UKH

Should there be better education on ethics of climbing outdoors for new climbers?

Particularly for those usually less exposed to outdoor climbing (ie Londoners). This is in light of many new climbers climbing on wet grit/sandstone (most likely lack of education as opposed to intentional disregard).

I feel like it's quite a critical yet overlooked topic in many of our indoor climbing gyms, where new climbers most likely start their climbing careers off. Should organisations like the BMC be doing a bit more to tackle mishaps like that happening as climbing sees unprecedented increase in population?

no

If I didn't climb on wet grit it would severely reduce my routes for a year.  Don't get me started on the ethics of wet vs moist vs damp vs "when it's dry it's easier". Is it unethical because I should be in the cafe?

Please tell me you're joking

Climbing walls have nothing to do with outdoor climbing.

I guess it could be brought into the school curriculum. 

You're right but people don't know that.

It's more complicated than that with the explosion in social media.  We are trying hard to help clarify the ethics locally as there is a high influx on new visitors.

A quick Instagram search for local crags reveals beautiful films of absolutely terrible very damaging practices shared and viewed by over 30,000 people for one video alone. Comments like "let's do this" etc overflowing. Emails and comments asking to remove the video are just ignored...

No.  People can learn about outdoor climbing if it interests them.   An indoor course for new climbers should be about climbing indoors.

I've been climbing indoors several times a week for years and could count the number of times I've climbed outdoors in the UK on the fingers of one hand.

Yes they do. Indoor climbing walls are where many climbers now start climbing with ambitions of getting outdoors.

In my eyes it could be as simple as some basic tenets on a poster, or a leaflet someone could pick up to educate themselves on the basics.

As you say a large portion of 'indoor climbers' may never touch real rock. There are however many that want to and do - a proportion of who have no idea they can not crank on soaking wet gritstone or cover the rock with tick marks.

I thought this existed already (I might have dreamt it? BMC "Respect the rock"?).

I don't like the idea of ethics and etiquette being formalised, with some authority that holds meetings and decides what the rules are (yeah I know this is what the BMC does and I am grateful for their work on deciding which pegs to pull out sea cliffs etc, but it could potentially go too far). On the other hand I don't like people being dicks at the crag just because they don't know any better. It's a delicate balance. 

Flyers/leaflets about not doing stuff that knackers routes/problems at climbing walls would be a good part of that balance, I'd be happy for my membership fee (of the wall or BMC) to fund it.

You are making a reverse connection.

Each to their own so I'm not having a go at you here but I find that very strange.

I'm curious as to what motivates you to climb indoors regularly for years whilst simultaneously having no desire to climb outside. Do you walk, camp, mountain bike or similar in the outdoors (as in hills and mountains not just outside) or are you not an 'outdoorsy' type of person.

Like I said, you can do as you please but I'm genuinely curious.

Funny, I grew up in the North. I remember at the start of my climbing career cycling to Parbold, Anglezarke and Wilton - a good distance from Ormskirk. We accepted the state of the rock as it was. If it was damp, we still climbed.

The rock isn't frozen in aspic. Things change. The Bonatti Pillar fell down. Most of the grit edges have been quarried at some stage in their existence. It's not a natural landscape - it's a man-made one, a green desert according to George Monbiot. 

If folk want to go and climb on wet grit, then celebrate it, not condemn it.

Steve

If I lived somewhere with plenty of bouldering or sport climbing nearby it would be different but I'm not willing to drive 100 miles to get a few hours climbing.   So indoors and the occasional holiday someplace like Font works for me.

IMHO the Scottish climate and hills are more suited to hill walking than roped climbing or bouldering when you've got to plan in advance.   If you have a hill walking trip planned you don't have to chuck it in if it starts to rain and midges aren't a problem when you are moving.

Wow. While I accept that the state of rock will change over time for numerous reasons, I beleive we should as climbers as reasonably possible maintain the rock for the enjoyment of others. One compelling reason I climb outside is to be able to climb a route that someone else has might have climbed 30 years ago and that someone might climb 30 years on. History is what makes climbing culture so rich. There is no need to damage the rock unnecessarily if avoidable.

