UKH

gyms reopen from 25th July does that mean climbing walls as well ?

Fantastic news, they'll get my support, what ever we have to do to stay safe, they will need our support more than ever..

Just had a look at the Gov. guidance. “If equipment cannot be cleaned after use it should not be used” may scupper opening of walls?

The actual guidance:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/prov...

Be interesting to see what wall managers/owners make of this and of the other rules around Social Distancing, etc.

In which part(s) of the UK?

Depot Nottingham have announced opening on Facebook. Climbing unit Derby have expressed desire to open soon when safe. 

Not Scotland although 31st was mentioned for consideration of gyms opening, subject to various conditions. 
Edit: wording seems to be not before 31st. https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/nicola-sturgeon-phase-t... .

Well, if that is adhered too, it is more or less impossible to see how they can open. 

They've announced that they can open and that they're doing their best to implement measures to ensure that they can.
Doesn't mean that they will though, as they might in reality not be able to achieve what was announced in today's guidelines.

I too cannot see how Climbing Walls opening can be compatible with those guidelines - unless it's restricted to ridiculously few people, but even then it might not be feasible to be able to do any necessary anti-viral cleaning.

This bad summer weather is right p**sing me off. Can't go for a climb/boulder in the evening so go for a climbing wall session instead. Nope can't do that either.

It sounds like they'd need the climber to use antiseptic wipes or spray to clean the holds as they're lowered off every time they climb. Not sure how a bouldering wall could do this. Maybe an alcohol based spray on the end of a stick?

I see a niche market - anti-viral chalk...

Yes

I know some walls will have a booking system where the climber books a 2 hour slot in advance. 

Presumably you could get a section of wall (2-3 panels wide, 4-6 routes with a belay zone at the bottom). You and your bubble climb on it as many times as you want. When you’re ready to move to another section someone from your group lowers off the top and gives everything a wipe. Then you move to a free section, or if it’s busy, the staff manage the rotation. It’s not perfect but it ticks the boxes.

I made some a couple of months ago. It was a piss take, aimed squarely at those exercising confirmation bias in their risk assessments. It works surprisingly well, just mix powdered chalk with hand sanitiser gel. 

Mmmmm perhaps an alcohol based liquid product mixed with chalk. It might catch on.

I have a suspicion that chalk, being strongly alkaline and a distinctly inhospitable environment, would itself be enough to prevent contamination by touching. Unfortunately I've never heard of any study that's actually looked into this possibility so it remains simply a hunch.

If so, it is such an obvious answer to the issue that I'd be amazed if someone hasn't looked into it.

It looks unlikely John. 

2 days in stool, 4 days in diarrhea (higher pH). 

https://www.who.int/csr/sars/survival_2003_05_04/en/

Caveat the report is for sars, no pH values or survivability window given. 

I'm guessing that a lot of wall managers/owners are looking at the regulations this evening and trying to work out a workable plan that allows them to open and still be financially viable.
From a UKC users point of view, we're lucky to have the climbing wall guru that is Graeme Alderson in our midst and despite appearances, he is actually quite intelligent and astute... 🙄. 
Will be interesting to see what he makes of it all considering his vast experience from both the regulatory side and the commercial one.
Whatever happens, lets hope that walls survive this crisis and if they decide not opening for a few more months is the best option to achieve that, then so be it.
 

I heard some manufacturer of liquid chalk has upped the alcohol content so it is anti viral, usually it is only about 50%.

Not many walls will last a few more months. Especially with furlough ending.

Tend to agree with you.
Unfortunately, they have to find a way to comply fully to the regulations and the very nature of climbing walls might make that extremely difficult.
Let's hope there's a solution.

The one that I have bought is 80%!

Liquid chalk is, unfortunately, not a solution.

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It's a suspension.

(I'll get my coat...)

If your wall is waiting till today to look at what to do don't go back, they are unprepared. Any business that actually values your safety has been looking at this since day 1 and changed that plan 50 times every time new legislation has come out. Most have been putting pressure on for a re-opening because they are as ready as they can be. 

