How might climbing walls re-open.

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 Chris_Mellor 26 Apr 2020

Let’s imagine a socially-distanced lead climbing wall.

The route lines are 3m apart so that climbers on them can be 2m apart. The holds on a route do not overlap at all with holds on the routes either side. The route lines each have their own specific lower-off points there being no shared lower-off points,

There is a bottle of hand sanitiser gel at the base of each route line.

Floor belay points are in marked-off areas with the edges 2m apart from the next one.

Auto-belay lines will be more popular as the floor start/landing points can be kept 2m apart easily. 

Groups of no more than two will be allowed, apart from people living at the same address, such as families. Proof of this will be needed.

Climbers not on a route line will have to be socially-distanced from other people.

There will be no group courses.

In a bouldering wall or bouldering section of a lead climbing wall the same rules will apply but without, obviously, belays and lowering-off points. There will be no group congregating at the base of a line unless it is a family group or people who live in the same property. And they will be in marked-off areas.

Changing rooms will ere-organised to comply with social distancing. Sets of lockers will only be accessible by one person at a time within a set area of floor space and hand sanitisers will be mounted by the lockers.

Cafes will be replaced by food and drink vending machines.

The climbing wall will be bookable by time slots to manage the number of people using it.

Climbers may have to wear face masks. There will be no holding ropes between your teeth.

The walls and holds will be regularly and frequently disinfected.

Will this be financially viable without price rises? I don't think so but it could be a stop gap until full re-opening is possible.

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 Red Rover 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

You forgot one crucial thing, people don't wear climbing shoes in the toilets! Especially true for urinals. 

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 JMarkW 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

They flipping shouldn't anyway. That always used to get my goat.

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 mik82 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

> The climbing wall will be bookable by time slots to manage the number of people using it.

I think this is what'll happen - pay per hour or something similar. Certainly not going to be able to hang out at the bouldering wall for half the day.

Maybe a proliferation of auto-belays also

Post edited at 11:29
 Trangia 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

> You forgot one crucial thing, people don't wear climbing shoes in the toilets! Especially true for urinals. 

And swing doors which can be opened with your shoulder without touching the door handle. Cubical doors to have sanitised wipes provided or opening/closing and locking with a disposal bin provided.

 Phil79 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Prices rises inevitable in any case I would think. I imagine a fair few walls will go out of business as it is, even with current government support.

Personally, if those do turn out to be conditions under which walls reopen, I probably won't bother going, as it sounds like a massive amount of faff.

 Neil Williams 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

> You forgot one crucial thing, people don't wear climbing shoes in the toilets! Especially true for urinals.

That's fairly disgusting, but doesn't really have much to do with COVID, it's just disgusting anyway.

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 Neil Williams 26 Apr 2020
In reply to mik82:

I would agree it will be by advance booking, that way you regulate numbers.  Perhaps remove the holds from every other route or so.  And lots of hand sanitiser.

I think the rest might be overdoing it (or rather we won't reopen walls until they're not needed), and vending machines are worse than selling stuff over the counter because people's grubby mitts are all over them.

Post edited at 12:10
 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

> You forgot one crucial thing, people don't wear climbing shoes in the toilets! Especially true for urinals. 

I gather piss is sterile. A non issue.

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 Red Rover 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

So would you not mind having other peoples' piss on your hands? is it still sterile when it's been mixed with god knows what and left to stew on the floor?

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 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

> So would you not mind having other peoples' piss on your hands? is it still sterile when it's been mixed with god knows what and left to stew on the floor?

I've never really given it a second thought.

....... Ok, I have now. Still not bothered. 

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 Red Rover 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

OK fine. But other people might be bothered so it's best not to wear climbing shoes in urinals to respect others' wishes not to have pissy hands.

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 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

Ok, low levels of bacteria. Still not bothered, considering all the other stuff that must come in from outside on people's shoes and trodden all over a floor that gets an occasional cursory brush for chalk dust.

Post edited at 12:24
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 Red Rover 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

OK fine but again it's about respecting others especially in a future where hygene is more important than usual.

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 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

> OK fine but again it's about respecting others especially in a future where hygene is more important than usual.

I imagine walls will put up signs if they consider it an issue.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Come on. Bacteria grow like crazy on urine. This is why toilets have to be kept scrupulously  clean, although it is true that the UK is exceptional bad at doing this by first world standards. We all know how appallingly bad toilets smell after several days if we inadvertently forget to flush them.

 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2020
In reply to John Stainforth:

Bacteria grow like crazy on sweat. This is why we wash our armpits; have you ever noticed how appalling your armpits smell after a good break from social norms in lockdown. I hope that, when walls reopen, people are going to respect my wish for them not to put their sweaty hands on the holds - this will be especially important in a future where hygiene is more important than normal.

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 Red Rover 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

I use chalk to stop the holds getting sweaty. FFS it's not rocket science, people don't want piss on their hands!

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 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

> I use chalk to stop the holds getting sweaty. 

The chalk absorbs the sweat and then cakes the holds.

