Is this Setup Safe?

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 Jafn1997 28 Jan 2023

So I came across an anchor where the person decided to bypass cross loading carabiner by clove hitching to the wide end then looping it round a tree, clove hitching again to the wide end, bypassing the gate with a figure of eight on a bite with some slack then clove hitching into the bottom of the carabiner. I believe it was used for abseiling on a single line.

What are your thoughts?


Is it Safe?

Yes Its Safe
52 votes | 0%
Not Safe
4 votes | 0%
Very Not Safe
2 votes | 0%
Login to vote
9
 gribble 28 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

Is this from marathon man? Are my teeth safe? 

 The Lemming 28 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

Unless I see a picture or diagram, then sorry, I can't work out what you've described.

 Robert Durran 28 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

That sounds so immensely complicated (though I've no idea what's going on), that I'm sure something in the tangle will hold. 

Post edited at 22:20
3
 Wainers44 28 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

Umm, whatever you do,  keep a hold of the rope?

 profitofdoom 28 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

> So I came across an anchor where the person decided to bypass cross loading carabiner by clove hitching to the wide end then looping it round a tree, clove hitching again to the wide end, bypassing the gate with a figure of eight on a bite with some slack then clove hitching into the bottom of the carabiner. I believe it was used for abseiling on a single line.

> What are your thoughts?

It is certainly safe for keeping a lunchbox off the ground, and for a lead for any size of hamster 

2
 JLS 28 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

The only real unknown in you description is the angle at which the two clove hitch stands land on what is presumably a hms crab. I voted safe on the assumption the tree wasn’t a giant redwood and the angle wasn’t big enough to constitute “three way loading” on the hms…

 Holdtickler 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you are asking or what the scenario is. Could you clarify?

 AlanLittle 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

> I believe it was used for abseiling on a single line.

Aha! Finally I get to a part of your description that is comprehensible. Whatever the rest was, it sounds reasonably unlikely to fail under bodyweight no matter how many ways the carabiner is loaded.

 Andy Hemsted 29 Jan 2023
In reply to AlanLittle:

So everyone who thinks that this set-up is safe would be happy abbing off a single clove-hitch anchor?? Wow, braver / more trusting / than me .....

17
 GrahamD 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

"Safe" is such a black and white judgement.  Its abseiling so of course it's not 100% safe.

 Brass Nipples 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

If an oak tree, it’ll be fine 

 Sean Kelly 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

Troll?

1
 Andy Long 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

Since the tree is the only anchor why not just tie the rope round it and do away with the krab. Or have I completely misunderstood?

 Robert Durran 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Andy Hemsted:

> So everyone who thinks that this set-up is safe would be happy abbing off a single clove-hitch anchor?? Wow, braver / more trusting / than me .....

What do you mean? A clove hitch is a knot, not a type of anchor.

 Robert Durran 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Andy Long:

> Since the tree is the only anchor why not just tie the rope round it and do away with the krab. Or have I completely misunderstood?

Tie? Just wrap it round a couple of times. Has the advantage of being releasable under load.

 deepsoup 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> Troll?

Nah.  Genuine new poster with a genuine enquiry about a climbing safety related matter, deffo.  So lets all just try to keep that in mind when Jordanafneil starts a thread about vaccination soon.

2
 CantClimbTom 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

Sure it's safe unless the abseiler was an elephant, is it optimal..? probably not (although a diagram would help). Simpler would be to tie a fig 8 and clip the krab to that, wind the rope round the tree 2 or 3 times (more for narrower tree, less for bigger girth) and clip the live side with the krab. A "tensionless anchor "

  youtube.com/watch?v=mTe1e4cu5Tw&

I've some tree hugging tendancies, so I advise always looking after the tree in some rope protecting manner even if it's just a rubber floormat borrowed from the car, beer/bar mat, or someone else's expensive jacket -  where the rope first touches the tree. (Look after that live bark and cambium)

Post edited at 14:24
 johncook 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

If you have any doubts as to safety find a good source of information on a safe system that is used frequently by others that does not induce worries about safety!

OP Jafn1997 29 Jan 2023

Edit:

So in attempts to make this a little bit more understandable.

(This is all from a picture I took walking past on my phone)

This whole system was connected with the 1 single rated line.

