UKH

How to avoid divorce at the crag

Me and my boyfriend do a lot of climbing together, and at times it can get quite fraught as I’m sure some of you know ! So I thought I would suggest some golden rules to follow for a happy partnership cragside !

Do not put a draw on the highest bolt of the chains so that your partner has to do extra moves to be able to clip it (so they get the same experience as you apparently...). 

Do not give beta when not asked for, especially vague or confusing beta that makes you climb into no mans land and fall off and find that you were going right the first time, before your partner helpfully suggests “you need to go right” by which they mean yeah carry on how you’re going, don’t go left. 

Do not deliberately short rope your partner if you’re mad with them for every single draw of a climb. 

Do not say a climb is crap and ratty when you fall off after your partner (for a change) onsights it, putting the draws in, feeling quite proud to get up something for once! 

If one partner says to the other “please can we do one more route”, and the response isn’t explicitly yes it doesnt really matter what they say, what they mean is “no I want to go home’, and you will probably pay for this later (even if they say yes it could well mean no). 

Saying it will be easier now the draws are in doesn’t always make the other person happy (especially if there is a chance they are still going to find it hard). 

Having a third party/referee/friend/mutual acquaintance may help keep the peace or distill any anger brewing cragside. E.g. our friend ben Ryle used to bring peace tea to the crag, and it was good to sit down and gather around said peace tea. It did the job 

If one person doesn’t want to try a route again for whatever reason, don’t try and pick into the psychological backdrop behind this. It could be your undoing. 

Don’t say to your partner just after they have done their first 8a, “it’s only 7c+ though” even if it is 7c+!!!). 

Try not to take pleasure in seeing your partner fall off a route that you have just done clean. If your partner really struggles on a route, it’s probably not worth telling them that you thought it was proper soft and a right mince. 

This ought to get you on the right track. has anyone else got any suggestions or words of wisdom to avoid world war 3 at the crag?

Thanks for the help there. My wife and me do climb together a lot and don't really have any of these problems. I'd add, "Don't take anything personal when said with good intentions". That covers much of the others points.

I can recommend a good solicitor 

LOL, most of those sound pretty familiar, especially the one about the draw on the top bolt of the chains!

I hope George is paying careful attention to this!

I hope he forgave you.

Only joking Rachel.

I don't know how we do it, but tie me into one end of the rope and Mrs D into the other, and we turn into John & Mary O'Leary from Father Ted.

I just asked Mrs D if she had any tips to avoid divorce at the crag, without skipping a beat her reply was

"Cut the rope"

Once at Dovedale the entire valley could hear not much aside from what sounded like genuinely serious "grounds for divorce" level loud squabbling between a climbing couple (a man somewhat dragging his partner up Easter Island with helpful motivation like "just do the move"). It was awkward, embarrassing and distracting to the point that it spoiled my afternoon. 

Saw them in the car park later and they were all lovey dovey...

I think they were both in the wrong (see: awkward, embarrassing, distracting, spoiling...)

Is this about sex?

Hehe! Shame we haven’t bumped into you guys again, although I’m sure we will at some point ! Heading to Spain next week after being down in Greece.

Dont leave lunch at the foot of a multi-pitch route.

Dont repeat the above on the next multi pitch several days later.

Haha 😂 

In reply to

a good friend once said; 

‘nowhere in the history of calming down has anyone calmed down by being told to calm down’

I can't help but think that the dislikes are from single people who haven't worked out why they are.

Ah yes that’s a good one. We were at cloggy in July, and set off to do a (apparently quick) link up of the routes Llithrig > Pinnacle Arete > The Hand Traverse because my partner wanted to do The Axe and this way was much better and only a bit slower than walking around (I think actually the real aim of this mission wasn’t made fully clear as we started off, at least not in my mind, the classic ‘oh we’re up here now we might as well’. Might as well go get lunch more like).  Heat wave, no food, no water. 3hrs later and I’d not agreed to abseil in but we were on the belay, in the cold and now the wind, with no jacket whilst I had to hold the rope for another hour or so. Best pitch of the year? Not for me...

In reply to ian caton:

Put the draws in, tick it up, brush the holds, extend the clips (maybe the one at the chains?). But unless your partner gets the route, then you could potentially still have a problem...

