La Demande, what trad grade?

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 Martin Haworth 03 Mar 2020

La Demande (6a)

It is given a grade of 6a, it is bolted but it is not a pure sport route and does require trad gear(unless you have a couple of grades in hand). It is long and physical.

The Rockfax description provocatively talks about HVS 5a, or feeling like E2, 5b for wall bred climbers.

The grade consensus on the voting is 6b (63% 6b, 13% 6a+, 24% 6a).

I have done it a couple of times and it is one of the best and most satisfying routes I have ever done.

So what trad grade does it warrant?

Post edited at 11:34
2
 ChrisBrooke 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Having done it twice, what do you think?

 tmawer 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Felt solid E2 to me, and I'm not a "wall bred climber", but perhaps a bit rusty at trad.

 webbo 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I did it in 1978 although there pegs in it I don’t remember any bolts. The general consensus at that time that it was HVS. I think in the article written about Verdon by Pete Livesey, he gave it 5.9.

1
In reply to ChrisBrooke:

E2,5b, although I could accept E1, 5b. I am confident it is not HVS, and I am not a wall bred climber.

Post edited at 12:26
 Rob Parsons 03 Mar 2020
In reply to webbo:

> I did it in 1978 although there pegs in it I don’t remember any bolts. The general consensus at that time that it was HVS. I think in the article written about Verdon by Pete Livesey, he gave it 5.9.


It was first bolted in the Autumn of either 1988 or 1989 (can't remember exactly which year.)

I think HVS is fair overall; in its original state it felt a little scary though.

 john arran 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

There are two schools of thought about grading multi-pitch routes, particularly long ones where you really need to be climbing the crux pitches comfortably to have a reasonable chance of success overall. So even though there may be no pitch harder than HVS in isolation, such a route may not really be feasible for climbers whose limit is HVS. I'm of the opinion that this should raise the overall grade of the route to E1 or more, but I'm aware that others disagree with that logic.

 tmawer 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Rob Parsons:

I have climbed an awful lot of HVS's over the years, but none for me quite so demanding as La Demande. Perhaps difficult to find comparisons, but if you can I wonder which other HVS's you feel would be comparable?

 markfairbank 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I thought it was solid E2 5b (having done it a few years ago). We were a bit naive thinking it was a 6a sport route with a bit of a trad feel, as opposed to a trad route with some very well spaced bolts. What we thought would be an easy day turned into quite a full on one. Very memorable though.

1
In reply to john arran:

That is a good point, because one of the things about La Demande is that it is 13 pitches and some of them are very physical, and trying to climb a HVS after 6 hours of climbing feels much harder than HVS.

Post edited at 12:35
In reply to Rob Parsons:

I first did it in 1986 and I thought I remembered a bolt at a crucial point, but it could have been a peg.

I don't think HVS is fair overall and I think given the concensus by those that have done it and voted is 6b then most other people don't think HVS either.

Presumably if you were to give it a French grade you would be downgrading it to 5+ .

Post edited at 12:51
 The Grist 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I failed on it twice.....started raining / lightening both times. It felt e2 5b or even 5c to where I got to (which was very high the second time).

I actually felt it was harder than ULA which seemed a path in comparison with much more fixed pro.

 David Rose 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I did it in 1987. There were no bolts anywhere. At the time, it felt to me like E1, 5b, but mostly 4c or 5a. I thought the trad gear was generally good, except in the chimneys near the top, but because I'm a caver, I found them easy.  I would not have been able to swing leads on a 13-pitch French 6b at that time, as my partner Steve Gould and I did on this route, and other routes at that grade in the Verdon I found desperate. The biggest problem for us was dehydration, but this was exacerbated by Steve dropping his water bottle at the top of the first pitch, leaving us only a litre between us for the whole route. 

Post edited at 14:00
 Rob Parsons 03 Mar 2020
In reply to tmawer:

> I have climbed an awful lot of HVS's over the years, but none for me quite so demanding as La Demande. Perhaps difficult to find comparisons, but if you can I wonder which other HVS's you feel would be comparable?


It's a long route, sure - and so requires stamina - but in terms of grade felt HVS to me. In that same trip I remember also climbing Luna Bong which I thought worth E2. So I am really comparing the overall set of climbs I did at the time.