The anchor was a tree tied off with a figure of eight, and a sling around a rock attached to a carabiner both of which were clove hitched to the wide end of a large HMS Carabiner.

(This is where things get difficult to explain)

The same rope was then taken off to the side in some slack and knotted using a figure of eight on a bite (I’m guessing to try safeguard the system somewhat). The rope was then clove hitched to the bottom of the HMS Carabiner (same one mentioned above) so that the system didn’t cross load? That’s my guess anyway. And from there the line was off the edge (remember this is all the same single line).

Personally I have no idea why somebody would create this system. That's why I thought it would be a bit of fun to try and explain/post on here.

OP Jafn1997 29 Jan 2023
In reply to The Lemming:

I'm not a supporter yet so I cant upload a picture, apologies!

Post edited at 17:25
OP Jafn1997 29 Jan 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

Hahah, this made me laugh. I can see how I sound crazy trying to explain this system without a picture! 

 gravy 29 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

So a central point is connected by a sling to a boulder and to a tree by a bit of climbing rope.  A climbing rope is then run to the edge and over and attached to the central point by a clove hitch. The rope to the tree and the rope over the edge happen to be the same bit of rope and there is some slack between the tie in on the anchor and the tie in for the climbing rope.

Sounds fine to me (caveat I can't see the picture)

I might have lassoed one anchor with the rope and created a bight on this to connect the second anchor as an alternative but in circumstances where having too much rope over the edge was a PITA I'd quite happily use a system similar to the once you describe to shorten the rope (basically bundling the spare rope into the slack you see rather than throwing it over the edge). 

Such circumstances might involve adjusting the length of a top rope anchor, making a sensible length for a single pitch abseil, abbing in on a sea cliff or hanging a line for shunting.

As for the clove hitch I'd use that. I might use the remaining slack to back it up with a quick overhand on a bight if circumstances dictated it was sensible but I can think of circumstances where this wouldn't be possible or sensible.

Post edited at 18:03
OP Jafn1997 29 Jan 2023
In reply to gravy:

Thanks for the reply. The explanation you mentioned makes a lot of sense. I'm nowhere near the sea so most of abseiling I've done has ever been problematic with too much rope. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

> Tie? Just wrap it round a couple of times. Has the advantage of being releasable under load.

I wouldn't describe that as an advantage when abseiling myself. More likely to speed the descent somewhat 

 Robert Durran 30 Jan 2023
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

> I wouldn't describe that as an advantage when abseiling myself. More likely to speed the descent somewhat 

It is bombproof (force goes up exponentially with number of wraps). I've used it when a beginner has been abseiling with a safety rope so that the abseil rope can be released if they freeze. 

Also just a fun novelty thing.

Post edited at 08:58
In reply to Robert Durran:

> It is bombproof (force goes up exponentially with number of wraps). I've used it when a beginner has been abseiling with a safety rope so that the abseil rope can be released if they freeze. 

> Also just a fun novelty thing.

I can see that it would work but how do you judge how many wraps is safe?

 Robert Durran 30 Jan 2023
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> I can see that it would work but how do you judge how many wraps is safe?

Until you can't shift it plus a couple for luck?

 jkarran 30 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

> The anchor was a...

Yes a tree-rock pair is generally more than fine as an anchor and the equalisation technique described works. As described the anchors are independent and the connections inextensible. If the loop of spare rope isolated at the main HMS krab was more than a foot or two I'd replace the final clove hitch with a fig8 just in case the hitch slipped. Overall it's a a bit fussy maybe but such is life.

> Personally I have no idea why somebody would create this system. That's why I thought it would be a bit of fun to try and explain/post on here.

People tend to overcomplicate and overthink things rather than simplify them when they're important.

jk

Post edited at 09:58
 ebdon 30 Jan 2023
In reply to Jafn1997:

I dont think its unusual in multi point absail anchors to tie off all the individual parts to a master point, then have a bit of slack then tie the strand you are abbing off to the other end of the screwgate on the master point, which I think is what you are describing. Its actually a pretty convenient way of equalizing all the anchors. Personally I'd use either a massive overhang or fig of 8 rather than clove hitches but whatever. As others have said I think there are simpler set ups for your example!


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