UKH

Anyone clear on where we can climb in the peak from midnight Saturday? 
If you don’t live there you won’t be able to travel in unless for education ( jamming practice?) youth services, work or caring....or presumably to test your eyesight on a highball

Any cliffs still outside the tier 3 zones?

Most of the peak is in tier 2. Only Burbage and Rivelin (of the major crags) are in tier 3, I think. 

Thanks

I’ll miss the burbage valley and Rivelin but that’s still great news.
So it’s just where the signs says ‘ City of Sheffield’ at the ends of the Burbage valley that the tier 3 bit starts is it ? 
I can cope with going to  Stanage ....

Most of the Peak District is in tier 1

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rock_talk/tier_3_eastern_grit-726830

For info.

But if you live within tier 3 Sheffield you can’t go there 

Of course you can. You are just “advised” not to. 

I wonder how many of those Sheffielders opposed to anyone touching rock at all during lockdown #1 will be out this weekend? Seeing as it's still not illegal.. just not advised  

Edit - and Mancs, to be completely fair. 

Decent day forecast sunday, can’t wait! Stanage will be deserted 😂

I can understand where your coming from.  Your hobby is much more important than unity in fighting a lethal virus.  And I expect you know enough about epidemiology to disregard advice from the the Government's senior medical advisors.  So those climbers alongside you who are lucky enough to have travelled from Tier 1 areas won't have a chance of catching off you if you happen to be asymptomatic.

I guess you won’t be going out this weekend as you will be busy polishing your halo.

Well I will be at home, but in my 60+ years I'm afraid I've had far too many indiscretions to have any chance of a halo, but I do take my social responsibilities seriously.  This also puts me in the slightly more vulnerable group  I'll be making use of the weekend working on my campervan conversion (Not yellow and it will have a functioning bog)  looking forward to post Covid climbing trips

Oh come on, not this argument again! I think we have a decent idea of how Covid spreads and the rules / guidelines recognise that. Outdoors is lower risk than indoors. The issue is people socialising with friends and family at home and in other indoor environments and to a lesser extent in outdoor 'contained' environments such as pub gardens (all sitting close together at the same table). Outdoor activities are low risk.

The risk of picking up or spreading Covid when climbing is very low unless the crag is rammed - in which case just go somewhere else (the obvious exception is your climbing partner so it does depend who you're climbing with but even here the rules are less stringent than back in spring - even T3 people are allowed to do outdoor recreational activities with other households, subject to the rule of 6.

I'm fairly Covid risk averse as far as high risk or unnecessary activities are concerned. Not been to the office since the lockdown, not been to a pub or restaurant since early September, supermarket once a week and so on. However still going climbing if the weather allows because it's a much lower risk level. If I don't go climbing, it's because the weather is rubbish, in which case I'll just go to the wall instead, which is higher Covid risk anyway! 

If you choose to refrain from climbing, that's understandable but is it really right to suggest that other people shouldn't head out? 

I don't think people should be criticised for doing something that (a) they enjoy, (b) is relatively low risk and (c) is perfectly legal. Advice is not the same as rules and should not be treated as such.

Funny how it's always the stay at home brigade who want to impose their views on everyone else.

Sorry but if you can't see the hypocrisy of that post!!!

From someone who doesn't comment either way on climbing at present

How is it hypocritical? Michael is saying people shouldn't be criticised for going climbing. He's not criticising Kevin for staying at home. Each to their own.

There's implied criticism in the last paragraph

The way I see it is I live in a tier 3 zone (Barnsley) & whilst I have avoided socialising at all and only worked with a handful of people in the last few weeks, if I go out this Sunday it will be to Wharncliffe because a) it's 10 miles b) it must be in tier 3 area c) I can't condone mixing with people from tier 2 or 1 with a clear conscience, no matter how low I think the risk is or how close to Sheffield those other crags are. I'm prepared to play my part & just hope enough other people are to keep the virus under control. I may go for a local cycle ride or walk instead.

Well, I was responding to criticism wasn't I?

As for hypocrisy, no I can't see it. I would never try to suggest to someone who doesn't feel comfortable going out in the present climate that they're wrong to take that view.

So crossing from Burbage to climb at Stanage against the 'advice' this weekend is reprehensible, whereas spending a few days in low-risk North Wales a couple of weeks ago, while other areas of Wales were effectively under "Tier 3" restrictions but there was not yet any formal ban on visitors from England would have been a-ok?

I've had a bit of a glum couple of weeks, and with it a degree of retrospective FOMO.  Fear of having missed out.  I had a brilliant trip to Anglesey back at the start of September, in the socially-distanced company of a new friend I quickly became very fond (and tbh a little bit in awe) of, so it was inevitably a wee bit of a come-down when that ended as all things must.

Since then I've seen lots and lots of lovely photos on the soshul meeja, posted by friends and acquaintances of their (mostly) paddling trips to Pembrokeshire, Anglesey, the North coast of Scotland, the Outer Hebrides etc..  A few of them the exact same trips I had 'pipe dream' plans of doing myself this summer/autumn.

I had the time and, being one of the lucky ones, the money to jump in the van, drive up to Oban or Ullapool and catch a ferry but somehow it just didn't seem right.  I envied my pals making those trips and certainly don't begrudge them the beautiful sunsets and the good times, but for me just..  no.  Without making any judgement whatsoever of those who weighed it up and reached a different conclusion to mine, it didn't seem justifiable.