Thanks for the reply, sorry I forgot to check this thread before now, its almost as if there's some big event going on to distract me .

I was going to say is it the rain and the midges but I thought that was perhaps a bit cheeky, though that's why 95% of the climbing I've done in Scotland has been winter climbing not rock.

Have you not thought about heading down to the Lakes, they do actually get some quite long dry spells, or Northumbria, even closer and one of the driest parts of the UK? I know both are pretty much all trad but there is bouldering.

Wait a minute, what, really? 

Sorry for the late reply - been away for work and now catching up on the important stuff in the airport lounge

So almost 30 years ago I climbed Direct Nose Route (Summer) (HVS 5a) with the The Tower Finish (E1 5c) on  Sgurr an Fhidhleirin the highlands. An utterly awesome route - go and do it!

Anyhow, there were fresh nail scratches all the way up it. Now, I wasn't too sloppy as a winter climber in those days -but this seemed like science fiction. Like pulling up to the traffic lights in a Mini, looking over and seeing Lewis Hamilton in his F1 car next to you. On the one hand it blew my mind that it was possible, but at the same time I was utterly elated that someone had the vision and the ability to climb it.

Torridonian sandstone is not that different from gritstone. Was that winter route an act of vandalism or an act of genius ??

Steve

What a depressing thread, and the responses made by dunnyg and Mike P are unbelievably selfish or maybe they really don't understand that climbing on wet sandstone puts the rock itself at risk? If so they too need educating.

My knowledge of scottish winter climbing and similar disciplines are non-existence so it's probably not my place to comment on that one as it obviously involves different conditions to be climbable.

As for other dry forms of rock climbing, to me it seems logical to respect the rock, particularly those that a climb has been established up and even more so if it gets the attention of the wider climbing populous. Isn't this just common decency? Similar to how one wouldn't just go and needlessly damage a significant public and ancient monument.

What's most disappointing here is the lack of response against such attitudes. I honestly thought there'd be a bit more input on this topic, particularly since so many on this forum are so quick to denigrate others once they've done something 'wrong'.

When I started climbing at age 20 in 1983 it was to reach places I couldn't get to by simply hiking. For the first few years I climbed in plimsolls and two pairs of socks to stop them flopping about. Developed great arm/finger strength... And devoured all the books on climbing I could find. I was steeped in climbing lore, and had a traditional outlook on its practice.

I felt/feel that if a route was impossible, it was just because I wasn't good enough - yet. I was horrified to read the account of the 1970 Maestri ascent of Cerro Torre: a gas compressor, bolts! Jeez...

I like the idea of taking nothing but photos and leaving nothing but foot prints, or maybe chalk marks. Destroying the rock by bolting, wearing it away cos it's too friable, cutting chunks out (ice tools on the White Cliffs...) - it all betrays the efforts of future, better climbers. And if a mountain is just plain impregnable, shouldn't nature be allowed to win once in a while?

I've wandered around the topic a bit, but I guess the basic point is 'educate new climbers' before they venture outside as to how best to develop our beloved activity in harmony with the natural world. Climbing walls, clubs and so on could go a long way to doing just that. An essential part of their remit, I should think.

I have two degrees in geology and a 3rd on the way, I've been climbing on grit for over 10 years, still actively doing it, so I would say I am reasonably well educated on the subject.

I guess that means I am unbelievably selfish because I don't think large organisations need to do more to prevent people climbing wet grit. Call it out when you see it seems a better approach to me. Why don't you spend your free time at plantation telling people when the rock is too wet? Or start your own campaign? Or contact someone that has the time and resources to do a campaign if you feel so strongly? Or you could continue to post insults on a forum thread, from which no action that has any baring on how many people climb wet grit will arise.

And how many times do people starting out on a Geology course go and practice with their shiny new rock hammers on rock that can do without such damage ??

If the rock is too wet, then sensible people are not going to be anywhere near the plantation - because to climb there would be vandalism.

