UKH

/ in pinn - taking up 3 people scenario

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NigelHurst - on 20 Jun 2018

I am on Skye for a week in July and plan to do the in pinn with 3 people-1experienced climber (more seconding, has just started leading), 1 limited experience indoor climber and a 16 yr old who climbed for a few months when he was 13. I have a plan for leading them all up, would this work?

I lead with 2 half ropes. I bring indoor climber in middle of first half rope on an alpine butterfly crabbed to harness. Then I make him safe at anchor. Then experienced climber and 16 yr old are on ends of the 2 half ropes and I bring them up in guide mode, with experienced starting 5m below 16 yr old so if he gets the jitters she can advise or assist.

UKC description says 60m but how accurate is that - would 50m ropes be enough to do in 1 pitch or would I have to do 2 pitches?

Thanks

Pay Attention - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to NigelHurst:

it may be easier for your purpose to bring them all up the short side.  That also makes the descent more straightforward to arrange.

i suggest this because many years ago I started climbing when I was hauled up the short side of the Inn Pinn - and then had abseiling "explained" to me when getting off became necessary.

The long side, later, was something to work up to because of length and exposure.

1
lithos on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to NigelHurst:

you need to think this through a bit more.

if  you try in1 50m pitch, your person in the middle will need to start climbing when you are 25m up !

Hardonicus - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to NigelHurst:

Tie the two seconds on the first rope a bit nearer each other, say 3 m apart. This will give you a close to full rope length to lead up with. Put the more experienced person behind and you will also have the advantage of having someone to talk the other through anything as necessary on the way up due to their proximity.

1
NigelHurst - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to lithos:

> you need to think this through a bit more.

> if  you try in1 50m pitch, your person in the middle will need to start climbing when you are 25m up !

ah, of course, doh!, thanks, that's why I'm putting it out there! Looking for the safest way ultimately of course but secondly in conjunction the most efficient (and actually possible!).

Admittedly that might be me leading twice, and if that's the way then that's the way

Post edited at 10:55
SuperLee1985 - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to NigelHurst:

Use a third rope? Have the second trail a single rope behind them as they climb that the 4th can then climb on.

Gordon Stainforth - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to Pay Attention:

> it may be easier for your purpose to bring them all up the short side.  That also makes the descent more straightforward to arrange.

I think the 'inexperienced climber' could have trouble getting up the short side.

 

 

NigelHurst - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to SuperLee1985:

nice idea. hadn't thought of that.

Gordon Stainforth - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to SuperLee1985:

.. Obviously the simplest solution. Since there are four in the party it won't be a big deal carrying up an extra rope.

Dell on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to NigelHurst:

.....but will the fox eat the chicken? 

mike barnard - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to NigelHurst:

I've done this in winter with four of us on a single rope (the other three all 'seconding' a few metres apart). To be fair, one of those three was Mike Lates who fairly 'knows the score' when it comes to Cuillin routes.

So that may be an option. To be honest, with all of them having (a little) climbing experience, doing a Mod shouldn't trouble them too much.

Trangia on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to Pay Attention:

> it may be easier for your purpose to bring them all up the short side.  That also makes the descent more straightforward to arrange.

I agree. Give them a few lessons in abbing and you will make everything much more straightforward. 

The short side is about V Diff/Severe and it will be easy for you to belay them from above. The long side is a lot easier, about Diff, but because of the diagonal length much more difficult to belay people following you if they are inexperienced.

1
gravy - on 20 Jun 2018

I think the belay point is more than 30m, especially with knots eating rope.

Three 40m 1/2 ropes would be perfect.

The belay point 1/2 way is pretty small for 4 people (the top is fine). I'd be tempted to consider extra gear for arranging a staggered belay.

The climb is a 45-60 degree ridge with large fall potential on the right and decking out potential on the left so give some consideration to protecting the 3 seconds (especially on the first pitch and especially if wet) and managing your multiple ropes.

 

Don't under estimate the abseil for the inexperienced (or the environment at the top)- it's straight forward but not where I'd like to take my first lesson! if you have three ropes you can rig a safety line.

 

Offwidth - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to Trangia:

The long side is really easy Mod with good pro so the low angle shouldn't be an issue. Falling off the side would be pretty unlikely for anyone capable of being up there (nearly every munro bagger does this route)   The short side is a dreadful choice for an inexperienced climber...awkward sandbag even at VD. They could climb the route and attach one second to the top belay. Ab off and climb it again with good photos from the top.

Post edited at 18:22
Gordon Stainforth - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

Agreed with all those points. The long side is scarcely Mod, without any technical difficulty – a literal ladder of (polished) jugs.

Trangia on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

Fair enough, we usually climbed the short side in the 1960s when I was relatively inexperienced and I don't recall having any problems with it - but it was a long time ago

We soloed the long side when I did the whole Ridge Traverse a few years ago, and I remember thing yes, very easy, but not a good place to fall off the side!

