UKH

So yesterday, I reckon probably 27 or so years after I must have first read about it, I climbed A Dream of White Horses (HVS 4c). The sun shone, the sea sparkled but didn't roar, a slight logistics error meant that we got there an hour late but accidentally timed it perfectly, getting onto Wen slab just as the sun did and the only other party in the zawn were just finishing the route leaving the crag to us. Tony, my partner, is great company and also a hugely talented climber, both in terms of trad trickery and just at pulling hard moves - so really everything was for us. Overall, we actually climbed the route pretty smoothly and, I think, did the route with a minimum of faff, particularly for our first ever time in the zawn. So why was it all such a rather terrifying experience?

I was thinking about this last night and googled "Gogarth Grip", a term I remembered hearing. The top result was this rather fine UKC thread from 7 years ago: https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/gogarth_grip-520203 It definitely seems I'm not alone in experiencing this. Tony, who has climbed 8a, along with being an experienced trad climber who has done big routes in Norway and the US, recently he did some US desert towers like Ancient Art and Castleton Tower, said he felt like turning back as we did the walk over the top of the cliff and minor scramble down just to get to the abseil point! I knew exactly what he meant - my mind was saying "we could just go over to the slate quarries and do some sports routes". There's nothing particularly dangerous about the route - the belays are all good; the way we went (one pitch of Wen from the high tide ledges, then the classic top two pitches of Dream) was all decently protected. Yet still it all felt so intimidating.

I'm nowhere near as good as Tony, but I've climbed harder routes and much bigger routes than Dream. I led the three headwall pitches of Stetind's Sydpilaren (n6-) which in themselves are longer and harder than Dream, but that's forgetting you've done 10 full pitches to get there and there is 1000 mtrs of air below you! I ice climb and winter climb, nothing massively hard but still routes where keeping your head together is vital.  So what it is about a sunny slab above above a gentle sea, and a well known, well protected, well described climb that scared the crap out of me?

Finishing the traverse and pulling into the final (rather easy I thought) gully I was thinking "good, ticked that. Don't need to ever come back here again." By the time I was back home (late!) and getting into bed, I was thinking "hmmm, The Concrete Chimney (HVS 5a) looked pretty good, maybe we'll try that next time..."

In reply to TobyA:

It does get less ‘grippy’ with repeated visits!

But then there are always routes there that will restore the ‘full grip’.

In reply to TobyA:

'he felt like turning back as we did the walk over the top of the cliff and minor scramble down just to get to the abseil point '

That, just there - I got so scared on my first descent to the rap i couldn't move my legs, trivial scramble but surprising level of exposure.

In reply to TobyA:

That's Wen Zawn for you. Next time you see Dave Garnett, ask him about The Men in White Coats

In reply to jon:

I will do. I take it Dave has a good story!

Did you ever get to do Mercury at Carn Gowla? In the 2012 thread I linked you were talking about it.

In reply to TobyA:

Well I haven't done it but you've got the wrong Jon, Toby. I think that must have been be Jon Stewart. 

In reply to jon:

Yes - apologies, it was Jon Stewart of course. And I know you know Dave G from way back when, I don't think Jon S has climbed with Dave.

In reply to TobyA:

Did Concrete Chimney on Friday and can confirm that it is brill.

Climbing is harder than DOWH which better suits the HVS grade. Call me a philistine but I was left a little underwhelmed by Dream... due to the easy technical nature of it - obviously this is more than made up for with the position and exposure, I just wish there was more 5a/b on it. 

As far as grip factor goes I feel a bit more anxious on the main cliff but would struggle to explain why - probably the tidal nature of the base plus the Gogarth pixies. 

In reply to TobyA:

Yes I did. I got really scared on it when a foothold broke off as I started to traverse across the slab. It's just like a South Stack choss route, but bigger.

I would recommend it though - while it threatens to be awful, being permawet and chossy in places, the gear is in solid rock and where you get away from the gear the climbing's not difficult or too loose. It's a huge adventure. But I haven't been back to Carn Gowla...

In reply to TobyA:

Glad you enjoyed it I’ve only done Dream there, but my memory is of a scary, mind focussing, slip on the thin path/grass and you’ll fall over the edge to your certain death, approach to the abseil point. Not my bag really. The route was fine and I wished I’d done it a few years earlier when HVS was my limit as I might have got a bit more ‘grip’ out of it.   