I found not climbing with my partner was the best option to avoid divorce. 

No worrying about run outs, big falls, or getting the subsequent tight belay because they are worried about you. 

No shouting at the belayer when you fail again, well there is, but the belayer doesn't live with you or take it personally or take it home as a souvenir for another days discussion.

If theres a difference in grade, one of you doesn't have to bimble up easy stuff and lose good fresh arms or time when the conditions are perfect for the project. Whilst the other can belay on routes they genuinely aspire to and stand a real chance of actually getting up the 7a crag warm up.

Spotting when bouldering.... my partnership isn't equal in size....

Carrying kit is more fair with someone who's pack is the same size as your own. 

Climbing is social, it's about friends and experiences with all. Climbing partners aren't exclusive of others

Think that covers it. 

Yup good points.

what’s your stance on the partner who is bigger and stronger carrying slightly more in their rucksack. There is about 20kg between me and my partner and I think it’s fair he should carry slightly more, but he doesn’t always see it that way. Or likes to moan when I sneak in extra stuff into his sack!!

Very funny. Yes, I have seen lots of climbing partners over the years have a 'difficult day' at the crag shall we say, but when it's good, it's probably very good.

I like the fact your post has received numerous dislike.s I'll say this very slowly for the dislikers; "This is satire. Rachel is having a bit of a laugh".

It’s no laughing matter, crag divorce is real you know :P

that's when I use the line (said with excessive politeness):

"Ahem, excuse me. Domestics are for the home environment; this is a place of [climbing]" [or other as appropriate]

A climbing partner, non-relationship type, and I nearly had an acrimonious divorce half way up stove legs on the nose a few years ago. He was accusing me of not hauling efficiently (he was kinda right to be fair). I called him a sanctimonious fuc**ng know it all and he responded with something cuttingly appropriate about my Yorkshire heritage and stubbornness. Of course, we both saw the funny side and got over it. A bit of a fall out (no pun intended) cleared the air and made the rest of the route a lot more fun.

I think half the problem is that sometimes climbing can be a stressful or for some people, mean a lot. I guess it’s easy to take your frustration out on your climbing partner and even easier if it’s someone you know really well as you’re less likely to be polite. I know I’m always on best behaviour when climbing with someone I don’t know so well e.g. “sure I don’t mind being rope gun” , “I’m easy, I’ll do whatever climb your want to do”, or “don’t worry about short roping me on that crux clip”, “yeah go ahead and have a conversation whilst belaying me with whoever’s just turned up” 

I once came very close to throwing an entire rack of cams into the Nevis Gorge just to emphasise how angry I was to be told I shouldn't point out that my partner had back-clipped a runner in a position where, if she had gone for the crux of her E1 warm up, there was a good chance the rope would have jammed and she would have fallen off onto boulders and broken her legs: "How am I meant to get better if you don't let me learn from my mistakes!" FFS........ Anyway, after about half an hour of stony silence, she cooly led her second ever E2 and, later the same day, goaded into it by a comment from a quite a well known climber who had assumed she was going to second it (which I think was in fact her original intention) led her first ever E3. Happy days........ 

50/50. What if you are climbing with someone lighter than you? Do you offer to carry more gear? Do you offer your partner more leads because he is bigger and stronger?

In all of my years of climbing I have never had any of the issues in your first post. With either my wife (who I used to climb a lot with), or friends, or for that matter strangers I have climbed with after putting a note on the board at Camp 4 etc. 

perhaps this thread isn't for you?

This all smacks of a highly competitive relationship - in which you have not assumed a traditional mimsy role  - well done ... but thats the penalty :o  

Otherwise some good tips for keeping climbing partners - of whatever gender - over the long term.

Indeed, also, what do you expect to happen if someone is struggling and you yell “JUST STAND UP” :

a) “Silly me, I forgot that standing up was an option. I will do that forthwith”

b) “ ***?%& I WOULD IF I *&?** COULD”

Placing trad gear at the limit of my reach normally results in swearing from my shorter wife.

Miss reading the guidebook and sending your wife up Hogmanay Hangover Direct (HVS 5b) instead of Hogmanay Hangover (HS 4b) is best avoided.

Surprising my wife by taking a difficult overhanging alternative pitch in the middle of a multi pitch classic also results in swearing, especially on your wedding anniversary.

