Gimmer abseil....

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 r.greaves 03 Jul 2020

Is there an abseil down the west face to get to f route, and if so is it easy to find from top of gimmer crack on upper north west face.....

Thanks rich

1
 Jon Stewart 03 Jul 2020
In reply to r.greaves:

Yes, there's an in situ chain. I know how to find it from the top of the crack. I can't guarantee you’ll find it easy to find, but the modern guidebooks will show where it is. It's not hidden. 

1
OP r.greaves 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Thanks Jon, much appreciated. 

 Mark Eddy 03 Jul 2020
In reply to r.greaves:

Yes, go right from the top of The Crack, following the crag going slightly down until you get to a massive boulder with chain around it. Abseil goes to Ash Tree ledge, it's no more than 50m.

Be a bit damp up there just now though!

In reply to Mark Eddy:

It would be useful if there were another abseil chain from Ash Tree Ledge to get one down to the bottom of the 'Asterisk' wall, whatever that's called. I don't remember any abseil chains on Gimmer 'in the old days' (70s-80s), but then memory plays lots of tricks.

 Mark Eddy 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

There are abseil stations at either end of Ash Tree Ledge, including one at the top of Asterisk. Not chains, unless they've been updated recently. But I've always found them to be in decent condition.

 Darron 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Yes, I’m a bit shocked that there is an abseil chain on Gimmer. Is this a p.ss take?

20
 Jon Stewart 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Darron:

> Yes, I’m a bit shocked that there is an abseil chain on Gimmer. Is this a p.ss take?

No, it's been there for years. I think some people moaned a bit, and then just started using it like everyone else.

Would you prefer a bunch of brightly coloured rotting tat?

1
 GPN 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Darron:

Aye, much better the abseil was equipped with 15 types of rotting cord in the traditional British fashion. The chain’s been there a few years, but presumably you were too shocked to notice?

1
 GPN 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Snap

1
 GrahamD 03 Jul 2020
In reply to GPN:

>  The chain’s been there a few years, but presumably you were too shocked to notice?

Of course the walk off has been there even longer 🙂

3
 GPN 03 Jul 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

...and it’s still there now

In reply to Mark Eddy:

> There are abseil stations at either end of Ash Tree Ledge, including one at the top of Asterisk. Not chains, unless they've been updated recently. But I've always found them to be in decent condition.

That's really good news.... What an amazing crag Gimmer is, one of the most attractive south of Scotland.

 Tom Valentine 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I think the Gimmer experience would be improved by a chairlift starting in the ODG car park. It would save all that noisome walking. 

1
In reply to GrahamD:

> Of course the walk off has been there even longer 🙂

Not quite sure what you mean by the 'walk off'. Fine, if you're going straight home, i.e. back to Old Dungeon Ghyll, but otherwise you used to be stuck with two quite nasty/serious descent gullies, Junipall and the other slightly tamer one on the other side.

 Darron 03 Jul 2020
In reply to GPN:

> Aye, much better the abseil was equipped with 15 types of rotting cord in the traditional British fashion. The chain’s been there a few years, but presumably you were too shocked to notice?

The first route I ever did was on Gimmer. In 1974. Been there many times since but not for quite a while (obvs). Hence, I am shocked yes. Ah well, progress I guess.

1
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> No, it's been there for years.

The chain isn't exactly "around a boulder". It has always bothered me somewhat in case the placement moved at all. Nevertheless, it gets a lot of use and I have never heard anyone question it. Nothing wrong with the chain, just the mechanics of the placement in my opinion.

DC

 Rog Wilko 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

One of the benefits of the ab chain is that no-one now attempts the hazardous descent of Junipall Gully, which has reverted to being a nicely vegetated feature rather than an eroded death trap. An unfortunate aspect is that there is a very effective rope trap consisting of a small spike in a groove on one of the alphabet routes. I wonder how many reading this thread have fallen foul of this? I found that heading left  for about 15 m (facing in) along Ash Tree Ledge before attempting to pull your ropes down obviates the problem. Being stuck on Ash Tree Ledge as it's getting dark trying to free your ropes makes for an exciting end to the day. 

 babymoac 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Hey Gordon,

Isn't learning how to descend down a  low challenge gully on a  low challenge crag like Gimmer part of gaining the experience to get off serious crags ? 