If walls introduce mandatory liquid chalk then walls are in a good position because there won't be a single other business where people religiously sanitise there hands every 5 minutes, you don't catch a virus through your hands, you catch it through touching your face/eyes etc with your hands. But they'll be sanitised at an extremely regular basis with high alcohol liquid chalk.

I think a lot of walls have been doing that and posting updates on their websites and social media pages, the depot, and awesome walls certainly appear to have been keeping customers updated and informed in terms of developments and procedures to allow opening again. Interestingly the climbing works have not posted a covid update on their website since 19th march when it closed.

Or just be trusted to not touch your face and eyes while climbing? Having chalk on your hands pre-covid was already enough to stop most people doing this surely? Now with everyone very much aware of the risks I don't see this happening much. I don't like rules and regulations that assume people are basically morons that then overly limit and negatively impact business' ability to function.

I think we all realise that cleaning holds after every single contact is ridiculous. We don't mandate this for door handles in every other business do we? If we do I assure you it isn't followed on the whole.

I hope Nottingham have installed some ventilation since lockdown. They didn't have any before.

The legal stages of a “guideline” here is unclear. As is the extent to which anything can or will be enforced. The pubs in London last weekend had very variable interpretations on the “guidelines” they were supposed to be following, and of course nothing happened to those whose interpretations were especially loose. 

What happens with climbing walls will be a mix of the judgement of individual wall managers and the risk appetite of individual climbers. I expect advance booking slots to limit numbers then token hand sanitising requests, and then the risk is just accepted. And I’m fine with that. 

I'm sure most have been looking at how supermarkets, etc. operate and have had ideas on how they can incorporate that into their own environments.
However, up until yesterday, the specific guidelines for indoor sport facilities wasn't known and they would be second guessing on what exactly is now required.
The main stumbling block for walls is the very strong suggestion that holds will need to be cleaned/sanitised after each use and I can't really see a practical way of doing that if that is indeed what is required.
I assume that there is going to be a lot of discussion between wall operators and Environmental Health in the next few weeks...

I think it is possible, just time consuming.  The climber will have to do it, in the same way that a gym user will have to wipe down a machine after use. Give them a pack of antiseptic wipes or small bottle of hard surface sanitiser to take up with them.

So you manage to just get up a boulder problem that's right at your limit. It's overhanging and is the easiest problem on that bit of wall (because like me you're a bit of a punter 😁). You drop off from the top. How exactly are you meant to get back up and sanitise the holds.

Might be ok for lead walls for people to sanitise on descent, but can't see it working for bouldering.

If the alcohol content is high enough to make this an effective anti-viral, then this surely is the way to go. Walls can insist that you use it - might increase the cost of a session but that's maybe the price we have to pay if we want walls to survive and open before this goes away (if ever).

While physically possible, I just can't imagine people taking the time to do this. A more workable alternative would be you sanitize your hands immediately before and after each climb. I think this achieves almost the same result? The only transmission route then would be if someone touches their face mid-climb.

edit: and as has been pointed out, might not even be physically possible especially on bouldering walls.

I think it's pointless speculating and we will have to wait and see what happens.
Might even come down to individual Environmental Health Officers having different interpretations of the guidelines and therefore some walls could have different systems to others. 

Yerp the ventilation in lots of climbing walls is dire but Nottingham Climbing Centre is a particularly bad example.  They've got two massive vents which they don't use because the fans are like jet engines. For the sake of a simple motor controller they'd go from zero to something really effective.  Of course they know this already...

Nobody is going to do that.  After the first time, any attempt at such cleaning will be perfunctory and laughable.

Agreed - it's all down to interpretation.  The rules have obviously been written with gyms in mind, there's no specific legislation for climbing walls so we'll just have to see what steps they take.

Not convinced the legal status of the guidance matters - it'll be what their insurers say, which i imagine will be 'we will not pay out on any liability if you don't follow the government guidance'.

The guidance is probably the end of the lot of gyms. Most would probably struggle to meet the 9m2 of floor space per user and be financially viable, let alone the cleaning requirements. I see a lot of gyms have announced they're opening, but i've not seen any say how they are meeting the guidance.