Oh i did that this summer too on a different route thus turning a vs4c into an e15b. I wasn't thanked for that one.

Rucksack loads/weights should be divided in the same ratio as body weights. This 'handicapping' helps equalise performance, & no big strong man would moan that his weedy girlfriend couldn't carry the same kit as him & keep up the pace (& still expect the love & affection to flow happily his way)

We're taking a van trip to Spain in Jan so if you're still out there maybe we'll run into you then : ) 

And congrats on the 8a (or 7c+... whatever...) 

The trouble is that suggesting this might well result in being accused of having the sexist view that women are weak and can't pull their weight. It's a minefield out there.....

I once heard someone shout across to their partner, who was negotiating their way round the block just before the leftward traverse on second to last pitch of christmas curry, "Don't fall off now or you'll die". I'm surprised he didn't die when she arrived at the belay!

My friend and I were both too busy laughing to have any meaningful input!

Yes. Traverses are the stuff of divorces. Even better if it involves some down-climbing for the second whilst out of sight of their leader (a la 2nd pitch of Valkyrie, Roaches). 

This is nothing.  Try playing mixed doubles tennis with your loved one.  I shudder just typing this!

When the guidebook (and your mate) say take big gear do not leave said big gear in the bag many pitches below...

Have any of these events ever happened to you and your boyfriend?

I’m sure you’ll find a better sequence through that crux roughly translates as the diplomatic way of saying you’re too short to reach the holds or too weak to pull on the holds I used good luck... 

nice video here....

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/ukc/video_its_not_a_jug_when_couples_argu...

Rachel, I haven't even read this yet but - ha ha ha ha ha! Especially as I thought you were asking a question! 

Well you're obviously not married so you can't actually get a divorce.

Dangerous, that... depending on who it is!

Yep we will be in Spain 🇪🇸 until March 

7c+ 😅

Yep we definitely came extremely close to a divorce or worse on samurai groove which involved an overhanging traverse. I have a bit of a thing with ropes running over edges, and I couldn’t do the crux move of this pitch and my only choice was to commit to a swinger on the rope out across an edge and into space. Some awful things were shouted by me ! 

all of them 

One useful way to avoid divorce (in general) is to ensure that yes always means yes, and no always means no. 

Is that too much to ask!? 

Yes. I used to sail a class of dinghy where there were lots of couples. But they sailed in different boats. They were doing something together but without the sometimes tense and shouty part. There was a lot to be said for it.

Hah! Nearly 30 years together and I still misunderstood that one last week i.e. "yes" as in "yes you can do that if you want to be a selfish git".

Similarly with badminton. "Right that's no sex for a week" used to frequently amuse the other people in the hall

You obviously live in a parallel universe or are on some mind altering drug

I'd not get married in the first place . It's a bad idea.

Once people realise their better off alone the happier everyone will be and we can sort out the population crisis too.

It's common sense

;-D

Perhaps, rather than avoiding it, you should embrace divorce? Sometimes it's best for everyone.

Gender needn't be the issue here - it works with mixed children/adults groups, where everyone carries their share of the load.

I was gender specific only in light of the flavour of this thread - I'm happy to bow to the superiority of anyone fitter/faster/stronger/cleverer et cetera ad infinitum ad nauseam.

I'm sure that really helps to calm the situation down...

This is why I boulder

Usually embarrasses them into silence; which is what we want, isn't it? 

But you have to start as you mean to go on - once there is an established dynamic - à la contraire - such a change could be equally disastrous !

Me: might be a good idea to slip your heels out your rock shoes or your toes will hurt later. 

Mrs Swede: ill be fine. 

Me: repeats first statement after each of the next 6 pitches.

Mrs Swede after 8 pitches: my toes hurt. 

Me: well I did tell you...

In hindsight I should have just been sympathetic anyway. 

But the women can carry their weight, just not the higher average caused by having men in the group who have heavier clothes and shoes. True, climbing gear is the same, but if there was a world without men then the ropes, draws and pro would be built lighter because the forces it needed to withstand would be less. So if society overengineers kit for the women due to the presence of men, it seems only fair that the men should share that burden by taking a share of the excess weight.
But I don’t think the relationship is linear - coats and so on will scale by surface area not weight or volume. I advocate bathroom scales at every car park and a calculator so that loads can be allocated proportionally to a pre-agreed formula combining a constant, a linear factor, and square root of the weight. I don’t see how anyone could possibly object to delaying the climbing in favour of a bit of fun group arithmetic.

