HVS or Hard VS

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 Suncream 06 Apr 2020

I once went climbing with someone of this parish who's been climbing a lot longer than I have, who made a throwaway remark that "it's Hard VS not HVS" when I mentioned some HVSes. I didn't understand or question it at the time, can anyone shed any light on this?

This has been bothering me a lot now that I have nothing to do or think about (am ill so can't even go for my statutary daily run)

Post edited at 13:57
 Rick51 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

Up to the mid 80's it was Hard VS, not HVS. I've no idea when HVS came in and Hard got dropped as I stopped climbing then. Since I've been back I've heard people saying HVS. What would you call a Hard Severe - an HS? I still use Hard VS and Hard Severe.

2
 john arran 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

When I started it was apparent that London-based climbers said HVS and Northerners said Hard VS.

 Offwidth 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

The irony in all this is many a hard VS is harder than many a HVS.  Those who think The Knight's Move justiffies HVS should try this brute:

Central Climb Direct (VS 5a)

6
 bigbobbyking 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

But he didn't insist on you called VS routes 'very severe'?

 Mick Ward 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> The irony in all this is many a hard VS is harder than many a HVS. 

But a hard VS isn't a HVS, though yes indeed it may be harder (undergrading), whereas, to someone of my generation, a HVS is - and always will be - Hard VS in speech, though never in writing. Just one of those little quirks. I detest hearing HVS (yes, old fogey!)

The first time I heard HVS uttered was 1974. It seemed strange then and it still does, in the same way that hearing HS does.

Mick

P.S. I remember asking an early mentor whether HVS represented a more significant grade than Hard Severe. Either he didn't understand the question or I didn't articulate it properly (probably the latter).  He was an accountant, well used to measurement.

 Bacon Butty 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

It's Hard VS, with emphasis being very heavily on HARD!

Same applies with Hard Severes.

In reply to Mick Ward:

I think the first to use 'HVS' was Ron James, in his Rock Climbing in Wales, in 1970. But he also had HVS+ and HVS- !

 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

Hard VS - always has been, always will be

Chris

 krikoman 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

More to the point, I know someone who calls it Haitch VS rather than Aitch VS, and it should never be Hard VS

Hard Severe but HVS

Post edited at 14:47
8
In reply to Suncream:

Calling it Hard VS or Hard Very Severe suggests that it is a VS that is harder than average VS.  HVS implies it is a separate grade. The former may make it easier to deal with in your head

Al

1
 Pedro50 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Hopefully no one say HVD 

 oldie 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Pretty sure I remember Very Severe (hard) in older guidebooks to indicate top of VS range (and below HVS).

 Michael Hood 06 Apr 2020
In reply to oldie:

I think old Lakes guidebooks used to have "Very Severe (hard)" and then "Extremely Severe" so at that stage (at least there) it wasn't yet HVS.

Someone with access to those older guidebooks will no doubt come along and correct my memory 😁

 PaulJepson 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Yes I always thought Hard VS referred to a top-end VS, whereas a HVS is the next rung up. 

Post edited at 15:03
10
 Myfyr Tomos 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

And since when have courses become "routes"??

2
Removed User 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Easily disambiguated by use of the phrases "Hard VS" for the grade and "Hard for a fcuking VS," usually uttered when crawling over the top or dangling from a rope.

 cragtyke 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

It wasn't at Stanage by any chance was it Jez?

I think that the general rule of thumb for grade pronunciation is that:

H is pronounced hard and very is pronounced V.

S is pronounced severe, unless it is preceded by V , when it's then pronounced as S.

Perfectly straight forward, just like the Peak.

 petemeads 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

Plenty of VS routes harder than HVS - depends on style of climbing, whether it suits you, whether you can handjam etc. Written HVS but always pronounced Hard VS, the main thing is not to say "HaitchVS 5a" when discussing a climb - Hard VS should be sufficient...

