UKH

During the dry spell last year one of my mates was keen to do Great Crack at Dukes Quarry.

I know I've done it, on checking my notebook I have a date and partner but I can't remember the first thing about it.

The fact that I haven't climbed for years hasn't dulled my memory about routes in general, far from it; but odd ones now and again have failed to leave an impression at all and the one I have quoted is an example of a *** route  in the category.

(I actually started thinking about this trying to visualise Whit's End , Gimmer, even though I know it's not a three star route. Another fail, nevertheless.)

Anyone else with a ***gap in their reminiscenses?

Sub-Cneifion Rib for me is a classic stand-out as a monstrously overrated route. Yeah, the rock's very good, but what else about it? This little lozenge of high-quality rock resting at an easy angle on a heathery hillside (with the heather never far away on either side if you ever want to scuttle off and have a picnic) I did this with my brother in our very first week of serious rock-climbing in N. Wales, before we'd done a single VS. We climbed all the mega-classics below VS in Ogwen/Tryfan ... but I remember that this just made us laugh as we were climbing it, because it was just so pathetic, scruffy and utterly undemanding. I remember we had to re-read the guidebook a few times to make sure we were really following this 'wonderful' thing, and we were ...

[I'm very tempted to talk about over-rated routes at Avon Gorge, but I won't, because I'd be up half the night.]

My memory is awful! I forget which routes I've done by the time I get home to fill my logbook in. I'm constantly looking through guidebooks, getting excited about trying a route, climbing it, only to find I've already done it. I'm always looking at my ukc logbook when I'm at the crag too. 

Just had a look at my logbook and seen that I've climbed Killerkranky in the Pass and Perfect Day at Gardoms. These are three star routes, they're at the limit of my ability so should be very memorable but I'm buggered if I can remember being on either of them.

Amphitheatre buttress , massive walk in , yes the position is good but 3 star ? Nah. 

I think that people rate these climbs simply because of the effort it takes to get there.  

Acrimonious Acrobat at Ardmair gets 4 stars in the SMC system. My only memory of it is one of vague disappointment.

Interesting observation. It's more of a Mountaineering Route than Rock Climb. Long sections of grassy ledges interspersed with average rock climbing, apart from the crux pitch which is superb for the grade with the exciting step round into the juggy but magnificently exposed wall. The "hand traverse" and pinnacles look good but are disappointing climbing, more like scrambling. The final pitches meander all over the place with no defined route with only a handful of interesting moves. I'd still give it *** for it's situations rather than it's rock climbing appeal.

Yes, it's a long walk in but this is so much less strenuous than it used to be before the construction of the metalled road to the Gronfa Reservoir when it used to be a monster bog trot crossing numerous drainage ditches on the hillside taking at least an hour longer than it does today.

A lot of it depends on which Star system is used:

The traditional one where only the very best routes get 3 stars and the majority of routes go unstarred and often forgotten.

The modern system, pioneered by the FRCC where ALL good routes get 3 stars and 2 and 1 star routes encourage people to get off the beaten track.

Or the SMC system where you just chuck a lot of stars around willy-nilly. 

All are probably equally valid. 

I have heard a few tales to suggest that is quite literally what happens sometimes.

I'll give you sub CR, and raise you pencoed pillar. 

An interesting and original thread topic. Three star routes climbed but no long term memory of them retained. It's a shame so many folk misread it and just slagged some routes off that they don't like.

Pretty much every classic sports route I've ever climbed falls into that category but if it's happened with trad or winter routes  I think I must have forgotten it.

Grooved Arete, Tryfan. Rambling and forgettable.

Demo Route, Sennen. Only really memorable since it graces various guidebook covers, inexplicably.

Edit. Actually, Offwidth's got a point above. Demo Route in fairness isn't forgettable. What I remember about it is that it's not very good, which is re-confirmed to me every time I do it. It does look ok from a distance though, which explains the guidebook thing.

Funny - last route I did in Dukes Quarry had no stars and the (awful) memory of it is definitely branded on my memory (along side a great flashing motif "NEVER AGAIN")...

I’m surprised you don’t recall Great Crack, both the climbing and the overall ambience of the quarry are pretty memorable!

I’ve definitely forgotten some grit classics, after a couple of decades one 30ft Stanage VS tends to merge into another, unless you have an epic.

Nevertheless, I was quite shocked when I did High Neb Buttress last year and later discovered that I’d previously done it not once but twice !

Gillercombe Buttress, nice situation but utterly unmemorable as a climb despite the 3 stars and Classic Rock status.

I think I've climbed it about 10 times: It's brilliant, aside from the first 2m: once past the initial grot it's as good as any VS on grit... take a tarp for the wet platform at the bottom and a towel to dry the first jams and much of those problems are mitigated . Conditions are often weird: its been damp in a drought and dry in light rain.

Cant say this has ever happened. From the mighty bullrushed  buttress of Penceod Pillar, staring down through the rain on Cwm Cowarch from a mucky Willo the Wisp or the effort required to get to the non-entity that is Crystal Ridge, all are imprinted firmly in the memory.

Have never sport climbed though. That does sound a bit forgettable.

The SMC system simply combines the advantages of the other two systems: 4 stars for the very best routes as in your "traditional" system, with fewer stars as in your "modern" system".

Go for a run naked, is there any coordination in which your tackle swings? Or is it just randomly here and there. 

Simon Caldwell put me off thinking about Will o the Wisp. He made it sound like vegetated exposed rambling. 

I like the idea of this thread and always find those complaining about genuine big VD classics a bit tiresome.. it's nearly always from those not leading at their limit on those grades. The 3 stars seem much more apt when the crux sections and exposure are genuinely exciting. Steve Ashton was my hero in this sense, as he could make mods and scrambles sound death defying adventures (which they are for some). If on guidebook work (and sometimes for the hell of it) I try and solo such routes or lead in approach shoes,  to better get the feel a lower grade leader might get, when otherwise the route would be a bit too comfy for me. Some routes are such sandbags I ended up working hard to avoid adrenaline anyhow (like the top pitch on Lands End Long Climb) or trying bloody hard to not die despite the adrenaline, as when I nearly fell onsight soloing Straight Ahead (was Diff.. now VS) or when I missed the traverse and ended up on an increasingly worrying rising diagonal line scratching up compact overlapped slab, NOT on No match for climb id:7897. I won't forget them easily.

Agreed. Did it in winter conditions and very underimpressed!