In the absence of clear leadership from the people we still sometimes laughingly refer to as our leaders, our own "social responsibilities" are pretty much all we have left.  But there's a lot of wiggle room in what that means from person to person.  If you think someone's interpretation of what's right should be closer to yours and you feel obliged to try to change their mind, you're going to have to be a lot more persuasive than sanctimonious condemnation like: "Your hobby is much more important than unity in fighting a lethal virus."

Yes, the 'advice' is that you mustn't cross the border from S Yorks into Derbyshire or vice-versa for non-essential reasons (ie: situations in which money is not changing hands.)  Meanwhile there is no such advice against going out for a meal in a busy restaurant, as long as the people you meet there are strangers and not your friends, and while the delightful local pub round the corner is shut again and struggling to survive it's perfectly ok to have a "substantial meal" with your five pints of wife-beater in a f*cking Weatherspoons.

Your post above seems to conflate advice from the Government with advice from the "Government's senior medical advisors".  Having recently elected a UK government of amoral, corrupt, grasping simpletons it's our tragedy that those two things are not the same.

For myself, I haven't formulated my own policy on climbing yet, I don't climb much these days.  What I am going to do is try extra hard to avoid coming into contact with people while I'm in a lower-tier area, stay well away from the village shop, and make damned sure I don't need the services of an MRT from either side of the arbitrary line.  But am I bollocks going to be made to feel guilty about crossing that arbitrary line on the map some place there's nobody else around.

Great post.

The other practical consideration is that the weather is shit so there’s no point heading out. Well may be tomorrow will be dry but it will be pretty chilly in the wind. Which means I’ll probably be going to the wall again, where the Covid risk is much higher but manageable.

The way I see it, restrictions on outdoor activities and travel make no sense whatsoever when places like climbing walls, gyms, some pubs and all shops are still open (the walls were allowed to stay open in Sheffield). I sort of get restrictions on travel for outdoor activities when there’s a total lockdown as in Wales currently, although even then I’d say it’s unnecessary, especially at this time of year when you won’t have people trooping up Snowdon in large numbers. As it is, restrictions on travel in T3 are advisory and so people can make their own judgment calls. Arbitrary lines on a map indeed!

Top post. You really are on a roll.

The primary social responsibility is indoor distancing, masks and hygene; risks are much lower outdoors and easily controlled in climbing, to the level desired...even at somewhere like Stanage. What I choose to do (fairly conservative as we have old vulnerable relatives and friends we are helping) isn't something I wish to impose on others.

I will miss Wharncliffe (my main climbing haunt in covid times) and parking in an industrail area wasn't pissing off any locals and  the crag was quiet... very quiet on obscure routes. The place wasn't even busy when it was one of the best crags in the Peak area open during foot and mouth.

I'll be sticking to the crags within South Yorkshire because that's where I live. I'm not daft enough to imagine that crossing the border to, say, bamford would result in a higher risk of spreading coronavirus but I think travel restrictions seem sensible and would work better if they're relatively simple and free from qualifications/ exceptions.

Plus places that are not Yorkshire are inherently inferior in my view.

There are other, nastier, rules I'm not prepared to follow, and plenty of things that are 'allowed' which I can't justify doing. You might just have to use your judgement.... And ignore Cummings.

Use your judgement, think of others first, generally just don't be a cnt with the guidance (I'm in Scotland, different roolz...).

At the moment I'm not sure what annoys me more, people ignoring what we've been asked to (or not to) do, or spraying it all over social meeja if they decide to do something beyond the guidance....

As peppermill suggests, this is familiar territory for people in Scotland, particularly in the Central Belt areas (it's being done by NHS areas here rather than by councils, although the two overlap), as there's been "advice" about not travelling beyond one's area for quite a while now.

I might be wrong, but from what I'm seeing (in terms of people going walking/cycling/sailing rather than climbing), the advice here is being widely ignored/rejected - including by pretty much every GP I know! I'm currently sticking to it rigorously but feel like I'm definitely in the minority in doing so.

I don't think Tier 3 status means you can mix with other people, provided they're in the same Tier 3 area... 

Well it's rather different. Hospital admission rates are not what they were during the initial lockdown phase.

yes

Snap. If you really must.......keep it quiet.....especially if you really should be setting an example.....

"DROVETOSKYEFROMCENTRALBELTTODOVDIFFONCUILLINHADAWESOMEDAYMUSTTELLWHOLEWORLDRIGHTNOW!!!!!"

Seems to be the order of things. Oh well.

Assume there was a typo in your post. I haven’t looked closely as I’m T2 but I think T3 outdoor mixing is ok subject to SD and rule of 6 and it doesn’t say it has to be with people from the same T3 area. However travel is advised against outside the T3 area so effectively advising against mixing with people outside the T3 area. 

If you look at number of people in hospital and the rate it’s growing at, we’ll be at the same level as back in April by early December. That’s nationwide and masks local pressure points which could be worse I guess.

So it’s not looking good and my money is on a circuit breaker in England in the second half of November once they’ve seen that the Welsh one does work and with a view to protecting the NHS and being able to relax the rules a bit for Xmas. Then another circuit breaker in January.

You are right that the rate of increase in hospital admissions and ICU use is lower than in March / April, thankfully.

What contribution travel for outdoor activities makes is a separate question. Somewhere close to zero would be my guess. Anyway, with the current weather I don’t think we need to worry about high levels of travel for climbing. My only travel this weekend (and for the while week) will be to the supermarket, same as last week...