In reply to TobyA:

Hoorah - glad you got it done.

The first time I went to climb Dream, I didn't start! We rocked up on a grey Tuesday in c.1986. no one around. Abandoned the car at the end of the track (no visitor centre then) and walked across. I should say this was the 6th day of a climbing road trip of classics all at VS-E1, so we should have been fine.

The error was to go down the opposite promontory (the finish), to look. Completely psyched us out. Just soooo committing. And no other teams for moral support. And a biggish sea (though not quite the Dickinson photo). And you can't actually from there see two key things - that there are holds rather than blank slab and that it's a slab not a wall. We did some routes on the land crags instead and vowed to return.

The return took 7 years and was the morning of Richard's wedding. Blue sky. Crag again to ourselves, but different vibe completely. We drifted up from the bottom and loved every moment.

In reply to TobyA:

Had a similar experience on Old Man of Stoer recently. Fully gripped by the route. Felt like an E1 rather than VS. I like climbing sea cliffs and had got used to the rock locally before. Could have been that it was cold and the wind was biting but it felt hard and is very hard to protect. Good fun though .

In reply to TobyA:

Not done dream, but Wen was one of my most memorable trad days ever. Epic place in that zawn! Hoping to get back for Dream this year

In reply to TobyA:

Dream's a fabulous route that I thought entirely lived up to its reputation.  I do think, though, that Carn Gowla is yet more scary.  I did Mercury (by the original finish) in 1980 with the late Mark Miller, and although that was a very memorable experience I don't remember being that terrified (probably the insouciance of youth).  The true horror was saved for a much later ascent of Journey to Ixtlan, no technically harder than Dream but which to me felt much more isolating and scary.  The worst moment was seconding the fourth pitch, which traverses in and out of a huge open book corner.  All the leader's gear fell out, so as I rounded the arete to start the traverse into the corner, the ropes led uselessly away from me in a catenary across the waves a few hundred feet below.  The climbing was not hard, but on rock closely resembling stacks of slightly damp digestive biscuits.  Took me some days to recover my composure.

In reply to JohnBson:

I did it on Sunday and was surprised how demanding it felt, not because of the situation (the swim and so on was a good laugh) but simply because two of the pitches were bold, awkward and insecure feeling and would have been anywhere. I had to rest and tension on the gear on the initial traverse because it was so slimy, but that's a different matter! The last stack I did was the E1 on Am Buachaille and it felt more straightforward though with a more serious approach.

In reply to TobyA:

I’m available to recount the tale at Stanage this evening!

In reply to TobyA:

My first ever sea cliff climb in 2012 and it really got me out of my comfort zone. Great climb though! 

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Hmm, possibly I could pop up there. What time are you planning?

In reply to TobyA:

I took my girlfriend on Dream for her first multipitch a few years ago. She'd seconded a few trad routes and was reasonably confident on her feet so I figured it'd be fine. Sure enough, we abseiled in and climbed the first few pitches without problem.

Whilst leading the last pitch I heard her singing to herself on the belay and thought 'wow, she's way more chilled about this than I was on my first time on Gogarth'. She seconded the last pitch without problem and we celebrated with victory cheese. 

It was only a couple of years later that she told me she was singing to block out the gripping fear and that she only went on the route in the first place because we'd just got together and she wanted to look like a tough climber! We've since done quite a few much harder and scarier routes in places like Verdon though so it can't have that much of a negative effect... :') 

Personally I think the 'grip' effect comes from the arena-like nature of the Zawn. In heavy weather with the waves crashing into the base of the cliff it's remarkably like being trapped in the eye of a storm - safe, but with a maelstrom mere metres away. What a remarkable place. 