Actually, I have no memory whatever of Riders on the Storm (HVS 5a).  It was during a period when I was busy with other stuff and hadn't been to Pembroke for ages, but still.  I remember the weekend, and climbing something with an old friend, but as for the route itself... nothing.  

Admittedly I seconded it, but the description implies this should make it even more memorable!  

Perversely I much enjoyed Will o the Wisp - It was a dry day but I got completely soaked through on the first pitch and had to take my boots off to empty them at the belay. I recall the next pitch or two being a very insecure high level walk followed by 10m of dry climbing.

Totally agree with other's comments about Sub Cneifion Rib : a slither of rock on a hillside near far superior stuff (the Ron James selected climbs, which must have been one of the earliest guides to use the star system in the 70s just gave it one star). IMHO Amphitheatre Buttress also seems overated and is mainly a good scramble; I suppose Craig yr Ysfa is a good mountain crag with only this one attractive easy route (Great Gully being esoteric by modern standards). Thought Demo Route quite good with quite varied climbing on a short cliff. I did Grooved Arete many times early on and thought it a bit broken, but took a couple of people fairly new to climbing up it and Outside Edge about five years ago and had forgotten how good it actually was (they agreed). Of course the starring of these routes may be more appropriate for those only climbing at lower grades, and the actual moves are very simple for those who've learnt on indoor walls.

GB seems to get a poor deal.

 View it from any direction and it takes the straightest, cleanest and most impressive way up a large, well-formed mountain crag. Like most mountain routes, you climb short interesting sections and scramble up easy ground in between.

I did it in an hour from Honister on a hot, T shirted autumn afternoon and remember only the sun baked drumlins on the coire floor and a blurr of perfect, rough, bubbly rock. What's not to like?

Only from philistines, like SCR I really enjoyed it on a few occasions.  Climbing with newish outdoor climbers is a good reminder of what such routes feel like for them. Unlike Oldie I found strong indoor climbers often struggling with some of the techniques (especially jams, chimneys, offwidths and balance work) and the size and exposure.

Hmm, your leader obviously did a better job of protecting Riders than I did of my son, who was about 13 at the time and found it *highly* memorable! I thought it was pretty good in fact.

My own nomination for vastly overrated classic is 'Will O' The Wisp', which even makes it into Classic Rock. After an horrific walk-in, it's basically a path zigzagging up an uninteresting hillside. 

I'm in agreement about people slagging off V Diff classics - if they normally climb E grades they're unlikely to be impressed with something they could climb withone hand in their pocket. This fault can extend to guidebook writers - I recall using the Pembroke guide from the 90s, the one with two books in a plastic cover, one red one blue. Almost every upper E grade route semed to have stars all over it while almost every VS or below seemed to be unstarred when many of them were very good routes. As for the unmemorable 3*, I'd go for Blue Sky at Saddle Head.

Sorry for the dislike - I normally refrain - but Blue Sky is certainly IMO a three star route, both the climbing and the situation, especially if you catch it in the rare tidal and sea conditions when you can start from the bottom (as I've managed on only one occasion out of three).

Martin

I think you're right about stars and extremes.  Guide book teams seem to struggle to understand the challenge and pleasure offered by 'easy' climbs, probably because they tend to be very experienced and (in all probability) extreme leaders themselves.

Back on topic, I thought Blue Sky was worth at least 2 stars. Hanging belay, good position, nice climbing.  I'd have been pretty chuffed with that when I was a beginner.

But Demo Route, yeah, I also found it disappointing. Just one tricky move.

The one route I found really disappointing was Ulyses Factor on Lundy.  Shit gear with lots of ground fall potential on the first pitch and a difficult escape to get help, if needed.  Me and Phil retreated.  I think it was supposed to be 3 stars.

I looked at Pencoed Pillar once when I was on a photographic assignment and thought it looked thoroughly unappealing.

I would say Pencoed Pillar is at least a one star route, but certainly not a three star route.

A three star route should be universally appealing.  Anyone capable of climbing it should be able to agree that it is brilliant.

The Pencoed Pillar OTOH is a classic of its genre.  That genre being easy but poorly protected, vegetated adventure climbing.  No particularly hard moves but lots of penalty points for messing up.  You have to be the right person, and in the right mood to enjoy it but if you are then it is a blast.

I had great fun on the route but I couldn't recommend it to most of my mates in good conscience.

My first proper rock climb aged 16. Do I remember belaying on the Haven as the mist closed in, watching in trepidation as my leader edged across a damp Knight's Move Slab in hiking boots, his 90ft No3 hawser rope swaying in the void? Yes, I think I do.

Just had a mental revelation. Pencoed pillar might make a better winter route. At least you can climb the turf rather than try to avoid it. It's aspect etc.. might mean it's not in condition so often. 

Hell's Groove on Scafell is a good example of a shit 3 star route, but to answer the precise question, I also don't remember much of Riders on the Storm having seconded it. 

I'll add my voice to the chorus saying Will o' the wisp isn't worth its stars; a lot of grassy meandering to get into one nice position.  If it weren't in Classic Rock it wouldn't get a fraction of the traffic it sees which probably isn't that great anyway.  Similarly, Gillercombe Buttress; for all that it might look terrific from a distance, when you're on it it isn't that terrific at all.

T.

Definitely. It involves a bottle of fine scotch and the removal of your underwear, if I understand correctly.

I'd imagine that going for a run naked in the current cold weather would lead to another meaning for 'willy -nilly'.

I find most sports routes forgettable although they can be interesting and challenging at the time.  An exception to this however, IMO, is Kalymnos where some of the climbs I've done there are as good if not better than many UK 3 star routes. Indeed i would go so far as to say that they are some of the most memorable routes I've ever climbed in over 50 years.

Al

I quite like it, probably because I think it's much better than it looks from below, and could give it a star (unstarred in the Paul Williams guide). However I would dock one of Tennis Shoe's 3 stars.

A friend of mine makes a very similar argument about climbing on Lliwedd.

The difference with routes on Llwedd is that at least feel more like mountaineering.

Al

Nearly all the 3 star grid bolted slabby limestone sport climbs that I've done in the South of France reckon. I'd give you examples but I have quite literally forgotten them! Setesdal in Norway is the same. Loaded with 3 star routes but lots of them are very similar to one another.

I'd also say Zero Gully. For me it was basically done after 1.5 pitches, followed by a lot of moving together.

