bunch of pegs. If the bolts stay, how long before the top anchor, with the water tested, will also be bolted? And then how long before other abseils are bolted for convenience? With 60m ropes the midway anchor is not needed. The scramble down is not the most fun but didn't ruin my day last time. And yes, we did use the bolts this time.

Would your proposed drilled anchor at Stoer be a special case one-off?

1
 DaveHK 24 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> surprised I have heard no fuss or that they have not been chopped). 

There was a fuss and I seem to remember there were bolts at the top that were chopped?

> Would your proposed drilled anchor at Stoer be a special case one-off?

Of course it wouldn't because the argument would apply to other venues too.

1
 Robert Durran 24 May 2023
In reply to DaveHK:

> There was a fuss and I seem to remember there were bolts at the top that were chopped?

Yes, if I remember rightly, bolts were placed at the top, there was a fuss and they were chopped. Hence my surprise at the new midway bolts not (so far) causing a fuss.

Post edited at 11:05
 Nathan Adam 24 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

I do see the point of maintaining trad ethic here, and I am very much for it. I just don’t believe that appropriately placed fixed anchors (whether they’re bolts or drilled threads) means that they’re going to infiltrate until that’s the norm. I think Stoer is a bit of a special exception, being the most popular of the stacks. But again, that doesn’t mean it’ll become commonplace at crags where it’s unnecessary. 

I’ve used the one at Diabaig a number of times as I mostly climb on 50m ropes so the midway station is quite useful. The pegs at the top will corrode away and ruin that bit of the rock soon enough too, needing drilled out. Whereas the bolts will last longer and when they’re done they can be extracted and resined over without anyone ever knowing they were there. The walk off however, as you say, isn’t really that bad and I’ve done that after being up there myself previously. 

I climbed at Creag Dubh yesterday and used several bolted belays that meant we didn’t have to climb 15m of grass to get to a suitable tree. It was great and I still enjoyed climbing above my gear and making scary moves. Bolted abseils in Scotland will never lead to parts of trad pitches being bolted for safety, there’s too strong an ethic here with plenty of people who’ll advocate for keeping the routes themselves clean (myself included).

6
 Nathan Adam 24 May 2023
In reply to apache:

There’s no need for them on the landward side as there’s good anchors that can be taken out at the end of the day.

But if you’re volunteering to put them in on the stack side, you might as well take another two and do a proper job… 😉

4
 Robert Durran 24 May 2023
In reply to Nathan Adam:

> I climbed at Creag Dubh yesterday and used several bolted belays that meant we didn’t have to climb 15m of grass to get to a suitable tree.

So they are already proliferating. And no apparent fuss (at least that I am aware of).

> Bolted abseils in Scotland will never lead to parts of trad pitches being bolted for safety.

Agreed. This is entirely about whether there should be drilled abseil anchors.

I'm in N. Wales at the moment and, although there are now plenty of well maintained semi-permanent abseil anchors on blocks and threads, I don't think there are drilled abseil anchors on proper trad crags (though maybe someone will correct me).

It would be remarkable if Scotland were "leading" the way on this by stealth.

 Nathan Adam 24 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

No apparent fuss because there’s no need for there to be any? I don’t see why there can’t be a happy middle ground. 

1
 Robert Durran 24 May 2023
In reply to Nathan Adam:

> No apparent fuss because there’s no need for there to be any? I don’t see why there can’t be a happy middle ground. 

You may be right. Though if that is now the consensus then the ground has certainly shifted. It will be interesting to see which way it goes in Scotland and south of the border.

 James0101 24 May 2023
In reply to James0101:

Not sure why I got hugely downvoted for answering the OPs question?

My comment about 'appreciate it, thanks' was to try and not come across as selfish for suggesting black rope would be less visually intrusive. I wasn't aware that this was a contentious issue. We walked in ready to swim for what it's worth.

 Fellover 24 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

I remember there being a fuss on here about the midway bolts. Certainly when I made my one and only visit to Diabaig I was expecting them to be there.

More on topic, imo an insitu tyrolean shouldn't exist at the old man of stoer, regardless of whether it's in the traditional position or at the end of the first pitch. I'm also anti bolted anchor. If there was no in situ tyrolean then there wouldn't be any need for a permanent anchor anyway.

 planetmarshall 24 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> So please could the next public spirited climber remove it (and any others).

You surely have to be prepared to set up your own (or swim) anyway, in case the Tyrolean belongs to a party ahead who strip it when they leave.

 mike barnard 25 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I was surprised a few weeks ago to see that there is now a bolted abseil anchor at the mid ledge of the main wall at Diabaig >

I hadn't heard about that. That's a weird one since, as you say, with 60m ropes you can get down in one go anyway. I thought that's generally what folk do when 60s make life easier? e.g. Old Man of Hoy

 Robert Durran 25 May 2023
In reply to Fellover:

> I remember there being a fuss on here about the midway bolts. Certainly when I made my one and only visit to Diabaig I was expecting them to be there.

So are myself and others misremembering that it was about bolts at the top?

 Robert Durran 25 May 2023
In reply to planetmarshall:

> You surely have to be prepared to set up your own (or swim) anyway, in case the Tyrolean belongs to a party ahead who strip it when they leave.

I assume nobody goes assuming there will be a tyrolean in situ anyway!

 alan moore 25 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> So are myself and others misremembering that it was about bolts at the top?

Yes. It was about the trundling of the existing, mid-height block belay ...that made way for the bolted one.

 mike barnard 25 May 2023
In reply to alan moore:

Depends when you mean. There was a lot of controversy about the bolts being placed at the top, but that happened a few years ago (2018?)

 Robert Durran 25 May 2023
In reply to mike barnard:

> Depends when you mean. There was a lot of controversy about the bolts being placed at the top, but that happened a few years ago (2018?)

That sounds about the right timing. So when did the midway bolts appear?

 mike barnard 25 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

Dunno, this thread's the first I've heard of them!

 Fellover 25 May 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> So are myself and others misremembering that it was about bolts at the top?

Afraid I don't know, maybe there were two threads? Always possible I've got it wrong and it was a thread about bolts at the top. I was definitely expecting the midway bolts to be there when I went, but it's possible it was just someone telling me rather than a UKC thread.


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