It sounds like that someone in the partnership has a fragile ego

The equation has to include a handicap factor for the lotions and potions that women seem to require to survive outside. I'm not sure what planet my wife was born on but I'm pretty sure it wasn't this one as she seems to be allergic to the atmosphere.

I think you may be making the mistake of assuming that everyone is going to be rational about things

Time/chess clock or alt days

bouldering

kids

or one or both are envious of the other enjoying themselves too much - but not necessarily at the crag ...  

Would your husband do a similar post to your OP from his point of view. Depending on how brave he's feeling.......

;p;p;p

Careful with the penalty slack.

CB

I think this is the main issue. Climbing can be high tension stuff anyway and when you climb with your other half the filter gets switched off and you come out with stuff you'd bite your tongue at saying otherwise. Like "stop fannying about and get on with it, it's a VS FFS". Similarly, I'm more likely to show my fear and emotion, rather than stoically trying not to cry as I might with a different partner. Me and my partner have had some proper memorable rows whilst climbing thanks to dropped or forgotten gear, short roping/excess slack, gear placed too high for a shortarse second to remove, shit tall person beta, route reading errors etc!

That said, I'm far more likely to push myself with him and I feel much less guilty taking a long time on a pitch if he's holding the rope. In the context of an 11 year relationship, three hours of belaying on the main pitch of your hardest onsight seems reasonable.

Someone I know used to regularly fib to his climbing partner (now wife) about the grade and say it was lower than it actually was - and then get beaten up in the pub in the evening when she got hold of the guidebook

I like the phrase "peace tea". I'm gonna use that.

I wonder if the root cause of couples getting right aggy at each other when climbing is a dumb masculine trait. Has anyone else noticed that when the lady is a better climber than the man that things seem to be a lot more harmonious? 

Is there any other kind of yes?

Don't think they used to get "aggy" at the crag but someone I knew used to get his girlfriend to climb with me because (as the more experienced person of the pair) he used to find it very difficult to not get overprotective if his girlfriend was leading (which of course was a bad thing because she wasn't a newbie).

He knew (from when he had climbed with me) that she'd be okay climbing with me (leading or seconding) and would get the right sort of encouragement and support without the overprotective bit.

I suspect a lot of people in that situation wouldn't even be aware that they were being overprotective (I'm sure I wouldn't).

I'll add some. 

Don't forget the guidebook and lunch before climbing at a new mountain multipitch crag for an easy day, moving quickly, up what 'looks about the right grade' only to then tell your inexperienced partner to follow the 'easiest ground'. Thus my partner led her first HVS pitch as a VDiff leader because she didn't like the windy side of an arete.

Don't upon arrival at the car announce that you have found that emergency soreen loaf in the bottom of your pack.

The words 'good training for the alps' apparently do not make the situation better.

Don't go fast and light in bad weather up an alpine peak only to have to walk off the wrong side of the mountain when you realise reversing the route would be suicide, subjecting the two of you to an additional 13 hrs of walking back to the bivi hut where you left all your stuff.

Don't then decide, when you wake up late the next day that you have the energy to get a quick one in and bag a peak but miss the lift after a dangerous late day glacier crossing. 

Try not to say 'thank god we trained for this on that weekend in the lakes where I forgot the food and messed up the route'

Don't ever do the Giro Di Sorapiss as per the wrongfax guide, or any other dolomites route for that matter. It will end up with you both going the wrong way praying you don't see the other die with a slight slip on horrendous scree. And definitely don't leave the big water bottle behind to 'fill up on the way' and end up with no water for the second day. 

I lie do all of them for a successful climbing relationship... she actually said yes when I proposed. 

Make sure that you can accurately tell her if the blind hold she needs to get; in extremis...

'is it the kind of hold I'd like'?

or your gonna pay!

Is that not the best place for it?

A lot of these resonate! My tips would be —always having snacks helps,a dog is great mediator and doesn’t pick sides and staying on route is generally a good idea!