I thought Eagle Front was a bit overlated as well. One decent pitch near the top, which was pretty steady for the grade.  

I very much enjoyed Eagle Front; if the one-move third pitch and leftwards ramble through the vegetation fourth pitch involved more rock it would be unarguable at three stars.  I did it on a hot, dry day though and I can imagine it being a different kettle of fish if damp.

T.

Lots of the comments here are aimed at easy routes. Could it be the case that easy routes are almost always - by virtue of being easy - mostly going to feel rambling, broken & forgettable to people climbing well above the grade? 

The obvious counter-example - Sgurr Dubh slabs. Easy but amazing.

I reported my disappointment to a former activist of some repute who replied that, yes, his first time up felt the same but, knowing that, subsequent ascents could be enjoyed in a different way. 

I don't think they should be regarded as easy... its a relative term:  E2 might feel easy to some climbers and tough VDiffs can be a real challenge to some experienced climbers.

Another route I did recently that I had slightly disappointing memories of for 3 stars was Amplitheatre Buttess. I first did it with fellow VS leaders and again with another VS leader. I went back recently with someone wanted to get some leading mileage in at VDiff, being at loose end, as my partner was stuck in a BMC meet,  I'd happily volunterred to hold the ropes. Watching the lead and following up, it became apparent just  how good the first few pitches really were; that to be frank were a pleasant blur from past ascents as we were moving fast. The crux wall felt the same. The scramble section was not as bad as I remembered more a grassy stroll with the odd scrambly bit than vegetated climbing. The pinnacles, followed strictly over the top,  were both fabulous and tricky for the VDiff grade (mainly as they are quite bold... if you slipped in a few places  you would hit ledges below). The finish pitch  had suffered a rock fall and again this was now an interesting climbing excercise (some 3c moves)  when avoiding  the loose section (I'd simply no memory of it from before).

I've never climbed anything bad on Lliwedd. In particular: Slanting Buttress is probably my favourite Diff; Avalanche Longlands Red Wall was a monster experience similar to big US 5.5 stuff; Horned Crag delightfully brain teasing in the route finding.

I didn't say I agreed with him.  Personally I love the place, damp and forbidding as it often is!

Surely not shit! The second pitch is a beauty!

I'm surprised at you, I'd have thought you'd take it as a spur to prove me wrong!
I've done it against since then, and stick with my initial assessment. I enjoyed it more second time, but that's probably because first time I expected a classic, which it isn't. Second time I expected it to be worse than it actually was.

I wouldn't include it in this thread though, as even the first time I could still remember the 'crux' move several years later. Many of the others nominated here I also remember well - Sub Cneifion Rib, Gillercombe Buttress in particular I loved and can still visualise.

Demo Route I found disappointing but still remember it well. Ampitheatre Buttress would have been a good shout as until I repeated it a couple of years ago I couldn't remember anything about it, but as well as reversing my previous low opinion of it I now remember it as well.

Without checking my log book, I'd probably go for Pencoed Pillar. My only memory of it is that I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I can;'t recall a thing about the climbing!

'Ulyses Factor on Lundy' - so someone else has done it after all! There was a photo of it in Rocksport which really made me aspire to it, once I got on it I wished I hadn't.

I

I generally seem to enjoy the same stuff you do. I'll likely do it one day as a Classic Rock tick but am in no hurry. Too much many other starred  routes, let alone good obscure stuff, left to climb.

Good, I'm glad it's not just me.  I was beginning to wonder whether I might have suffered some sort of head injury during the ascent.

How about the opposite problem?  Sometimes when we're at a crag where I've done a lot of routes, but not recently, I claim I've done a route before... and then start to wonder whether I really have, or whether it was just on my bucket list at some time and I eventually convinced myself I'd done it.  

You're right about some indoor wall climbers finding chimneys and cracks harder, but obviously unlike GA and Outside Edge.
Recently I climbed in Idwal with someone who'd previously climbed mainly indoors but also comfortably HVS outside. After ticking off many of the starred classics, and under the mistaken impression he liked the occasional squeeze chimney, I persuaded him to finish the day leading Monolith Crack (probably the only one star route of the day). He said it was the most strenuous climb he'd ever done. I was lucky he didn't end up on a murder rap.
Conversely I climbed at Subluminal with someone who'd never climbed outdoors, but I could see he was bored with the easy routes that I felt up to leading. So to add interest we did a a couple of the easiest routes in the Ruckle...he still seconded them with ease and still wasn't greatly impressed! Fortunately he was able to team up with a better leader the next day.

 Also noting how Simon Caldwell and yourself reversed your poor opinions about Amphitheatre Buttress then I might do the same were I to repeat it (I mis?remember it as an overgraded Diff best suited to soloing). 

So many!

Not just sport routes, but a lot of shortish trad routes, particularly where I did a bunch in a day. I usually can recall stuff that was close to my limit, but from a couple of grades below that and downwards, sometimes not much.

With regard to 'easy' routes, poor and unmemorable are definitely not the same thing. I recall Eliminate A at Ilkley quite well because of how remarkably bad it was!

I was definitely worried on the first pitch of UF but then I was worried on most of the descent to it as well!

Great thread. Thanks

My feelings are possibly at odds with many on here - and possibly off-topic. Getting into the mountains, onto the rock has always been - without exception -  a *** experience for me. Sure, there've been minor irritants which got in the way of full enjoyment of a route, walk-in or whole mountain day. But when I look back at my routes over many years I can't think of any that I'd say aren't worth  the ***. In fact, I don't really get drawn to the ***, more to the peculiar unheralded jewel - and feel as pleased as punch when I find a route that gives me the buzz of knowing that its relatively unknown. I've done several of the routes mentioned in the thread. I wouldn't express disappointment with any of them. Ultimately, I'm just chuffed to be on the rock - whether the route has all the accolades or whether its a load of choss. That feeling, I'd add, hastens with age...!

Cheers

'D' on Gimmer.

All I recall is that it went pretty much straight up (rather than wandering) and there was a thin move at some stage which felt hard for Severe. 

Forgettable (and largely forgotten)

Hence the dramatic description in the much-loved 100 classic climbs of North Wales?

To be fair, in nice conditions I crossed the Knight’s Slab without realising I had...

Left unconquerable I can remember the moves very well, the right very little after the first flake 

I kind of know what you mean, I find he moves on C & D both quite unmemorable but the position and continuity are pretty rare at the grade, certainly in England.

