UKH

So, managed to wade through the video replays. That's a lot of telly right there.

Actually really enjoyed the format. Such a big day and a bit tough for for some of the competitors that had been in the boulder final the night before. Skin was a major issue for some. No surprise, given that all those taking part had already gone to the max in all the individual events in the preceding week. The whole idea of having a combined final after all that seems epic and a bit mad.

I'm still not clear how it was calculated who'd be the six in the combined final. I gather there will be a field of around 30 in the Olympic event. How is it planned to get from 30 down to the medalists? Will it be over a few days? Will there be rounds before a six person final like these world champs?

In reply to JLS:

I thought that the format really didn't work with only 6 people in the final, it might be better with 30.l.

The way it turned out, the result was known before the lead section started because only Ondra and Hojer could actually catch Schubert then anyway. Ondra was clearly the best in the lead and only marginally beaten by Schubert in the bouldering, yet he hadn't really got a hope of winning before the lead because he was a second or so slower than Schubert on the speed. The speed section had far too much significance in the final reckoning.

And did you see how slow the real climbers were compared to the speed muscle monsters. It really is like having a series of races over different differences between Mo Farah and Usain Bolt and expecting to get anything meaningful from it.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

100 metres, 1500 metres & backwards pogo stick

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

The only meaningful thing will be the "unofficial" lead and bouldering champions.

Oh, and I suppose somebody, somewhere might care about the unofficial speed champion.

 

In reply to JLS:

I’ve only watched the women’s combined but I doubt i’ll Bother with the men’s. It was too long for me, way too long. I don’t think any one event was too significant but it didn’t really flow overall, no tension built because 75% of the time was spent either waiting or watching people who were out of it.

Also, I like big dyno moves but three out of four problems? Not for me.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Before watching this World Championship combined event, I might have agreed with you.

As it turned out, it looked like the comp got found very worthy champions that had earlier won in Lead and Boulder. Pure speed climbers didn't reach the final.

Dabbling with a bit of speed hasn't done the Bosi boy's climbing any harm.

Having had a wee go myself, it quickly became apparent that doing that many dyno's in a row was seriously impressive and my own climbing would benefit from some of that power. I'd love to be able to train for it, but frankly, I doubt my body could take the punishment.

 

In reply to JLS:

If it is so beneficial, then incorporate lots of varying dynos into one's training schedule then - no need to make it formally competitive. You might just as well make system boarding an Olympic event.

 

In reply to JLS:

At this comp, to qualify for the combined final you first had to enter all three individual events. Then your ranking in each event gets multiplied. The six with the smallest scores make the final. One point to note is that the ranking is only between those who are doing all three disciplines. So for example Janja was ranked 49th in the individual speed comp, but that became 26th once all the people only doing speed, (or speed plus one other thing) got taken out.

See here:

http://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/world-competition#!comp=1564&cat...

For the Olympics it will be the same, except the qualification rounds will be just that, qualification rounds, (with 20 competitors), and not the individual championships.

In reply to JLS:

20 climbers will go to the Olympics. The path to the Olympics was explained to me by Graeme Alderson on the other channel:

"Top 7 from the (Full) Combined Worlds 2019 in Tokyo - it was going to be Top 6 which makes more sense but someone (either IOC or IFSC Plenary Assembly) decided they didn't want the Overall World Cup winner from 2019 which had previously been factored into the equation.

Then there is the Olympic Qualifying event near Toulouse in November 2019, 6 more get selected from this - this event is for those ranked 8-27 in the Overall Ranking from Tokyo.

Then there are the 5 Continental Champions which take place after the OQ event and before the end of April 2020. The ECH will be in Moscow in April 2020.

Then there is a guaranteed spot for a Japanese although everyone expects at least one Japanese to qualify by other means.

Then there is a wild card to be decided by the IOC."

Once at the Olympics, there will be the qualification round of 20 athletes, then a final with just 6, as per Innsbruck (with longer rests apparently).

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=28631.150 

In reply to JLS:

Have we got anyone who has a realistic chance of making it through to the finals.  Looking at this I am not so sure.

Its hard to see as only 6 from mens and womens qualified for the combined finals but where did the GB climbers of mens and womens catagories come if they combined their results.  Are they on the cusp or a million miles away

In reply to Andrew Kin:

The full results list for people who were entered for Combined 'qualifying' (which in this case just means that you entered all three individual events) is available via the results links in the following:

http://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/news/item/1245-innsbruck-2018-day-11...