No. My point was that if you are in an area that requires Tier 3 measures, the prevalence is high enough that you really should be trying to limit your contacts, even within the same Tier 3 area. Otherwise there's a significant risk of spreading the infection.

That's my opinion. It may not tally with official advice. But official advice has got us back into exponential growth 

I you do come from Tier 3 into the Peak Tier 1, can you show us the common courtesy of not stopping at villages, shops, cafes, pubs, petrol stations etc. Even if travelling by bike.

“Stay out of Hathersage deadbeats!”

youtube.com/watch?v=yggQ3HbO0Wg&

Maybe the law is such that the spirit is to ‘continue life as normal as long as you don’t endanger others and yourself’. Perhaps those of us on holiday on Wales will be self-sufficient, never contact others but help a start-up business. And perhaps we’ll get home to Derbyshire, wander up a few routes at quiet crags, and help keep my local open. And no, no law has been broken but I will keep to the spirit of the law which is protect others and the economy.

its not illegal to go to burbage, if you want to do parthian shot, go and do it. how some on here talk. there is more risk from covid than anyone trying to onsight an e9

I agree as far as indoors and prolonged close proximity outdoors (eg pub garden) is concerned and indeed that is why this is not allowed. However outdoor activities with only brief close proximity are far less of an issue, particularly if sport climbing. Of course it is sensible to limit the number of your climbing partners to a small bubble, ideally consisting of people who are all WFH and don't have children in school  but that won't be possible for everyone. 

If you're going to have a circuit breaker, better to do it sooner than later.

There is more risk to others. 

I agree. I'm just saying I doubt BoJo would implement it until it's a bit too late. We should be doing it now, with an extended half term as well.

It is, however, now a criminal offence to climb at Stannington Ruffs

Nah 

It always was 

You would have thought that realigning school terms to have longer half term breaks and a shorter summer holiday was a no-brainer. 

You'd have to give the travel companies enough warning so they could adjust their prices accordingly.

What about all those teachers who need the long summer holiday for their big climbing trip of the year. Half the point of being a teacher!

........and  bump them up to match the new holiday pattern. 

Teachers could perhaps forego such a trip for one year if it proves beneficial in combatting Covid-19?

Sorry, I assumed a permanent change was being proposed. Obviously during the pandemic long foreign trips are not exactly practicable anyway.

Starting schools earlier could have just accelerated this second wave. Extending the half term by a week or two is not good for education or childcare but it’s a small loss in the scheme of things and they could extend next year’s summer term instead. The real issue is that online learning hasn’t been sorted for older year groups and Uni students. The government pissed away the summer, when they should have been sorting things like education, contact tracing and strategy for dealing with the second wave. 

It could be construed that

Is implying that people should ignore advice and do what they enjoy, which is a way of imposing your views on others. In the way that having a loud party in your house (pre-COVID) imposes upon the residents.

Is the individual's get out clause that in their view what they do is low risk, as they percieve it and perfectly legal.

In this way they justify imposing their views on the general populace. Which is why...

could be construed as hypocritical as it implys that an opposing view is invalid because it interfers with what they want to do.

However... I am personally of the view that while schools and colleges are operating as they are the whole thing has become a nonsense. So stay safe, stay alert and just don't go where their are load of people.

So Hope Valley and Ladybower were jammed packed today with visitors (there was a constant stream of cars leaving Sheffield, so I'm told).

So thanks a lot to all those inconsiderate Tier 3 ********.

Brilliant, you **** it up in your own area and get moved into Tier 3, then all come out en masse to a Tier 1 area to share your **** up with us.

Yes I am pissed off. 

Still loads of cars parked all up the side of the road over Curbar Gap an hour ago too. I guess they might all have come from Chesterfield and so on, but I doubt it.

I guess there is no ban on travel and the risk is pretty low outside so people are possibly even more likely to go out for a walk than before when so many other things seem like a bad idea.

Having said that the parking along the Curbar Gap road and down past the Grouse Inn on Froggat Hill has been very busy for many weeks.

We've not messed up our own area (what does own area even mean!). We've largely followed government advice which in a high population region has been inadequate to stop cases rising, and was not even expected or planned to do so. The risk of outdoors transmission appears negligible, the travel restrictions are advisory. There is no special privileges associated with living in the Peak. Enjoy the benefits of a lower population density by all means, but target the government, not people who happen to end up living in a city, often with little choice in the matter.

Cycled passed Padley Gorge and Stanage today and was a lot quieter, you could have parked in the nominated parking first time all year, so don't be pissed off, you might have been told incorrect.

You've been asked to not travel from Tier 3 to Tier 1.

That was clearly not being respected today.

Please show some courtesy and respect for the communities who are still in Tier 1.

All this tier 1 2 3 talk has brought out the "locals only" and "get back up your own end" attitude. Since when has a County border had a checkpoint or border control 

I went for a quick spin about 3pm: it was still very busy as around Ladybower and Stanage.

Parking was bad at Planation. Car Park full and all the verges packed.

New Road out of Bamford was also rammed with parked cars.

Personally, I'll obey that mainly, but then again I have also gone far above the post first lock down restrictions too. You can't expect the masses to so the same as a favor. If stopping the travel that annoyed you today is critical for covid transmission reduction it is the sole responsibility of the government to say so, clearly without ambiguity.

Brought it back you mean.  The clocks went back today - to March!

I have some sympathy to ChrisJD's pov, but might add to Sankey's remarks above that among other things Sheffield has two huge universities.  It wasn't the decision of the people of the city for all those students to return to do almost all of their studenting remotely anyway from their overpriced accommodation. 