I wouldn't disagree. Most of the routes on the west face of Gimmer, though clean, continuous and exposed, are a bit characterless and non-descript. Same goes for the Weeping Wall of Aonach Dubh (e.g. The Long Crack) and even Rannoch wall on the Buachaille (January Jigsaw, Grooved Arete). All good climbs on good rock in splendid settings, but somehow forgettable. Strange.

So while Gimmer wanders, and Glencoe ledge-shuffles do not provide any memorable moves, they are memorable for being clean, continuous, exposed, intricate and spectacular three star routes.

Kipling Groove ? 

I've been to the haven more times than I can remember and only ever in good conditions (I won't climb routes in the wet as it helps trash them) . There was nearly always a good natured in-situ queue for The Knights Move slab, so I mostly watched a bit and chatted, then normally  climbed other routes just left (I think I've done GA twice as a single push after early starts and a couple of other times with a pause at the haven to do other routes while the queue dropped). The solution is not obvious from the haven and excitement increases with exposure as you move up and right.  Many unbelievers have prefered to tackle Kirkus Direct in extremis instead and others have baulked and escaped. It's almost a stadium for the multipitch  VDiff leader and as such I think its one of the most iconic pitches on a multipitch VDiff that is VDiff (a lot of other famous stopper sections on such VDiffs are sandbags).

I remember many interesting moves on Gimmer and in Glencoe and the routes are superbly situated as well. Some of these critics must be climbing like robots if they find them characterless and non-descript, so I wonder why they bother climbing such routes at all. I think the famous lower grade routes on Gimmer and in Glencoe are as good as such routes get.

I bit harsh, but I agree it's not a three-star route. The only bit worth 3 stars is the final two pitches above the Knight's Move, the rest rather scruffy.

Are you talking about ABCDE? On that part of the crag, there just aren't any lines, I've only done C because I could see where it went. But just to the left, the west face of Gimmer is one of the most amazing crags in the country! Whit's End Direct, Springbank (a bit less so), Kipling and Equus are all phenomenal, memorable routes. Particularly WED and Kipling, which follow brilliant devious lines through intimidating terrain with heaps and heaps of exposure. They're the very essence of brilliant UK mountain routes.

I can see the flaws in Demo Route; you can avoid the chimney by following the jugs on Intermediate route to the right, similarly you can escape straight up from the stance using Intermediate route. I may be wrong, but can you also miss out the famous under cling move by traversing the ledge beneath and climbing up to the end of the traverse?

But it is on the most rugged rock in some of Britains most impressive coastal scenery, steep and has a tiny stance to view the traverse from. 

New to climbing, granite and Cornwall, I needed to pull on a runner to escape the chimney, took several heart stopping attempts to get along the under cling traverse and, although the top groove was easy, arrived at the top with the crag vibrating to the Cornish sea, with the (now broken) blowhole rocketing into the sky and was very impressed!

Inverted V

Huge, clean corner with an awkward layback leads to a niche beneath a dark, forbidding roof that appears to block all escape. Exposed traverse leftward on jugs to finish up a crack in the sky. On Stanage. Three stars!

We won a bid for a chalk drawing for the RHRHButtress as part of Mend our Mountains.  As such last autum we went back and did the three big front crack lines in celebration. I'd forgotten how good Inverted V still is for a low end VS leader. Straight Crack was the least interesting (and the crux was short and safe: HS not VS). RHRHBD is amazing.

Yes, exactly - ABCDE on Gimmer. I totally agree that Kipling Groove is an entirely different matter; it benefits enormously from following a definite and striking line, which gives it character.

F route, nothing vague there.

D is a very good route

abc- sort of agree, but magnificent position and incredible rock

You and I are both on the same wavelength here. Here are a couple of links which might lead to things you haven't seen before.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=637

It's interesting to see that a number of routes on this ticklist have as much as doubled their number of UKC logbook entries since I compiled the list.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/destinations/gimmer_crag_-_less_travell...

I wouldn't deny that they are fine routes. But whether or not a climb is particularly memorable is very subjective. I'd say the settings of the Glencoe climbs I mentioned (and Gimmer) are highly memorable, yet I found the climbs themselves disappointingly samey despite all those good qualities. Maybe my expectations were too high. On the other hand I found Ardverikie Wall, Cioch Direct/Arrow Route/Integrity on Skye and South Ridge Direct on Arran, very memorable climbs of great character. There's not necessarily an objective basis for these feelings, though I suspect there is a bit of one.

I think the conditions and my head-space at the time have a massive impact on how much I enjoy and therefore remember a route. I did Hope at Idwall and Ash Tree Slab on Gimmer both in very wet conditions and I didn't think either was much cop. 

There's definitely a few places where the climbs probably get a star more than they deserve. I didn't think Right Route or Black & Tans at The Roaches were worth *** really. 

As for Avon, I think the recent guidebook and consolidation of the crags into 3 on UKC has taken care of most of the over-starring? I reckon most of the ***s are now pretty justified (though I have no idea why Sleepwalk gets 2 stars. Literally one of the worst climbs I've done). 

As Offwidth seems to understand, if you can remember anything at all about the route or the circumstances of your ascent then it doesn't fit the bill.

The thing I remember about Amphitheatre Buttress was the enormous turd someone had left on one of the belay ledges.  Does that count?

Depends on the enormity, a subjective assessment in itself. Other factors also come into play: consistency, position, exposure. Some are palpably memorable, others not. This one obviously left a deep impression, so I think it qualifies.

It appeared almost animate, and seemed to have a desire to slowly creep in the direction of the rope.

West Buttress Eliminate Cloggy.

Again that's a dumb attitude unless you want to limit 3 stars to a tiny number of the very best routes in the UK. 3 stars for trad should include a mixture of climbing quality of: the moves, line, positions, feel on onsight lead for a climber of that grade, the rock and route history, such that climb of it's type has some UK significance. We leave this for the subjective view of the editors and crag authors, hoping they can be fair and responsible. I think they do their best but for the lower grade climbers who buy most guidebooks there is often a tyranny of the minority as most guidebook workers climb a lot harder. Some authors can't help themselves get carried away... working with a guidebook team we have removed all 3 stars of some extreme routes climbed and starred by the previous crag author. I also enjoyed the use of hollow stars when working in the YMC team... some really great routes do easily get dirty and overgrown. 