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 GPN 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Darron:

> Hence, I am shocked yes. Ah well, progress I guess.

15 years ago the knee jerkers were declaring the Gimmer chain to be the thin end of the wedge. I think it’s now safe to say they were wrong...

Post edited at 00:11
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 GrahamD 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Funny how memory goes.  I don't recall the walk/scramble off descent to be that bad.  Not that I don't use the ab chains now.

 C Witter 04 Jul 2020
In reply to r.greaves:

The ab stations are really great for anyone wanting to actually get some climbing done; I can't believe anyone would moan about them. They're all removable, anyway - even the chain. We're not talking about bolts.

One of my most memorable abseils was from the top of the West Face, having topped out in a hoolie. We set up the abseil, threw our ropes over the edge, and watched as they flew out to levitate horizontally.

 

1
 pec 04 Jul 2020
In reply to C Witter:

> One of my most memorable abseils was from the top of the West Face, having topped out in a hoolie. We set up the abseil, threw our ropes over the edge, and watched as they flew out to levitate horizontally.

One of mine was abseiling off the chain on one rope folded in half after forgetting it's not long enough to reach the Ash Tree ledges!

Fortunately I had tied knots in the ends and had the other rope on my back so was able to place some gear to clip into, take myself off the abseil rope, tie both ropes together, pull them through until the knot was back up at the chains and continue the abseil to the ledges.

Not dangerous, but a right old faff and time waster.

1
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Would you prefer a bunch of brightly coloured rotting tat?

...yes; I am constantly amazed the climbing community appears happy to accept, and, in many / most cases, abseil off, bunches of brightly coloured, rotting tat that now litter the mountain crags of England and Wales (can't speak for Scotland but I suspect its much the same story)... 

... many of these 'abseil-stations' are often situated above the line(s) of popular routes (thinking the tree at the top of Grim Wall at Tremadog, the one mentioned in this post at the top of Asterisk on Gimmer... I could go on...) and on busy days are an accident-waiting-to-happen...

... discreetly placed and sensibly positioned abseil chains would be much more sensible but, like so many potentially controversial topics that arise, we are incapable of having a grown up and rational conversation about this...

1
In reply to GrahamD:

I remember the first time coming down that Junipall Gully it seemed fine, then about two years later, quite scary and serious-feeling. The gully the other side I remember as being on much cleaner, good rock, so fine, but if you wanted to get back round the toe of the buttress to the other side again it was quite a long way. 

In reply to Richard Wheeldon:

I've never heard anyone complain about the chain at the top of the In Pin.

 Rick Graham 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Richard did not mention the B word.

It is unfortunate that some climbers confuse chains on bolts with chains as metal slings.

Chains / slings can only be placed on threads,  spikes and large blocks.

These are often not in the ideal position . Rock stability, rope pulling, conflict with popular routes and other issues.

I surmise that bolted belays which can be placed optimally are perhaps an answer if a consensus agreement can be reached , somehow.  

My moneys on around 2040.

4
In reply to Rick Graham:

Nor did I. IIRC, the chain just goes round the big summit block on the In Pin with some kind of sleeve to protect it. At least that's how I remember it in the early 90s.

Post edited at 17:08
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Richard did not mention the B word.

> It is unfortunate that some climbers confuse chains on bolts with chains as metal slings.

> Chains / slings can only be placed on threads,  spikes and large blocks.

> These are often not in the ideal position . Rock stability, rope pulling, conflict with popular routes and other issues.

> I surmise that bolted belays which can be placed optimally are perhaps an answer if a consensus agreement can be reached , somehow.  

> My moneys on around 2040.