Post edited at 14:07
 Rob Parsons 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> Presumably if you were to give it a French grade you would be downgrading it to 5+ .

It's far too long ago now for me to try to give accurate tech grades. All I'm saying here is that I thought HVS was about right overall.

(Btw I am also aware that anybody who had only ever struggled up single pitch HVSs in the UK would probably find the climb a battle - but that's the issue of stamina.)

Post edited at 14:15
1
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

E2 5b - like The Strand or Grond? I don't really think so,

Chris

Post edited at 14:15
1
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Last time I did it, about 3 years ago I also did Luna Bong on the same trip, I thought Luna Bong was the same grade as La Demande, and in some respects felt an easier overall undertaking.

I think a big part of it is the point that John Arran made, a multi-pitch with several HVS pitches will seem overall harder than HVS!

I thought most pitches were HVS with a couple of the pitches of VS and a couple were worth E1 in their own right, but overall it felt like an E2 undertaking.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

It's a very different route to either of those Chris, I agree in a way, as I don't think any single pitch on La Demande is as hard as the Strand, however I do believe that getting up La Demande is harder than getting up the Strand(I found the Strand soft for E2). 

 Rob Parsons 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> I thought most pitches were HVS with a couple of the pitches of VS and a couple were worth E1 in their own right, but overall it felt like an E2 undertaking.

Not how I found it - but we can agree to differ.

The hardest thing we did that day was actually to abseil into the route, right from the very top. That process took as long as did the subsequent climb, and, of course, the ropes got stuck once, leading to a rather fraught prussik up a single strand to free them. Pro Tip to any future aspirants: make sure you somehow arrange a lift to the bottom of the gorge, as we were sadly unable to ...

In reply to Martin Haworth:

It deserves at least E1 because of the length of the climb and the fact that there is sustained 5a climbing on it if I recall.  It's some years since I did it but I am led to believe that the top chimney now has bolts which could justify lowering the grade. This wasn't technically hard but spectacularly run out when I did it so at that time E2 seemed fair and I went on it anticipating that grade and didn't feel disappointed.

Al

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Yes, definitely not one to ab down. I once got benighted on it 2 pitches from the top(that's another story) and had to ab down in the dark, it took 4 hours to get down.

The walk in to the base is wonderful as the route comes into view.

 CPH 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I thought E2...top end...E for overall effort

and 5b...top end...for a couple of short sections.

I seconded the whole route; Alan Carne led it.

It went smoothly and I went as quickly as I could...took five and a half hours.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

OK. So far by my reckoning we have 3 people saying HVS, 2 people saying E1 and 5 people saying E2.

Anecdotally those people who climbed it a long time ago seem to grade it lower than more recent ascentionists. There could be a number of reasons for this such as: grade creep; its got harder; climbers had more stamina in those days; rose tinted glasses...

 John2 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Make that 3 for E1. There were a few definite 5b moves and it was definitely beneficial to be happy to climb sustained 5a without bothering with too much protection.

Deadeye 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I did it in 1987 with the tunnel approach and no head torch.

There were wooden bonogs and a couple of pegs but no bolts.

I suspect it's much more polished now.  We were also not helped by the gear loops on my old Troll harness ripping and sending just over half our rack to the valley floor, along with my approach shoes and water.

The hardest pitch felt E1 5b to me.  I've only ever managed a few, short, mainly grit E2s.  It's not E2.  (If it was, it'd appear in the "Best E2 in Europe" thread and it hasn't - so QED).  If it's now sparingly bolted, then HVS 5b probably feels fair.  It's not F6b either!

Post edited at 16:23
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

We hitched from the campsite, carrying the ropes, wearing out harnesses and rockshoes, walked to the base (got wet feet in the tunnels), did the route in 3hrds iirc, then hitched back to the campsite. Didn't take a rucksack or water, and there was minimal fixed gear - in my old Livesey guide I gave it HVS. We did ULA a couple of day later - the same sketch - and gave it E2,

Chris

PS Tell 'em that today and they won't believe you

PPS I am sure it is at least E1 nowadays.