The end of climbing gyms?  

Taking a snippet from the guidance:

"2. Frequent cleaning of work areas and equipment including stationary gym equipment between use, using your usual cleaning products.

3. Frequent cleaning of objects and surfaces that are touched regularly, including stationary gym equipment, free weights, mats, balls, etc."

So both points state "frequent" which allows a lot of leeway and interpretation. Only stationary gym equipment has been prompted for 'between use' cleaning. Personally I'd say climbing holds are 'objects and surfaces' NOT equipment.

Also says to clean "using your usual cleaning products". Well if you don't usually use cleaning products on holds, then your usual cleaning products are no cleaning products at all (more cheeky this one I know).

"If equipment cannot be cleaned after each use, it should not be used."

Again, up until now no-one would likely classify a climbing hold as equipment. Climbing walls being a bit out of the ordinary in terms of gyms may be a saving grace as they are unlikely to be considered or scrutinized as much as regular gyms.

Agreed, spot on.

Of course they're equipment, 'stuff' used to carry out your chosen activity.
 

Think you'd love this route in Pembroke: Wishful Thinking (E1 5b)  🙄

Really? I thought everyone would have classified it as that!

The key word is "guidance". It is not law.

We have put a couple of updates on Facebook as I can do that. I am fairly incompetent at updating our website and Dan, our General Manager and IT geek is furloughed so can't update the website.

I was making the assumption that the liability insurance would effectively make it compulsory to follow. Is that not likely to be the case (assume you have more of a clue than I as a punter do!)

The ABC is in the process of updating it's Guidelines and Procedures, a new draft is doing the rounds. The aim is to publish today so walls can make tweaks to their plans in time for opening on or after the 25th July.

I expect that the ABC will have been consulting with the main insurance brokers such as the Activities Industry Mutual.

Fingers crossed they can find a workable solution.

Great news. That might save a few jobs in the nick of time, I know a couple of wall on the brink of going bust

Unlikely. 

1) nobody is going to sue their climbing gym for giving them Covid (how could you prove where you got it) so insurers don’t need to worry about this, or they just say “insurance doesn’t cover Covid claims”

2) insurers needed income too, so they are incentivised to still provide insurance to walls, just not for Covid related claims. 

If one good thing comes out of this thread it should be that people stop calling climbing walls gyms - a clear example of where the distinction is highly relevant.

On the contrary, I call it a climbing gym, best description, especially for non-climbers. None of the structures for climbing on there are walls. The walls of the establishment aren't suitable, they're corrugated steel.

I've always thought 'climbing wall' sounds childish.

"Climbing centre" works.

"Climbing gym" is sort of accurate but a bit of an Americanism, and I like us having our own quirks, it'd be a bit like having a "shopping mall", whereas what we have in the UK is a "shopping centre" or if you want to be really quirky and old English about it "shopping precinct"

(At Manchester Uni there used to be the quirkily named "Precinct Centre" - nothing like hedging your bets )

See, I'm not bothered about that, but each to their own.

I just find 'gym' works better in conversation with non-climbing colleagues and friends. It gets across that I'll be tired after exercise without prompting questions about 'was it a kids party' or 'are you training to climb Everest'? People can relate to it, and it is relatable to a general gym experience.

My "general gym experience" usually includes changing rooms, showers, lockers which work and a high level of cleanliness, none which tallies with my general climbing wall experience. 

Which kind of proves my point that it is an inadequate, ambiguous and misleading term when applied to a climbing wall.

Do you have a problem with terms like "big wall" or "north wall" too?

To be fair that's the modern consumer gym experience.  When I was in Year 10 at school one of the options they offered us was to spend an hour at a local gym they had an agreement with - that wasn't something like David Lloyd's or Bannatyne's, it was a proper "sweaty massive blokes on steroids" place with lots of free weights (though we weren't allowed to use those, just the machines), p*ss all over the bogseat and showers you wouldn't go within a mile of for risk of picking up some kind of fungal infection from all the black mould.

