UKH

I've only been leading about a year, and I manage to get out on rock about once a month. I backed off an attempted first VS lead (the awkward Twin Cracks at Bamford, VS 4b) the other weekend. On the same day I happily romped up Brown's Crack on lead, and Bilberry Crack on second: in general I'm happy leading HS 4b and seconding VS 4c/5a. I've seconded the odd soft HVS. I'm an older climber who got into it quite late.

But ... I'd like to get to being a reasonable VS leader by the end of the year, as that grade seems to open up a world of quality climbing at most crags.

So, what would be some high quality Peak gritstone VS routes (with good pro, I think) to get over the mental block, and start getting comfy leading at that grade? Hen Cloud / Roaches recs particularly welcome, as I'll be there at the end of the month.

Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c) is great, well protected if you have a full rack of cams, no strenuous positions so you can take your time padding up the breaks.

Heather Wall (VS 4c) also very good, loads of gear, nice moves, a bit more steep and sustained but good hands and feet all the way.

The Mall (VS 4c) at Millstone is fun, I found it quite soft at the grade but I have seen a lot of people struggle. Easier if you can jam a bit.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?sort=g&id=169

Useful graded list.  Pick some you like the look of, but make sure you get familiar with a variety of styles.  

What sort of climbing do you like and get on with? Jamming? Slabs? Juggy & steep? Rounded slopers or sharp edges? 

Well protected routes tend to have harder moves or be more sustained. 

One mans 'easy vs' is another mans horror show!  

Apple Arete at Gardoms is quite a soft touch at VS and in my view a good early intro to the grade.

I think you may struggle to find a good early VS lead at either the Roaches or Hen Cloud as the grades at both crags (especially the latter) tend to be harsher than those on Eastern Grit. At least that has been my experience. 

A mixture really. Steep *if* juggy, hand jamming I'm fine with, I don't like fist jams, slabs I'm usually fine on. I feel I'm getting on well with grit in general at the moment, including the slopey breaks that used to give me the fear.

I did feel that if I went back to lead Bilberry Crack I'd be fine with it, because although it's got 5a layback moves, there's good gear everywhere and I've seconded it clean, including hanging about in strenuous positions wiggling gear out. But would that be the same on a route I didn't already know? Actually that day at Bamford made me wonder if VS 5a, counter-intuitively, might be a better place to look for a first VS lead than a 4b or 4c.

Cheers - yes those look right up my street!

I cant think of a friendly early VS onsight on Hen Cloud or the Roaches.

Unless you have multiple (fist jamming sized) biggish cams I'd beware of Hargreaves: Midgens advice is well intended but I've seen many scary onsights on that route because important sizes had already been used low down. Straight Crack at Stanage is the easiest protected starred grit VS I know. Pretty much all the easiest VS classics on Stanage Popular from definitive graded lists are OK. The Eastern Grit rockfax graded list has some issues... some of the lowest grade routes are unusual and some routes are plainly in the wrong place.....just a couple of blatent examples: their top of the list VS is Chequer's Climb which is mid VS if you can jam. Their bottom of the list is Cosmic Crack which the definitive rightly has at nearly half way up. If the same people who voted all those easier VS Popular End classics as mid VS on average climbed Cosmic Crack the voting for that would have a higher average still.

The moves near the top of Hargreaves' Original VS4c , if you don't deviate left into Macleod's Variation, has quite spaced protection.

Great route though! 

Two examples of short sharp VS 5a's are Trapeze Direct and Bitter.

Fox House Flake (VS 4b) is slabby and follows a hand crack so has gear the whole way. I remember thinking it quite soft for the grade (though youd want good, dry friction as the feet are a bit smeary). 

Burbage north has loads of good climbs that are borderline hs/vs. I'd recommend going and getting on them and not worrying too much about what grade it gets on ukc or in the guidebook you have, as they tend to vary. They're either punchy hard hs or pish vs. If you get on alright with them, you're ready to start getting on vs on the regular. Brooks' Layback (HS 4b), Amazon Crack (HS 4b), Mutiny Crack (HS 4b).

