UKH

My local climbing wall put up a new fist jamming crack using the wideboyz holds this week. I seem to have the technique down now so I'm keen to try it outdoors.

What good routes are there to practice on? I've done the odd fist jam in 'passive' placements, but there must be some nice parallel grit cracks at that width. Like Bond Street but wider I guess.

Cheers!

In reply to Suncream:

The obvious choice would be the file at Higgar Tor but tbh there's hundreds of them all over the place. Get stuck in!!  

In reply to Suncream:

And The Vice at Stanage. One of the best. 

In reply to Suncream:

Raises a wry eyebrow, Roger Moore style...

Good luck, report back once the scars have healed.  

In reply to deacondeacon:

File is a brilliant route but certainly not a fist crack unless you have tiny hands

In reply to Suncream:

Book yourself a holiday in Northumberland and do Baluster Crack at Ravensheugh.

Thank me later 😇😉

In reply to Suncream:

There are a few ticklists you can browse via the UKC logs. This one is quite good as it splits up the different size cracks>

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=1242

Pick the climbs and add them to your wishlist.

I also use crack gloves made by Ocun. Cheating is it? Maybe take those rubber shoes off then!

In reply to deacondeacon:

I never noticed that you have tiny teeny little hands, a bit like the leader of the free world.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

This is a great list, thanks, exactly what I was after!

In reply to Suncream:

Go to ramshaw rocks

Don't get too disheartened when you get thrashed . It's a technique that takes time to perfect 

In reply to Suncream:

There are plenty high up in the peak, get up onto the maul-land grit.

In reply to Suncream:

Cave Crack at Froggatt would be a an easily accessible starting point. 

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Lol, looks like I'm Mis-remembering it, especially with all the dislikes (my memory is worthless though. Went to Woodhouse scar yesterday and couldn't remember ever being there before).

I'm sure the vice can stay in the list though  

In reply to Suncream:

Blue Light's Crack (E1 5b) up at Wimberry, can fist jam most of it. The start of Freddie's Finale (HVS 5b) is a hard fist jam for move for most people. 

Also lots of the routes at Ramshaw have hard single fit jam moves on them. 

In reply to deacondeacon:

I managed it (second attempt - first go was as a "VS" leader, yeah I know), which means it's definitely hands not fists.

I honestly don't think I've ever climbed a fist crack. I've done the odd fist jam here and there but I'd almost always go with a cupped hand instead which is about the same size, and equally insecure, for me. 

In reply to deacondeacon:

The Vice gradually widens as it gets higher, so there's a bit of everything.  It's only a fist crack after it's a hand crack, but before it becomes an offwidth.

Sorrell's Sorrow (HVS 5a) is missing off the list above.  It has a great burly fist-crack boulder problem start, leading into more easily angled offwidth shenanigans above.  Any visit to Curbar by a fan of climbing fisticuffs should include an ascent (probably a solo because it's tiny) of The Pugilist (HS 4b).  (The clue is in the name!)

In reply to deepsoup:

Make sure you have a big cam for sorrels sorrow. Felt about E2 without one!   

In reply to Suncream:

Dexterity at Millstone.

In reply to Suncream:

To echo comments above Freddie's Finale and Dexterity are to the the best. I can't comment on the Vice though as I barely got off the ground!

In reply to Suncream:

The Trident (E1 5b) - one fist sized crack all the way up the back of the pod and bugger all else apart from friction and pebbles. Get stuck in  

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Hand jams for me. I don't have big hands. I think I used a couple of fists on Freddie's Finale (HVS 5b) though.

In reply to OwenM:

Really? Again, perfect hand jams, until it all starts to wrong. But it doesn't go wrong in a wide way, it just goes wrong.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I seem to recall a proper sideways fist most of the way, I'm not particularly large handed but not small either. Perhaps the battering I received has jaded my memory of it somewhat.. 

In reply to George Frisby:

I couldn't! Far too wide.