A bit more like a climbing wall then

Edit: Amazingly the place still exists!  Though those sorts of gyms are still knocking about, I suppose, it's just a different market from the consumer end.

You've hit the nail on the head there. The guidelines seem very stringent but they are only guidelines and it's not clear how they will be enforced, if at all. As you say, pubs seem to have a fairly varied approach and their clientele even more so.

Clearly it's impossible to clean the holds after every use. In fact it's impossible to clean them properly at all as they are highly porous and mostly quite large. I suppose if you have a bath full of hand sanitiser it would be feasible... But what you can do is clean hands on entry, exit and a few times during the session.

A lot will be down to individual users' risk perception. There are some people on here who will refuse to go to a wall. Others won't care at all about the guidelines. Most will be somewhere in between. Personally I'm keen to go as long as it's not busy.

Insurance can indeed dictate things, to a point. They can't totally screw their clients because if the clients go out of business, the insurers will lose revenue. Thing is, what's the risk of a Covid related claim? Pretty much zero. How is anyone going to prove where they picked up their virus? It's impossible.

Hmm, as an employer if I have an outbreak at work it comes under RIDDOR and by law has to be reported to the Hse who I have no doubt will do an investigation (at my cost these days) and if I don't have what they class as reasonably practicable systems and procedures in place I'm likely to be spanked. I would think somewhere open to the public would be worse. 

Then there is the inevitable rise is no win no fee solicitor's, "did you have covid 19? Let us prove where you got it and give you some free money (not much though because we will keep most of it) it's quite possible the number of track and trace could be obtained by a FOI request. 

They are only guidelines because its impossible to set a law that covered every possible outcome so they issue guidelines as that covers the powers that be arse. 

My most hated term in the world is reasonably practicable, what most of the world class as reasonably practicable and what the Hse class it as can be 2 very different things. I have spent a lot of time in heated discussion with Hse inspectors about what is okay and what isn't. (fortunately not during an investigation in to me)

Under the Puwer regulations its illegal to use tools at work that have been modified in anyway so my 10mm spanner that has been bent for a specific job can't be used despite it being safe as house's, tools also have to come from reputable suppliers with all the correct documentation.

There is going to be a lot of investigation when this is over and a lot of people will be getting fined and a few may even be jailed under corporate manslaughter 

Yay, the good old British way for looking at loop holes

Possibly not unless there are significant outbreaks in them and which point the "the guidance says more frequent use of our normal cleaning products doesnt apply to us because we don't clean them" defence won't cut any ice at all. 

I'm an inspector albeit in a different industry and enforcing authority. We use mostly the same legislation.

I'm not actually sure which legislation will be primarily used to enforce compliance in climbing walls (I'm not up to date with what the actual Coronavirus regs now say) but if it's HASWA74 that is used as you imply (that's where the term reasonably practicable is found) then:

The concept of reasonably practicable is what we call goal-setting rather than prescriptive. It's sometimes frustrating because in a new situation it is up to the dutyholder to argue what health and safety measures are adequate to an inspector rather than them having really clear guidance provided. However where there is common good practice in an industry or a set of specific regs like PUWER are applicable, then it's still pretty clear. The great benefit of the goal-setting approach is in novel situations like this. A prescriptive regime would require parliament or the regulator (if allowed by parliament) to define exactly what must be done in every situation. For climbing walls this would probably be a disaster because the rule setter wouldn't know where to start. The goal setting regime allows a climbing wall to demonstrate when they have done what they believe reduces risks to health and safety as far as reasonably practicable if they become subject to an inspection or investigation. The government guidance will very likely be considered relevant good practice by the inspector and used as a starting point, but if a particular element like cleaning equipment (holds) was demonstrably not reasonably practicable in a climbing wall (costs/time/trouble grossly disproportionate to the benefit), and particularly if they could point to the common relevant good practice of other walls as corroboration of their own practice as well possibly other measures they have taken beyond the guidance where it was practicable to do so, then it is very possible the inspector would consider the legal test to have been met or the shortfall sufficiently small that no action was in the public interest.

