UKH

Found an old thread the other day while browsing for information about Montenejos (apparently it's a massive sandbag) where someone suggested a tough to soft area list across the world. I thought I'd start a list in my opinion from where I've climbed and see what the consensus was.

Italy/Switzerland

La Pedriza

France (old school venues)/Valleys Sandstone

Peak Lime

Yorkshire/Dorset/Costa Blanca

El Chorro

Kalymnos

​​I suspect Chulilla will fit between El Chorro and kalymnos but I've never been so can't say.

Is that old school el chorro or new school

The new stuff

In the Luchon valley, SW France, it varies from crag to crag, and even sometimes from the same equipper who attempts to follow the tradition of previous equippers

Montenejos was a massive sandbag but in the last 10 years or so it's roughly come into line with expectations. The history of the local guidebook is a bit complex...

Assuming you've not been, it is very nice in a very quiet sort of way...

I’m never sure about these lists. I’ve often heard “south east Asia is soft”, but i just got back from Laos and I found it really demanding because *everything* is overhung and powerful and i prefer techy wall climbs. 

Chulilla depends a lot on what sector you are in IMO. The stuff under the castle is not like the stuff at Oasis.

Leonidio is comparable to Kalymnos but then part of what helps is very obvious routes with chalk in helpful places and super friendly bolting - though it also depends what guidebook you’re looking at because they aren’t always grading routes the same!

iceland was a hilarious joke - easily the toughest grading I’ve encountered (good climbs though), all put up by Viking hardmen in the 1980s with fingers made of titanium 

I really rate the sport climbing in Stockholm but it’s a specific style of short but very intense granite climbing - not really my bag so it felt very hard, but if I lived there like my mate does I reckon I’d just think it was normal  

In sum: climbing is stupid, we should all care less (and I am the last person capable of taking this advice.)

But it saves us obsessing over things we cannot change, and things we could change but might generate war to do so

The dislikes must all be from Kalymnos fans

I've only done a small amount in and around Stockholm but don't remember it seeming particularly hard, although it's super similar in style to Finnish sport, which I was my home area at the time. Back climbing around Helsinki this summer it reminded me that the short vertical granite routes feel hard for the grades, 5+ there would get 6a or 6a+ here in the Peak. Then I did an afternoon at a crag in Turku (west Finland) and the slabby 5c I did there felt about Moss Rake 6b! 😆

Beuox (sp) and work down from there.

Maybe true for the easier grades. Less so on the harder routes at Leonidio.

Where are you drawing the line on “easier”? Went to Leonidio last spring and managed a few onsights in the 7a-7a+ range, so I figured it had to be a bit soft, but maybe I was just in form!

Agree.  During my first trip to Chulilla, I feasted.  The routes were possibly soft for the grade in terms of the pure athleticism required, and were definitely easy to on-sight if you had stamina and were good at milking rests (the correct beta was invariably "lunge at the big chalky hold").   A few years later I revisited and because of bad weather had to climb at the more old school sectors and it was so much tougher - I had to reduce my expectations by around three grades - to more Siurana levels.

Imho the grades in Slovenia and Croatia are the toughest of all ....

I think conventional wisdom is that Chulilla 6b+ is "harder" than Chulilla 7a. 

Definitely. Aris' Leonidio book has some laughably soft grades - even more so than current Kalymnos editions - whereas Panjika is more realistic

Based on the Frankenjura as my current local baseline, I'd go something like

• most Austrian / South Tyrol / Bavarian Alps sport climbing areas
• Peak District
• Frankenjura
• Arco
• Leonidio (Panjika book)
• Kalymnos

Yep! I worked on the basis that 6b+ = peak 7a+
Was regularly onsighting 7a/+ when I went and couldn’t even do the moves on some 7a’s.

I went hoping to be in the high sixes and ended up doing fives and a couple of 6a routes. 6a+ shut me down everytime I tried them

Biggest rat I have ever seen was in montenjos but that is another story. 

if you like being sandbagged really badly I can highly recommend Paklenica, and Cliffbase to an extent mainly due to weird rock. Both in Croatia. For super random grading Marjan in Split is exciting. The 6b+ 4c and the 4c 6c being my highlights. The actual climbing in Croatia is great mind.

Yes remember struggling on Montanejos 5's and low 6's! 

We use the expression Slovenian 4c. Which means the need to aid unexpectedly ...