In reply to deacondeacon:

I must have had a couple of biggish cams when I did it because although it was a good bit of crack climbing I found it one of the easier HVSs I've done onsight on grit - neither scary nor particularly hard. At Curbar for instance I found Avalanche Wall harder and most think that's the easiest of the HVSs there!

In reply to Jez

Herfords crack, Cwm Idwal. Forked Lightening Crack, Heptonstall,  The Creation, Guisecliff.

In reply to Suncream:

I seem to remember that Little Innominate (VS 5a) at Curbar goes from hands to fists in its short length. 

In reply to Jon Stewart: 

I think I used a couple of fists on Freddie's Finale (HVS 5b) though.

Yeah, and that's the 5b bit too. It's the closest I've come to proper fist jamming

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Indeed, from my logbook for Dexterity:

"backed off the lead, then gave up on second in the same place. not my finest hour"

Don't remember any fists though!

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, plenty to keep me occupied when the weather improves

In reply to Suncream:

As others have said. 'The File' at Higgar tor.

Maybe add Great Harry at Lawrencefield quarry to your list. Steady VS4c.    

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Perfect hands for me too up the back of pod, but then maybe my hands are a couple of cauliflowers...

In reply to Suncream:

Surprised and not a little disappointed at the lack of sandbagging in this thread  

In reply to deacondeacon:

It's not you. The File becomes a fist crack when it jags left near the top (the crux for some). Woodhouse Scar has a very different feel compared to even a decade ago as the recent undergrowth is so verdant. A bunch of people try and keep the routes and problems clean; on that, for hero points always take thick gloves to pull out any brambles on the crag and a bag and gloves for the scallies litter.

The OP maybe needs to look at quarried grit for sustained fists. Of the suggestions above Little Innominate at Curbar is my recommended test for being ready for grit HVS..... when you can lap it solo above a bouldering mat you are ready for most that grit can throw at you on hand and fist (notable exceptions at Ramshaw)... further along at Curbar, Dog Leg Crack provides a similar test for being ready to climb the easier VS jamming cracks.

In reply to Tom Last:

You clearly haven't climbed The Vice. 

In reply to brianjcooper:

The File would be one I'd say should be avoided. It could do without any more dogging as the crack is starting to suffer from people grinding the rock whilst resting on cams and it's so good (a contender for the best VS jamming crack on gritstone)  its worth saving for that perfect day when it's a challenge you will feel keenly but likely win cleanly.

In reply to Suncream:

Have a look at The Little Unconquerable at Stanage, sideways fists for a few moves if you stick with the crack and one I really enjoyed..

In reply to Suncream:

Estremo down the far end of Millstone has a few metres of fist crack and is a good intro, Shaftesbury Avenue as mentioned is probably in the right size range, but irritatingly just a bit too wide for me to fist jam properly.

In reply to TobyA:

If I remember correctly, it only needs one fist jam really, but it's so good. I did it yonks ago on a misty, slimy day but the memorable fist jam still worked a treat.

In reply to Suncream:

Bottom half of The Golden Tower (E2 5c) at  Anglezarke Quarry is a fabulous leaning jam crack

Steve

In reply to Offwidth:

I think you may be underestimating the Cornish approach to sand bagging, I mean unless The Vice is actually E6?  

I typically need a few years rest between taking Tom's suggestions for good routes. 

In reply to Offwidth:

I have! I thought it was great and not overly hard - at least not for that sort of thing.

In reply to Tom Last:

Same here. I built myself up to it, expecting a battle and tbh it was fine (well OK, a bit of old fashioned hard work). Still a must do though! 

In reply to Reach>Talent:

It's a sandbag in my view being a very likely E2, given E1 and which was HVS for a long time.  If you're an expert jammer with big leathery hands you should rightly get a piss easy E2 tick on such routes but for the average E1/E2 borderline leader it's more often a humilating failure or dog and we should grade for the average onsight competant climber who can jam, not the specialists. Sure it's not as bad as some jamming grit sandbags, most notably Masochism, and yes I know about Cornish offwidths having had ridiculous scary struggles on routes as low graded as severe. Deliberate bad grading is all dumb.