Will Bosi and Billy Ridal are in there. Obviously some way off on those scores but they are both young and there must be loads of potential for improving outside their normal disciplines. We didn't have any female entries as no-one entered all three events. I'm sure Shauna would be a contender if her injuries recover in time.  I get the impression Molly TS is at the stronger end of the lead climbing group and Hannah S I think does lead as well as bouldering sometimes. So imI sure there is potential.

I really enjoyed watching the comp. I thought the combined format added some extra intrigue and suspense to certain parts of it. I wouldn't want it to replace the usual IFSC events but I thought it complemented them well. It seemed none of the current speed specialists were anywhere near good enough at lead/bouldering to make it through to the combined final - will be interesting to see if any of them can change that in future.

If there is an extra days' rest at the Olympics that will be a good thing.

Edit: might be worth pointing out that the combined champions were indeed the best overall climbers.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Can we pretty please have a thread about the format where you and the grumpy crew don't whine about speed?

I mean jesus christ the olympics has DRESSAGE in it. The olympics literally has horses f****** dancing and you're complaining that speed is a bit derivative? Compared to that speed is awesome.

 

 

In reply to Si dH:

Thanks Si.  Just having a look now.

Its pretty clear where our guys/girls need to be

In reply to MischaHY:

 

Nah, give me the f****** dancing horses over the speed bollocks any day.

 

In reply to Andrew Kin:

Well, Will Bosi would have just qualified for the Olympics, if they'd taken the top 20 in Innsbruck so he's already at the level or there abouts. I think only Jen Wood did all the events as Shauna and Molly are injured/coming back from injury, no idea about Hannah Slanney.

In reply to cameronmurdoch:

Thanks for that. Those ranking number get pretty big pretty quickly as you go down the list!

I don't suppose you know the details of the Olympic qualification rounds? Are we talking just typical World Cup qualifiers without further rounds, only the combined final? How many days are we spreading it over? A rest day before the final?

 

In reply to Andrew Kin:

Shauna should be there or thereabouts if she's fit. She beat Janja in bouldering in 2017 more times than Janja beat her, and made the final of her first world cup lead round.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

They were all equivalently important. Do bad in one discipline an you will struggle to win, no matter how good you are at the other two. 

In reply to JLS:

All of the qualifying events will be in the full Olympic format ie 20 then 6. You will qualify for these events based on your overall ranking in either the World Championships or the relevant continental championships

So an Olympic format event will be held straight after the 2019 World Champs and then the Toulouse event will be sort of a repechage based on the World Champs. Each Continental Championships will be followed by an Olympic format event.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

What I'm still not clear on is the Olympic event's schedule. Can you shed some light?

The World Champ combined event the other day came after what seemed like a particularly punishing prior schedule of events.

For the Olympics I'm imagining something like...

Day 1 - Speed quals. How many runs? Two?

Day 2 - Boulder quals. How many problems? Four?

Day 3 - Lead quals. Two routes?

Day 4 - rest day

Day 5 - Final.

...or is it all packed into two days?

In reply to Si dH:Jen wood entered all three 

 

In reply to JLS: I thought it was a shame that Narasaki false started in the speed. That meant Schubert finished higher than he might have done and affected the overall outcome (not only numerically but also possibly psychologically).

 

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

 

I thought the World Champs were every two years. Is it just a switch to avoid a clash with the Olympics or are they going to be an annual event? 

In reply to AlanLittle:

Sadly I don't agree.  Willing to take a bet now she doesn't make the olympics

In reply to ianstevens:

Which is stupid. Just finished watching the women's  combined. 2/3s of the way through, after speed and bouldering, Sol Sa lead with Janja Garnbret second. Janja was the only one to top out on all 4 boulder problems, the next best was 2 top outs, but Sol lead because she was 2 seconds faster in the speed climbing! If Janja had drawn with Sol in the lead those 2 seconds would trump her 2 top outs in the bouldering due to the ranking. It takes no account of the performance gap between climbers in an event. It should be fairly easy to derive a more complex but meaningful scoring algorithm.