And if it helps, I reckon the hardest move on Quien Sabe? (VS 4c) is the start of Browns Crack.

Not much that stands out, I agree.

On Hen Cloud, I did Hedgehog Crack (VS 4c) fairly early in my leading career.  It's pretty straightforward if you can jam...

Right at the other end of the edge, Little Crack (VS 5a) on Roach End is a good example of a safe VS that isn't too hard after a bit of a bouldery start (jamming again though).   You'd get a good overview of the area if you did them both on the same day!

Via Dolorosa (VS 4c) is the obvious Classic Rock tick but I really wouldn't recommend that unless the first pitch is completely dry.  The top pitch can feel pretty intimidating at the grade too.

Cheers - I can jam (I even enjoy it), so the Roaches/Hen suggestions are helpful.

Also to add, Castle Naze has some very good VS routes. The Crack is low in the grade I thought, and has gear the whole way (above you on the crux). Easy if you bridge.

The other 2 starred VS routes are quite tricky but excellent. The HS routes there are pretty full-on. Try Studio and I dont think The Crack is much harder.

I think you should also ask what routes to avoid The Bulger at the Roaches is one such

Perhaps something like Exchange at Symonds Yat might be a good limestone suggestion? 

The vs crack climbs on stanage I found quite easy. The polish can be a bind on the first couple on meters but they do ease. 

Greeny Crack on Burbage North is friendly with gear the whole way. If you like to hand jam then Pulcherrine is on the same crag could be good (its been a long time since I did it but don't remember any issues).

Depends which ones! I wouldn't say Thrombosis (VS 5a) is a soft vs...

Mississippi Buttress Direct at Stanage is a good early VS lead. Loads of gear and no stopper moves, with good rests in between the hard parts. Inverted V just a couple of buttresses over is also a good suggestion.

Most VS routes are 4c, because the technical grade "matches" the general difficulty of VS. Therefore, a VS 4c route should be adequately protected, at least for the hard but. You may be fully aware of this already.

Most VS 4cs in the Peak are as I have described above, but VSs on grit often come with a stopper move. Almost always these are followed by a decent rest (and gear). 

I vote for Mississippi Buttress Direct (VS 4c) as one superb climb, if you don't mind soon steepness.

Aqua (VS 4b) at the Roaches  was one of my first VS leads a very long time ago.

Not sure I've done it since but the UKC consensus still seems to be that it's fairly soft touch, though not a classic. 

For more quality, but on the other side of the Peak, Cosmic Crack (VS 4c) at Stanage is excellent and well-protected. 

Did this yesterday, there is gear, but it's mostly large cams (take 2 blue cams and 2 yellow, if poss)

To add to the above - Inverted V (VS 4b) is really soft for the grade and well protected. 

Also Topsail (VS 4c) in the same category - one tricky move, but be careful with the gear placement at its a bit worn out from a few falls too many.

In October, the choice will largely be determined by the weather and prevailing conditions.  The Roaches and Hen Cloud do seem to cop for it more than many other grit venues. Best make a choice on the day - there'll be plenty of people with a comprehensive range of guidebooks going on the trip.

Defo heather wall and central trinity at stanage! or top sail at birchen

The worn cam placement on Topsail should not be used. There is a sling thread just below.

My first ever VS many years ago was Missisipi Buttress Direct. Well protected with plenty of places to rest and not really much harder than some of the HS stuff there.

My first VS was Heather Wall at Stanage, did it with entirely passive pro, it was a pleasant route.

Inverted V was a good climb, the stopper move was just a bit burly and was well protected.

Quien Sabe at Bamford I found the hardest move was passing the bulge higher up, but the start up Browns Crack is again quite strenuous.

If you like bridging up corners then The Mall has to be on the list, a good tall route as well.

Easiest Peak grit VS's I've found are:

Inverted V and Cosmic Crack at Stanage.

Central Route abd Aqua at the Roaches

Bel Ami at Curbar.

Byne's Crack at Burbage South.

Nelsons Slab at Birchen, probably downgraded by now...

Yep, although the lower crack of Inverted V is now quite polished.  Take some long slings for the chock stones getting round the overhang.