Most of the lower grade routes you and others are moaning about (many of whom may well be too good a leader to judge fairly and are often going against well established labels),  in my view - very much in combination of the above list - have that type of quality. Some areas lend themselves to particular grades but it's simply not sensible or likely that hardly any of many Mods or Diffs in UK Mountain area guidebooks get 2 or 3 stars whereas large proportions of particular Extremes grades do.

Or maybe there is a slight correlation between difficulty and quality? I think as long as folk can name some top quality easier routes, they are welcome to mention other routes at the same grade which to them aren't as good. 

I understand your case, I really do, but I think you're just slightly misunderstanding me. I'm not disputing the quality of the routes in question; I'm simply trying to distinguish which three-star routes (of a similar grade) are memorable (to me), and which are less so. In other words, the memorability of a climb may be to some extent independent of it's quality, at least at a subjective level. So, in theory, route A may be a better quality climb than route B, yet, for whatever reason, B is more memorable than A for a particular climber.

Cenotaph Corner. Juggy ambling to a slightly awkward pull. Great line, average climbing. Cemetery Gates is much more memorable.

Andy F

Memorable - rained hard and rucksack washed away,  fell off, overtaken by nightfall having forgotten head torch, high winds, epic retreats, forgotten gear after long walk in, climbing with your kids, watching buzzard chasing fawn below gimmer, partners, people abseil on you, great fear, lost, etc etc - I think it's often more to do with surrounding detail than the route for me.

Indeed, though one would hope to make allowance for such extraneous circumstances. Bear in mind that the subject of the thread as broached by the OP is the possible failure of an indisputably good climb to be memorable. This seems to have become confused with quality per se.

I could have written that Steve! It was also my first multipitch in Wales, in big boots, aged 16 and and I remember it very well. 

I don't think we quite work like that.

The creation of memory doesn't 'makes allowance for such extraneous circumstances '

When climbing becomes second nature it's the ' extraneous' that stands out

Yes but the subject is the memorability of a route, not of a day out. If it's an epic retreat or a buzzard that you remember, then it's not the climb as such that's memorable, but the circumstances around it.

it's not bloody forgettable though is it, and we manage to pull a block off to add to the fun.

Not rushing to repeat that one but big scary adventure

The Quarryman at Yesnaby gets four stars for some unknown reason. Nice line and good moves, I remember some of it, but I wouldn't have argued with **.

I think this may go back to the debate about whether <20m routes can really be four stars. There's just not enough of it. I thought *** was probably fair.

I (genuinely) can't remember the forgettable *** routes I have done.

Jesus!! If Simon thinks it’s vegatated it must be a f*cking field!!!! #Chossmeister

I'd have to agree with that, on the basis that I led it last year, thought it excellent, wondered how I'd not led it before, and found when I logged it that I'd actually led it 11 years ago.

I actually think there are different differences for different rocks in different settings but I've seconded up to E7, know some of the best climbers in the UK and taught myself to stay focussed on the quality of everything down to scrambles. The difference in numbers of stars according to my list of characteristics that make a starred route still seem  hugely exaggerated in the extremes and overly harsh below VS. To add insult to this injury the talk on UKC nearly always focusses on the lower grade stuff where there are not enough routes fairly getting multiple stars.  For what its worth I've climbed a lot of trad  in the US (well over a thousand pitches from 5.0 to Joshua Tree 5.11a slab)  and the understarring of lower grade routes and overstarring of 5.10 upwards seems to me even worse over there. We are human and its a lot harder to judge difficulty and quality well below our limits. The most over starred trad routes to me would be lineless extreme face routes with normally samey good climbing on good holds exchangeable and or interchangable with neighbours on either side. As a sport route the odd few might be multiple starred but highly unlikely as a trad route apart from the odd one where there was something unusual in a combination of factors, including some very notable history.

Then we have the highball boulder problem versus 20 pitch trad routes. That some people think that there are massive differencies in quality ranges of one set over the other is just insulting someone else's climbing game. There are classics in both based on very different weightings in the lists of characteristics. The classic boulder problems ARE much more susceptible to being wrecked by too much love (many popular classics are being loved to death, hence why I supported removing stars from the BMC guides)

I think I know what you think you are saying and if I'm right I might agree with that to an extent, on some routes, but plenty of those Gimmer and Glencoe routes do have memorable cruxes, sometimes several. There is nothing special in those areas I've noticed that makes classics there more forgettable.

Only a sport route in a sh*hole but Coral Seas at Harpur Hill was so underwhelming I still remember it  - does that count?

Contrived start and finish and a disintegrating crux. 

Harpur Hill is so underwhelming I've forgotten where it is.

Reminds me of the caption in the Larson cartoon of the explorer with a flag at the bottom of a large triangular pit with 'because it's not there'. Mind you Harper Hill is paradise compared to  the Ruffs.

Hope Al's not listening in.........         

Prompted to reply by the Dow v Langdale thread.

Most of Gimmer except for KG is overrated IMHO. The Crack is not as good as Stoats Crack on Pavey. Asterisk: no memory of it whatsoever. The alphabet climbs: nice positions but directionless and lack independence. Bracket and Slab: the bracket bit was good but can't recall the rest of the route. F Route: nice finishing crack but that's about it. Whits End Direct: alright but not 3 star. Etc.

Amazing crag. Almost as good as Dow.

I remember North West Arete (VS 4b) as being very good. We did it as the intro to Kipling Groove (HVS 5a) (it leads more or less directly to it). Altogether it felt like one continous 4-star route.

The second half is OK, but the initial wall was a bit damp and slightly rattly when I did it recently.  

When I did KG eons ago we did Intern to get to it.  This has the advantage of making KG seem rather straightforward!

That's exactly why we didn't do Intern. It looked too hard. As it is, N W Arete is a bit harder than the first pitch of Kipling, but it still meant that the technical crux of the whole 3-pitch route was the crux of Kipling. I don't remember the first wall of NWA being damp at all, but I do remember that the very sharp arete was very slightly suspect/rattly, and also not v well protected, which just added to the spice.

NWA was fine once on the arete but the initial wall was greasy and quite bold, I thought, given how quickly the gully drops away. 

As it happens, we then got bit lost on one or more of Routes A-C, so I have to agree with those who weren't terribly impressed with them. 

Yes, I did both B (i think - the one with Amen Corner - the only memorable thing on it) and C, which was very rambling and nondescript. F was good though.

Any 3 star route at Auchinstarry Quarry qualifies IMHO.