But suuure, we're all "Tier 3 ********s", whatever.

Honestly though, anyone who went to Ladybower and was shocked to find it crowded today, a glorious autumnal sunny Sunday after a dismal rainy Saturday, either went there intending to be shocked by the crowds, doesn't know the area at all, or is an idiot.

I was a good boy today and stayed on the "Tier 3 *******" 's side of the line.  (Oh, I just realised - except for almost exactly one mile in the middle of the drive home.)

The parking around Damflask was chocka, Low Bradfield was as busy as I've seen it for a while (comparable to a normal summer weekend).  Lots of people parked up on the road along the East side of Agden reservoir (more, I think, than I've ever seen before).  Later on, quite impressively, there was a fair sized gang of what I'm guessing was the Sheffield 'Plungers' swimming there.  As far as I could tell there wasn't a soul climbing at Agden Rocher.

I was, what I like to call, 'running' on a fairly obscure route that I've almost always had to myself in the past no matter how busy the Peak.  I met people on several of the paths where I've never met anyone before.  (In one case a big group of bobble-hatted pensioners on the v-narrow path up the side of Rocher End Brook, quite a lot of amiable thrashing about in the undergrowth and "after you", "no, after you I insist!" ensued as we just about got past each other in a suitably socially distanced fashion.)

I only labelled the 'inconsiderate' as ********s in my ranty post

But 'Tier 3 ********s' does has a nice ring to it

Unfortunately this is the problem with going out and expecting that you will have a risk free contact free walk/run, wherever or whenever you choose. Other like minded people try to do the right thing and walk /run the lesser walked ways at less popular times and thereby negate the previous low risk nature of the routes, by increasing the volume of traffic on them but doing so with the best intentions. Catch 22 .v Covid19.

In terms of schools, regular testing of both samples of pupils and staff would help. Perhaps, having decided to keep them open, whatever happens, the government are not really interested in the true picture of infection in schools. The children of parents who are self isolating due to close contacts becoming infected are still attending school. I have had this situation  in my class. This seems a shit idea really, especially as the parent in question was told that they only needed to be tested if symptoms developed.

All schools have detailed home learning plans in place in order to be ready, come the next lockdown. The government have completely failed to deliver laptops they promised for children who receive fsms. We are still waiting for these more than six weeks after completing paperwork. 

Extending the summer term has little educational benefit. Exam classes have finished in secondary schools and our primary pupils are ready for a break. You might be surprised by the work tackled by all teachers during evenings, weekends and holidays!

I have not travelled out of the SW at all this year apart from two days at the end of August when I worked filming for two days in the peak. I camped in my own tent at the Downes for one night and had some misgivings about doing even this. 

In contrast, the south west has been even busier than usual with both climbers and other tourists visiting from all over the place. These people have been eating out, visiting shops etc. 

I don’t envy anyone in Tier 3 restrictions but it isn’t hard to understand that respecting these rules might help. People need to make their own choices but may need to adopt a degree of social responsibility for the good of all. 

James

Were the tier 1 pubs like the Yorkshire Bridge and Ladybower Inn checking where their customers had come from? I assume no tier 1 residents were going to the Sheffield supermarkets either.

This is just an unworkable farce, it'll be even more so around the south/west Yorkshire conurbations.

Still finding avoiding folk easy although I trebled my no. met on a hill since the start of Summer yesterday on Cnoc Fyrish.

That was quite an unpleasant post.

Yes, the government’s failure to provide laptops is a scandal really (just to add to the list).

Cornwall’s infection rate is pretty low so all those tourists weren’t too bad after all. I imagine a lot of businesses would have folded if everyone stayed away. Of course there’s more Covid around now so the situation has moved on but equally there aren’t as many tourists either presumably. 

It wasn't at all a problem, merely an observation.  I guess passing the group of bobble-hats at the side of Rocher End Brook could have been tense had they been grumpy or had I been grumpy, but as it was it was actually kind of fun.  My run was more than adequately risk-free, but of course that probably wouldn't have happened wherever I chose.  It's not rocket science though - if the reservoir has a pretty path around the water's edge, that'll be the busy one.

Based on comments above about Padley and other places being quiet today, and the degree of busy-ness I saw, I think it would be fair to assume that quite a lot of Sheffield folk headed out to explore some of the bits of the Peak inside the Sheffield City limits.  For many of them maybe for the first time.  It was a beautiful day and these are dark times, bloody good luck to them.

I wonder what Langsett was like today?  Wouldn't be at all surprised if it gave Ladybower a run for it's money.

Do you think there’s any meaningful risk in meeting someone else on a footpath, even if it’s narrow? Hold your breath and look alway if you’re really bothered...

There were some very unpleasant home-made road signs put up around Ladybower and other places pre-lockdown, I hope we won't be seeing those coming back.  (Just to be clear - I don't think for a second that ChrisJD was responsible for any of those!)

Boris f*cking Johnson eh?  He wins an election and promises to heal the division in our society and bring the country together - ten months later Westminster just about declares war on Manchester and tensions are rising on the border between Derbyshire and South Yorkshire.

Higher Sharpnose tomorrow for a bit of guidebook stuff. Unlikely that social distancing will be a problem there!

James

There was definitely a fair bit of local pitchfork rattling during lockdown.

We are all still a bit scarred by the post-lock down madness that engulfed the Peak; it was highly unpleasant (as in actually very unpleasant, not just faux unpleasant from a few internet "***").  So the locals are understandably a bit tetchy.