In reply to Suncream:

This thread has prompted me to dig out my 1956 Stanage Guide. Some HVS routes like R.Unconquerable get a grade of Exceptionally Severe as does L.Unconquerable.  The "Hard" prefixes, throughout the guide, are shown in brackets e.g. (Hard) Very Difficult.  The first entry for HVS or (Hard) Very Severe is Kelly's Overhang which is post fixed by "(Very exposed).  Other routes are shown like this: Lonely Crag 35 feet Very Difficult (Rubbers).  Which means you have to wear a condom

Al

 Ratfeeder 06 Apr 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> More to the point, I know someone who calls it Haitch VS rather than Aitch VS, and it should never be Hard VS

> Hard Severe but HVS


Totally agree. Aitch VS every time (i.e. HVS), as opposed to Hard VS, which might mean 'hard for a VS'. And it should always be Hard Severe, not HS. It really irritates me when people say 'HS', or worse still 'Haitch S', as if it's a bit like an HVS, or worse still a 'Haitch VS', only without the V. It isn't. It's a Hard Severe, unless it's Bowfell Buttress, in which case it's still a VDiff. And yes, that's VDiff, not VD! 

3
 Michael Gordon 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

I can only assume this thread is a vocal minority since nearly every climber I've ever met says HVS not Hard VS!

11
OP Suncream 06 Apr 2020
In reply to cragtyke:

I didn't want to identify you in case it was an unpopular position.

There seem to be differing opinions, so as a compromise I shall now say:

H Very S

And also

Hard S

Hopefully everyone is happy with this

 Mick Ward 06 Apr 2020
In reply to petemeads:

>  Written HVS but always pronounced Hard VS...

Thank you.

Mick

 Bacon Butty 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Michael Gordon:

I was over the moon when I first on-sighted my first Extremely Severe One

 steveriley 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

Hard V Diff, Hard Severe, Hard VS when spoken please. Haitch S and HVS spoken outloud grate but I try to be tolerant

 WaterMonkey 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Taylor's Landlord:

> I was over the moon when I first on-sighted my first Extremely Severe One

I felt the same when I did my first Very Difficult! Which is a strange name because it wasn’t. It was an easy very difficult.

 Martin Bennett 06 Apr 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> More to the point, I know someone who calls it Haitch VS rather than Aitch VS, and it should never be Hard VS

Oh no! Haitch? Really? That's excruciatingly grating as well as altogether wrong on every count.

 Martin Bennett 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> Calling it Hard VS or Hard Very Severe suggests that it is a VS that is harder than average VS.  HVS implies it is a separate grade. The former may make it easier to deal with in your head

> Al

For once I have to disagree with you Al. A VS that's on the tough side might be described as a hard VS. The separate grade is Hard VS. Might be written but never said as "HVS".

 David55 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Martin Bennett:

You are all wrong. It has always been  

Ard VS 

The H is  silent.

 Andy Hardy 06 Apr 2020
In reply to thread:

Could someone let me know how I should pronounce the grade of 3 pebble slab?

Ta.

 EarlyBird 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

EIEIO

 Rog Wilko 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

Does anybody remember the little F&R Lakes guides which had a plastic cover and a frontispiece showing a reproduction of a Heaton Cooper watercolour? Just so you young uns learn yourselves a bit of history, those were the days when Gimmer Crack was described with 9 pitches (3 pitches now). In those days there were Very Severe routes, and there were Very Severe (Hard) routes . The next grade was an undifferentiated Extremely Severe. All that happened was that the Hard was unparenthesised and shifted to the front, because nobody ever said "That route is Very Severe (Hard)", they said it was Hard VS. I think this at first wasn't recognised as a specific whole grade unto itself, but that came later when, correctly, it was realised that the VS grade was much too wide for comfort. 

As shown above, many of us oldies still say Hard VS

Post edited at 20:27
mick taylor 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

Then there is the other grade: ‘ard VS, most of which I did back in the 80’s are now graded E1 or E2.  Good example is The Bludgeon, which is defo ‘ard VS.  So it goes, in order of difficulty and northern-ness: Haitch VS, Aitch VS, Hard VS then ‘ard VS.

mick taylor 06 Apr 2020
In reply to David55:

Just seen that you beat me to it, but I will still leave my post to better explain the differences.