 Red Rover 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

Ok whatever. Sweat is unavoidable to some extent. Piss is. People would rather have sweat on their hands than sweat and piss.

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 Misha 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

They will reopen when gyms and leisure centres are allowed to reopen. There may be some limits on numbers and some hand sanitiser may be available but I can’t see any further ‘restrictions’ being practical.

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 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

> Ok whatever. Sweat is unavoidable to some extent. Piss is. People would rather have sweat on their hands than sweat and piss.

Ok whatever. I'm just trying to put in in perspective - it's not like it's dogshit or whatever.

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In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Sadly, I think many will go bust. Some people are still old enough to remember the bombed out city centres from the blitz. Others, younger, saw the old pits and steel mills and shipyards close down.

In 5 years time, people may well be saying, there was a restaurant there, that used to be shops and that was a climbing wall. 

Maybe that's overly pessimistic but people on the Bank of England board are talking of a slump not seen for hundreds of years. 

 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Heartinthe highlands:

> Sadly, I think many will go bust.

Demand for them will be as high as ever, so there ought to be a way for them to survive.

> Some.......... saw the old pits and steel mills and shipyards close down.

But is that a fair comparison? Wasn't that a matter of demand and overseas competition?

 danieleaston 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I was thinking "theres no way I'm climbing with a mask on", but then I've climbed with a buff over my mouth in the mountains so I suppose it could happen

Removed User 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I've never really given it a second thought.

> ....... Ok, I have now. Still not bothered. 

Neither am I.

Having used walls for nearly thirty years I can't say I've ever caught something from climbing in them other than perhaps the sort of things you could pick up anywhere.

I'm careful not to piss the floor myself.

 im off 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

People should stop pissing on the floor too.

I've never considered this pissy hands thing either😂. I'll bear it in mind now. Jesus, life is so complicated.

Climbing holds I suspect will have a whole host of bugs on them.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I hope you are right. The supply problem might be one of 'not being able to supply a safe environment'. Although the OP had some very good ideas. 

 Sl@te Head 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Ok whatever. I'm just trying to put in in perspective - it's not like it's dogshit or whatever.

Or whatever...

https://www.climbing.com/news/study-finds-fecal-veneer-on-gym-holds/

 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Removed User:

> I'm careful not to piss the floor myself.

And I'm careful not to stand in it. 

 brianjcooper 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

> OK fine. But other people might be bothered so it's best not to wear climbing shoes in urinals to respect others' wishes not to have pissy hands.

Jokingly, several months before the Pandemic, I'd suggested to a friend that he should wear 'Marigolds' to protect his fingers when climbing.  Maybe not so daft after all. 

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 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Sl@te Head:

> Or whatever...

That says the most likely source is from outdoors, so presumably dogshit and so on - I don't think anyone shits on the floor in climbing wall toilets. Anyway, I'd have thought the only relevance to the fuss about piss on shoes from around the urinals is that there might be more important (though probably still pretty negligible) things to get worried about.

 Iamgregp 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Considering quite a few walls stayed open when they really should have been closed I’m guessing they’ll be pretty keen to reopen ASAP.

Pre-booked slots to limit numbers and hand sanitiser everywhere sounds likely. Can’t imagine many will go much beyond that.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yeah, the no-climbing-shoes-in-the-bog signs seem like a token gesture when you’ve got the instructors and beginners wearing outdoor shoes on the walls (as seems to be the case at every one I’ve frequented).

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Just use liquid chalk. From a quick google it seems it's typically 70% alcohol, which is what's recommended for sanitizers. Might want to use normal cheapo stuff though. I imagine expensive climbing specific liquid chalks will be more like to try and minimize alcohol percentage to protect skin quality. 

 Sl@te Head 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> That says the most likely source is from outdoors, so presumably dogshit and so on - I don't think anyone shits on the floor in climbing wall toilets. 

Some may not be washing their hands after having a dump though....

 leland stamper 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

I think you need to take this outside. It's so much safer. The lack of sanitizer at most crags may be a minor problem, but then your microbiome will need a boost by the sound of it.

Removed User 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Sl@te Head:

Do you remember that study that was published years ago where they looked at what was contaminating peanuts that were served in little bowls in lounge bars.

They found traces of urine from on average, seven different people IIRC.

I guess the thing to do is to put down disinfectant mats at the bog door so you disinfect your shoes going in and coming out. Mandatory use of hand gel before climbing would prevent transfer of anything from your hands to the holds.

I do wonder if something could added to chalk to destroy viruses or, if you remember MegaGrip, that sort of alcohol based degreaser might just be the job. 

In reply to mik82:

> Maybe a proliferation of auto-belays also

Then everybody touches the same carabiner on the bottom of the tape.

Need to think about hand to object to someone else's hand transmission when people are sweating.

You could mitigate a little by having two hour sessions and in between sessions empty the place and switch on high intensity UV lights to disinfect for 10 minutes.  It would get the mats and the walls but it isn't going to get every surface on the holds.