In reply to Deadeye:

I nearly put it forward in the "Best E2 thread.." just to be controversial, but I thought it would detract from the main topic of the thread.

I will put you down as an E1 vote... you cant say the hardest pitch was E1 then say the route is only HVS, the polish might offset the bolts you just don't know!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

3 hours is quick going, and walking there in rockshoes would be unheard of today.

 CPH 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Chris Craggs:

3 hrs?

Are you sure you are remembering correctly Chris?

If so...you're my hero!

 David Coley 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Did it in about 1982. No bolts.

It was one of our first HVS routes. We had mainly been climbing VS up until then.

The crux felt UK 5a, on pegs.

The upper chimneys UK 4b near solos.

Possible relevant stuff might be that we had done a lot of long routes and we owned no cams, but one set of rocks, one set of hexes, six draws. This is important as without much gear we were used to being fast and being run out. It felt no harder than HVS in the peak and easier than things like right unconquerable does on hexes in EBs.

I now often find stuff I did when I was young harder, not just because I'm old and weak, but I own and place lots of runners. I often find myself placing 3 good pieces on the crux. In 1980 that would have been a lot of my rack and I would only ever place one piece on the crux, unless I couldn't get a good piece in. I now spend my time pumping out rather than climbing. I think this makes some routes harder, and on a 10+ pitch route much harder.

 Rick Graham 03 Mar 2020
In reply to john arran:

> There are two schools of thought about grading multi-pitch routes, particularly long ones where you really need to be climbing the crux pitches comfortably to have a reasonable chance of success overall. So even though there may be no pitch harder than HVS in isolation, such a route may not really be feasible for climbers whose limit is HVS. I'm of the opinion that this should raise the overall grade of the route to E1 or more, but I'm aware that others disagree with that logic.

On holiday, I like to think in the terms of the local grading system which has hopefully developed to cope with the style of climbing and routes.

Grade comparison charts are just a starter and only applicable as an average sort of indication.

When I did the demande  in 1978, it was probably TD+ with the odd VI- pitch. I expected a lot of hvs pitches, and got them.

Except for the direct off width variation which was nails for a few moves

A lot of individual hvs pitches makes for a TD+ , if you see what I mean , the UK system is not set up for long routes.

Not polished in 78 and felt the easiest route we did that visit between bad weather in Chamonix. It was a breeze and a rest between two trips up the blanc and the american direct

Not strenuous as I recall but I remember thinking it would be a thrutch climbing the back of some chimneys rather than the elegent unprotected bridging option.

In reply to David Coley:

Shall I put you down as a vote for VS then?

In reply to Rick Graham:

> On holiday, I like to think in the terms of the local grading system which has hopefully developed to cope with the style of climbing and routes.

I think the grades in Verdon tend to be harsher than many locations.

> Grade comparison charts are just a starter and only applicable as an average sort of indication.

Very true.

> When I did the demande  in 1978, it was probably TD+ with the odd VI- pitch. I expected a lot of hvs pitches, and got them.

> Except for the direct off width variation which was nails for a few moves

> A lot of individual hvs pitches makes for a TD+ , if you see what I mean , the UK system is not set up for long routes.

I think this is probably a key point, I would agree with TD+

> Not polished in 78 and felt the easiest route we did that visit between bad weather in Chamonix. It was a breeze and a rest between two trips up the blanc and the american direct

> Not strenuous as I recall but I remember thinking it would be a thrutch climbing the back of some chimneys rather than the elegent unprotected bridging option.

Post edited at 17:16
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 03 Mar 2020
In reply to CPH:

> 3 hrs?

> Are you sure you are remembering correctly Chris?

> If so...you're my hero!

I don't have my old books here so I might be wrong but we were pretty efficient/organised back then, Grooved Arete 26 mins (solo), Valencianos on the Penon 1:45 and Half Dome NW Face 10 hrs - not all in the same day btw

Chris

 john arran 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Rick Graham:

> On holiday, I like to think in the terms of the local grading system which has hopefully developed to cope with the style of climbing and routes.

I'm with you there but the title of the thread suggests a different approach is being requested on this occasion

Actually, I think the British grading system can cope well with such routes as long as it's allowed to., i.e. each grade to represent a proportion/likelihood of climbers able to succeed. I don't see any problem with an E2 having crux pitches of only HVS, as long as there are enough of them to sufficiently cut down the number of likely successful ascents.