What this all means is that our HSE legislation allows for sensible pragmatism on both sides using things like the Covid guidance as guidance, rather than applying strict prescriptive regs that are not practicable in every situation, but still puts the onus on the wall to ensure the health and safety of its staff and the public. It's a very good thing in this scenario.

Cheers

Its important to remember that the pubs are taking names and numbers of all people entering including in and out time. If a person then gets covid after, all people are contacted that were there during that time and the pub shuts. This i should imagine will also happen in gyms/climbing centres. You could have a scenario that they are opening and re-shutting potentially alot. On top there has to be a price increase i would have thought, as they won’t cover all bills otherwise. It is important to centres that group/instructor bookings are done. I believe that that is where they will concentrate their efforts as they are big money earners. I just hope that they all ride the storm out, as they are fantastic facilities. 

It will be interesting to see different approaches. I believe our place are looking at competent adult climbers only to begin with rather than trying to deal with physical distancing with a group under instruction. I think it's still under discussion, so nothing confirmed yet, but this seems to be the intended direction. 

Yes, recording contact details for visitors is within the guidelines, as for pubs and restaurants. 

Ok. Yeah it will be interesting to see what they do. Wish them the best of luck whichever plan they come up with.  

That could be the biggest headache for them. 

Thanks for your answer. 

In the case of a virus spread predominantly through exhaled droplets either inhaled or through injection / adsorption from contact with surfaces and considering the heavy breathing, shouting, sneezing due to chalk dust etc in a climbing wall would you say it was okay to not clean holds and possibly the wall surface as well? 

What sort of distancing would be needed too, we know that exhaled droplets (forget sneezing for now) can travel between 1 and 2 meters from an adult who's mouth is around what 1.6 to 1.8 meters from the floor, how far will they travel on that arc from 10 meters up? 

I'm not trying to be a critic here. I'm genuinely wondering, safety is a very important thing for me and I maintain a very strong safety culture at work and though I have met loads of safety people who are genuine and realistic I have also met quite a lot who can only be described as jobsworth little Hitler who refuse to give any guidance but are very quick to point the finger when anything goes wrong. (I raised a cracking near miss against one last year but that's another story) 

Doesn't look like it is:

https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/puwer.htm

"PUWER requires that equipment provided for use at work is:

suitable for the intended use

safe for use, maintained in a safe condition and inspected to ensure it is correctly installed and does not subsequently deteriorate

used only by people who have received adequate information, instruction and training

accompanied by suitable health and safety measures, such as protective devices and controls. These will normally include emergency stop devices, adequate means of isolation from sources of energy, clearly visible markings and warning devices

used in accordance with specific requirements, for mobile work equipment and power presses"

Doesn't say "not modified" anywhere in that, and you may indeed need to fabricate your own tools for certain specific purposes.

The problem is there are no black/white answers to any of the above. The government is trying to get the economy going again by providing guidance on practices that should significantly reduce the transmission risk. In doing so it has obviously considered which practices would be easier to implement and more acceptable for users, as well as impact on the transmission risk itself. If a particular industry or business believes that one of the measures in the guidance is impracticable in their situation and that some alternative (eg, cleaning only every few hours but asking people to regularly sanitise hands, requiring masks, more distancing, improved ventilation etc, who knows) can be used to reduce the risk equivalently, they may well be able to argue that is adequate. If they can provide some supporting evidence specific to climbing walls, eg possibly evidence of transmission risks with practices in countries where walls have opened, that would probably help no end, but may be very difficult to get.

I'm not giving you an answer here, just helping others understand how the law works. 

People come in all shapes and sizes and inspectors are no exception, they are usually well trained and know how to apply the law though. 

It's an efficient way of saying I'm going to an indoor facility for my regular exercise without prompting further questions. Of course I use 'climbing wall' too, but in some situations 'gym' works better. You obviously have a problem with people calling them 'gyms', I'm explaining why I do use the term.

ensure the equipment is constructed or adapted to be suitable for the purpose it is used or provided for

The was the part that the Hse inspector was taking me to task over, specifically the adaptation of a 10mm spanner to include a 90 degree bend at the open end. How do I ensure it is suitable for use after I have modified it away from the manufacturers design. 