 Mick Ward 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Rog Wilko:

Yes, I remember those Lakes guides well. I think we viewed Very Severe (Hard) either as a rather charming anachronism or, as my Yorkshire mates would say, a load of bollox. We worked on the basis that Welsh gradings were more or less right. Clearly Yorkshire gradings were totally up the spout, with Wombat, Carnage etc being HVS. We viewed Lakes gradings as being somewhere in between. Even when Gormenghast was given 'hardest HVS in the Lakes' (or hardest Very Severe (Hard)?) we just went along with the pretence. As a wise man once said, "Either you can do 'em or you can't."

But it would be nice to know exactly what you were - or weren't - doing.

Mick

 C Witter 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Nearly every climber you've met must be under 60 according to the straw poll of this thread ;p

 Wiley Coyote2 06 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

It is neither Haitch VS nor Aitch VS  but very definitely 'Ard VS

 cragtyke 07 Apr 2020
In reply to David55:

You are correct and future guides ought to use AD, AVD, AS and AVS where relevant to clear up the confusion in future.

An 'ard VS is a VS that is nearly as 'ard as an 'ardVS.

 veteye 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Could someone let me know how I should pronounce the grade of 3 pebble slab?

Ambiguously Severe?

Post edited at 07:15
In reply to Martin Bennett:

No we are in agreement.  I was referring to the speech but was a little careless in how I presented it. Keeping well I trust?

Al

 Greenbanks 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Rog Wilko:

Interesting stuff. I've got the FRCC Langdale (1967) guide in front of me now (I just love this home-working...). In the back I've copied in a "Classified List of Langdale Climbs, 1966" (no idea where from mind). The hardest route (apparently) in each category are:

E - Astra ; HVS - Rainmaker; VS - Whits End

Of historical interest, and an indication of how times have changed, is that the guide's author, Allan Austin & team, were (apparently) the only climbers doing new stuff in the valley between May 1963 and August 1966...no-one else was involved.

Oh, and I've still got a blade of grass in the guidebook on the page (86) with The Rib Pitch (then VS): this was Johnny's preferred way of marking the climb's place in the guide - avoided creasing the pages...

Cheers.

 Baz P 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Greenbanks:

I’ve got guidebooks with Exceptionally Severe routes but that didn’t last long. Don’t know whether this was a Peak District only grade. Anyone?

 Mick Ward 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Baz P:

I think there may have been two in the Llanberis guide: The Thing and either the Cromlech girdle or Erosion Groove Direct. I guess it was an attempt to mark harder Extremes.

I remember climbing with Roger Everitt in about 1971 and him telling me that the XS grade had as many grades within it as the remaining grades. Back then, your XS might be E1 or E2 - or maybe harder. You took your chance.

Mick

1
 Andy Long 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

HVS is unusual in that it arose out of a colloquialism rather than having been devised and imposed by guidebook committees. For a long time VS was followed directly by XS (ES, "Exceptionally Severe" was invented by Harding but never stuck). HVS meant just that, VSs that didn't quite make the cut. "Easy" and "hard" have always been convenient modifiers for discussion of any grade, without necessarily being recognised as separate grades. HVS stuck. I think it was this increasing concatenation of adjectives ("Hard Extremely Severe" had a thankfully brief existence) that prompted the inspired invention of E-grades.

In reply to Baz P:

The grade Exceptionally Severe was used in Snowdonia in the late 60s, e.g. Llanberis North by Don Roscoe, 1967. E.g. 'The Thing' on the Cromlech. With its classic description: 'Difficulty is sustained, protection poor, retreat beyond the crux uninviting and the ground below nasty to land on.'