Both nice solos (if Aqua isn’t too overgrown higher up) but not very well protected.  Central Route, especially, really is pretty bold and not one to fall off.

Yes, pretty straightforward from memory (but it was a very long time ago!)

Hadn't been for a few years and didn't realise it was so bad

Cheers Graham - hope to see you on the trip. Very much hoping Hen Cloud is dry though, took a walk up there in the summer and it looks brilliant.

Definitely progressed a bit since last year when we abbed off Grooved Arete in order to make the pub ...

Many thanks all for the helpful recommendations - I'll be adding them to the wishlist and trying to tick a few over the following months. Definitely looks like I need to get up to Stanage again for a start.

There is a perfectly good thread just below the roof on the left. Sadly, the ugly 'hole' under the lip has been caused by cam erosion.   

Glory Road (VS 4b) is easier than Sin (VS 4c) . The approach chimney probably wants belaying at about V Diff

Aurora (VS 4c) and Evasor (VS 4c) are both class but some experience of choss bothering required for the first pitches of both.

The Gabriel/Pearly Gates is another classic combo.

I'd probably recommend Froth (VS 4c) which is fairly short,  well protected and has a memorable traverse.

It's some years since I did it but I thought Chequers Climb (VS 4c) was tough and I can jam. It's quite complicated to not get some rope drag by the final crack from memory too. Good route though. 

I'd agree about Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c), I've seen good climbers not enjoy it because it's a bit balancey and not super positive. 

Tis nice, but you need small wires and cams and the confidence to move between them. Not really bold, but getting that way maybe if you're not sensible. 

I’ve never really got on with Stoney. The limited number of routes I’ve done there have seemed horribly polished and hard for the grade. Some of the VSs at Cromford always seemed more amenable to me. Although haven’t climbed there for several decades now I always found routes like Broken Toe Groove, Jackdaw Groove, Pupilla and Golden Yardstick very steady and well protected. Guts Ache Groove at Willersley is also OK at the grade. Ravensdale also has some reasonable VSs but I guess they’re possibly both polished from past popularity and overgrown from recent neglect. 
A bit off-the-wall maybe, but this is (was?) a great adventure and easier than I expected Snakes Alive (VS 4c).

Yes Snakes Alive (VS 4c) is a great shout - a well protected classic.

I guess you missed the sprawling sh*t show of a thread at the weekend that both managed to report that access to the best bits of Wildcat had been lost while simultaneously being, in part, the cause of the ban? 

I did Jackdaw Groove last summer as a single pitch, I thought it was great but pretty full on, and it felt quite 4c to me. The crux pitch of Golden Yardstick I seconded, but it seemed really hard. Yes, it is 5a so it should be harder than a normal VS, but I'm not totally sure why it doesn't warrant HVS when there are other HVSs about that don't feel very different. 

But anyway, for the time being at least, this discussion is sadly rather academic!

Anything like the hardest VS classic on the Eastern edges tough...really? Rope drag isn't an issue with half ropes, sensible extension or with an intermediate belay below the final crack. Adjectivally harder than Two Pitch Route, Great Crack, Altar, Broken Crack, Grammarians, Fern, File, Lean Man's Superdirect, Crewcut, Lone Tree Groove, Left Edge, Gunpowder Crack? No way.

Maybe not, I'm not very good at saying what route is harder than another - and suspect it's so subjective that we'll never agree anyway, but in my logbook I commented "proper tough going" so I obviously found it hard work that day.

If you climb it as two pitches then maybe not, but with double ropes you are still traversing miles from the easy cracks it starts up around one full and one mini arete from memory.

Haven't done that one, despite having got through a fair number of Curbar VSs.

The HVS one at Dukes? Well it's HVS. Or the Burbage one? In which case I onsighted that without any great problems even though its 5a and I can fall off grit 5a moves from time to time!

Haven't done it but should try!

Which now gets HVS it seems, although I remember being quite smug finding it not too bad onsighting it when it was VS.

Fern is lovely, File a ladder if you climb it properly, Crewcut not too bad if you have a big cam to walk up ahead of you. Not sure about the others - don't think I've done them, I haven't done Gunpowder but doesn't it get 5b for the start?