In reply to Offwidth:

The Vice is never E2!

Safe, hard work 5B is E1

Tbh I'd be happy with a hard for the grade HVS. This is one route where its bark is much worse than its bite.

Now Masochism is a route that deserves E2, much harder than the vice (actually narw E1 is fine ) 

In reply to brianjcooper:

I politely disagree. I am awful at jamming and even tend to find more difficult alternative methods, in order to avoid it! However on Great Harry, I didn't even THINK "oh this is all jamming, poor me, I'll layback with difficulty and make it all sketchy". I just instinctively did it mostly as laybacks with great protection and plenty of rests (it felt like a series of block boulders to me). 
Sure it can be done as jamming all the way and it provides that opportunity to the OP if that is what he wants, but honestly the layback felt "natural" to me. I do like laybacks though, so...

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Should Hawk's Nest Crack at Froggatt be on this list? Can't remember if it is fist jamming or offwidth. See my post above, about my awful jamming. I had quite a hard time on Hawk's Nest Crack, basically squeezing as much of my left hand side (shoulder to thigh) sideways on, and inching up the whole thing like a stoned caterpillar. Soon to be followed by a gentleman on lead but he may as well have soloed it, he was that fast and confident, who declared "lovely jamming, do this every year on my birthday" at the top, while I was still in a beached-whale spaced-out recovery state  

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Yeah I did Great Harry as a bridgy layback, but that was when VS was at my limit and it felt incredibly pumpy I seem to remember! Maybe next time I'm at Lawrencefield I'll have another go, jamming the whole thing.

In reply to Suncream:

It's an odd one. VS is pretty much my limit, I have onsighted 5 or 6 HVS but none since 2014, and I did Great Harry later than that and actually found it easy enough that I bothered to check the UKC logbooks to see if everyone shared this view, and found a lot of comments saying it was awkward and hard for the grade. Maybe I was just particularly on form that day, I didn't find it pumpy as I found the moves just "came to me" easily. Maybe a bit reachy and maybe I went slightly bold? I certainly had more of a struggle more recently seconding it, but that was on a crazy hot day when the rock was so hot to touch, that 70% of visitors to Lawrencefield departed as soon as the they touched it, and returned at 4pm. Whereas us masochists stayed there but still had to wait for Great Harry to cool down a bit, and even then it was questionable. 

Sorry for minor hijack!

In reply to Blue Straggler:

 Continuing the 'Great Harry' comments.

I wished I had your arm strength. Laybacking too strenuous for me. Jamming the crack seemed less of an effort.   I probably need to work on the weights a bit more.

I agree with Offwidth though, the climb is not all about the crack. Delicate finish moves too.  

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Proper struggle, that one! Classic Joe Brown. I remember it being a bit too wide for my fists through the crux low down.

I'm not a good jammer though, and I had a really hard time on HNC and couldn't get off the ground on Fern Crack at Stanage. Is the bottom of Fern Crack jamming, or does it require magic to get up? I didn't care much for the comment in the guidebook (from someone who probably climbs high extremes) that no matter what anyone says, it's no harder than VS or 4c. It might feel like VS 4c if you were born and raised in a grit crack but for anyone else it's got to be 5a at least!?

In reply to PaulJepson:

 <Is the bottom of Fern Crack jamming, or does it require magic to get up? 

Scaffolding?

Last time I did it I laybacked it without any kind of style.

In reply to PaulJepson:

Layback it. It's too wide to jam, and one side of the crack sticks out so you put your feet on it. It's probably the least magical thing on grit! But yes, it might be 5a as it's a bit rounded.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Yeah Masochism is nails compared to The Vice. Though I managed that on sight and fell off The Vice first go, so who knows, had a good day I guess. 