 Rick Graham 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I can remember you tall,lean and with muscles .

I could imagine the demande being a real struggle starting early , getting blasted in the sun, having to carry extra water and spare clothing / trainers.

Far easier to travel light , start late to climb in the shade. Can be the cause of epics however.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

BOLTS!,... we were lucky if we had a couple of pegs on the route.

Pegs...PEGS... luxury mate, we just had a couple of bits of wood and a clothes line.

Clothes line!!!.. well we got up before dawn, ran t’ crag in our EB’s, finished the route an hour before we started it....

You try telling youngsters nowadays and they don’t believe you...

Post edited at 17:45
In reply to Chris Craggs:

It took me about 4 1/2 hours but I led every pitch. I agree with John Arran you have to build the length of the climb and therefore escape-ability into the grading algorithm.  Each pitch taken individually is probably not much more than VS.  We got caught in a thunderstorm when we reached the chimneys and it felt VERY serious indeed.

Al

 Rick Graham 03 Mar 2020
In reply to webbo:

> I did it in 1978 although there pegs in it I don’t remember any bolts. The general consensus at that time that it was HVS. I think in the article written about Verdon by Pete Livesey, he gave it 5.9.

I can think of a lot of 5.9s that are no way hvs.

 GrahamD 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I don't remember anything harder than solid 5a.  I'd say borderline HVS/E1

 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Rick Graham:

> I can remember you tall,lean and with muscles .

Well I am still tall

Chris

 Philb1950 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Irrespective of height, HVS 5A. A good solo and I even won a couple of abandoned friends. Not an outstanding route by Verdon standards, but maybe it,s cleaned up since 1979

4
Removed User 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I've done it a couple of times; but not for twenty years so I can't factor in polish. I don't remember anything over UK 5a and much below that. A solid HVS leader shouldn't have a hard time. I'd give it HVS (assuming every belay is now set up for abseil, so bailing is easy). 

 overdrawnboy 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Rick Graham:

Except for the direct off width variation which was nails for a few moves

Is this pitch now considered part of the normal route? If so it could be at least E2 for sure. I remember Ron Fawcett nearly came unstuck from this while soloing the route.

 Rick Graham 03 Mar 2020
In reply to overdrawnboy:

I doubt it is the "normal" route, so much harder than all the other pitches.

Guess most folks read the topo. Doh.

 Misha 03 Mar 2020
In reply to john arran:

On a route with multiple HVS pitches, someone whose top grade is HVS would presumably get tired fairly quickly and the climbing will soon start feeling harder for them. They would probably say E1, if they get up it at all! Whereas someone who is solid at say E3 might run up the route and think it’s only HVS but sustained at the grade. I tend to agree that for a sustained route it’s reasonable to add a grade for the overall difficulty but really all you need to know is roughly how many pitches of say HVS there are and then draw your own conclusions based on your ability.

This is where giving an overall grade for a long multipitch route is not that helpful. Better to give individual pitch grades but most guide books don’t do that, at least not for the adjectival grades if it’s a trad route. Not sure whether that’s due to tradition or because it would be more work or a bit or both. To be fair, most will give individual technical grades and you get an idea from that, especially if the rock type is fairly easily and well protectable, eg granite cracks, where sport grades for individual pitches work well.
 

A description along the lines of ‘10 pitches, about half of them HVS and you don’t get much change out of VS on the remaining pitches’, ideally coupled with technical grades for each pitch, would tell me more than an overall grade of HVS or E1.

Not climbed in the Verdon yet so this is just general musing.

In reply to Misha:

I tend to think of it as a rising scale.  1, 2 or even 3 HVS pitches = HVS.  5 or 6 HVS pitches = E1.  Any more = E2.

Al

2
 Rick Graham 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I don't think it works like that in the UK.

On the longer routes like say at  cloggy or dubh loch, the hardest pitch determins  the overall grade.

I just expect to get tired and find pitches harder if doing too many  in the day.

If the UK had more big crags we would probably have an overall grade like in the US.