All from Eastern Grit 2015 VS section of the graded list with Chequer's Climb at the very top.

I can only think you were having a very bad day as most climbers find the final jamming much easier than the File. It's obvious from looking at it that if you save one half rope to protect the final crack the arete becomes irrelevant to drag. Plus Spiral Route goes round several aretes and is also harder climbing. IMHO from my own ascents (and many others' experienced inputs for the definitives...where Chequer's Climb is half way up the Froggatt guide VS list).

HVS, but you should consider Tody's Wall (HVS 5a) which if you're keen on jamming is a good one for you. It's one well-protected 5a rockover followed by a crack to the top. Otherwise agree with that Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c) is a solid choice as long as you've got some cams, there aren't many (any?) nut placements apart from the bottom and the very top.

Broken Crack shouldn't get HVS - it's just a top end VS as per the definitive guides.

Gunpowder Crack is the easiest one on that list of Offwidth's I think and I agree that all the Wildcat VS's are easier than the routes he listed above.

Otherwise agree with that Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c) is a solid choice as long as you've got some cams, there aren't many (any?) nut placements apart from the bottom and the very top.

Before cams were available I used several hexes when climbing HO. You just need to know how to use them.   

You should consider coming to the Lakes instead for...

Western Wall (VS 4b), Digitation (VS 4c) and Malediction Direct (VS 4c) - a great day of steady VS

North West Arete (VS 4b) and (a bit harder within the grade but safe) F Route and The Crack

Slip Knot (VS 4b) and White Ghyll Wall (VS 4c) (and others that are even more excellent but a bit harder, e.g. Haste Not)

Mendes and Bilberry Buttress on Raven Crag

Brown Crag Wall, Ardus, Eve, Fisher's Folly and Kransic Crack at Shepherds...

The three starred VSs at Trowbarrow...

And many more! They'll feel easy and well protected compared to grit, but on a grander scale!

Quite, we got six hexes in just to prove how many you could use

Thanks for that one, added to my wishlist. 5a VS's do often throw the odd shock into the mix.

Found Golden Yardstick surprisingly easy, although we did arrive fresh from an arse kicking on High Tor Original Route. We thought GY was like a Symonds Yat route. A VS 4b Symonds Yat route.

This kinda make my point to Offwitdth above - grad d list are a bit hopeless because if I find route A hard others will say it's easy then they'll say route B is hard and I'll remember that it went smoothly for me! 😆

I have done one VS at Symonds Yat I think and don't remember it being hard or easy, just VS! 😀

Of the one's you've mentioned, I think Slip Knot is the easiest - I'm sure it used to be Hard Severe, and well protected, and so would make a good first one. I remember Gimmer Crack being pretty straightforward too, and well-protected. Of the others, I think White Ghyll Wall has some perplexing route-finding, Digitation and those other Wallowbarrow ones: quite easy, but not very memorable. F Route very good but quite intimidating for grade. North-west arete: very exposed, so might be a bit scary for a first VS lead. Mendes and Bilberry Buttress I'm sure I remember as being quite hard for grade. The Shepherds ones are all good (Ardus very easy for grade), Kransic Crack I think v hard for the grade, if i remember correctly.

Gargoyle Buttress (VS 4b)

This is one I go back to again and again. It always feels easier than the HS next to it (Manchester Buttress). When I need to get back into leading after a few months or years off Gargoyle was my go to! Once you are past the block it’s a joyful romp and only VS if the block chooses the moment you pull on it to fall off. No number 4 friends behind it !!

I’m always worried when I see Eve (VS 4c) recommended as a first VS. 
First hand experience of seeing someone die on it and I know that was not the only fatality….Agree with the others though.

Brown crag something or other on Shepherds was my first VS back in the day. 

Brown Slabs Crack? A good choice- plenty of gear in the fun twenty feet of 4c climbing. 

You were going well because it definitely isn't.

You can say the same about all grades. If you want to grade well, work out what feels easy or hard for you and grade accordingly. All grades are averages of individual opinions, and, as individual form and conditions vary, totally relying on the experience of one onsight ascent is daft.