Also, I wasn't so hot on "One Step in the Clouds" at Tremadog. Perhaps this could have something to do with doing Spectre, Brant Direct, Phantom Rib and First Pinnacle Rib (the VD one with the 4b "Yellow Slab" on it) on the same trip.

I'm smiling when you say 'the VD one with the 4b "Yellow Slab" - we must be so careful to protect the hallowed 'V diff' grade, mustn't we?

To be fair you can bypass the crux and its 4a not  4b.

Are you talking about Yellow Slab? Really? I remember I was in big boots and looked at it, and thought, they've got to be joking, it can't go up there because it looks about Hard Severe and where's the protection? I wasn't that bothered, because I was climbing well, but when I got on it I found that it was indeed about Hard Severe and didn't have any protection. It was one of those things that you looked at and thought, forget the grade, treat it as a VS, and it was just fine. I'm not sure about this 'bypassing' bit; you just teetered up the middle of a narrow, unprotected slab on the front of your big boots. At about the same standard as Belle Vue Bastion, maybe a mite easier, but i wouldn't argue strongly about it.

Sorry, I'm in a contentious mood. But ... don't technical grades like 4a and 4b imply sticky boots ... or what on earth do they mean?? On a Tryfan v diff, surely people are still wearing big (hill-walking) boots? 

Only die-hard traditionalists.  I have to say I've never done Grooved Arete in big boots - I probably could but I don't wear them for hiking either, usually!

So, what do you wear? Some kind of trainers? I've always hated that, because so often you end up with wet feet.

I sort of can't quite imagine doing Grooved Arete in sticky boots. Are you carrying your big boots in your sack? Or do you leave them at the bottom, which means you couldn't contemplate finishing the day by e.g going up the Bristly Ridge and coming down that lovely ridge opposite the east face, as we often did?

It's a couple of years since I did them, but I can't remember anything about Bow Shaped Slab and Bow Shaped Corner at Flimston that I couldn't get from the guidebook picture. If I try, I keep thinking that I can remember something and then realising that it's actually part of some other slabby sea cliff.

Most would wear rock shoes with light running shoes or approach shoes, clipped to their harness or in their sack.

Shame though climbing in big boots is great fun. 

PS to North West Arete. It was given 'Mild V S' when I did it, I remember disagreeing with that, and thinking 'where does the "Mild" come in?'

The last thing I would want to do is paint myself as some kind of 'old-fashioned hero', but when I started everyone climbed below VS in big boots. Most of them much better than myself. The best climber I've ever seen/climbed with in big boots was David Jones (DBAJ), he was truly awesomely neat. I did a huge Langdale round with him once, taking in about four or five classics on the big crags. He was virtually soloing.

PS. I'm nattering. I wonder why? ... v unlike me to be on the internet for any length of time in the afternoon. I wonder if anyone can guess? I'll only leave it for a few minutes, then I'll give the answer. (It's so bleedingly obvious ...) Many others here must to be doing the same thing, or procrastinating like me, right now ...

You're waiting on the belay ledge while your partner struggles up Yellow Slab in a pair of Mantas?

NO. If only it were that interesting. [Hint: it's a little bit connected with work.] Has to be about the easiest 'quiz' question there's ever been on UKC. [The clock keeps ticking. Doesn't anyone here work for a living? And, if so, surely quite a lot of you are freelance? ...]

Unless it was wet I'd do it all in my Five Tennies* probably.  Or with a tiny rucksack so I could carry them if it was longer enchainment including harder bits.  

* Yes, some kind of trainers!

I only remembered this one with horror when I was half way up the crux pitch and finding it a bit pushy when I got that strange feeling of deja vu that I didn’t really like it last time (approx 20 years earlier). By that stage I was somewhat committed! When the ropes failed to pull on the abseil I took the wrong route back to the top and spent 40 mins crawling through chest high brambles on a 70 degree slope it really reinforced the wish that my memory was better. My theory is like hideous childhood memories traumatic climbs are wiped from our memory banks, hmm I wonder what other routes I have done....

In reply to Tom Valentine:Falcon (E1 5b)

An hour later, I'm gaping with disbelief that no-one's answered my gentle little question. (I mean, what do most people who natter on here do for a living? How do they balance their books? ...) Are there really so few people here who are their own masters and have to answer for themselves?

Is it something that is taxing you?

Oh, good, at least someone's awake/living in the real world (while others are speculating impossible, unanswered conundrums like 'Does God exist?' I know only too well that a certain 'non-ministerial department of the UK government' most certainly does.)

YES. I'VE BEEN SITTING ON MY B ARSE, PROCRASTINATING. I'll try and get it finished/submitted tomorrow.

My commiserations, I don't want to rub it in, but I'm agonising over whether to go for a look at the Wilderness Gullies or not tomorrow.

Actually, given that the forecast aint that good (and it'll be quite warm), plus I'm a bit lame at moment with a thigh problem, I'll be reasonably happy to opt for my tax return.

Not all of us wait until last minute, although I did wait until January.

I can't believe I've had the nerve to type that because I am such a good "do it later" procrastinator

I've always found that went I come to do my return, I'm always owed money. That's how I find the motivation to get it done rather than procrastinate. Probably not the best strategy though - they who will not be named don't pay interest. 

Just to say, I had absolutely no idea what you were talking about!

OSITC has  been up-rated? Used to be 2 stars which was just right - very good but not great

Spare a thought for those of us who write accountancy software and so get to worry about VAT returns all year round... in 6 different countries.

I'm not sure! I don't actually have the Tremadog guidebook - my mate and I bought different books (I kept the Pass book and she kept the Tremadog one).

UKC gives it 3 stars. Frankly I wouldn't give it 2! (IMHO deserves one star). 

I agree it is a funny overall grade! However, the moves are very short and the rest of the route is really only about Diff. I just about agree with VD!

Well done for doing it in big boots! I did have my stickies on - I probably would have avoided it if I had big boots - it was well-polished when I did it.

Hi Mark, I'd agree that One Step in the Clouds is a good, one star route.

First did Yellow Slab as a beginner in the pouring rain. We had our first ever pair of rock boots to change into and still barely got up it.

We went back one snowy February when the rock was bone dry, and after changing into rock boots again, didn't think it was really any harder than the rest of the route. Something to do with expectations I think.

Jesus! That must have been hard!

It's 4b.