In reply to ianstevens:

Which is stupid. Just finished watching the women's  combined. 2/3s of the way through, after speed and bouldering, Sol Sa lead with Janja Garnbret second. Janja was the only one to top out on all 4 boulder problems, the next best was 2 top outs, but Sol lead because she was 2 seconds faster in the speed climbing! If Janja had drawn with Sol in the lead those 2 seconds would trump her 2 top outs in the bouldering due to the ranking. It takes no account of the performance gap between climbers in an event. It should be fairly easy to derive a more complex but meaningful scoring algorithm.

In reply to becauseitsthere:

As the WCH is part of the qualifying for 2020 the IFSC has had to re-jig the timing of the Worlds. But it is still intended to be every 2 years going forward.

In reply to JLS:

Day 1 Female (or Male) Quals.

Day 2 Visa versa

Day 3 Female (or Male) Finals

Day 4 Visa versa.

I think! But the schedule is already available on the Tokyo 2020 website (or IOC)

In reply to RX-78:

No you are wrong. It is exactly like most sport where it is your ranking that counts not your actual performance - the performance dictates the rankings going forward to the next round but after that it is over. Eg Bolt getting a WR in the semi final has no bearing on the final apart from he gets a centre lane. That is how sport works (most of the time).

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Whilst I don't agree with RX78's complaint, it's not totally unfair to suggest that many, perhaps most "combined" events take into account relative performances on different events, either by points - Hept/Decathlon, Eventing - or as a consequence of the structure of a race - Triathlon, Medleys. 

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Cheers. So, quals, rest day, then final.

https://tokyo2020.org/en/games/sport/olympic/sport-climbing/

 

 

 

 

In reply to Thomasstewart:

Thanks and apologies to Jen - not sure why I missed that.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

From the 2020 website:

"Bouldering
In bouldering, climbers scale as many fixed routes on a 4m-high wall as they can within four minutes."

https://tokyo2020.org/en/games/sport/olympic/sport-climbing/

Pretty sure that isn't correct!

 

In reply to cameronmurdoch:

The combined final is a long day. It would certainly speed things up if Janja could just get her four flashes done in 4 minutes.   

 

In reply to RX-78:

Got any ideas then? It seems a reasonable way of scoring a combined system, not to complicated and makes all elements important. People are just anti-speed, which I actually think is the issue. Yes, its a bit silly - but if you want to do well in the Olympics then you need to get good at it (or just be the least-worst).

In reply to Lemony:

Triathlon is a terrible comparison though - the events don't really have equivalence in the same manner. Taking the winning Men's time in Rio (because its the first I found):

Total: 1:45:01 (100%*)

Swim: 17:24 (16.5%)

Bike: 55:04 (52.4%)

Run: 31:09 (29.7%)

*rounding involved, so may not = 100%.

You (well, Alistair Brownlee) spend most of the time cycling - ergo being a little better (lets say an arbitary +0.5W/kg and assume they're all equally aero) will gain you the most benefit as you spend the longest time doing it. For the olympic climbing format, all events contribute 1/3 to the final tally - IMO the best way to assess a "combined" event, as you see who is actually best at all three, not who is miles better at one event.

 

In reply to ianstevens:

To a degree. I'm anti-speed but resigned to the fact that it's there. So I decided to give it a fair go as a spectator sport by watching the Moscow world cup round and the Innsbruck finals.

And frankly at the moment it's a complete farce both as a spectacle and a fair test of anybody's athletic qualities because of the ludicrous rate of false starts. They absolutely have to get that sorted out.

In reply to JLS:

She probably could too! We shouldn't joke though, as if we're not careful they will add speed bouldering to the next olympics.

 

In reply to AlanLittle:

The new rule about one false start and you're out seems unfair. Jongwon Chon missed out on the Combined final because he was out of the speed immediately with a false start. A new start pad technology was in use too, I was told.

In reply to ianstevens:

Well I am not going to derive a scoring mechanism but one could include some sort of weighted scores. The current method as you say gives equal weight to rank in all 3 disciplines but ranking in speed climbing may be decided by fractions of a second whereas in bouldering difference in ranking can be the difference in topping all 4 versus 2. The equal weighting prob also does not reflect reality in numbers participating in those sports.

In reply to RX-78:

But 4 tops compared to 2 tops doesn't tell the whole story either. The 2 tops may have meant 2 tops and 2 falling off trying to grab the final hold. That is "as close" as a speed differential of fractions of a second.