Post edited at 21:20
In reply to Rick Graham:

Oh I agree this is just my personal thinking.  In any case there aren't that many routes in the UK where it would be relevant.  Well not in England and Wales that is.

Al

In reply to Martin Haworth: The HVS votes are stacking up and probably equal the E2 votes now. We seem to be closing in on a compromise that the route has multiple HVS pitches but overall the route warrants E1.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

It is difficult to think of routes in the UK that are comparable.

I did think about Diedro UBSA as a comparator that many Brits may gave climbed. It is given 5+ and HVS by Rockfax, but in my opinion is significantly easier than La Demande.

 BTphonehome 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

E2 overall for me. Lots of pitches of HVS and some E1 stacked on top of each other. Sustained from the off and even though there has been an increase in bolts / carrying a rack, there are several sections where falling would be a fairly bad idea which I think warrants an Extreme adjectival grade overall.

Polish, heat and water all add in to the mixer when thinking about how it felt.

We made the same mistake of heading up the left hand variant on pitch 8 which was mentioned above and I agree had harder moves than anywhere else on route so this also added to overall impression (and spent more energy!). I later found out that there's actually an arrow scratched into the rock pointing in the right direction for the 6a pitch but we completely missed it. Funny that, as it was my mates lead!

Opinions will always differ on the matter of grade but I'm sure most will agree it is a great day out.

 seankenny 03 Mar 2020
In reply to webbo:

> I think in the article written about Verdon by Pete Livesey, he gave it 5.9.

For those that have done both, how does La Demande compare to NE Buttress of Higher Cathedral?

 BTphonehome 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Can't comment on UBSA but have you done Via Gomez-Cano on the Penon? Had some similarities for me - mix of bolts/gear, similar technical difficulties, length of route but overall not nearly as sustained as La Demande due to two scrappy scrambling pitches mid way. Again felt like an E2 overall route for us.

In reply to BTphonehome:

I haven't done Vía Gómez-Cano (6b), but I note that Rockfax gives it E3.

 SteveSBlake 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I've done it six times, the first in 1976. There were quite a few pegs and I recall a single bolt shonky bolt on the penultimate groove pitch, after which you ran it out to the tree.... Most recently with my son Tim.

I don't think the polish has made it any harder, but it's difficult to be objective as I'm quite familiar with it. That said one very capable partner found it more difficult than Biceps! 

I think the grade range of HVS through to E2 is quite appropriate, if it's hot, you're not used to the style, or length, then an epic is entirely possible, if not on the cards.  The truth will be found in the logbook write ups. (Which are great!)

If you grade it 'E2' there will be someone piping up about it being ridiculously soft.....  

Steve 

 jon_gill1 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Another vote for E2 from me. At the time of climbing it I was going well and had climbed lots of E1s and E2s that year. 

At the time time I remember comparing it to other routes I had done and although it wasn’t the hardest technical route I’d done it was by far the hardest route I’d climbed.

interestingly near the time Chris Crags said it was definitely HVS and he now seems to have changed opinion to E1?

I am contemplating going back to do it again to see if my view point has changed on how hard it was, I clearly remember a rising traverse pitch that I thought solid French 6b and I wander if this is what someone on this thread referred to as a variant as this may change my view on its overall grade but if it would, it would not be less than E1 5b IMO.

i also think that 5+ roughly equates to HVS so how could 6a equate to HVS unless it was HVS 5b, and I would say I’ve done far easier E2’s in the UK than La demand and they are single pitch getting that grade.

more food for thought....

 jon_gill1 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

P.s. Sorry Chris I missed a ‘g’ off your sir name! 

 jon 04 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveSBlake:

1982 for me, Steve. Of course we hadn't embraced French grades then - I don't even recall what French grade it was given - was it some sort of alpine grade, like TD V+? You might remember or have access to old guidebooks? All I have to go on is my diary, which at that time was full of UK grades for French routes. I'm separated from my old diaries at the moment by 1000 km, as you know, but I do remember that I noted HVS for la Demande, as the subject comes up so often on here!

