Going up a grade on Trad

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 Rob892 26 Jun 2019

Has anyone got any advice or recent experience in going up tech grade on trad?

I think i've reached the point where it now feels like a really massive jump to be able to on sight the next grade up (for me its 5C) and i'm not really sure how to go about it. 

I don't really climb with anyone who comfortably climbs trad at this grade, which probably doesn't help. Although we regularly top rope 6a and sometimes manage the odd 6b clean on southern sandstone, the grades just don't seem to compare at all when we travel about. Its completely different on your home crag on a top rope.

Interested to hear others opinions or success stories.

 deacondeacon 26 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

Go bouldering. You get used to pulling hard in safety, near the floor. Then take it to a rope. 

 dunnyg 26 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

I find bouldering can help - if you are regularly bouldering english 6a/6b then you stand a better chance of being able to onsight 5c moves. Working harder sport routes might also help in terms of being physically capable of climbing. I guess it depends what is holding you back.

 jezb1 26 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

Bouldering and sport.

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 MischaHY 26 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

Fitness work is a big factor (check out the Crimpd app for some training sessions) especially endurance work - but for onsighting honestly a big factor is having the confidence to go for it and know you can climb that grade. Whenever I want to push my grade I will headpoint or redpoint that grade a few times first, then start considering onsighting. On sport it's a bit easier to know what might work because circa 2 full french grades under your redpoint is around about where your onsight should lie. Place good gear, choose well protected routes and don't be afraid to fall off. Save the bold stuff for headpoints or when you've got some good margin. 

 Andy Manthorpe 26 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

Bouldering and sport will be good training for this.

Look for E1 5Cs to start with. Try to choose well protected lines. Are there any particular areas or rock types you want to try this on ?

 Ratfeeder 26 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

Not quite sure how south-east grades equate to the usual British tech grades (I'm guessing 6A is about 5b/c and 6B about 5c/6a?). A good idea might be to try a well protected, not too sustained 5c pitch, as you might find on an E1 (e.g. top pitch of Totalitarian in the Lakes - almost a sport route as it has a massive 'peg' to protect the crux, which just one move). 

 summo 26 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

Cover your weaknesses at 5a and b, Steep and juggy, jamming, bridging, balance, layback etc.. If you are limiting in the variety of rock type it will make grades elsewhere seem tougher. 

Progression is like a pyramid, built in layers loads of 4c, several dozen 5a, a dozen 5b and 5c won't feel like a leap.... you'll have encountered a massive variety of moves, bold, or easy and unprotected etc.. there is rarely a substitute for mileage. 

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OP Rob892 27 Jun 2019
In reply to deacondeacon:

> Go bouldering. You get used to pulling hard in safety, near the floor. Then take it to a rope. 

I’ve actually not been bouldering much lately, I remember my first big improvement in trad came after a good boulder trip a few years back. 

OP Rob892 27 Jun 2019
In reply to MischaHY:

Thanks for the reply. I think endurance is a big area which must help a lot on trad routes. A big pitch can take quite a long time and hanging around on 5C moves / steeper walls placing gear and working out moves feels tough for me at the moment.

I’m pretty sure I haven’t got the confidence at the grade because i know it’s a bit above me, my head game seems to be ok. I have thought about head point/redpoint some routes to get used to it, but I feel like it’s not really the right thing to be doing, especially at that grade.

OP Rob892 27 Jun 2019
In reply to summo:

> Progression is like a pyramid, built in layers loads of 4c, several dozen 5a, a dozen 5b and 5c won't feel like a leap.... you'll have encountered a massive variety of moves, bold, or easy and unprotected etc.. there is rarely a substitute for mileage. 

That has been my plan so far up till now. I think it’s worked because I’ve always been strong enough to happily deal with 5b even when I get things a bit wrong, so it was just gaining mileage and experience. 

But 5c moves just feel so much harder! If you climb loads of 5b does that mean you’ll be able to climb 5c? I’m not sure.

 MischaHY 27 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

> I feel like it’s not really the right thing to be doing, especially at that grade.

Yeah, best lose that mindset if you want to progress at a decent rate. It's absolutely fine to work routes before climbing them on lead and helps build up to onsighting them - I headpointed about 6 E5s and one E6 before I did my first E5 onsight. The knowledge that you can climb that grade and even harder is very powerful. Progressing purely through onsight and ground up is far slower and more frustrating. 

In reply to Rob892:

I'm in roughly the same boat as you but have found that bouldering and headpointing are great to build confidence and fitness.

If at all possible getting out occasionally with a better climber and seconding up some stuff a grade or two harder is excellent for confidence, watching better climbers looking really solid on lead and seconding them definitely helps.

 Trangia 27 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

Plus 1 for bouldering. It was doing circuits at Bleau which built up my confidence to move up from leading Severe/HS to leading VS and HVS. In those days we didn't have bouldering mats, so the consequences of coming off were serious, and the Bleau circuits proved to be a huge confidence/technique building boost, particularly where the landings were iffy over roots and smaller boulders. This applied particularly to building trust in your balance and foot placements.

 jkarran 27 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

Pick safe routes and try them. Make sure your tactics are as good as they can be so you're arriving at the hard bits fresh, safe and confident, make sure you've dealt with any other potential worries like confidence in your belayer, viable plan-b to get the gear back etc before you leave the ground.