In reply to Offwidth:

The Ramshaw jamming list does have a few choice sandbags; Masochism completely ruined me and I doubt I managed 12 feet of it while seconding! I would previously have described myself as someone who was fairly competent at jamming. 

In reply to Suncream:

Thrug (VS 5a)

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Last time I was at fern crack, I did it both ways.

Jamming was a grade easier for me, far more secure , everybody has their own style.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Mine must be neither of those then!

In reply to brianjcooper:

I just went quick!

> Jamming the crack seemed less of an effort.  

yes, I do really need to work on the jamming. 

Yup, I am sure that when I led it I was just having an out-of-character awesome day, I think I quickly scuttled up the exit on a runout, and later struggled on second!

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

 

Thanks for this comment, and to Jezz0r for the thread. Alongside a comment last year from AJM who said that even if you jam happily, crack gloves enable you to choose the BEST jam as opposed to the jam that hurts least, this has finally made me decide to get some, there is no shame in it. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I still feel remote from the crag using them, and still a bit ashamed.

What made me buy some of the latest model was feedback that they were good in wet and cold cracks especially granite .

Even with a thin material pair , thin hand cracks are often easier without, can save trying  baggy torqued fingers or ring locks.

Amusing that this thread has drifted away from fist to hand cracks, ( and how to avoid jamming by lay backing).

In reply to Rick Graham:

Are gloves not still somewhat helpful on fist cracks though? I realise that your hand will be shaped differently and possibly slighly "wrinkle" the glove but I expected it could still help? Not affecting my purchase but just thinking "have we strayed too far off topic?"

(I have quite small hands btw)

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I would expect gloves to make 95% of jams better.It is harder ( for me ) to fist jam parallel cracks , gloves will provide a lot of friction.I just find my meaty mitts restricted in tight hand cracks with gloves.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Finding myself name checked whilst looking for ideas...!

I found that the first pair of tape gloves I made were revelatory in that respect, allowing me to focus on good jams rather than most comfortable jams. Actual crack gloves are obviously a lot more convenient as far as creation and reusability goes.

I've not tried a direct comparison of the two, only the improvement over bare hands. I can definitely see the argument that tape gloves, being thinner, will still be more useful at particular widths where you can get a bit more hand into the crack than you can with the thicker crack glove.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I'm pretty certain I jammed it, you obviously just didn't stick a sufficiently fat part of your body in there!

The start of Goliath's Groove is wider and you can sort of still wiggle and jam up there!

In reply to Reach>Talent:

You did just great that day, Mike  

In reply to deacondeacon:

"The Vice is never E2"

I think it is lower E2 onsight from watching the failures and falls and struggles of low extreme leaders who know how to jam at E1 but are not E1 jamming specialists. The way improvements in shoes and gear and training have made slabs, overhangs  and face climbs easier but can't tame fist jam brutes is more evidence; it probably was tough HVS once but the average population skillset has changed and grades are for a nominal modern average onsight leader. The look of the UKC logbooks taking onto account confirmation bias (most people will vote the grade it is unless they really feel it's not, so such routes tend to have vote averages distorted downwards..), and the fact it will miss all the voters chasing a soft-touch E1 tick (that inflate E1 voting) also makes it looks lower E2. Tom who said its not a sandbag fell off it (and is very honest to admit this). I could also give a list of E2s on Stanage that are easier.

Comparing anything with Masochism is daft... it's the biggest starred HVS sandbag I know in the UK. Some hard core moorland climbers I trust think its E3.

In reply to AJM:

Aha! Sorry, I'd forgotten that you'd been talking about tape gloves as opposed to the "bought" ones, but I think the comment still stands, in general. 

You deserve a namecheck every now and then, in honour of your always(?) sensible and never unnecessarily argumentative contributions to technical talk  

In reply to Offwidth:

The hard bit isn't fist jamming though, it's the wider bit at the top, at least as I recall it.