In reply to TobyA:

https://www.theprojectmagazine.com/photoessays/2018/1/4/jethrogogarth

the Gogarth feeling 😀

In reply to TobyA:

Nice post. However, I can assure you doing Stolen Chimney on Ancient Art is in a different league of terror to Dream, even the easy way with the odd aid move as we did it. 200 odd metres down in every direction and climbed with unavoidable 5b moves on holds made out of solidified mud.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105717310/stolen-chimney

"Ancient Art's Stolen Chimney is not a sport climb and should not be attempted by any climber who is not very comfortable climbing 5.10.  There are places on each pitch where if you fall you will likely die. At the very least you will be badly hurt. The replaced bolts are nothing more than than a modern version of what the original ascent party had. They can be manipulated by people or damaged by the elements in such a way that they are not safe.  For this reason any climber attempting this route, or any other non-sport climb for that matter, should assume that their most trusted piece of protection is their ability to NOT fall. Climbing is dangerous. Its even more dangerous in the Fisher Towers. Do not approach this route with a sense that it is easy. 

Sam Lightner, Jr."

In reply to Offwidth:

Interestingly Tony was saying he found Ancient Art all surprisingly 'normal' and he thoroughly enjoyed it. We were chatting about some UKC argument whilst walking back to the car on Sunday, and your name came up. I said you to should meet sometime as you both have a great love of climbing in the American west! I should try and persuade him to attend one of the Peak area meetings sometime.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I remember going out across it, placing the biggest cam I had the time and slithering back to the belay, I send Ed across on the basis he's huge so should be able to reach over the slime for some better holds - which he did: hero. I think Gareth and I probably then followed with a back rope to the tat that our tyrolean was attached to.

My understanding was that now many people swim a bit further (or boulder hop at low tide?) and skip the first traverse?

I remember the rest of the Old Man of Stoer just being fun - I did wonder at the weekend if it was the sea that was freaking me out at Gogarth - I have sea cliff climbed from Reiff down to Sennen, but I haven't done as much as many - but I don't think it could have just been that, as I've had very enjoyable days on sea cliffs in the past. 

In reply to TobyA:

I found it normal to the corkscrew, as grit honed skills really help. The corkscrew is weird and maybe I did the lower section a hard way (anticlockwise) but it felt like the living end of 3D strangeness and protected by bolt that was  more manky looking than I liked. It certainly pushed me into self preservation focus mode. To reach the top there was a pull on a small expanding flake that I wouldn't have done without another bolt being next to it.  I pulled onto the summit having climbed as zoned in as I can ever remember for a 10m section, and foolishly relaxed a bit as I stood up in triumph, and only just stopped myself toppling straight back off as the top block rocked!

In reply to MischaHY:

I seconded the traverse pitch also, and I reckon your missus might have got the tougher of the options in doing so!  Tony very carefully protected that pitch with me in mind as much as him - but even still you are invariably when seconding having to take gear out and then do tricky moves (often down) with the rope going out to your left, not nice and comfortably going up past your nose!  

I actually only seconded the three pitches we did but I don't actually think I missed out much on the excitement (originally I was going to lead P2, the big flake traverse up left then down to concrete chimney). I had to down climb that chimney bit on P2 taking the gear out, and until the very last moves of P3 probably seconding is no better or worse than leading!

In reply to TobyA:

At this point my reply to Goucho in a thread about High Pressure  https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/high_presure_on_high_presure-667...  (a runout route that cuts across Dream) might amuse you:

In reply to TobyA:

I have fond memories of Dream and have climbed it a few times, usually in pleasant conditions. The most memorable, however, was on my guides test which was very wet and very windy. Brown foam floated up from the sea and had to be flicked off holds, ropes lashed up and down off the traverse pitches and slings tried to lift themselves from my shoulders! That felt quite adventurous! I find Gogarth a friendly place but I couldn't say for certain why, I'm as subject to the weight of intimidation as anyone else.
 

In reply to TobyA:

At low tide and a calm sea you can walk/scramble around the back and easily up onto the big platforms above the traverse and the first wall. It would need to be a *really* low tide to boulder hop across the channel though.

In reply to elliptic:

I boulder hopped when I first did it 20 years ago. This last weekend, with a full moon, we thought it might be possible, but it was nowhere near - not even clear where it might be possible at times. The time we hopped, we set up a retrievable Tyrolean to get back. This last weekend we couldn't be bothered to set up a Tyrolean, so we all just swam. By the time we got down, someone else had set one up, but it would have seemed like cheating to use it, so we swam back too through the scary seaweed at low tide!