I totally agree. Couldn't have a safer route and most of it is VS. The Gates is is so good I repeated it shortly afterwards. Wish I had run it out in one pitch, but then again the belay (girdle) ledge is a great viewpoint to watch everyone struggling on the other classic routes! again well protected. CC gets it 3*s because of history, and CC for the wild positions when climbing.

It's quite funny really because, seriously, how many of us can accurately judge the difference between 4a and 4b (still less, between 3b and 4a)? And, lower down the scale, between Diff and V Diff? The grades really don't make much sense at all below 4b, and the 'overall difficulty' grades are simply playing with adjectives.

I always think of 4b as being the distinct step from the lower grades to mid grades. Perhaps that's what you mean?

Yes. All one can do below that is mess about with amusing adjectives ... which works just fine. 

In the true spirit of fhe post I must declare Midterm in Yosemite my forgotten star route - Alan Stewart posted a photo last year, I agreed it was of me (from the backside) but some other route because I had never done Midterm. Then I checked Supertopo photos to find an almost identical one. It seems I had not only forgotten the route but the awkward offwidth move and the snake in the top crack...

You seem to be implying that people who operate at the higher end of the grade scale have a superior sense of acuity, which I don't accept for a moment.

Absolutely not what I'm saying. I was an extremely average climber (VS/HVS most of my 40 years, but had several periods when I led E1 to E2 confidently and seconded up to E4, between 1967 and 2007 - I think this was probably very close to the norm for that time span, or probably rather below the norm), but most V Diffs or below involve heaving around on big holds, which can be quite tough/strenuous, or climbing rather easy slabs. How do you grade it? We can't be talking about 'acuity' on the part of the climber, but about the rock itself. How do you measure how hard big holds are to use? Mostly by how far apart and how rounded they are. 

WE seem to have a similar ability range and history  yet I could have taken you to, say, Dovestones Edge in the 60s and pointed out Diffs which you would for the most part  have found measurably easier than the V.Diffs.

Maybe my memory is better or perhaps your ability was such that you joined climbing at a higher grade . I started off soloing Chew Valley moderates and Diffs in army stores boots then progressed to tying a rope on for the V. Diffs and buying a pair of Brigham's kletts for the Severes. 

As for your comment about 4b being a point below which the technical difficulty of a route becomes immaterial, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who think the same about 5b.

Wasn't there once a rough definition about hold size which had 5a holds the thickness of a cassette box and 5c holds the edge of a CD case or somesuch?

I'm sure that could be extrapolated ??? downwards so Diff holds are the size of, say, a Cornish pasty and V. Diffs  are more like sausage rolls. 

So your point about acuity is well taken, even if mine seems to have been better than yours 

Yes, I'd noticed that our achievements seemed rather similar. Not quite sure of your point though. Of COURSE we all knew that the grades were all over the place, particularly in pockets of Yorkshire and Derbyshire gritstone, but that was all part of the game.

No. John and I started leading in 1968 in Ogwen (straight from SE sandstone) at Moderate: Milestone Buttress Ordinary. We spent the whole of our first week working our way up classic Ogwen/Idwal routes in big boots (got up to Hard Severe), then in the second week we started leading our first VSs in Llanberis Pass.

Yes, I remember the way Johnny Dawes and Paul Pritchard spoke, 5b was the kind of bottom grade, like our 4b (or maybe even 2b at Harrisons!)

Yes, I remember that. Utter nonsense, but fun. Well, I suppose some truth in it.

I suppose so, if one could be bothered ...

Disagree with you here, I reckon there are many who could tell the difference between accurately graded 4a and 4b.

Any point in taking tech grades lower? I doubt it, was tried in Paul Nunn's Peak guide and it didn't really add anything.

There must be some who can give a good idea of when it's D and when it's VD, etc. But they'd have to be only operating in the lower grades.

I worked in Peak BMC and YMC teams alongside quite a few climbers who mainly led sub extreme, and plenty of much harder leaders. I witnessed  most of these experienced lower grade climbers  had a fair and normally consistent  feel for what constitutes a particular lower grades, so I'm pretty happy with a consensus of such climbers. A result of this was plenty of readjustment of old sandbag and soft touch grades, to clear anomalies, especially common on lower grade grit. Rockfax either pre-empted us or soon followed suit. On a few crags that we specifically authored, including Birchen and Woodhouse Scar, the team allowed the experiment of publishing tech grades for all routes in the published guides...some laughed but no one died in shock.

As we had climbed most popular lower grade routes on Peak grit, and much besides, and didn't care if others thought there was no point in comparing technicality on lower tech grades, we just always did it. We like the UK grading system and didn't see why it wasn't worthwhile noting something, when, for a team agreed adjectival grade, a route might also be bold or technical or some other useful characteristic for that grade. It started to help us remember the characteristics of the route but soon took off in its own right as key shorthand. There were also a small number of routes in the guidebooks where our grade suggestion was outvoted.  Later on we published these notes and grades for most of Peak grit on our website (and  have much more extensive unpublished records on most things we climb).   We have had plenty of supportive feedback. The Peak grit information is all avilable here:

http://offwidth.uptosummit.com/guides.html

We centre the technicallity of Mod on 2b, Diff on 2c, HD on 3a, VD on 3b,  HVD on 3c and Severe on 4a. It does add some minor distortion but where some people claim it's impossible to judge what we clearly can we are not overly worried with that.  We have had plenty of supportive feedback from lower grade leaders and soloists.

Our notes also record any listed or unlisted route, problem or variation we are aware of (most of which are on the website for Peak grit) and the full grade history for all the routes we describe, taken from all BMC Definitives,  Rockfax and VP.

These days there are very few examples in the Peak where we disagree with the UKC/ Rockfax logbook votes by more than a whole grade, despite us grading the vast majority before the logbooks started and the current edition was published. As major contibutors to the BMC team its obvious we have good agreement with those guides. For Rockfax we think that is because the grades of most climbs were already sensibly changed to take into account all the volunteer work, which was much wider than that of the BMC. We don't claim grade perfection but there does seem to be wide agreement now for Peak Grit from most climbers climbing those grades; the exact opposite from when we started climbing on it in the late 80s.

Our grade differences with the logbooks are wider elsewhere and we think that is due to less input from lower grade leaders in some  definitive teams.  Once grades are fixed we get voting distortions from confirmation bias by people with no feel for the grade (and on those, like say Land's End Long Climb, similar wise heads in the comments say its tough S or probably even HS ...knowing what a VD should be like, and its not.).