 Greenbanks 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I always presumed that 'XS' was reserved by the likes of Mick Fowler and Pat Littlejohn to capture the sketchy, trouser-filling and terminal territory of some of the shale-fests they were inclined to explore back in the day.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Something was bugging me ... I had this feeling that one of the Edwardian pioneers had used 'Exceptionally Severe' years before. So I searched out George Abraham's 'British Mountain Climbs', Second Edition, 1923, and see that he used the grade. Examples, Crib Goch Buttress, Twll Du, Central Gully (Lliwedd), Kern Knotts Crack, Scafell Pinnace Direct from Lord's Rake, Waterpipe Gully (Skye) and Cioch Direct from Coire Lagan. 

 Greenbanks 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Interesting that Abraham had 'B' Route on Gimmer as one of his English Exceptionally Severes...graded S (Mild) in Austin's Langdale guide...But I suppose that takes account of Abraham's classification into Easy/Moderate/Difficult/Exceptionally Difficult...

Not sure either whether XS was mean't to equate to 'Exceptionally' or 'Extremely' Severe either.

In reply to Greenbanks:

I think XS meant Exceptionally Severe (with the added implication that the route was 'Excessively' dangerous, IIRC), because ES meant Extremely Severe, at least as used by Ron James and I think a few others.

1
 Mick Ward 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Greenbanks:

> I always presumed that 'XS' was reserved by the likes of Mick Fowler and Pat Littlejohn to capture the sketchy, trouser-filling and terminal territory of some of the shale-fests they were inclined to explore back in the day.

XS meant Extremely Severe (colloquially, 'Extreme'). By the mid 1970s, it was obvious that it was getting ridiculously overloaded and it was superseded by E grades, initially E1 to E5.

However this left the problem of how you grade for shale-fests and the like. So XS was re-introduced to cover them.

Mick

 Steve Crowe Global Crag Moderator 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

A variant is Scottish VS. Some interesting discussion here:

https://www.scottishclimbs.com/wiki/Scottish_VS_and_other_grades.html

 Rick51 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I always used XS for extreme, as did everyone I knew. All the guides I have show Extremely Severe as XS. I can't find the old Llanberis North so I don't know how they abbreviated the Exceptionally Severes in there but the 3 Cliffs has Erosion Direct and Cromlech Girdle as Hard Extremely Severe (HXS) and the Thing downgraded to XS.

Removed User 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

Back in the day climbing on Laddow we were entertained by some quite loud american soldiers one of whom announced that he had just done a 'severe hard' my friend corrected him saying it was a hard severe and that severe hard was physiologically something quite different. 

 john arran 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Mick Ward:

> XS meant Extremely Severe (colloquially, 'Extreme'). By the mid 1970s, it was obvious that it was getting ridiculously overloaded and it was superseded by E grades, initially E1 to E5.

> However this left the problem of how you grade for shale-fests and the like. So XS was re-introduced to cover them.

Agreed. The more modern XS grades are really something of a cop out. When a route doesn't fall within the usual bounds of solidity and protectability, to the extent to which it's all but impossible to compare it to other routes with more established E grades, it's often simple classed as Hard, i.e. XS.

 Rog Wilko 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Something was bugging me ... I had this feeling that one of the Edwardian pioneers had used 'Exceptionally Severe' years before. So I searched out George Abraham's 'British Mountain Climbs', Second Edition, 1923, and see that he used the grade. Examples, Crib Goch Buttress, Twll Du, Central Gully (Lliwedd), Kern Knotts Crack, Scafell Pinnace Direct from Lord's Rake, Waterpipe Gully (Skye) and Cioch Direct from Coire Lagan. 

Yes, as I understood it, the original grading was easy, moderate, difficult, very difficult, and exceptionally severe, but the exceptionally was soon dropped and then very severe was invented. But I don't know who made these decisions or when. Then there was a period when exceptionally and extremely severe co-existed but it wasn't obvious which was harder.

 Greenbanks 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

And (btw) did you see the Introduction to his 'British Mountain Climbs' that Abraham stated that "A month's holiday in the Alps, including the luxury of climbing several of the big peaks, with the necessary guides, can scarcely be managed at a less cost than £90".

Gentleman climbers eh?

 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

Possibly the folks that say 'Aitch VS' saw it in a guidebook before they heard a climber talking about grades?