I was the same as Alan in finding Golden Yardstick pretty easy for VS but I know it's not from talking to and watching many other experienced VS leaders.

Agree about GY. Mrs Wilko led it and she was always my HVS detector. One well protected traverse move then a well protected jug fest in my memory.

That's my memory of GY as well, and it's the kind of route where on sight makes a big difference because you don't know for sure that there's not another hard move as you go up the "jug fest".

Yes, Slip Knot is a good first one - and MVS is the correct grade. Ardus is also MVS. North West Arete is very well protected (gear on demand) and on big holds all the way, so I think it is a good first/early VS. I think you're being a bit harsh on Wallowbarrow: for me, routes like Digitation are delightful and linger in the mind as a warm fuzziness.

Oh the differences there can be between onsight and reminiscence.

I'm sorry to hear your story - it sounds awful.

Yes, I would agree: not a first VS...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/mississippi_bu... Not too hard for the grade with good gear and nice climbing doesn't feel as steep as it looks as OK  bridged rests.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/straight_crack... easy for the grade just extend your runners where you need to!

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/heather_wall-1... Like indoor wall climbing! positive fairly spaced holds (for the grade but easy enough), good gear just where you want it. Quite steep and nice enough!

Personally I'd avoid Hargreeves original to start with unless you like slabs, it feels more serious than it is and being able to place cams well is a must if you want it to feel well protected.

Make sure you place good pro for the final move. Many years ago I was soloing and fell off the last move (being tired, sweaty hands). There are a couple of small round stones at the bottom. My left heel landed on one of these and I suffered a badly fractured calcaneum. I know of two other people who have suffered the same injury from falling off the final move.

Thanks Colin, 

It was a while ago, Eve is a lovely but potentially dangerous route. People lead the first two pitches in one… gear is potentially poor , or at least not obvious on the slab and if they don’t scream when they fall off the slab the first the belayer knows is when they appear over the edge of the slab moving at high speed . By that stage opportunities to take in rope and prevent a ground fall on rope stretch are very limited. 
Haven’t climbed it since I saw the aftermath of the accident , but if I ever did I would split the pitches so the belayer is instantly aware of the slip… and place high runners up and right of the slab.

I think it was Bill Birketts guidebook that mentioned other fatalities on the route. 

Great route but as you say…not a first VS 

I would second that opinion. When I was younger (in the 1980's) VS leading was my limit. And Eve was definitely the most scared I have been about the run out without gear. 

I don’t think Slip Knot is MVS. Adjectival grades are suppoed to reflect things like seriousness. While pitch one is straightforward (HS 4a at most) and well protected and a pitch where a leader fall is unlikely to result in injury, the second pitch is a much sterner and contrasting proposition. Much more serious, tricky to work out and where a leader fall is likely to be rather unpleasant. May only be 4b (4c in my opinion) but worthy of VS.

I agree. I didn’t think Slip Knot was that good a route. The move into the groove has a level of insecurity and seriousness out of all proportion to the rest of the route. A good route for sure but not a classic. I thought VS overall, technically a bit soft.

Haste Not on the other hand is one of the best VSs anywhere, but definitely not a good first one.

My first VS onsight was Hell Crack (VS 4c) at stanage pop. It's well protected and has a low crux, which is a beefy jamming move. If that sounds like your style it should go down without much drama.

And while at Birchen, Emma's Slab is a non-event and good fun (in my humble opinion). It's really a (protected) one move wonder past the overlap

It's certainly not as serious as some of your Kettle Crag VSs, Roger. Enough gear is there to be had, though it is a bit exciting! Was MVS in the FRCC guide for years, but I won't argue over half a grade... Now, Rockfax putting C Ordinary up to VDiff, on the other hand... utterly outrageous!

You can avoid jamming on the crux of Hell Crack (VS 4c) with a neat bit of laybacking (and I like jamming).

Personally I would jam to avoid laybacking, any day.

Hell crack second ever VS lead. Would recommend it. My first was English overhang at Froggat which I wouldn't recommend as first VS lead.

you surprise me