Leading VSs in your 2nd week is certainly coming in at a higher level than some of us You underestimate how rubbish some people are at climbing! For reference I spent my first 3 years never leading harder than VDiff and falling off any 4c moves I tried to second. I could absolutely tell the difference between Diff and VDiff. I've now been climbing 9 years and still lead no harder than HS, I think my 4a and 4b compass is fairly accurate...

(I should say whilst definitely not an obsessive climber most years I lead 100+ pitches of trad, plus second a bunch of stuff and sport climb so its lack of ability rather than just a lack of climbing) 

But we didn't come straight into it, in that we'd been top-roping obsessively on s/e sandstone for 18 months. For the first 15 months we were climbing/struggling up to 5a/5b, but the big breakthrough – I remember suddenly getting a whole lot stronger - came in March 68 with Unclimbed Wall, and by May we were climbing strongly at 5c (Slim Finger Crack etc). We seemed to make the transition to leading very easily a couple of months later in N Wales, probably because we were sensible enough to start at Moderate and spend first week climbing up to Hard Severe.

Ah well that makes sense, southern sandstone is pretty ideal training ground so no wonder you skipped through the grades in Wales.

My first few years were schlepping around on easy routes mostly in the mountains and on gritstone often with even less experienced companions which probably honed my ability to distinguish between easy grades (and deal with idiotic rope fankles) rather more than it did my climbing technique.

Diff and V -Diff ? as easily as I can tell the difference between Mod and Diff, V Diff and Mild Severe, E1/E2 etc 

I don't really see how the easiness of the grade affects this - more of an issue higher up

I think it becomes progressively easier to grade as climbs become more technically difficult. For me 5a, 5b and 5c are extremely useful quite clearly distinguishable (though there are always many climbs that are 'on the edge' ... as if it matters. They're just quite useful tools, not the be-all and end-all of climbing. The technical grades were invented long after the adjectival ones, anyway.)

Christ! When people start dismissing the likes of routes on Gimmer and Cenotaph Corner, you know tongues are either firmly in cheeks or that these people just haven't yet realised that they actually hate climbing...

Not really.

I understand the Gimmer comments quite easily. My post wasn't about routes which were substandard for the grade and star rating  but rather about those which you have forgotten the details of and, apart from F Route, which isn't really like the others, I can't remember which of the Gimmer alphabet routes I've done.

Yes, absolutely incredible re. Cenotaph. I think the The Corner and The Gates complement each other perfectly. The latter is the more enjoyable climb, outstanding of its type, but the Corner is almost unique (there's one other similar big one up in Scotland). What's so memorable is the unusual perspective as you bridge out on those huge walls. The weakness of the Corner is that it's very uneven, with the crux much harder than the rest ... but it is right at the top 'just where it should be'. People who dismiss it as a VS trudge below the crux are probably draped with a huge skirt of modern protection/friends. Remember, when it was first done in 1952 it had about a couple of chockstones and 3 pegs for protection, that's all. 

I don't think the alphabet routes on Gimmer are rubbish. Just far less distinct and memorable than Lakes routes like Corvus, Bowfell Buttress and Arete Chimney and Crack

I remember much more about CC than CG. The corner might feel a bit unbalanced with the modern gear I had but I found the climbing wonderfully varied. CG had great positions and was nicely sustained but I can't remember the moves particularly

Agreed. I enjoyed CG immensely because I was on good form and it went very smoothly, and the route is sensationally positioned. But, what you say is true: the climb is not technically interesting or puzzling, just straightforward jamming and pocket pulling. Whereas, CC is much more varied, as you say, and feels much more 'special'.

Strange that some of those saying that CC isn't memorable can describe the route in great detail to back up their claims

I wonder if the alphabet routes on Gimmer are forgettable partly because the names are so forgettable - I can never remember which is which without checking. But "D" certainly follows a really obvious line, all you have to do is rename it "The Great Crack" or some such and it'd stick in the mind a lot more.

Hang on, aren't you thinking of F Route?

It’s trendy to run Cenotaph Corner down. It’s saying ‘look how cool I am.’

err um, Cloggy Corner Gordon?

Cloggy Corner has much narrower walls. Not the same feeling of perspective at all. I haven't done it myself, but took pictures of my brother doing it (looking down from the top). I don't remember him saying it was particularly wonderful, perhaps 'quite good' at very most.

I've done it once, 40 years ago and remember it perfectly.  And running down to the Vaynol for last orders and, indeed, the pint.

I had to check! But no, E route follows a fine long crack as well. I don't remember F because I haven't done it yet

Hang on again, you said 'D' Route

I remember D route clearly.  It's on Dow.

I'm just providing evidence for my assertion that it's the names that are not memorable rather than the routes! I definitely meant D. I think...

I think that's nonsense, frankly. The situation is fantastic. The rock is fantastic. There are named features along the way (e.g. Amen Corner).

I can remember distinct sections of D Route in detail, having not climbed it since the summer. It's reasonably varied, with a shallow groove leading into a slightly tenuous traverse left into an romping groove line and traverse back right. The exposure is building as you start to grapple with a fairly steep crack that is liable to fill a Severe leader with a sense of dread, but succumbs with ease if you lob in a couple of bits of gear from the rest and then just go for it. Easier ground then gives out into a nook from which there are two options: a ramp to the left or a corner chimney further back. I remember the first time I did the route I took the chimney, because it looked more secure, and a party on Crimson Pirate told me it was 4b. The second time I did D Route, I took the ramp, which produced the most balancey and momentarily insecure moves of the climb. Both of my "seconds" found that section distinctly exciting and memorable, and debated whether they preferred D Route to Asterisk - which, personally, I thought great fun and almost as fantastic as NW Arete. I could describe both in detail from memory - but I won't bore you.

D Route (and Bracket and Slab) are pretty archetypal Lakeland Severes, in my book - the measure against which others are judged. NW Arete is archetypal Lakeland VS and Whit's End Direct archetypal Lakeland E1. When you think WED is boring or unmemorable, it's your own head that needs checking. IMO, it's the king line of the crag. It's right up the f-ing centre of the crag, with an off-balance slanting crack leading into thin slab moves all the way up to a couple of burly moves through the overlap/roof. If that doesn't get you going, you're not climbing, you're sleepwalking.

All I can say is, sensitivity on the part of the climber may be lacking, but the climbs are not. 

Great Western at Almscliff; I think  I’ve done it