Don't just stick to trad. Sport climbing, especially red-pointing will teach you where your current limits really lie. Arguably SS toproping counts toward this but it's weird!

Build experience on different rock types, there's really no substitute for experience.

jk

Post edited at 09:51
 Baron Weasel 27 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

I agree with all the above advice, but I'd add to it that if you concentrate less on the grade and more on simply having fun that you'll be more relaxed, over grip less and your head game will improve massively. That's where I'm at with my climbing any way and the improvements are coming as a by product of fun rather than trying.

 Paul Sagar 27 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

Based on my experience (gone from leading HVS this time last year to 3 E2s last week, plan on leading my first E3 by the end of summer).

- as others have said, outdoor bouldering is a good idea. Teaches you to read rock and pull hard in relative safety.

- but don’t forget the gym, which is a massively beneficial training tool if used well. I recommend

1) the start of EVERY session do 30 minutes of low level endurance traversing. On a pump scale of 1-4, never be more than a 2. Try to stay on the wall for the duration. (Bring headphones, it's boring.) This ARC (aerobic recovery and capillary training) is invaluable in trad because it means after a while you just don’t get pumped on easy-medium ground, and that matters a lot when you need to place gear without getting tired/scared

2) boulder in the gym, making yourself do hard moves. This is not a true substitute for bouldering outside, but will improve your capacity to execute hard moves in short sequences of the sort found on trad cruxes

3) climb the slab, a lot. Good footwork is most people's biggest weakness, and it most goes to shit when tired and scared. Good footwork can be the difference between falling off and finding a route easy in trad. The best way to improve footwork is to get used to standing on tiny edges and transferring your weight around in a controlled manner. Hence, the slab is essential. Climb it at least once a week for at least 90 minutes (I do sessions where I only ARC + slab, which have the advantage of not being physically taxing allowing more days of climbing in total.)

- For now, don't bother with the lead wall if your head game is OK (as you say it is). When you want to push beyond E1, start leading at your limit in the gym - fall of regularly, *because you are pumped*. this will a) improve your power endurance meaning you get less pumped less quickly in due course, and b) will teach you to know *exactly* how long you can actually hang on for (often longer than you think) so that when you're leading trad you know exactly what your limits are - and will usually be climbing way under them.

Post edited at 12:39
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OP Rob892 27 Jun 2019
In reply to MischaHY:

> It's absolutely fine to work routes before climbing them on lead and helps build up to onsighting them -

Progressing purely through onsight and ground up is far slower and more frustrating. 

May give this a go. I never really considered it before. As you say going ground up and on-site doesn’t seem like an efficient way to progress further.

OP Rob892 27 Jun 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Seems like some good advice there. I must admit I rarely do any real low end endurance training and considering how long some of the longer pitches can take this makes a lot of sense.

 Coel Hellier 27 Jun 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> 1) the start of EVERY session do 30 minutes of low level endurance traversing.

Wouldn't this be better at the end, as the last thing, not the start? 

 seankenny 28 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

Pick your crags carefully. Some places are more amenable to grade pushing than others.

 Paul Sagar 28 Jun 2019
In reply to Coel Hellier:

I don't find so because 

1) ARC is a good warm up, so reduces injury risk later in the session

2) ARC is incredibly boring and it's really tempting to sack it off at the end of your session because you feel tired (aka can't be bothered). If the rule is you have to do it before the fun climbing, my experience is you're more likely to do it.

 AJM 28 Jun 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> 1) the start of EVERY session do 30 minutes of low level endurance traversing. On a pump scale of 1-4, never be more than a 2. Try to stay on the wall for the duration. (Bring headphones, it's boring.) This ARC (aerobic recovery and capillary training) is invaluable in trad because it means after a while you just don’t get pumped on easy-medium ground, and that matters a lot when you need to place gear without getting tired/scared

I've generally found much the same benefits from doing shorter and slightly more intense stuff, classic "pumped but in control" aerocap rather than ARC. Saves a lot of time.

 Misha 28 Jun 2019
In reply to Rob892:

5b to 5c isn’t that big a jump so don’t overthink it, just go out and try it on well protected routes. Seconding some E2 5c routes would be a good idea as well.

I don’t think you need to go bouldering outdoors or sport climbing to be able to get up 5c, though it would help. You do need to go to the wall a couple of times a week though and do a combination of routes and bouldering there. Wall grading is random but generally being able to onsight 6b+ routes and V3/4 boulders would put you in good stead for trad 5c routes. 

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In reply to Misha:

This. Just find some safe 5c route you like the look of and give it a go. Repeat as often as necessary.

On the whole pyramid thing; I read some book once which said that if you want to climb 5.12, you will learn more from climbing one 5.12 than climbing every 5.10 in the US of A. Very true, I’ve always thought.

And, as others have said, top-rope, dog, cheat, etc. But honestly in my experience JFDI is the main thing.

jcm

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