Croatia can be a very mixed bag as developers are rather international and bring their own cultures.

The Swabian Alb makes even the Voralpen look soft, especially Bad Urach. I've tried harder on 7a there than I have on 8a elsewhere. Absolutely brutal. It's great training for alpine routes though.

Strange, isn't it. When I climbed a lot in Buoux in the 80s and 90s, I thought the grading was fine and not at all harsh. Recent visits have suggested otherwise ! Maybe it's a style that requires some/a lot of getting used to ? Maybe the older routes are now all polished ?

But yes, to get back to dino's thread, Montanejos just blows the blanket 'Spanish grades are soft' theory clear out of the water !

I think there seems to be a reluctance to upgrade routes which have become harder through polish. Some whole crags could be sensibly put up a full grade. I'm in the Costa Blanca at the moment - the difference between the older crags and the new ones is night and day.

Based on my one day there I can believe that.

People tend to think the Frankenjura is harshly graded, but I think that's often down to confusing fear due to sparse bolting with physical difficulty. Also not alway onsight friendly: routes can become a lot easier when you know which of the dozens of identical-looking pockets contain hidden jugs.

We have many names for this, my favorite is pocket bingo...

But more often than not, you're handing there and then fiddling through around 30 pockets only to end up taken the first one you tried... then rince and repeat for the next move... and five moves on, you'll be sittin' on the rope due to terminal pump...

Thinking a little more about this. Place(s) where I have flashed 7a and done 7a+ in two or three goes: Telendos

Places where I have multi-year 6c+ projects ongoing: South Tyrol (Latsch), Konstein

The Alpilles massif in SE France is known for its non-flattering grades, but way ahead of the rest is Mouriès  Real old school sandbagging.

We spent 6 weeks last Oct and Nov in Croatia, wondering whether we were deluding ourselves that the grades were all tough...

... We've now been in Spain for 3 weeks and are really enjoying the restoration of our egos 🙂

Can we add Thailand to the list? I'm not sure of the exact order but I'm certain Thailand goes on the bottom.

Aren’t most of the crags in the Avignon/Buis region quite sternly graded?

I've not found Valleys sandstone particularly hard in comparison to El Chorro and Kalymnos.

Yes, you're right, but Mouriès maintains its lead !

Of course a lot of the crags in the area are quite old now and have a certain amount of polish, and as Rob Durran remarked above, there's a general reluctance to upgrade. Maybe the newer crags are harshly graded to keep things level ? In other words, for example, the difficulty of a 6b that should now be 6c, is maintained as a benchmark ?

Another vote for Slovenia as the toughest. I've climbed 7c in the UK and I was getting shut down on 7a regularly in Slovenia. Even some of the 6c routes took a long time to redpoint. The climbing was amazing though so I didn't mind. I went to the Frankenjura straight afterwards and jumped up about 5 grades.

Gran Canaria is the other end of the spectrum - incredibly soft and good for the ego. Never been to Kalymnos so I don't know how it compares.

One of the most desperate leads I've had was on Paklenica 4c. Absolutely horrifying crux, followed by 5m of thrutching to the lower off with no bolts or hope of gear. 

Yeah, but some of the older stuff in say Crni Kal or Vipava are especially tasty.

I thought El Chorro was a mixed bag. Some of the classics were horrendously polished which definitely made them feel quite hard, but on the non-polished stuff I thought it was a little on the soft side - at least compared to the sport on the central belt! We had a class day where we did both Amptrax 6a, and Ebola 6b+ and honestly, I think Ebola was almost easier. It was all graded for one short, 5m section of steep jug/crimp pulling, whilst Amptrax was endless polish.

The general consensus for Chorro amongst people I know is that it's on the softer side of average.

Original Mallorca grades were the most ridiculous I’ve come across. Failed to persuade some locals that French sport grades should be internationally consistent - they graded a hard 7c (Le gorille a une bonne mine) at 7a+.

Had a hard time at Etxauri in the Basque Country last year. Hardest onsight I managed was 6c+ over 3 weeks though had onsighted three 7b’s on a 9 day trip to Chulilla a few months earlier. I gather grades across the whole of the Basque Country are similarly tough.

Jeez, yes, I remember that - everybody agreed ! Do you think it was an effort to keep Brits off the island ?!

Talking to them I’d say they were just being macho. However, I’ve heard undergrading to prevent overcrowding being described as the “French solution” !

Disequipping easy routes is the French solution !