In reply to TobyA:

I asked the question about epic,s on Dream last year, but im crap at finding things so here is my 2

About 10 years back (don't keep a diary} I followed a team around it that included Harry Morhouse (Denni's son)  He found on the last pitch about 10 runners with crabs ect just hanging there.  We had lots of debate on how they got there all on their own. "nd had a top rope and went up C C being the favourite one. Harry being a good sort put a note on the wall in Petes and the gear got returned to its owner.  The story was the second was too gripped to get the gear off and just left it crabs and all.                                Last year I was on the prom just looking and there in the CC  belay nicely coiled was a blue & yellow rope's running all around the last pitch and tied off above the last  little grove. I enquired on here how the 2nd got out ?   No response.   the ropes must had been there for a few days.

Then that week a pic appeared on here entailed living the Dream with a guy leading the last pitch with a blue & yellow rope. Its also tilted about 35 degrees so makes it look about E5 instead of easy VS with a bit of a exposure .

Then there is the big waves that come's from the Ferry 20 mins after it's out of sight.  I was boulder hopping across the zawn  once when my partner informed me they could not swim.  The only answer was " carrying that much gear it wont make any difference if you could"

I watched a team abing down from the top of the prom to the left of Conan the Librarian once and they stopped about 30' above the water behind a huge flake. About 2 mins after they got sorted the waves came in.  The white surf was coming at them from both sides of the flake. If the tide had been any higher they  would have been in real trouble . The wave's must be 10 feet above normal and when they come into the zawn they get trapped and back up into the next one. Awe inspiring to see it turn from flat to dangerous   in an instance with no warning.

Didn’t find Wen Zawn too bad the couple of times I did Dream (Arête Starr).

But when we abbed in to do Wen the ab ropes snagged on a spike. A sobering moment realising this as we were perched on the boulders.

Luckily 3rd member of the party was up top sitting it out. (I think he’d just soloed it). And he had a spare rope. But by the time it was all sorted out we finished Wen in the dark.

”Just one more quick route...”

In reply to Robert Durran:

Glad it's not just me. Probably didn't help that it was 8degrees and blowing a hoolie when we did it. Cold hands might be no excuse but they, and the rest of my body were numb and unweildy. The swim didn't help matter much. Great route though. 

In reply to Deadeye:

We too, in May 1973. Wen slab looks vertical from there. We were horrified at the prospect and about to run away then, luckily for us, two blokes appeared at the top, chucked their ropes down and abbed into it. Of course the ropes only reached partway down and we couldn't work out what they were going to do when they reached there. They calmly got off the ab ropes and began mooching about looking for belays. When we'd got over the surprise we realised there were ledges and worked out the angles and so went down, only we went all the way to the beach and started the route from there.

In reply to TobyA:

I found Wen Zawn ok, but that's probably just me. I think a Swanage apprenticeship maybe helped. The Wen ab point was pretty obvious once located, which gave confidence, and it helped the psych to be able to look at the face in advance from the side. I'd say Lundy has the most intimating cliffs that I've visited. Partly because of the length of the abs and partly because I was never 100% that I was actually in the right place. Also because of the big tidal patterns there. 

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Most of Wen Zawn is averagely scary sea cliff. Terrifying if Stanage is your reference point, casual if you’re familiar with Carn Gowla. The back wall is another matter of course. 

In reply to flaneur:

I would say above average. I'm sure some people could think of more intimidating sea cliffs, Carn Gowla keeps getting mentioned, Lundy, I imagine some of the big cliffs on Pabbay might be more intimidating as well, St John's Head on Hoy must be easily more scary - but I suspect Wen is one of the more intimidating sea cliffs that many of of us will have climbed on.

I've never climbed at Ogmore - doesn't that have a reputation of being pretty terrifying?

In reply to TobyA:

Dream was the first route there I enjoyed. My first route was Fifth Avenue March 1967 when on an early ascent I fell off the crap rock  near the top and took off the end of my little finger. 13 operations later I returned in September to try Gogarth itself with someone who had only been climbing 18 months. I led Pitch 1; he sailed up pitch 2 which I only managed to follow by massive cheating; we then had to bail from the next pitch in rain. A year later I followed Dave Potts up a couple of VSs, my first successful climbs there; "Still don't like the rock, much steeper than it looks, but I shall have to get used to it''. One or two further classic VSs and days of wet struggling when Anglesey proved its weather was no better than in the mountains: but my first day of pleasure was Dream in March 1975 when, safely as middleman I chortled to my diary, "Superb XS+ position VS climbing". And that was it for ten years when at last  I more or less came to terms with the place and started enjoying the position and exposure of some of the well known North Stack routes. i ended my Gogarth experience  with the vicarious thrill of following Mouse Trap and Wendigo on the South Stack. Perhaps my Dolomites training had made me appreciate that sort of rock and position.