What is local? I work in the Peak but live in Sheffield and many in the Peak work in the surrounding towns. At work I interact with sometimes several hundred people yet a walk or climb in 'your area' is only advised against and is of negligible risk by comparison. With piss poor leadership and examples from those in charge is it any wonder people have made their own mind up and the peak was rammed doing things they love most without any risk to local populations. Where they came into contact was more than likely through the many local businesses that rely on visitors for much of their income. 

Within the context of Covid controls, it's where you reside.

I was going to ask this in a seperate thread but it seems to relate a little to this thread.  I can see the arguments for and against travelling from Tier 1 to Tier 3 areas to climb outside.  I can see the arguments of going from Tier 3 to Tier 1 too.  However, has anyone mentioned doing so to climb indoors?

The reason i ask is that i have had to make the choice recently.  I am based in a Tier 1 area.  There are some fantastic walls in Manchester and Leeds (Tier 3) which i would very much like to visit but i have decided against it based on the premise that I would be introducing more risk to my own area and taking uneccessary risk to an already Tier 3 area.  However, is it against any rules?

Social media is absolutely full of people starting to travel the country, mixing with other climbers from different Tiers.  For balance i did travel to Hull to climb as they were Tier 1 which is the same as ours.

Leeds is currently Tier2, it is not in South Yorkshire.

OK base it on Manchester which is Tier 3

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-covid-alert-levels-what-you-need-to-know#...

Tells you what you need to know.

Ironically Station Road in Deepcar was absolutley choca on Sunday but it wasn't climbers fleeing Stanage it seemed to be just people out for a walk. I think there were 4 or 5 pairs of climbers, some at Long Jonhs Stride.

So I take it you aren’t going into Sheffield or any other T3 or T2 areas for supermarkets or any other purposes.

Hi Misha 
We’ve not been going into Sheffield since March for shopping. During lockdown, we started supporting local shops and using the supermarkets in Bakewell. We did start going back to the Depot which was great, but now we’ll be using The climbing Unit in Derby (heading over there today), and the Hope Valley bouldering Wall until the restrictions are over. I think I was going into Sheffield out of habit having lived there so long and not engaged with where I live.

There are large Tescos in Macclesfield and Whaley Bridge, both T1. Large Morrisons in Buxton and Chapel, also T1. There would be no need to go into a T3 area even if you did want to go to a supermarket.

Shopping - No.

Pleasure - No.

I've worked from home for most of the last 20 years

Might need to go into a T2/T3 to briefly see a a site or two for work in the coming months, but these are usually open land, might be with one other person, socially distanced.

You'd better change your user name before the neighbours have finished sharpening up their pitchforks.

In reply to ChrisJD:

Fair enough. Still, I don't get this 'keep out of my area' attitude, coming from someone who is into outdoor activities and directed at other people who are heading into the countryside for outdoor activities. The risk of transmission outdoors is very low. There is some risk if people are going to local shops and cafes but that's less of an issue now that most people are wearing face masks and, besides, the local shops and cafes need those customers. In any case, a lot of (most?) people going for a walk / climb / cycle won't be using locals shops and cafes anyway. Most climbers certainly won't be!

I get that the parking has been rammed this summer but that's a factor of insufficient parking at the best of times, people avoiding public transport and fewer people going abroad. Exceptional circumstances on top of an existing issue.

... because that's the advice for those living in a Tier 3 area:

"we are advising people not to travel into or out of an area if it has been categorised as a very high alert level area. This is part of wider measures to help manage the risk of transmission. You can continue to travel into or out of very high alert level areas if you need to for work, education, to access youth services or because of caring responsibilities."

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-covid-alert-level-very-high

It's a straight forward clear piece of advice; so struggling to understand why you don't get it? (which is different to liking it or agreeing with it).

If you want to ignore that advice, don't expect much sympathy from residents in the Tier 1 area you visit. 

Can I give you some "advice" just let it be and let people enjoy the outdoors, lots of space for everyone, of course you don't have to take the advice as you might not agree with it but that's you to you.

If everybody in the country had taken the "advice" we wouldn't have a Covid problem now

If you don't follow the straightforward advice, don't expect me to condone you ignoring it.

I was down Millers Dale cycling the other day, during the Manc negotiations, so essentially tier 3.
No one questioned where we where from and quite happily took £20 off us for beers.
Closest 'contact' with anyone, was a matter of seconds ordering the drinks, with a plastic screen between us, hands sanitised on pub entry.

I have less than zero respect for this useless, clueless Govt, so they can shove their advice.
And I'm certainly not going to take any from a NIMBY on an internet forum telling me where I can and cannot go.

Wandering around the countryside is not going spread disease.

Simply avoiding actual person to person contact, close face to face encounters and keeping my distance has kept me disease free to date, and I've been out and about virtually every day since this nightmare began.

And by continuing to go out and about you can ensure that this nightmare continues.  But at least you get to ignore the guidance and carry on.

So, thanks.

Yay. Too right. Why should we change our behaviour because of a lethal global disease. I'm certainly not changing mine. It's all other people's fault after all.

That is undoubtedly true but there's a difference between being safe and following rules for the sake of it, and to my mind the former is more important. I can see the more conservatively minded folks' side when it comes to climbing, as social distancing effectively is not always possible and meeting up with someone from a high risk area could be argued a poor idea. As far as hillwalking goes however, I remain to be convinced that travelling to a remote hill on my own is causing any harm whatsoever.     