The suggestion is to educate people so they don't go and damage the rock by climbing on it when it will be damaged. By the way - it's BEARING not BARING. But then I expect no better from someone who is on for their third degree in Geology, try and get one in English.

Ethics of hammering is covered in lectures before students go outside, so pretty rarely these days, and if you do have problem with this you can contact the offending university, the British Geological Survery or the geological society of london and they can usually point you in the right direction. Action will usually be taken by the university pretty rapidly, and I would encourage you to do this.

My degrees aren't helping me understand your logic, that is for sure! I don't think it is the responsibility of the BMC or climbing walls in london to sort this problem. I think calling it out when you see it is the only real solution, this is my opinion. 

I would change your statment to: If the rock is too wet, then people who dont know better are going to be at the plantation - because they dont understand that to climb there would be vandalism.

Not sure what my geology degrees have to do with spelling, but I do know a reasonable amount about rocks. 

one word answers tend to illicit over judgemental response on the internet...anyway, I think your idea of word of mouth is just not enough today. It might have worked in the genesis of the modern climbing scene decades ago when the community was smaller and tighter, but like it or not the climbing scene is growing and I think there needs to be a slightly more methodical and easy to access solution to the average new punter. I think it really is as simple as publishing simple digital/printed media and distributing it to indoor walls. As for the role of the BMC I think it is absolutely within their remit to educate climbers on outdoor manners (as they do) - their entire purpose is to protect the climbers' interest - but I think the exposure the average new climber is getting to this, needs to be revisited. Perhaps my perspective is slightly skewed as an indoor bred city dwelling climber, but I do know there are lots of us indoor bred city dwelling climbers heading outside and with no clue.

Wow. How do you manage to be wrong on every point and be so blinkered not to see it?

...and we used to hang people, and drink driving was much more of a thing... We became more enlightened

Fair enough. I don't think it will make much difference, given there are already campaigns such as the BMCs #respecttherock, and in most if not all guidebooks, there are usually notices about not climbing on wet rock. Perhaps a warning on every guidebook page? I agree it is within the remit of the BMC, but I think if people haven't already got the message then they are unlikely to stumble across it through a few posters at the wall? I would love to be proved wrong though, and it wouldn't be much effort to make happen!

Both UKC and the BMC promote the 'Respect the Rock' campaign, eg https://www.thebmc.co.uk/uk-summer-how-to-go-climbing-in-the-rain  https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/series/respecttherock/chalk_use-...

I'm sure they'd be responsive to anyone offering to write another piece.

I am very aware of these because I am( I think) by nature, inquisitive and generally a nerd, but most of my friends do not.

As I've mentioned, I think it's not about the content per se, but more about how this content is displayed and where. (ie - not a wordy piece in the depths of a climbing organisation website where only nerds and the middle aged and beyond frequent). Either way, I think I will now write to the BMC as a start.

Point taken. I also am middle aged and my most local rock is sandstone.

Equating climbing on wet rock to capital punishment and drink driving is a little OTT don't you think? 

If I have understood you correctly, you think that winter ascents of existing summer rock routes should not be encouraged, because axes and crampons scratch the rock.

I don't want to ascribe to you a view that I'm not sure you hold. However, it is a valid position, although not one I share.

Coming from more of a mountaineering tradition, I think you take the mountain (or the rock) in the state you find it in. So I have no issue with winter ascents of summer rock routed. But I see that there is an alternate view that comes from a naturalist view - 'take nothing but photos, leave nothing but footprints'. That starting point would naturally lead to no winter climbing of summer routes, no climbing on wet grit. But it also leads to no cleaning of the rock, and no chalk. 

I think there is a balance to be struck. I don't use chalk outside ( I find it unsightly), but I have no problems with winter ascents of summer routes. Possibly inconsistent, but there are grey areas. I'm not currently planning a winter ascents of Right Unconquerable, even if there is a sufficient cold snap and blizzard

Steve

No! F*ck your rules. I like my climbing unethical and personally prefer to climb wearing clothes made in a sweat shop, in the pouring rain, on sandstone, using hexes to hammer in single axle cams into deep slots, I occasionally swing on gear and claim an onsight on UKC, I've even considered hiring people from developing countries to carry my rack so I can concentrate on the hard moves. I'm taking my hammer drill to stanage this weekend to put a bolt in Christmas Curry just to ruin Christmas for everyone at Outside. 

