UKH

Recently I noticed that belay loop on my harness is damaged. One stitch on end of the outer layer is broken but on the inside the stitching that probably holds the whole thing together is ok. Should I discard this harness? What do you think?

Personally, I wouldn't be using that belay loop (*), but that doesn't stop you tying ropes into the harness.

(*) - might be ok for belay device for belaying your second (much lower forces) but not for belaying leader.

However, you then have the "pressure" of remembering to not use the belay loop etc, so might just be easier to get new harness.

If (and only if) the rest of the harness passes inspection, maybe you could cut off the belay loop off and replace with https://m.petzl.com/GB/en/Professional/Harnesses/RING-OPEN  (about £15 - £20)

Or they could just cut it off.

Cut off and replace with this:

https://m.petzl.com/GB/en/Professional/Connectors/DEMI-ROND

Petzl say it's for harnesses.

I wouldn't worry too much, none of the bar tacks have any damage to them and they are the strong bit. It looks like the outer is just sewn on the edges, probably to give the loop a bit more lifespan by protecting the bar tacks.

Use your own judgement though.

That loop will likely have plenty of strength in it, but the amount of monitoring it will need would annoy me so I would just get a new harness.

As a temporary measure I'd be tempted to tie some 7mm cord with a double fishermans just a tad bigger than the loop and clip into both for some peace of mind.

The bar tacks look good, assuming they are upon close inspection I'd stitch the corner back down and call it good but that's me, you need to exercise your own judgement.

Jk

I'd happily trust my life to that loop, I suppose the question is would your climbing partners? If it makes them uncomfortable then it's worth changing.

Hmm, maybe you're right, in which case ok for belaying leader as well.

Having said that, I often used to clip my belay device's krab into one or both rope loops as well as the belay loop - no doubt someone will now tell me why that's a disastrous thing to do.

I'd be fine with that. The bar tacks are structural, the broken stitch is just keeping it neat

This is a nice solution. Thank you for the suggestion.

Initially I was thinking that for belaying I could put another HMS crab through the rope loops and clip belay device into the belay loop as well as the crab, but it would be a lot of hassle to take it out after every belay and then put it back.

However the rope solution seems pretty good and fairly effortless. I will get a new harness but will probably keep this one as a spare.

Does anybody see any issue with putting a loop tied with double fishermans into the rope loops of the harness and clipping the belay device into it as well as the belay loop? So far I can't think of any problem this could generate.

You could do, but I'd say the harness is either ok to use or it isn't. A few of the suggestions above are a bit far from the norm and would you really want to use a harness that's been botched back together?

Again, there isn't any damage to the bar tacks, I'd keep an eye on the loose bit but leave it as is.

Totally agree. Just buy a new one. But I'm the sort who finds living with things that don't work properly or are compromised in some way rather annoying/unsatisfying. 

price of a new harness  v's injury or your partner not wanting to climb with you?

Yeah.  YMMV, but philosophically I think that's a really smelly solution that violates the KISS principle.  You either trust it or you don't, and if you don't then adding a bodged backup that you also don't fully trust on its own is a poor solution that adds bulk, complexity and the potential for confusion and mis-clipping.

Edit to add:
Personally, I would probably look very carefully at the bar tacks, and assuming they're ok I'd repair the dodgy stitching by hand.  But that's just me, not a recommendation.

I don't see why this is any different to how you would set up an anchor.

If you don't fully trust your gear placements, you add another.

The obvious difference would be that you add further sub-optimal pieces of gear to a sketchy belay to make yourself feel better about accepting it when a bomber piece is not available.  You don't set out already planning for every anchor to be that way all day, let alone every day.

But as I say, this is only my opinion and YMMV: this isn't one of those times when we disagree because I'm right and you're just plain wrong.

I think Todd Skinner’s advice would be: bin it

Whatever answers you get you still have the same decision to make.  What is the worst that could go wrong? The sad reference to Todd Skinner makes that point clear. If you don't trust the loop don't use it. If you did trust it, would you have posted?

There's a lot of redundancy built into a belay loop.  If the bar tacks are ok, then the loop is going to be strong enough, especially if you clip your belay device to the rope loop(s), in which case the "belay" loop is really just for body weight rappelling. Stitching the loose corner back down won't make the belay loop any stronger but will keep that corner from hanging up on something and possibly ripping further. 