There's probably a group of mates drinking in their local pub discussing how they have risk assessed their session and bemoaning the irresponsibility of those risk takers going climbing when the NHS is over stressed. 

The problem is that everybody sees these issues through their own lens and justifies their actions accordingly

Now if the nation could all agree to follow all of the advise recognizing that some of it may not be as essential as others then we may just be able to  get some herd compliance if not immunity

I guess it depends if the drinking in the pub is within the rules for that particular area. I condemn some of the flagrant breaking of social distancing rules you see in news reports etc, but I do think it's asking a bit much to ask people not to do things which are perfectly legal and expect them to comply. 

Yeah. I mean if I break in to your house and take your car keys, take your car and then abandon it, I'm not legally committing burglary. It's a bit much to ask people not to do that.

And this is just a lethal infectious disease so why should we not do something just because the Govt/NHS/PHE ask us not to...

Well there now seems to be a chance of a total March type lockdown before Christmas with compulsory restrictions because folk haven’t followed the advisory restrictions 

In a nutshell

I think you'll find that's not legal!

If the govt don't want people to mix in pubs, close the f*****g pubs. And compensate the pub staff. Ditto for cafes, restaurants shops, cinemas, call centres, offices etc etc.

(BTW I haven't been in a pub since March, and only a few cafes - normally sat outside)

It is not. Millers Dale is Derbyshire Dales District Council, which is Tier 1.

I think WC meant Manchester as tier 3, although not actually confirmed at the time due to the negotiations

For goodness sake it isn't people foing for a walk or climb outside half a mile into your area that are driving the increase in cases. It's the illegal house parties, until recently completely legal pub use which should have been shut weeks ago, vast numbers of students being thrown together, eat out to help spread covid, a shit track and trace, and testing setup which the government have had months to plan for. 

France just announced a lockdown

"The new measures he (Macron) announced - which come into force on Friday - will mean people have to stay in their homes except to buy essential goods, seek medical attention, or use their daily one-hour allocation of exercise."

The news this evening points to a similar escalation in infections, hospitalizations and deaths coming to the UK.  In the March first wave it was getting warmer and sunnier.  Now with cold damp winder (normal flue session) upon us there are fears that the second wave could be worse than the first.

The prospects of another draconian lockdown like that France has adopted seems likely for the UK?

As far as I understand it, the main reason why flu is prevalent in wintertime is that people spend more time indoors in close proximity to each other. It will be interesting to see whether our widely adopted coronavirus control measures (social distancing) therefore leads to a reduction in flu cases this winter. 

Advice is not mandatory. What is the harm in someone from Sheffield climbing at a crag in Derbyshire? Is it every village for itself now? It’s a sad state of affairs. Should people in cities put up ‘country folk not welcome’ signs outside ‘their’ facilities - hospitals, universities, museums, supermarkets, you name it... It’s a slippery road and the country is already badly divided along many lines.

I get that there is a concern if people are visiting pubs and cafes for example. But most climbers aren’t and I’m certainly not. The risk of transmission in an outdoor environment to people other than your climbing partner is negligible. So to my mind, it’s irrational to oppose people getting out for outdoor activities if they aren’t actually mixing with the locals. 

That’s a bit simplistic. The issue is that the advice was all over the place and there was no strategy. In August we were urged to eat out to help out. In September the schools and unis went back. BoJo said we’ll be back to normal by Xmas. Various politicians (not least Sunak) pop up now and then saying we need to learn to live with it. If there were clear rules and a zero Covid strategy, I would agree with you but that is very far from the reality, which is a confused mix of contradictory tactical moves without any strategy whatsoever. All we can do is judge for ourselves what is or isn’t risky. 

First time round in March nobody really knew how risky things were; maybe opening a gate which someone else might open an hour later would almost certainly lead to a cascade of deaths. This time round it is different; we know that outdoors is very low risk and surface transmission isn't such a big deal. So, while blanket non-mandatory advice is needed in order to keep things simple and to make people think about their behaviour, in practice it seems perfectly reasonable that, within that framework, people are going to weigh up what behaviour actually does or does not actually pose a non-negligible risk and act accordingly. The problem is the people who just completely ignore the advice and do whatever the hell they like without giving a toss about the risk.

Perhaps by continuing to go out people can ensure that they keep physically and mentally fit and can continue to be useful members of society? I take Covid seriously but I also take a rational approach. What is the actual risk of doing something? At T2, there are things I can do which I won’t do. At T3 (it’s only a matter of time for the West Midlands), there are things I would be advised not to do but which I would be happy doing. As well as things I could still do which I wouldn’t do now and certainly wouldn’t do then (such as going to the pub, even on my own).

If the government actually ordered a lockdown like in Wales, I would support it because I think it’s needed. Not because my activities spread the virus but because overall it’s needed and I’m happy to share the pain with everyone else. What I don’t agree with is advice which tells me not to do something which I think is actually fine, while allowing things which I don’t think are ok. Shut it all down for a bit, that’s the only effective way.

Was at the wall tonight. 5 other people there including the staff. Sanitise / wash hands before and after and on getting home, plus change clothes and clean phone with surgical spirit, live alone and WFH anyway so no one to infect.  Walking back just after 10pm, group of pissed students (more than six), no SD. May be they live together but I doubt all of them do. Where’s the risk of spread? And yet the pubs are open.

And people visiting their parents / grandparents. My biggest issue is not whether I can go climbing (not been anyway for a couple of weekend as can’t be asked with the weather), it’s persuading my parents that it’s right for me not to visit them (they are keen on me visiting regardless).