 Martin Bennett 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Led all but the 2nd pitch of it in August 1985 on my 40th birthday. This was before the bolting (Messner's "murder of the impossible" comes to mind). At that time I was confident on E1 and many E2s in Britain. I thought it had much HVS climbing but the length, as well as the runout on the "bomb bay" chimney, foreknowledge of which preyed on one"s mind all day, made it a definite E1.

In reply to jon:

The French Camptocamp website currently grades it TD 6a(6a obl) II P2

 tmawer 04 Mar 2020
In reply to jon_gill1:

I too thought the rising traverse pitch was difficult, but it's not the varient mentioned up thread, which is a direct steep jam crack which I inadvertently struggled up by standing on a peg. 

 jon 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Wouldn't surprise me if it was V or V+. I've got old guidebooks for lots of French crags from the late 70s early 80s. At St Julien at Buis frequently routes that are now 6c ish got V+!

 MischaHY 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

We did it and thought E2 5b. The chimney up to the tree involves slippy bridging 7m over a bolt. If you fell, you'd fall well past the belayer. Zero ego involved as we climbed plenty of stuff on the trip that was rated harder - but the Demande still presented a proper challenge. 

I also ended up abbing back in to rescue a Polish team who we'd overtaken early in the day and who had subsequently got benighted in the little squeeze cave at the base of the tree chimney pitch. I wrote a blog about it which you can find here: 

http://atouchofgnar.blogspot.com/2018/11/a-demandeing-day-out.html

At this point it was fully dark and the full moon was rising above the gorge, putting my little headtorch to shame with a lunar illumination. In retrospect, I think I would have preferred it darker; the moonlight offered just enough visibility to see the cliffs dropping away beneath me, whilst the base remained inky black and impenetrable.

Soon I was dropping down into the chimney of pitch 11 and spotted some headlamps below, glinting back and forth between the flaring walls of La Demande. The two stuck climbers were tucked into a notch at the base where the belay sat, looking a bit glum to say the least. They perked up a bit when I got near them though and it was pretty clear that they’d already accepted that they’d be stuck there for the night.

“Right, so we’ll just jumar back up this rope one at a time and we should be out of here pretty quickly.”

“Jumar?”

“You know. Climb the rope. With this.” I gestured to the ascender on my harness.

“Oh. Ok. We have not done this Jumaring.”

Needless to say, it was a long night! 

 Offwidth 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Bennett:

The range of opinions on this thread sums up why UK grading is so often messed up. The adjectival grade is about leaders of that grade being able to 'onsight' the route (not just the hardest pitch). A big route with many HVS pitches is always going to be at least E1.

1
In reply to Martin Haworth:

HVS, maybe just E1. I only remember two pitches of HVS, one with a move or two of 5b right by a bolt, the other the Fawcett pitch, which as long as you don’t get lost like Ron feels a bit like Wind on the Grochan. It’s not really as long as it sounds; after the Fawcett pitch it’s Severe/VS, depending on what grade you give VD back and footing these days. If you go in for slippery bridging in the chimneys then obviously it’s going to feel harder. 

Maybe the Comici is good comparator, similar length but harder and also similar in the way it eases off. That I would say was E2.

jcm

 BTphonehome 04 Mar 2020
In reply to jon_gill1:

I think the rising traverse you mention is P5 from memory and I thought it was desperate. Polished, in the sun and was fairly pumped just below the chains with some hard moves before a 'thank f***' jug'. Wouldn't have wanted to muff it there either to be honest, would have been a long ride. The variant starts up a very steep off width at P8 with some old tat and a couple of pegs on the right which thins out and contains maybe 20ft or so of sustained hard moves.

Would be great if you do head back to do it and resurrect the topic. Heading out in September but likely to come back from the road trip single if I take Mrs BT up it purely in the interest of seeing if my opinion remains the same!

 BTphonehome 04 Mar 2020
In reply to MischaHY:

It was a good decision for me and Tony to bail that day having seen the way things were panning out Mischa. Could have become very congested and we might well have been jumarring out as well!

Chapeau again for what you did there - top effort after a monster day when all you want when finishing is feet up and cold beer! Nice one. 

 jon_gill1 04 Mar 2020
In reply to BTphonehome:

Yes that all seems familiar! Yes I think taking Mrs BT up it would cause some friction! If you want to watch Big Ron climbing it with his then wife I’m sure it’s in one of the Sid Perou films.... finger tip phenomenon perhaps, where you can also see friction between said couple. Might seal the deal for you. 