But by that time (mid 80s) i'd discovered the real pleasures and excitement of Pembroke along with other sea cliff climbing, and never had the slightest temptation to return to Anglesey. For me it always remained a place that lived up to its reputation as you imply, clouded by my first encounters with it.  

In reply to jon:

So, I climbed with Dave and co at Stanage last night and he recounted The Men in White Coats story to us. It's just plain weird and spooky - as your wife must have spent a bit more time with the Men in White Coats as, at least in Dave's telling, she was extracted from the zawn first, I'd love to hear her recounting of it too! Did they really not say word, even as they presumably untied her from the rope and then re-dropped it into the void to fish Dave out as well? What were they wearing under their white coats? Did they just hold the rope in their hands or was there some sort of belay set up involved? Could possibly they have had some kind of memory destruction or confusion device like their friends the Men in Black? So many questions now!

In reply to TobyA, jon, Dave

C'mon. Let's have the story. You can't leave us with these enigmatic asides about spooky Men in White with our tongues hanging out! 

with our tongues hanging out! 

In reply to TobyA:

I seem to remember Dave relating the story way way back on here but can’t find the thread now. I think I’m correct in saying that his account was identical to Hilary’s (which she has related to me numerous times). She’s as much in the dark about it all as Dave! More later...

In reply to jcw:

It's not my tale to tell - hopefully DaveG can find his past re-telling of it on UKC (which I don't remember reading) or will have some time to type it out again. But it is perhaps the strangest of climbing story I've heard! Sorry to just tease more, but it's worth the wait.

In reply to TobyA, jon, Dave 

Crew from Soviet sub lurking in international waters amusing itself watching climbers through it periscope. Spots something amiss nips into help, white naval uniforms: no words spoken in case anyone recognizes Russian. Disappear sharply. Does that fit?

In reply to TobyA:

Wen Zawn isn’t that intimidating because you can see what you’re going to get. Now abbing in to a big, steep sea cliff is always quite exciting...

In reply to TobyA:

I seconded the final traverse the first time I did it, and felt the need to lie down for 5 minutes afterwards. 

I led it the second time, and wondered what all the fuss was about ...

In reply to TobyA:

I wouldn't pay too much attention to what I say. My climbing has become very unbalanced over the last few years, with too much time trying projects, and too little time in the mountains.

The bouldering, sport and small amount of trad climbing that I've done recently hasn't involved exposed approaches (except St Bees Head!) and no amount of pulling on small limestone crimps can prepare you for that. I think that being sure footed when moving around cliff tops is a really important skill, and like anything else the confidence comes with practice and spending time in situations like that. This is something that I simply haven't done, and it caught up with me at the weekend. I did do Crib Goch on Wednesday, and whilst I wouldn't say it was intimidating; it was a little more exciting than I had remembered.

In reply to TobyA:

I think the Sea Cliff experience is a special one, especially when you are walking down to them. The drop just comes up at you and is really intimidating. Although that said with gogarth the rock can be a little soap at the start and it unlike other rock in that it can feel insecure at times.

My favourite combination is the 'Concrete Dream' linking the pitches of the concrete chimney from the ledge about 20 above the sea to reach the final 'concrete chimney belay on Dream. Then climbing the last pitch of dream again. As the top pitch of CD is not as spectacular.

Although you can also do the Quartz Icicle instead if you want a slabby and thin E2.

In reply to TonyB:

Crib Goch?! You're dangerously close to becoming a mountaineer once again Tony! Don't worry, I've got lots of spare ice axes I can lend you since you sold yours and bought a clip stick. 

How about Cloggy for our next classic trad excursion?

In reply to TobyA:

I can assure you I'm not. One ridge doesn't make you a mountaineer...... and, I went straight from the Pen y Pass car park to the Cromlech Boulders.

I've never even seen Cloggy so that could be fun.