Exactly. That said, I still try to minimise surface contact, just in case. Clip sticks are handy for opening gates sometimes!

A non-extended walking pole is really useful for gates etc. I habitually carry one round with me on the hill these days - have had a couple of injuries in the past few years and a pole feels like a sensible precaution. I carry it in hand and only rarely use it as an actual walking pole, but it's come into its own during Covid re gates etc. Still using it like that every bit as much as in spring/summer - eg several times today (which saw the year's 67th ascent of my local hill, in unexpectedly decent conditions).

One could argue that if you live alone, work from home and are never in close proximity to anyone else any other time (save for going to shops wearing a face covering), there is an extremely low risk of passing anything on to your parents and you could be an 'extended household'. Of course, going climbing (other than soloing, bouldering, shunting) introduces a potential pathway of infection.  

I was talking about this with my Mrs last night.

I pointed out to her that if our older daughters met up with grandparents and the virus was passed on, whilst their grandparents might not be bothered( because they want to see their grandchildren etc etc),our daughters would be mortified. Grandchildren do not want to basically kill their grandparents and will have to live far longer with the consequences in that knowledge.

You have to see it through both sets of eyes.

I'd disagree on the pub point. Unlike houses, pubs and restaurants are much more controlled environments. You'd be unlikely to spread a contagion in a commercial kitchen in the UK even before the pandemic due to some fairly stringent hygiene regulations. I'd much sooner visit a pub than, say, a climbing gym.

It's just been announced that the whole of the High Peak plus Staffordshire are moving to level two from Saturday.

Derbyshire Dales & High Peak (and the rest of Derbyshire) are heading into Tier 2 from midnight Saturday.

... Your continued support to help prevent us from going into Tier 3 would be appreciated ...

It is interesting that the new tier system in Scotland announced today seems to allow travel out of level 3 areas into level 1 and 2 areas for outdoor exercise as an exemption to the general travel restrictions. 

You may have missed the qualification. It is 'local' outdoor excercise.

Now define local... 

It talks of it being OK to leave one's council area for "local outdoor exercise", whatever that means. For people living close to the edge of a council area (eg me and I think also you) that's useful and sensible, although whether one should go from a Level 3 area to a Level 2 or 1 one for exercise is unclear. Where I am it appears to be OK to travel locally between Level 3 areas for exercise (eg from the east side of Stirling to the Hillfoots in Clackmannanshire), but whether connecting Stirling/Clacks with Argyll and Bute or Perth and Kinross (both Level 2) is regarded as OK I don't know. I suspect considerable numbers of hillgoers will continue to pile out of Greater Glasgow to lower-level areas regardless, for as long as it is just "advice" or "guidance", at least.

Perhaps get all the doctors etc who live in the peak but work in the surrounding hospitals to stay at home. Or petition all the local businesses that survive on visitor income that they should ID customers and go bust. Or you can pay my wage because I don't have the luxury of sitting on my high horse working from home taking such simplistic views that everyone else who doesn't live in the Peak is at fault for rising infection rates.

You'd better check the news

West Yorks is Tier 3 from Monday.  Peak I think will all be 2 or 3 by then (as Derbyshire is going to 2).

Don't tell me they've moved the boundaries again!

Only in the speech - it's not in the documentation.  I have to travel from East Lothian to Stirling to be in a crowded room all day. I have no qualms whatsoever of making the same journey to be on my own outside and will do so.

It's still not in South Yorkshire !

I see what you mean. One or other is an error. Perhaps it will be clarified. I suspect they don't understand quite what a difference it makes to many of us. Maybe it is deliberate obfuscation.

That word 'essential' is in the mix again too. 

No problem! It’s raining at the weekend and 
My next day off is Tuesday so if I come it won’t be til then. I’m in tier one. It would only be bouldering. I would use alcohol gel before I touch the hallowed gritstone (and alcohol after). 
 

I’m not taking anything for granted though , by Tuesday the other three horsemen of the apocalypse may have turned up....War, famine and national lockdown to add to pestilence. 

Seriously though good luck everyone, whatever Tier you are in we are all going to lose some friends. 

The idea that East Lothian is subject to the same level of restriction as Glasgow and the two Lanarkshire councils is remarkable but unsurprising. There's a lot of politics (and a debatable amount of science) in the Scottish aspect of all this.

My main risk is going to the wall.

It's perfectly within the rules to form a bubble with my parents, except that my brother (who also lives alone) wouldn't be able to do that as well, nor would I be able to form a bubble with him (which would make more sense given he lives within walking distance whereas my parents are a 2 hour drive away). I imagine many families have been grappling with this issue.

It goes back to my point about some things being allowed but not necessarily being sensible things to do, while other things are not advised despite being sensible things to do. I could form a bubble with my parents but should I? I don't want to unwittingly pass the virus on to them.

An interesting fact: according to the official government website, my area of central Birmingham (so central I can see the council house from my windows) has a lower Covid rate than the Hathersage / Tideswell area and Hope Valley. This has been the case for a while. Not massively lower but noticeably so. Of course some other areas of the Peak have lower rates and other areas of Birmingham have higher rates. There could also be differences in the average age of the population and hence percentage of symptomatic cases, which are the ones that would get tested mostly. It could also be that the number of people living in my area is less than usual at the moment due to some people having moved away from the city to live with parents etc. Still, it's an interesting fact. 