But you are only competing against the other 19 competitors, of which none will be speed specialists so "global number of participants" is irrelevant.

Speed is included in the Olympic format. Just because you don't like it (I don't either) doesn't mean you have to sway the the scoring to make it have less than equal impact on the outcome.

 

In reply to AlanLittle:

I'm thinking gates like in horse and greyhound racing would do the trick.

 

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Same rule that's used for the 100m and other track events

In reply to RX-78:

So basically, you dislike speed. The number of people who participate is of absolutely no relevance at all IMO. As soon as you start weighting elements you begin to favour specialists. For better or for worse we're stuck with a combined format, and I think in this instance giving each discipline equivalence is essential.

In reply to cameronmurdoch:

The overview is sort of correct "In bouldering, climbers scale a number of fixed routes on a 4m wall in a specified time." but the 'detail' is a bit off the mark!

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

It is not a new rule Nat, it came in last year. And it was agreed by the Athletes Commission along with the fixed start sequence.

 

In reply to ianstevens:

I'm not sure that's the right way of interpreting the data. What's important from each of those events is not so much the absolute time spent doing each event as how much time you can lose and gain doing each. In each event the top 30 or so are within 2-3 minutes of each other. The length of the legs is designed to balance this.

In reply to AlanLittle:

You watched the wrong competitions Alan

In Chongqing there was only 2 FS in the whole competition, same in Arco.

Tai'an had 4, Chamonix 7, Villars 9, Moscow 14 and Innsbruck 26 + some in the Combined.

In reply to ianstevens:

When was the last time a false start determined the bronze in a hundred metres world championship? Or disqualified half the competitors in a decathlon final?

In reply to ianstevens

Maybe but I wasn't anti speed climbing until I was it at this competition.  I think climbing in the Olympics should reflect climbing ability. As I would think for many this may start to become the image of (indoor) climbing. A difference in a few secs in speed climbing, to me, does not reflect the same superiority in climbing as would beating the competition in bouldering by topping out 2 more climbs than the next best. 

In reply to AlanLittle:

2011 in Daegu. Bolt was dq'ed.

In reply to AlanLittle:

That's the point - false starts don't really happen on the track. If you know you're going to get immediately DQ'd, then you practice not false starting.

Edit: Google suggests Linford Christie was DQ'd in 1996, 100m final. Rules changed in 2016 to mean that one false start = DQ.

In reply to ianstevens:

Pedant alert

If you FS you are not disqualified, you are eliminated. A DQ in climbing is the result of a disciplinary action and you are effectively wiped from the whole comp.

So if you FS in a final you come 2nd, if you get a DQ in the final then the 3rd place gets bumped.

I presume that the same aspplies to athletics seeing as how the last time a bronze medal was decided due to a DQ was last week https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/45506527

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Maybe you can tell me why they have an audible countdown beep to the start? Seems to me to be asking for trouble, as climbers inevitably will try to time their start to coincide with the expected beep, rather than (as in athletics) waiting until they'd heard the gun before reacting to it.

In reply to john arran:

Because that is what the athletes asked for!

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Well, as with representational democracy, the idea is for those responsible to do what's best for people (and in this case for the sport) rather than always to do what people say they want!

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

In other events that have beeps to start, I think it's the case that the beeps aren't really critically linked to the timing as such. The time is recorded between when the start beam is broken and the finish beam broken. So reaction time isn't included. I'm thinking about downhill skiing and road cycling time trials. In track cycling the gate won't release the cyclist so going on the B of the bang doesn't gain any advantage. I agree with John, for a 6 second event where we want to include reaction time, a bang without countdown would seem more appropriate.

 

In reply to john arran:

But thats a whole different discussion...........or 10......

In reply to JLS:

Downhill skiing and cycling time trials aren’t head to heads though. You wouldn’t want a situation where a competitor visibly came in second but actually won on time.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Agreed. Hence why the beeps are fine in non-head to head events but not appropriate in first past the post events where there isn't a mechanical start gate.

 

In reply to AlanLittle:

So anyway, I watched the lead part of the combined final on youtube last night. And, having watched real speed climbers in their Moscow & Innsbruck finals, watching other climbers do slow motion speed climbing is quite amusing. Even Jan Hojer.