Perhaps we should all go out and do a mass ascent of it and have a on site group discussion of the grade! I bet those that say it’s HVS from old memories would have a different opinion in comparison to modern day interpretations of grades though perhaps I change my view too now there’s no mystery!

I know one thing is for sure, and that’s what an incredible route it is and that day will stay lodged in my brain till I die. To this day it remains one of the hardest routes I’ve ever climbed, even though not technically!

 jon 04 Mar 2020
In reply to jon_gill1:

> I bet those that say it’s HVS from old memories would have a different opinion in comparison to modern day interpretations of grades though 

More than likely. I'm not insisting it's HVS, just that that was as I saw it then. And bear in mind, it's a note in a private diary, not something driven by any willy waving competition. 

 wbo2 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:I did it 1990 I think after being rained out of Chamonix.  I was very solid at E2, and had climbed several TD's and +'s, plus a had a go at the American Direct so was climbing that sort of thing well enough.

Remember the wooden wedges very well, some bolts .  I'd say E1 - for many HVS leaders this could be a horror show, especially if it gets hot.  I thought Verdon grading and exposure was pretty ok, but I'd been to Buoux and Cham so was mentally toughened up

Took us three goes thanks to general logistical incompetence

 jon_gill1 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

youtube.com/watch?v=TmBDlzOQp0c&

actually I’ve just checked, it’s Ron soloing it and climbing another route with his wife but I’m sure it’d be a similar result....

 jon_gill1 04 Mar 2020
In reply to jon:

Indeed I’m sure at the time it would have been considered that grade and fair do’s at that. Either way it’s a cracking route!

 jon_gill1 04 Mar 2020
In reply to tmawer:

Yes it was very hot whilst I was climbing that pitch and the polished holds mixed with sweaty hands made for a slightly harrowing lead of pitch 5!

 kevin stephens 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

We didn’t get round to Demande but thought Ula steady at E2 5b. If Demande is easier than E1 would seem appropriate?

2
 MischaHY 04 Mar 2020
In reply to BTphonehome:

Cheers man. Yeah, I reckon you guys made a good call there! We were lucky in that we took it fairly chilled including a long lunch break, and still felt fairly alone on the route due to the spacing of the other parties. 

If Chris really did in 3 hours then I've got a bit of hero worship to do...! 

In reply to kevin stephens:

I've not done ULA. There have been a couple of comments above and in the logbooks that ULA is easier or the same grade as La Demande, but I'm not in a position to comment. ULA has had all its bolts removed except for the belays.

 SteveSBlake 04 Mar 2020
In reply to jon:

I think one significant difference, was that back in the 70s, 80s and 90s, if you tried it, it would be very unusual for you not to have the relevant experience and skills to make it seem straightforward.

It's so accessible now, and there's so much information that peeps get sucked. If you have a weakness in any required area - it will find it!

Mind you the same could be said on any long route in the gorge!

Steve 

 kevin stephens 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I’m happy to believe Demande may be as hard (or harder!) harder than ULA in which case E2. From what I’ve heard the difficulties are often to do with thrutchy off width climbing? Basic skills for a UK grit raised trad climber but not for a wall trained sport climber? Maybe that’s the root of some of the debate?

 MischaHY 04 Mar 2020
In reply to kevin stephens:

Nah it's not offwidth, it's sketchy chimney smearing. I think some of the guys back in the day did it by going deep into the back of the chimney where it narrows and wriggling up caving style, but these days people follow the bolt line (such as it is, there aren't many!) which moves you out to the wide part of the chimney. 

Personally I've no shortage of moderate grit thrutching (most of it soloed) and I still felt the E2 grade was warranted. 

The main thing I would like to do is encourage people to go and do it! It's a brilliant route and such a good day out. 