How is sitting at a pub table next to several other people in any way controlled, especially after a few drinks?

Quote of the thread so far!

The only way you'd be sat at the same table next to other people is if you already met the social contact guidelines for the tier you're in (ie same household, rule of six etc).

Other tables are separated by at least 1m and sanitized before being occupied by another party. Compare that to sharing multiple routes or seating areas at a wall.

The trouble is quite pubs, people having a meal and a drink and climbers wearing masks at the wall is completely different from the carnage of those going out just to get drunk and probably continuing the party at home after closing time it. Media have reported on large pre restriction change drinking and the number of house parties  shut down, which is likely only a tiny percentage of those happening. One student I know told me the night before the pubs closed in Sheffield they went out for a 'big night' the apparently consumed amount of alcohol was staggering, perhaps they all social distanced the whole time but I suspect that is highly unlikely. Thankfully those days are behind me and my activities are largely unaffected by restrictions but I can emphasize that their way of life is being harder hit than mine probably for the benefit of everyone, this still doesn't make it easy.

It's interesting that a simple request for people to follow the advice has got you so incensed.

This is my point. In T1 and T2 you can go to the pub with up to 5 non household people and crowd round a table for however long. In T2 that’s only allowed outdoors but still that’s close proximity. I just can’t see how this is safe.

I’m happy I can mitigate surface transmission risk at the wall to a low level. It’s close contact I’m concerned about - and that’s easy to avoid by going to the wall at quiet times. Whereas the pub is all about close contact unless you go on your own. 

That's not true: in tier 1 diferent households should be social distancing from each other at the same table indoors by at least 1m and by 2m if possible. In tier 2 different households cannot meet indoors (unless in a support bubble).

Notwithstanding Offwidth's clarification on the precise rules - this isn't really anything to do with the pubs themselves - in that I don't see what difference it would make to transmission rates if the pubs were closed. Better that people meet in the pub, where distancing is enforced (by the positioning of tables if nothing else) and strict hygiene guidelines are adhered to, than just go round each other's houses or other locations where none of these things can be expected.

You are assuming people would go to each other’s houses instead. Some would, many won’t. Also at least they won’t be in contact with staff and other customers.

Warwick Uni study reported on today saying Eat Out to Help Out contributed to spread.

A bit of anecdotal evidence. Just been for a wander round where I live, which is next to a lot of bars and restaurants. One of the restaurants had a group of half a dozen middle aged men at a table. Perhaps using the dodgy work meeting exemption? They were just finishing and left to pile into two taxis. No SD or face masks whatsoever. In the restaurant next to them was a family. I’m surprised they didn’t ask to move as the restaurant was otherwise empty. This is precise what I’m talking about. Shut it all down or reduce to takeaway only. 

I don't think anyone is incensed, but let's treat people like adults. Everyone should know what the advice is for their own area/tier and the government has already requested that the advice is followed. So it's hardly necessary for others to do the same, nor is it likely to do much except annoy folk who already consider the advice carefully as part of their ongoing coronavirus risk assessment.  

Looking like lock down again from next week. 

Lucky im a couple of miles from the roaches, one benefit is there will be lots of parking again and a quiet crag. 

Graham 18.21 Thurs sounded pretty incensed to me.

https://www.ft.com/content/2782655a-0441-4d38-bb03-5c4e67ead110

"A coronavirus variant that originated in Spanish farm workers has spread rapidly through much of Europe since the summer, and now accounts for the majority of new Covid-19 cases in several countries — and more than 80 per cent in the UK. An international team of scientists that has been tracking the virus through its genetic mutations has described the extraordinary spread of the variant, called 20A.EU1, in a research paper to be published on Thursday. Their work suggests that people returning from holiday in Spain played a key role in transmitting the virus across Europe, raising questions about whether the second wave that is sweeping the continent could have been reduced by improved screening at airports and other transport hubs."

Clearly people going on holiday for a week or longer with overnight stays and frequenting bars and restaurants is a million miles away from people going climbing at Stanage. 

I would support a national lockdown as I think it’s needed but I won’t begrudge you being able to easily get to the Roaches. Mind you, with the weather as it is, doesn’t really matter anyway...

But it's all about unknowingly spreading it.

The general mindset exhibited by many throughout this thread, when extrapolated over a large population, (namely the self justification, the belligerence, the self entitlement and bending the advice to suit not changing behaviour) is the reason why we are where we are. 

You reap what you sow.

Looks like Lockdown#2 from Monday.

It's horrendous in leek today. 

So you blame the increase of cases on a few people that don't wear masks and not on the fact its a contagious virus that easily passes between people. People that cannot help but have contact with others. 

Well done, I actually feel embarrassed for you 

Where did the poster mention masks specifically?

I feel embarrassed for you that you can't read a post correctly (in the context of this whole thread).

Boris press conference at 4pm today

If only they would behave like adults.

But many don't. They behave like spoilt little children.

I agree about unknowingly spreading it but you have to look at the risks. It’s the same arguments from back in spring all over again. We engage in outdoor activities which are inherently low risk other than to your immediate partner(s) - so it’s really important to think about who you are going climbing / biking with. However the risk to other people is minimal or zero.

Anyway, national lockdown is on the way and I would support it because it’s needed, although same as last time I will not criticise people heading out climbing or doing other outdoors activities in a safe and low key way. Even low incidence areas like the SW are forecast to run out of hospital capacity in a matter of weeks. Like it or not, we’re all in this together. Hope Sunak gets the cheque book out.