If you take your drill to Stanage with the intention of putting a bolt in Christmas Curry you will need a very long reach.

Damn right!

Have you forgotten? 

People in this country are tired of experts. 

Please go back to your books and stop.interfering with our ill informed rants. 

Ok, would 'we used to peg everything' suit you better. 

We still do. A lot of winter climbers still carry pegs, and there are plenty of in-situ pegs across the country.

Steve

But when Instructors take beginners out in conditions which do not "respect the rock", isn't it about time some of these Instructors had their qualifications revoked. These are the same idiots who throw ropes down a cliff without checking, and who set up top ropes all day on popular routes. And what answer do we get when they're questioned - "I'm an Instructor", "I'm qualified and you're not", "I know what I'm doing".

That on its' own wouldn't stop things, but when insurance renewal came up then that's when these plonkers would be removed from heavily damaging the environment in which we climb.

A pair of climbers on a dry day has minimal impact, but a minibus full on a wet day is much more of a problem especially when they have no appreciation of the damage they can cause.

If you mean Christmas Crack, can you put a couple of bolts in there in case it's wet?

We are talking about climbing on rock that is vulnerable to much greater damage in the wet. Why are you defending it.

You might want to tell that to every wall I know that runs their own version of a  "Wall to Rock course" or the BMCs "Ready to Rock" and "Rock Out" both designed to get indoor climbers outdoors.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/ready-to-rock-outdoor-days-2020

Indeed, they have to run special courses.......

I'm trying to understand why it is OK to drive up to Torridon or Coigach in the middle of winter, and climb a classic summer route using axes and crampons, whereas it's not OK to drive to Stanage on a damp day and climb a classic route (on a very similar rock type) when it's wet.

Can you explain?

Steve

Have you some idea of  where or when concerns were first voiced about climbing on millstone grit in the wet? Because, quite honestly, it's all new to me. 

I have been aware of pleas not to climb on soft sandstone crags like Corby's ( at any time, in any condition) for years but most gritstone I've climbed on bears little resemblance.

Is there any real evidence in circulation that gritstone wears quicker than limestone or dolerite or gabbro  in wet conditions? All rock is subject to polish with the passing of feet so a proper study would make interesting reading, if such a thing exists.

EDIT : 8/12/09 on a UKC forum 3 leggeddog writes:

"Oh God! Look what you've started! Soon the ethical puritans will be chastising others for climbing when the rock is not perfectly bone dry"

Offwidth follows up with a slap on the wrist and the ball is rolling.

I was under the impression that Southern Sandstone and well worn 'sandy' boulder problems with marginal holds was what the thread was about. Why mountain routes have been brought into it I have no idea

I was responding to your first post which was seemed to suggest that 'we've done it in the past so it's alright' and the old chestnut of 'it was quarried so has no value anyway' (you may dispute that was what you meant but that's how it reads to me) 

I'm not sure which rock The Corbusian was talking about in his initial post but in his second contribution he was referring to the practice of climbing on grit.

He mentioned 'wet grit and sandstone' but I thought his post was intended as a call for a bit more education, in general, about outdoor ethics which seems not unreasonable.

No it's not unreasonable to expect people to abide by a general code of outdoor ethics. 

Equating climbing on wet grit to practices such as hanging people and driving when pissed, however, is very unreasonable.

I didn't equate them (ie say they were as bad) I gave a couple of examples where people have embraced a change in outlook on the acceptability of practices as opposed to carrying on with something 'we've always done'. (but you know that don't you)

I'm not sure what I know about the point you are making about climbing on wet rock: I had thought you were talking about grit as well as sandstone; if you weren't, then I've made a mistake.