I was just thinking that the short side was ideal for belaying directly from above, but I accept your's and Gordon's more recent experience

ian caton on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to NigelHurst:

Watched a guide do it with two clients. He tied one on one end and another a few metres on. Flaked the rope into a heap and said "Don't touch that". Soloed the first pitch no gear and had a sling exactly the right length for the belay. Repeat for the second pitch and I am pretty sure he lowered them off together.

TheGeneralist - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

> The long side is really easy Mod with good pro so the low angle shouldn't be an issue. Falling off the side would be pretty unlikely for anyone capable of being up there (nearly every munro bagger does this route)   The short side is a dreadful choice for an inexperienced climber...

 

Hmm. Gotta respectfully disagree with almost all of this. Without doubt the safest way is to top rope them up the short side.

A fall off the long side would be horrible. ( though I do agree with offies assertion that it would be unlikely)

I have shivvers thinking about my missus leading the long side in a very shaky unconvincing manner and not finding it easy or getting any decent runners in. But then that could have been due to the fact that she was 32 weeks pregnant and had to use one hand to stop her harness falling down from her lump.

 

 

Oh happy days

Offwidth - on 21 Jun 2018
In reply to TheGeneralist:

Disagree all you  like. It's by far the most normal way to be 'guided' up as a non climber and by plentiful gear I mean for that necessary to safely protect the seconds. Anyone leading non climbers up there should really be comfortable soloing on such terrain. It's got to be the rock climb with the greatest percentage of ascents from non climbers in the UK.

NigelHurst - on 21 Jun 2018
In reply to gravy:

>Don't under estimate the abseil for the inexperienced (or the environment at the top)- it's straight forward but not where I'd like to take my first lesson! if you have three ropes you can rig a safety line.

Plan was for experienced climber to ab down then I would belay other 2 down, so not underestimating the descent

wercat on 21 Jun 2018
In reply to NigelHurst:

Any reason for not doing it as 2 ropes given you've got 2 climbers? 

The difficulties magnify greatly with wind and rain, minimal on a fine day and up to a moderate breeze but can be an epic when wet and with numb fingers.

Tom Ripley - on 21 Jun 2018
In reply to NigelHurst:

Why not just do two laps?

When working on Skye I’ve managed to avoid doing the In Pinn with more than two, but plenty of friends have done it with 3. Though personally I would rather do two laps than do it with 3 folk on the back of the rope.

If you’re struggling to get your head round it why not employ a guide for a day and make sure everyone gets up and down safely. Skye Guides are very good, though as I work for them I would say that!

 

 

 

Siward on 21 Jun 2018
In reply to wercat:

When I get round to it, which I really will oneday, I want to climb it in thick clag. The last thing I want is lots of sunbathing climbers looking on and offering a helpful critique as I go. No, it's got to be zero visibility for me.

(Being Skye that shouldn't be too difficult to arrange).

wercat on 21 Jun 2018
In reply to Siward:

you could do it on a fine day but just get up very early

More-On - on 21 Jun 2018
In reply to wercat:

Or do it late on...

Climbed it c. 9.30pm a couple of weeks back and had it to ourselves.

To the OP: I'm with those suggesting the long side. Big jugs and enough gear to protect the seconds. With 50m ropes you would need to do it as two pitches which might affect your tactics. 

Dave Hewitt - on 21 Jun 2018
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> The long side is scarcely Mod, without any technical difficulty – a literal ladder of (polished) jugs.

For a timid non-climbing walker (eg me), the crux just below the halfway stance can feel quite awkward. I managed the sections below and above this without any particular difficulty but found the high step up on a polished hold quite tricky and got stuck here for a few minutes, and I know of other walkerish types who have found this too.

In terms of the rope arrangements, there were four of us on one rope: a Skye MRT friend leading, then me next as the most wimpish, then two more competent non-climbing (but good scrambling) friends bringing up the rear. We did it in two pitches and there was room enough on the halfway stance although it got a bit cluttered here as a rather impatient guide arrived as well and started setting up his own slings etc.

Re other people's points about doing it early or late, you can also just get lucky. We arrived at the foot of the Pinn at something like 1.30pm on a sunny August Sunday and there was just one party (also of four) ahead of us. By the time we'd got geared up they were already at halfway, so we just got on with it. We'd arrived half-expecting to queue for an hour or so.

JimSh on 21 Jun 2018
In reply to NigelHurst:

I agree with TRip.

Easiest if you climb it twice. Take one up in two pitches. Leave two sitting chatting/ taking photos at bottom.Better than leaving three people on a wee ledge unsure about how to dismantle belays and avoid rope tangles.

You can suss out the belay for when you take the other two up. Bring up other two, two or three metres apart on rope.

Jimsh

NigelHurst - on 22 Jun 2018
In reply to NigelHurst:

Thanks for replies everyone, some good advice and info, cheers


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