Help for a chronic toe dragger

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 egg 13 Mar 2023
 montyjohn 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

no advice, but eager to hear responses as I definitely toe drag. I tried researching if any shoes have extra toe material so they last longer but couldn't find anything.

 JLS 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

I have the same problem. My solution is to buy a new pair of shoes every three or four months.

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 JLS 13 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

>"I tried researching if any shoes have extra toe material so they last longer but couldn't find anything."

It's almost as if the manufacturers where building in obsolescence on purpose.

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 montyjohn 13 Mar 2023
In reply to JLS:

> It's almost as if the manufacturers where building in obsolescence on purpose.

There must be a YouTuber who's willing to cut open a bunch of shoes to compare them. If nothing else it would make manufacturers know we're paying attention to this.

 Kemics 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

Do you have poor hip flexibility? 

I've noticed this is often the culprit for me when I toe drag. If i've neglected my stretching, I tend to make a high step with one leg and because having both feet engaged pushes my arse miles away from the wall, putting more stress on the fingers and causing me to sag off. Instead I lamely leg drag so I can keep my hips close to the wall

 Steve Claw 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

Improve your core strength, it did wonders for me.

I also only use old shoes with toe holes indoors. This not only saves your good shoes, but also teaches you to use you feet better.

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 JLS 13 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

Shoes used to have 6mm thick soles. Under the guise of "improved performance" 4mm is the norm these days.  La Sportiva did bring out an Ondra version of the Muria a few years back which possibly had chunkier rubber but I guess it didn't sell well or didn't fit the business model. Either way it was quickly discontinued.

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 gribble 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

I found that for me, it is a mindset thing.  I try to climb in 'silent feet' mode which means being conscious of your feet at all times. Not only has that reduced holes in my shoes, it has massively improved my footwork!  I also teach this to all novices I get to play with.

 JLS 13 Mar 2023
In reply to gribble:

>"I found that for me, it is a mindset thing."

The dragged toe maintains a third point of contact, often stopping a barn door opening while making a move. I reckon it is an efficient movement technique, just horrendously hard on footwear.

Someone up thread mentioned hip flexibility. I suspect if the toe drag could be turned into an inside edge drag then there may be a rubber saving benefit...

 CameronDuff14 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

someone else mentioned it, but it could be worth doing the old silent feet drill a bit! Choose a climb a good few grades below your max and try and climb it without your feet making any noise at all - if you hear them you have to restart (good fun with a mate so you can call each other out for every slight noise!) and then just work up the grades!

Makes a fun addition to the warm-up routine and should generally help accuracy with footwork in general!

 NobleStone 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

I'm certainly as guilty of this as the next person, so fully a hypocrite for not taking the following advice but...

I guess it comes down to maintaining technique at your limit, which comes down to a) being stronger and b) practicing lots. 

If you've not got lots of time to spare it's tempting to spend all your time trying hard stuff but I've heard (and it seems reasonable) that doing lots of easy mileage is good for technique. 

You'll notice that most climbers (including me) will toe drag and otherwise look like they're struggling when they're at their limit. Really good climbers tend to look like they're cruising right up to the moment they pop off.

 midgen 13 Mar 2023
In reply to Kemics:

I would guess hip flexibility? If I'm on a high step, my trailing foot will be turned inside or out and flagging, rather than dragging straight up the wall. 

Only time I drag my toe up the wall is on hands-off slab moves, and then only in particular situations.

 mutt 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

It's possible that you are foot dragging to maintain your stability whilst moving. Do you feel that you will spin off when you lift the raising foot? If so then the solution is to shift your weight onto the other foot by rotation of your hips and possibly also sink down onto the stationary foot a little. You can also palm off. 

This might be tricky to fix on routes but can be addressed at ground level. If you have access to a a system board experiment with moves to identify when you feel like foot dragging, and then try and reposition yourself to achieve the move without dragging. 

 LucaC 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

It sounds like you've identified the position where the toe dragging occurs. My best advice would be to drill this movement without dragging in an easily controlled environment (probably the boulder wall) many times.

It's certainly possible to do a high rockover without dragging a toe. Stat with large holds and focus on the movement not the difficulty of the move. Be mindful of your feet, where they are and what they are doing until the drill becomes second nature

 Robert Durran 13 Mar 2023
In reply to Steve Claw:

> I also only use old shoes with toe holes indoors. This not only saves your good shoes, but also teaches you to use you feet better.

On the contrary, I think it probably instills poor habits in not trusting your feet and overgripping. I think I remember Dave Macleod making this point.

 AlanLittle 13 Mar 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

>  I think I remember Dave Macleod making this point.