I've decided Masochism might have to go on my 2020 to do list...

In reply to TobyA:

Goliath's Groove takes a knee for a hand's off rest. Though reading Gary Gibson's autobiography and having to be rescued off Hen Cloud with a stuck knee gives pause for thought

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I doubt anyone whose limit is hvs would be able to do masochism. 

It's a good fight 

In reply to mark s:

How very dare you! 

In reply to Dave Garnett:

It depends on the particular skills of the leader... all I can say is I've seen the Vice spit out more E1 onsight leaders than those who got to the top and I've never seen an E1 leader onsight it elegantly (albeit I have seen that from those who know it and jam well). Some awkward jamming routes seem to have that hidden surprise factor onsight that become OK with familiarity... Little Unconquerable is another.

It's not like I always undergrade fights..... from examples above I find Fern Crack OK as VS and find Goliaths Groove and Sorrells Sorrow barely into HVS but get why others find them harder.

Good luck with Masochism... please get someone to film it on their phone.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Haha your limit isn't hvs . You should be ok on it 

In reply to mark s:

Most HVS leaders who are really good at jamming should be able to lead the odd jamming E2.

In reply to Offwidth:

Here's an odd jamming E2!

Foord's Folly (E2 6a)#overview

In reply to Suncream:

Another thought, if you just want a single fist jam, the direct start to Jankers Groove might be your thing...The Whillans Direct (f6C) Although I've tried it and been found very wanting, YMMV. Good luck!

In reply to TobyA:

The Simond ones from Decathalon are the best I've used now. I've been through 3 pairs of ocun gloves and now have the Simond ones and they are lasting really well, especially if you put one strap of thin tape over the Velcro to each time you use to stop the fastening catching on deep jams. 

Issues with the Ocun ones are that they delaminate due to the stupid cut out pattern on the backs and the strap breaks gradually. You can cut this off and just use tape to attach them, but then you might aswell go for the Simond ones which are £10 cheaper and have a nice clean back to them. Simond ones are also a bit thinner which is nice on thin jams, ocun ones are pretty thick. 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Bloody painful!

On loan from Ramshaw? 

Mick

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I'll come over and belay Dave. And possibly laugh.

In reply to George Frisby:

My Ocun ones are holding up well, no delamination and the strap is still fine. But I didn't even know Simmond were making them - oddly they haven't had them in Sheffield Decathlon as I would imagine they would sell like hotcakes!

In reply to TobyA:

Could be my bad technique! I used the ocuns to learn so maybe was relying on the glove too much. Although, all my mates have had the same issue with the strap, it gradually breaks at the part of the glove where you fold the strap through, just due to the pressure exerted on that point from the strap itself when weighted in jams. 

The Simond ones are only available online, so you have to get them sent to a store or an ASDA. They have the same issue with the strap but easily solved with one wrap of tape on the wrist. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I have probably said it about both at various points. They made  me actually want to get stuck into jamming (as something I haven't historically done much of, I quite like it because I can still see improvement over a fairly reasonable timescale) rather than avoiding it.

I shall take "never unnecessarily argumentative" and treasure it

In reply to TobyA:

Mine are ocun, and I definitely found at Fairhead last year a few occasions where the crack gloves made worse an already existing "I can't get enough of my hand in this crack" problem! Thin hands are not my strong suit...

In reply to AJM:

Yes I guess they will always be times when having the gloves on is an advantage and equally other times when they are a disadvantage! I remember taking them off with my teeth and throwing them down at my belayer when doing a classic Bohuslän hand crack! Easier to take them off mid climb than put them on though!

In reply to comments from owners of crack gloves:

Very interesting, I was close to ordering some OR ones assuming that as they are a tiny tiny bit more expensive, they should be the ones to go for. From the above (and I know it’s hardly scientific) I think I might try Decathlon ones !