Unless there is hard data that it's not able to stay active on climbing holds or it's blocked by a layer of chalk on your hands I think indoor climbing is screwed until infection levels are extremely low or there's enough customers who are immune.

Post edited at 15:20
 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Sl@te Head:

> Some may not be washing their hands after having a dump though....

Bog paper is impermeable to shit for a reason, and I'm pretty sure that anyone who pokes a finger through will definitely be washing their hands. Another non issue I reckon.

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 Misha 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Heartinthe highlands:

Fair point but I suspect if the world can’t get on top of this in a year or two with vaccines or drugs, we’ll just have to live with it while carrying on as normal as possible. I doubt that in the long term people would accept significant curbs on what they can do or how they can do it. After all, it’s not just leisure - it impacts everything we do outside the house. It will take society a while to come round to that view but I think eventually most people would. However I’m cautiously optimistic that some kind of medical solution will be possible, simply because so much resource is being thrown at it. 

 Iamgregp 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Removed User:

> Do you remember that study that was published years ago where they looked at what was contaminating peanuts that were served in little bowls in lounge bars.

> They found traces of urine from on average, seven different people IIRC.

No, I don’t. And neither do you. That study is actually an oft repeated urban myth, albeit with varying amount of men’s piss.

 Oceanrower 26 Apr 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> Just use liquid chalk. From a quick google it seems it's typically 70% alcohol, which is what's recommended for sanitizers. Might want to use normal cheapo stuff though. I imagine expensive climbing specific liquid chalks will be more like to try and minimize alcohol percentage to protect skin quality. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Liquid chalk is NOT a solution.

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It's a suspension...

In reply to Misha:

I hope your cautious optimism proves true. But the mumps vaccine—considered the fastest ever approved—took four years to go from collecting viral samples to licensing a drug in 1967.

Here's hoping we can do it quicker with so many companies trying. 

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 Allovesclimbin 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Very interesting thread and one which may be unanswerable until more is known. 
I hope we will have access and it will likely be in a socially isolated way as will be the norm for the other aspects of life , shopping, walking etc 

Faecal material has been found on climbing holds and viral RNA and infectious viral loads are have been found in faeces  , and of course other bodily secretions and waste products  . I don’t see why that should stop climbing if hand gels are used AND people don’t touch their faces or any mucous membrane surfaces! This underpins a lot of PPE usage in hospitals . 
 I guess clothing and chalk bags would be washed after each trip ( yes , even for smelly climbers like myself) and boots rubbed down with soap , water and gel . 
 Face masks are tricky  . The basic version may protect people from you , but unless your trained to remove them properly in the correct sequence, they pose a greater risk from other people to you . 
Anyway , here’s hoping . 
Keep safe and strong for the return of the crags ! 
 

Al

 Luke90 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Heartinthe highlands:

> I hope your cautious optimism proves true. But the mumps vaccine—considered the fastest ever approved—took four years to go from collecting viral samples to licensing a drug in 1967.

> Here's hoping we can do it quicker with so many companies trying. 

And with our tools and knowledge having moved on somewhat since the 1960s.

 charliesdad 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

That all sounds very complex, costly and almost impossible to enforce. It could all be a lot simpler;

1 Once the Government relaxes the lockdown, a few Wall operators will open, with some basic precautions in place, (sanitiser, maybe limits on numbers).

2 A few climbers will go, accepting that social distancing can reduce, but not remove the risk of infection.

3 Assuming there isn’t a spike in infection, more Walls will open, and more climbers will gradually drift back to indoor climbing.

4 The more risk-averse people will hold out til there is a vaccine, sometime in 2021.

 earlsdonwhu 26 Apr 2020

I think I will be more prepared to get back in a swimming pool before getting back on the wall. I miss the wall and meeting friends but still.....

 Si dH 26 Apr 2020
In reply to charliesdad:

> That all sounds very complex, costly and almost impossible to enforce. It could all be a lot simpler;

> 1 Once the Government relaxes the lockdown, a few Wall operators will open, with some basic precautions in place, (sanitiser, maybe limits on numbers).

> 2 A few climbers will go, accepting that social distancing can reduce, but not remove the risk of infection.

> 3 Assuming there isn’t a spike in infection, more Walls will open, and more climbers will gradually drift back to indoor climbing.

> 4 The more risk-averse people will hold out til there is a vaccine, sometime in 2021.

Some variation on that might well happen but I think you are under estimating the culture change that will have occurred after covid. I don't think anything will need to be enforced particularly. I think changes will be driven by the fact that climbers will mostly expect better hygiene and more distancing than they have in the past, especially in the period before any vaccine or drugs are developed. Most big cities have multiple walls and quite a few people have built home training equipment of various standards, so the walls are going to have to meet people's expectations if they are to get their customers back.

I'm encouraged that I know groups of walls are already working together to see what they can change for the better. Some combination of a few of the OPs suggestions might be helpful.

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In reply to Si dH:

I know walls and some organisations are working together. 

I have posted a similar OP in the walls and training section. 


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