Quite possibly you do, but he wasn't the first by a long way either. Big Ron said something similar in Fawcett on Rock

 petegunn 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

Dont climb at indoor walls with friction paint 😋

 HeMa 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

Do quite feet excersice (place the feet carefully, no noise and don’t move ’em once placed).

the other that might help, is the TAP-TAP-TAP where you incrementally hop the foot up is small purposful jump or ”taps”. When done properly, you’ll hear a quite TAP-TAP sound.

practice on easier problems first and then proceed to use that learned pattern on harder stuff.

or accepts that you’ll go through multiple pairs (so instead of spendy highend shoes… get something cheap, 2nd hand, or bargain Bin shoes for your indoor climbing).

lastly change your locale for one that has less textured walls and holds…

 steveriley 13 Mar 2023
In reply to LucaC:

> It's certainly possible to do a high rockover without dragging a toe. 

...and sometimes that drag is what keeps you on. Part of what makes climbing a strange and wonderful business. A tiny beta change can make all the difference sometimes

 HeMa 13 Mar 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> On the contrary, I think it probably instills poor habits in not trusting your feet and overgripping. I think I remember Dave Macleod making this point.

Might have been Dave Mac, but this was also a Note on Greshamns Master Class series…

not that I completely agree with him. After all, majority of us operate at a level where the shoe doesn’t really matter (I’d say about 7C/7c onwards… but naturally Depending on the route). What you need is well fitting shoe. And to an extent, training might be better If you overgrip… but you need to have good trust in your ”send-shoes”, so do wear them as well (to get the feel and trust… but not enough to wear ’em down). Naturally experience in climbing helps, If you have already good technique then having less performing shoes is not a problem… How ever the more technique flaws you have, the less good idea it becomes. So Neils article is certainly valid… but again it might be more for those new into our sport…alas, that disclaimer was missing from those articles.

like everything you read online or even from guidebooks… should be taken with a Healthy dose of skeptimism. After all, Twight suggest that climbing without a rope is safer… only True in a specific scenario and with enough skills.

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 LucaC 13 Mar 2023
In reply to steveriley:

Absolutely. I've often thought this is because it lets you maintain some extra core tension by having something to pull against. 

 Nick1812P 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

It can be a number of things depending on the exact move, to gain useful feedback get footage of you climbing moves where you drag your toes and people will be able to offer advice.

 JLS 13 Mar 2023
In reply to LucaC:

>"I've often thought this is because it lets you maintain some extra core tension by having something to pull against."

I think this is what all the "silence feet" people above are missing.  Doing without the toe drag point of contact just makes controlling the move with the remaining two points of contact that little bit harder. Ultimately you may not have a margin for "a little bit hard" if you are to get up the climb.

Post edited at 17:03
 Mark Haward 13 Mar 2023
In reply to egg:

It is hard to give some definitive answers without seeing you climbing. Some suggestions could include:

- It is possible you are focussing your planning and looking on the next handhold rather than the next foothold. On easy routes to begin with plan where you are going to put your foot then, having transferred as much weight to your other foot as possible, watch the foot you are moving all the way from the previous hold ( or position ) to where you are going to accurately and silently place it - do not look away until that foot is on the new hold or position. Sometimes the 'nose over toes' principle to fully weight the pushing foot / leg helps.

- Consider bouldering or traversing using as small foot holds as possible and develop more trust in your feet. Aim to relax your hand grip and weight your feet as much as possible. It is possible that you may need to use the inside or outside edges of your feet more rather than climbing face on, experiment with this. Also, try to place your feet really accurately first time.

- On easy slabby ground try climbing one handed or, better, no hands. This really helps focus on footwork.

- Perhaps start your wall session,  as a part of your warm up, by focussing on easy routes or even rainbows  where your focus is on developing your footwork that you are then going to try to apply to the harder routes you move onto.

- If you have found yourself foot dragging you could lower back to the start of that move and try to work out a different way of doing it that avoids the foot dragging if possible.

Hope something here helps...

 Robert Durran 13 Mar 2023
In reply to JLS:

> >"I've often thought this is because it lets you maintain some extra core tension by having something to pull against."

> I think this is what all the "silence feet" people above are missing.  Doing without the toe drag point of contact just makes controlling the move with the remaining two points of contact that little bit harder. Ultimately you may not have a margin for "a little bit hard" if you are to get up the climb.

I watched the Ben and Jerry video with Ondra flashing The Ace today. I think this is the point Moffat was making - he thought he was going to fall off because he had not moved his flagging foot up to be in contact with the rock. Obviously Ondra had a big enough margin though!

In reply to egg:

I don't drag the lower foot, I tap it up the wall. This means no friction but I get the benefits of the smear/flag. 

OP egg 13 Mar 2023
In reply to Nick1812P:

I'll record myself tomorrow on the dihedral 6C autobelay. I'll try it twice... once trying to climb as I usually would with the foot dragging and then again trying to avoid foot dragging.


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