Post edited at 12:34
 jon_gill1 04 Mar 2020
In reply to kevin stephens:

Not convinced on that line of thought as most people who have said they think it’s undergraded state that they’re competent trad climbers. It really makes me want to reclimb it now to see how it feels 7years on but I suspect it’ll still feel as hard now. It definitely got under my skin at the time and was a real battle. That said I’m not sure I fancy those runout chimneys again! One section high up I seem to remember climbing on a steep slab to the right of chimney where the bolts were. Hugely spaced and gives my the willies thinking of it.

 kevin stephens 04 Mar 2020
In reply to jon_gill1:

All this makes me happy I chose Ula instead of Demande back in 1984. Ula is a brilliant route, and takes Pro too!

 David Coley 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> It is difficult to think of routes in the UK that are comparable.

Wonderland (E1 5c)

This is graded as E1 5c, based on the hardest pitch. I have no idea what grade would be as a whole. E3? But to do it in daylight the team might have to be E5 climbers.

 jon_gill1 04 Mar 2020
In reply to kevin stephens:

Yes a chap I know from the wall says it’s fantastic and steady at the grade, time will tell. I’m very keen on getting back to the gorge after a 4year gap!

In reply to kevin stephens:

I wouldn't agree that the difficulties are to do with the off width climbing, there is plenty of hard climbing in the other pitches, and the hardest pitch isn't off width.

I think its more to do with the route length and sustained nature, plus heat, plus polish, plus runouts. These factors all conspire to make a number of individual pitches that might not get more than HVS individually, add up to what feels like E2 to many ascentionists, particularly climbers  whose lead grade is only HVS or E1.

Anyway, my recommendation to you is to go and climb the route, I'm sure you wont regret it.

In reply to jon_gill1:

Ha, yes its easy to say from the comfort of a wall that its steady for the grade isn't it. Like you I'm keen to get back to the gorge after a 3 year gap. I was thinking of Kalymnos in the autumn but maybe maybe I will change my plans. I mean I'm sure a 6a at Kalymnos is comparable to a 6a at Verdon!

 jon_gill1 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Haha you’ve hit the nail on the head there. Yes I keep thinking of going to places that I’ve not been to before but the Verdon has a grip on me and the feeling as your heading down into the gorge is incredible! Knowing that the grades are to be taken with a pinch of salt! I’m normally able to climb 7a but I would think more than twice to tackle one down there! Would like to climb Ula and need to clean the last pitch of Luna bong, the exposure of that was wild!

 james.slater 04 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Did this route on my second trip to the Verdon in 2018. I would say the 6a sport grade is pretty meaningless! No pitch is harder than about E1. But I dont think that represents the seriousness of some of the chimney pitches, which (if you follow the bolts) are technically easier, but sustained and very bold. E2 5b for me (not a wall rat).

Post edited at 16:02
 Philb1950 04 Mar 2020
In reply to jon_gill1:

Provencale grades are always hard compared to other areas, but as sport climbing was more or less invented there perhaps other areas grades are soft, especially Kalymnos with it,s holiday grades. There,s also great disparity with the type of climbs and rock type. Nowadays most Brits. would find a 7A/7A+ (up to UK 6B/C) slab on granite impossible, whereas 7B cracks seem much easier to lead.

2
 MischaHY 04 Mar 2020
In reply to jon_gill1:

The 7a's I've climbed in Verdon have felt easier than some of the 6a's! 

We did Série Limitée (7a) and thought more 7a for the crux pitch, absolutely brilliant. 

 Julesthe1st 05 Mar 2020

Interested to hear the suggestion that Via Ula isn't much harder (or is in fact easier). Had it on the list for a while but thought it a big jump in difficulty.  

Did La Demand a couple of years back. Struggled a bit with the chimneys and the lower polished sections .  Top route. E1 I guess 

 Robin Mazinke 05 Mar 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Great route, did this last year.  Before we went I'd read the guides, etc and seen the HVS for seasoned crack-climbers/E2 for wall-rats bit and thought 'well won't underestimate it but can probably claim to be a seasoned crack-climber so it shouldn't be too bad'. Notes after said great route and quite tiring.  IIRC there's not actually that much jamming in it, but lots of other crack techniques.  So Fr6a is probably about right - but there's a lot of it - maybe not actually E2 overall, but top end E1 and I think you'd want at least the E2 grade in hand before setting off, so, yes not too bad but certainly not easy.   Must get back and do ULA sometime.


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