I think the real danger is in heading down a path that gradually accepts more and more wear as still ok; presumably this is what killed Todd Skinner.

All that said, I believe in replacing my harness within a five year period regardless of visible wear, and if it looked like yours I'd be buying a new one.

It's fine. The single line of stiches you are looking at doesn't really do anything structural. I'd be perfectly happy to keep using it.

If you don’t know, why presume?

How about buying a new harness and sending your current one to HowNot2 for him to break it for a video. Then if if fails way below the spec you can feel vindicated. If it fails way above the mbs you will have a new harness and also will have contributed to an informative yootoober.

I'd bin it, the harness looks a bit worn anyway.

Less so for me, but because if someone else is putting their life in my hands, then skimping on the equipment I use to keep them safe doesn't feel like the right thing to do.

When buying a new harness double check the manufacture date on the label.  Try and get one straight from the factory (about 6 months old), as climbing walls have started checking the age of harnesses and 10 years is too old, even with little apparent wear.  Sale harnesses might be in the sale for this reason.

I don't think this harness can in any way be compared to Todd Skinner's, The report after his death mentions that the belay loop was "extremely worn and frayed" and that the wear was localised due to positioning of a girth hitch sling that had been there a long time. etc etc.

The belay loop on the harness in question by the OP looks fine in my opinion and I'm fairly sure I'd be happy to use it.

When I retired a very old (~17 years I think) Petzl corax harness because the leg loops were very worn where the webbing passed through the buckles I decided to cut the belay loop and other parts so that there was no way it could be picked up and reused. After hacking away at the belay loop with a good sharp kitchen knife I had to resort to an axe to cut it.

After all the effort it took to chop the harness up I was wondering why I'd retired it as it was obviously still tough as old boots.

Which wall have you been to that have checked harness age?

Plymouth life centre. Not complaining about it though.

In this case, it's a combination what I would have thought to be unavoidable elementary logic---he kept climbing again and again on a harness that was almost unimaginably deteriorated---and multiple accounts of people who knew him, some of whom I also know and so heard from them firsthand.  If you want, I'll rephrase: "This is what killed Todd Skinner."

My concern was and is that climbing with deteriorated gear that seems to be functioning properly can be a slippery slope which might lead one to accept more and more deterioration because what's happened so far hasn't mattered.

The key learning from Skinner's death was that abrasion uniformly across the width of the fibres disproportionately weakens the loop because the same fibres go the length of the piece that is rolled up.

That's completely different damage to what's seen here.  Here the loop and tacking both appear in good shape.

Tell you what.  If the OP sends their harness off for destructive testing and it's significantly (say >25%) de-rated then I'll buy him a new one.  If it fails at >75% of the rated strength, you buy him a new one.

I just threw my old tatty harness in the bin. It hadn't even occurred to me that someone might pick it up and use it.

Point worth noting.

It was something I noted after the incident where someone had pulled a load of retired centre harnesses out of a skip and sewn them back together before flogging them on E-bay in a really dodgy state.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/dangerous-harnesses-seized-by-authorities

I've done a lot of pull testing and drop testing and I'd be completely confident that you can't break that belay loop under any normal usage.

If I had enough money I would replace it though and if I didn't I'd add a few stitches to prevent it getting any worse.

Thank you to everybody who chimed in. I bought a new harness because I was kinda wanted to try lighter more minimalistic harness anyway.

However after all the feedback I'll probably put a few stitches into the belay loop of the old one and just keep it as a spare. Since the main stitching is intact I think the harness is fine.

Also I don't think it's that worn out, I've been using it for only 3 years now.

Once again thank you to everybody for advice and opinions.

Really? I haven't seen this at my local walls and, if true, that's me and the family screwed!

I used to work in a gear shop and I never had a single customer check the DOM of ANY climbing gear. I don't recall any procedure for checking the age of harnesses in stock, either, but may have changed, as it was a long time ago.

Unbelieveable! I've messaged/reported a couple of people on Facebook/eBay to say they shouldn't be selling items due to age - one was a nearly 30yo Petzl "Jump" harness being sold as "new old stock", or something!