... you read my mind Rick... yes, carefully placed bolt belay chains (although I'd call them abseil chains and place them, where possible, away from routes so they couldn't be used for anything other than abseiling from) is exactly what is required...

... the placement of these could be discussed / decided on at BMC area meetings where a common consensus could be arrived at - unfortunately, like you, I suspect this common sense approach is someway off as a lot of folk become completely irrational at the mere mention of the 'B' word...

2
 C Witter 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Richard Wheeldon:

> ...yes; I am constantly amazed the climbing community appears happy to accept, and, in many / most cases, abseil off, bunches of brightly coloured, rotting tat that now litter the mountain crags of England and Wales (can't speak for Scotland but I suspect its much the same story)... 

> ... many of these 'abseil-stations' are often situated above the line(s) of popular routes (thinking the tree at the top of Grim Wall at Tremadog, the one mentioned in this post at the top of Asterisk on Gimmer... I could go on...) and on busy days are an accident-waiting-to-happen...

> ... discreetly placed and sensibly positioned abseil chains would be much more sensible but, like so many potentially controversial topics that arise, we are incapable of having a grown up and rational conversation about this...


Just because this is your opinion, doesn't mean that it's the only grown-up or rational view. In fact, your own view is pretty irrational: 

1. Tat, brightly coloured or not, can be removed and replaced very easily. By all means do so. Your description of "bunches of brightly coloured, rotting tat that now litter the mountain crags" though is pure hyperbole.

2. Some ab stations are above popular lines. But, it's pretty straightforward to check if anyone's below you. You seem to see accidents waiting to happen all over the place. Yet... when was the last time you heard of a significant accident occurring in this manner?

3. Why would bolted abseil chains be "much more sensible"? They are divisive; they are more expensive; they are also subject to corrosion and damage; they involve irreparable damage to the rock; and, after all this, they do exactly the same job as a good bit of stout tat and a crab or ab ring.

4. Now, go climb in the Dolomites and look at the way that a place like the Cinque Torri is beetling with corroded iron work, now-loose cemented lower-offs and ab stations where two shiny bolts sit next to two corroded bolts and another pair of drilled holes.

There's nothing "hysterical" or "childish" involved in the case against bolted belays on UK crags. 
 

8
In reply to r.greaves:

I guess the migratory birds must have been in lockdown too. 

Good to see ukc's very own first swallow of spring arrive.

Every year, without fail. 

J1234 04 Jul 2020
In reply to C Witter:

> Just because this is your opinion, doesn't mean that it's the only grown-up or rational view. In fact, your own view is pretty irrational: 

> 1. Tat, brightly coloured or not, can be removed and replaced very easily. By all means do so. Your description of "bunches of brightly coloured, rotting tat that now litter the mountain crags" though is pure hyperbole.

> 2. Some ab stations are above popular lines. But, it's pretty straightforward to check if anyone's below you. You seem to see accidents waiting to happen all over the place. Yet... when was the last time you heard of a significant accident occurring in this manner?

> 3. Why would bolted abseil chains be "much more sensible"? They are divisive; they are more expensive; they are also subject to corrosion and damage; they involve irreparable damage to the rock; and, after all this, they do exactly the same job as a good bit of stout tat and a crab or ab ring.

> 4. Now, go climb in the Dolomites and look at the way that a place like the Cinque Torri is beetling with corroded iron work, now-loose cemented lower-offs and ab stations where two shiny bolts sit next to two corroded bolts and another pair of drilled holes.

> There's nothing "hysterical" or "childish" involved in the case against bolted belays on UK crags. 

You tell em

In reply to C Witter:

> Just because this is your opinion, doesn't mean that it's the only grown-up or rational view. In fact, your own view is pretty irrational: 

... yep, it is my opinion... forums, by their very nature, are a platform for folk to express their opinions... whether or not my opinion is irrational is your opinion which you are entitled to express... not sure  I ever suggested my opinion was the only grown-up or rational view...