Chris

mick taylor 07 Apr 2020
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I reckon people who say ‘Aitch VS’ may be more likely to use a Grigri than a Stitch plate, the favoured device of an ‘Ard VS climber"

 Michael Gordon 08 Apr 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Not many Grigris about on the trad crags I tend to visit...

 Howard J 08 Apr 2020
In reply to Suncream:

In nearly 50 years' climbing I wasn't previously aware there were any firmly-held views on this. In my circles we've always used both interchangeably. I find I tend to say "That route's a Hard VS" but if I'm being specific about the grade it would be ""HVS 5a". Similarly  with Hard Severe/HS. But these aren't rules, just whatever flows most easily in normal speech. .

 althesin 08 Apr 2020
In reply to Chris Craggs:

DVS: a trick move at the crux.

NVS: routes that better climbers climb.

OVS: climb with no route finding issues.

 Baz P 08 Apr 2020
In reply to Greenbanks:

Only gone back to 1957 but it was written as Exceptionally Severe and not abreviated.

Good fun looking at the old grade though, Severe Exposed/Steep, Easy Very Severe, Mild Very Severe, Very Severe & C2, don't remember that one. Then one to cause a rush Unclimbed, you don't see that much nowadays.

Then we come to the peg route grades A1, A2, etc. which I remember well. The classic VS The Mall was A2, who would have thought?

Whilst we are reminiscing, does anyone know when and why Harecliffe Rocher was changed to Agden?

 Slarti B 08 Apr 2020
In reply to althesin:

Haha very good.  Took me a few seconds to get those!

In reply to Howard J:

> In nearly 50 years' climbing I wasn't previously aware there were any firmly-held views on this. In my circles we've always used both interchangeably. I find I tend to say "That route's a Hard VS" but if I'm being specific about the grade it would be ""HVS 5a". Similarly  with Hard Severe/HS. But these aren't rules, just whatever flows most easily in normal speech. .

Actually, now that you say so, that's exactly how I remember it. We used the terms interchangeably for a long time. It didn't matter; they meant the same thing. Very occasionally, we might even have said "Hard Very Severe", done with a bit of a posh accent, as a kind of put-down when someone asked what a particularly nasty route at the grade was like. I don't remember using HS though. Always Hard Severe. (And what a horrible grade that was too. E.g. Halan, at the right-hand end of the Wastad.)

 Mick Ward 08 Apr 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>  Very occasionally, we might even have said "Hard Very Severe", done with a bit of a posh accent, as a kind of put-down when someone asked what a particularly nasty route at the grade was like.

I bet that went down well!  Hearts and minds, eh, Gordon?

In the cafe at Tremadog, before setting off to do Hardd, I asked Tony (Cragrat) Booth what grade it was. "Hard VS," he replied - not with a posh accent but with a decidedly shifty air. I was on my guard. Both seconds took monster lobs into space and couldn't get back on again. I had to ab off in the middle of the wall. Hard VS indeed.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Did I ever tell you John and I were sitting in our mini in the pouring rain in the car park at Tremadoc in the summer of '68, wondering what to do, and Eric Jones (long before he owned the Tremadoc cafe, but was living in a caravan on the same small campsite that we were using in Nant Peris), pulled up alongside and said 'Do you want to do a climb?' and we said where? and he said 'I know just the place!' We followed him at high speed (I remember him as a fast driver) to Carreg Hyll Drem ... Hardd was the route he'd chosen. He teamed up with my brother John, and his climbing partner - forgotten his name - teamed up with me. It was still raining, but the route was dry. Anyhow, he successfully lead John up/across Hardd, but my leader couldn't do the 5c crux so I never did it. I was green with envy, because John was on a complete high when he got back, saying he felt he was climbing about one whole grade harder, thanks to Eric.

Post edited at 23:20
 Mick Ward 09 Apr 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

A very kind man, Eric.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Indeed. When we first met him in that campsite in Nant Peris we didn't realise he was a hard rock climber. We assumed he was some kind of keen hillwalker, he was just so quiet and modest.


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