You're joking if you think environmental health will be involved. They've been effectively excluded from day 1.

The localisation of data and risk factors have only just started at local level.

Good luck if you think that data is now available to climbing walls.

Take care.

Here’s what one of the Birmingham walls is proposing. I would describe this as a fairly common sense approach. Clearly smaller facilities or ones which are busier may need a booking system. Interested to see what the other walls do - the Depot is huge but get busy at times; Birmingham Bouldering Center is small so can still get busy for the available space; Redpoint is a relatively small lead and boulder wall so again can be busy for the available area.

http://www.creationwall.co.uk/covid19.html

An outbreak at work can be traced to a workplace relatively easily as that’s the first thing to look at and work is w major transmission vector. I suppose an outbreak at a wall could be traced as well but it’s going to be harder to prove I suspect.

Also it will come down to following industry norms. If most walls are doing one thing but someone is being less stringent, that’s potentially an issue. If everyone is taking similar measures, any government authority would effectively be going against the whole industry - and the association (whatever it’s called) would hopefully support its members.

After all, climbing walls are relatively dangerous places at the best of times due to the inherent risk in climbing - this is managed through appropriate procedures and following industry norms. 

See a You Tube channel called Climber Dad, he concocted a contraption that had anti-bacterial spray on a stick

I don't know whether to give that a thumbs up or a thumbs down

Could that be mitigated by climbers wearing tight fitting surgical gloves and discarding them into a waste bin after every climb? If they split during the climb, then the route would have to be cleaned before the next climber? 

Same for belayers using gym ropes, fresh gloves every time there is a change of belayer?

If I have to wear Covid PPE to climb I'll just wait.

I'm still paying my wall subs so they aren't losing out by me not climbing.

It would be easy to trace an outbreak at a wall. I would expect like pubs that gyms would need to keep records of attendance for the track and trace. 

Agree. The last three or four walls that I went to for the first time all had electronic systems on which I had to log my basic details and sign the usual waiver stuff. They then look your details up each time you visit. Other than making sure your contact details are still in date, there would be nothing further for them to do. Non climbing visitors would need extra effort but I doubt they will be encouraged while numbers are limited anyway.

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On behalf of climbing wall owners can I say a heartfelt "thank you" to you and everyone else who is doing the same.

Cheers.  I've carried on paying when I've had time off due to injury so I didn't really see it as any different, it's not the wall's fault and I still want them to be there when this is all over.

Sure, walls will have records, they already do. The question is how good the contract tracing system is. Workplaces and schools or similar are obvious things to look at. Gyms and walls are less obvious. The contact tracers would have to go through where the person has been and then link it to other people who have tested positive and who have been to the same gym / wall. Of course it's possible but I just don't know how good the system actually is.

The system is marvellous, brilliant, wonderful. Do you not listen to your elected government!

You forgot "world-beating".

FTFY

The pessimist in me is actually wondering not when / how the walls will open but when will they be forced to close again. The general assumption in scientific circles is that we are in for a second wave of Covid over the autumn / winter. The other day there was a reasonable worst case estimate published which suggested a further 120,000 deaths in hospitals alone but this could be a lot lower with various mitigating measures (for example an effective track and trace system and hospitals being better prepared).

I don’t know if we’d have a second ‘full’ lockdown (my suspicion is not, unless the NHS starts getting totally overwhelmed) but we could well have a semi lockdown with a reversal  of the recent relaxation measures. The walls will be among the last things to reopen (concert halls etc will still be closed) and they will be the first to close again - I suspect in November. I am a pessimist though, so perhaps it won’t be as bad.

Nothing wrong with that, a good policy in life is to plan for the worse then breeze through if it doesn't happen. Its better to be prepared and not need than not be prepared and do need. 

It exists. Just use high alcohol liquid chalk. Iv just bought some.

Yup Iv just bought some >75%. I expect most climbing shops and walls sell it now.