> 1. Tat, brightly coloured or not, can be removed and replaced very easily. By all means do so. Your description of "bunches of brightly coloured, rotting tat that now litter the mountain crags" though is pure hyperbole.

... yep, again you are correct... tat can be removed and / or replaced... unfortunately 99% of climbers never do this; they just clip in, cross their fingers and hope for the best. I've climbed on mountain crags in England and Wales for over 30 years now and, undoubtedly, bunches of coloured, and in many cases, rotting tat now litter the crags... compared to 20 years ago, the likes of Tremadog, The Grochan, The Mott... the crags in the Ogwen Valley (I could go on and mention many more) have been subject to this trend...

> 2. Some ab stations are above popular lines. But, it's pretty straightforward to check if anyone's below you. You seem to see accidents waiting to happen all over the place. Yet... when was the last time you heard of a significant accident occurring in this manner?

... again, not sure my original post suggested "I seemed to see accidents waiting to happen all over the place"... I merely pointed out some places such as the Western Gully on Dinas Mot, the abseil point at the top of Grim Wall at Tremadog and the abseil point at the top of Asterisk on Gimmer were accidents waiting to happen... having witnessed the goings-on at these locations on busy days in recent years, I stand by this opinion...

> 3. Why would bolted abseil chains be "much more sensible"? They are divisive; they are more expensive; they are also subject to corrosion and damage; they involve irreparable damage to the rock; and, after all this, they do exactly the same job as a good bit of stout tat and a crab or ab ring.

.... in my opinion, bolted abseil stations can be placed in a convenient locataion thus avoiding possible conflict with climbers on routes... the problem with 'tat' abseil stations is they can only be placed where there is a handy tree or thread...

... who says they are divisive... in your opinion, which you are entitled to express, you may think they are divisive... I don't share that opinion... and the expense / corrosion / damage issue is a non argument... you'll have to do better than that as is the argument they damage the rock... any number of outdoor activities damage the environment they take place in, again, this is a non argument...

> 4. Now, go climb in the Dolomites and look at the way that a place like the Cinque Torri is beetling with corroded iron work, now-loose cemented lower-offs and ab stations where two shiny bolts sit next to two corroded bolts and another pair of drilled holes.

... why compare the Dolomites to the mountain crags of North Wales or the Lake Distrct... again, the is a non-argument... I could just as easily cite my experience of climbing in the Lofoten Islands where many, if not most of the routes were adventurous and naturally protected but had bolted abseil stations... at no point did this detract from the climbing experience... in actual fact, for me, it meant an enhanced climbing experience...

> There's nothing "hysterical" or "childish" involved in the case against bolted belays on UK crags. 

... the clincher for me though is the last line of your post and illustrates perfectly the 'blind-spot' that afflicts folk when the 'B' word is mentioned... at no point in my posts have I advocated bolted belays... I've put forward an argument for bolted abseil stations... there is a significant difference...

Post edited at 23:41
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 C Witter 05 Jul 2020
In reply to Richard Wheeldon:

I'll grant you the pedantry of your final point. As for the rest, I offer counter-arguments whilst you are simply pontificating. If we had as much rock as Norway or Italy, I'd be content to see bolted abseils as the norm. Given the precious little rock we have in the UK, I'm keen bolts of any sort are tightly controlled. Returning to Gimmer, the ab stations that are there are adequate and there's no need for bolts of any sort. That is actually already the consensus.

4
In reply to C Witter:

> I'll grant you the pedantry of your final point. As for the rest, I offer counter-arguments whilst you are simply pontificating. If we had as much rock as Norway or Italy, I'd be content to see bolted abseils as the norm. Given the precious little rock we have in the UK, I'm keen bolts of any sort are tightly controlled. Returning to Gimmer, the ab stations that are there are adequate and there's no need for bolts of any sort. That is actually already the consensus.

...interesting you suggest you are expressing reasoned arguments whilst those you disagree with are pontificating... fair enough...

... but yet again, your reply illustrates the blind-spot pertaining to the 'B' word... at no point have I suggested a free-for-all, or the wholesale placing of bolts; in fact I was at pains to suggest this could / should be an issue to be discussed and agreed upon by the climbing community through forums such as the BMC area meetings...

... if the consensus re Gimmer is the majority think things are ok as they are; I'm ok with that... I am merely putting forward an argument that the placing of one or two carefully thought out abseil stations on certain crags is a far better solution than the unsightly, and in many cases, poorly positioned bunches of tat that have sprung up over recent years... I think this is a discussion that needs to take place...

Post edited at 00:49
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In reply to Richard Wheeldon:

Surely, the answer to old tat is not to complain about it but to cut it off, and replace it with a new sling. A sensible tradition seems to be to cut off old crap, leave half decent looking slings and then add a new sling to rap station if there is the slightest doubt about the remainder. I think up three half decent slings and one good new one on rap station is quite acceptable. No point cutting all the old ones off. And, surely, bolts should only be placed if the rap station is deemed essential and there is nowhere for slings?

1
 C Witter 05 Jul 2020
In reply to Richard Wheeldon:

> ...interesting you suggest you are expressing reasoned arguments whilst those you disagree with are pontificating... fair enough...

Your only response was to call my arguments "non-arguments". When you suggest that bolts on UK mountain crags being divisive is only "an opinion", and that damage to rock is a "non-argument" because "any number of outdoor activities damage the environment they take place in" you are clearly talking through your hat. You are also contradicting yourself. We can't have an adult conversation because people are so hysterical about bolts, but the issue of bolting isn't divisive. Tat "litters the crags" but pointing out that bolting is damaging is irrelevant because we're always damaging the environment. "Pontificating" was my best attempt at being polite.

At the end of the day, if a BMC meeting were stupid enough to decide to place bolted abseil stations on Tremadog or Gimmer after a century of us managing without them, they'd be chopped within a week and we'd have some pointless drill hole scars on our crags next to the rotting tat. It's not a discussion we need to waste any more time having.



 

3
In reply to C Witter:

> Your only response was to call my arguments "non-arguments". When you suggest that bolts on UK mountain crags being divisive is only "an opinion", and that damage to rock is a "non-argument" because "any number of outdoor activities damage the environment they take place in" you are clearly talking through your hat. You are also contradicting yourself. We can't have an adult conversation because people are so hysterical about bolts, but the issue of bolting isn't divisive. Tat "litters the crags" but pointing out that bolting is damaging is irrelevant because we're always damaging the environment. "Pontificating" was my best attempt at being polite.

> At the end of the day, if a BMC meeting were stupid enough to decide to place bolted abseil stations on Tremadog or Gimmer after a century of us managing without them, they'd be chopped within a week and we'd have some pointless drill hole scars on our crags next to the rotting tat. It's not a discussion we need to waste any more time having.

... yep, am happy to agree to disagree...

Post edited at 11:13
 George_Surf 05 Jul 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> No, it's been there for years. I think some people moaned a bit, and then just started using it like everyone else.

> Would you prefer a bunch of brightly coloured rotting tat?

this is the attitude isn't it... yes give me a big tangled heap of green sh*te over a single, sustainable, chain anyday. no metal, noooooo metal! first a chain, next a bolt. how dare they

1
 Simon Caldwell 06 Jul 2020
In reply to r.greaves:

If you use it then please be careful when throwing your ropes down, it's directly above A route. I didn't react favourably to having someone throw an ab rope on my head when I was leading that route.

 J Whittaker 06 Jul 2020
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> If you use it then please be careful when throwing your ropes down, it's directly above A route. I didn't react favourably to having someone throw an ab rope on my head when I was leading that route.

Isn't that just good climbing etiquette anyway?

 Simon Caldwell 06 Jul 2020
In reply to J Whittaker:

Indeed. But it's a shame this ab is located directly above a classic route.


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