UKH

Does anybody recommend the Edelrid Ohm?  Specifically for when my daughter is belaying myself.  Are they accepted for use in climbing walls generally?

My petit wife uses it to belay me with minimal problems - I wish it worked on trad climbs!

Prior to that, she was never really confident to belay me, which rubbed of on my confidence to climb. 

Yes, they're brilliant. Very good indeed. The only drawback is that you have to pull the rope slightly slower than you might be used to when clipping in order to prevent the ohm from jamming.

Yes, and yes as far as Ratho wall (EICA) is concerned. They actually provide Ohms to climbers free of charge if required (some security required) and have specific bolts to clip Ohms to (relatively low down to enable easy initial clipping and unclipping after lowering).

They work brilliantly and, I think surprisingly, don't seem to give noticeable rope drag.

Used it with my daughter, the weight difference is still to big to easily hold a fall ... (my fault, not hers). But it is ok for a rest, for example.

Thanks for the replies, its clear that it's a good idea!

I think they're good John. I took one to kalymnos for Nic, and it worked a treat. I was way happier taking big lobs with her belaying me (she's a lot lighter than me). They aren't great for working stuff, as every time you pull back on you have to jiggle the rope a bit to unsnag it. And steep routes with a slabby start could make it tricky. But generally great.

Are you in Devon still? You're welcome to borrow mine if you want to give it a go. 

Yes, it works well. For both leading and top-roping/lowering off. 

Just check your regular wall actually has proper bolt hangers at the top of the in-situ draws. 

Some of the routes at Ingleton wall have this kind of concealed plastic covered connector between the dog-bone and the wall. You can't clip in direct to the bolt there and it feels a bit dodgy/over-extended clipping the snap gate of the ohm to the snap gate on the draw.

Absolutely brilliant.  Mean I can lead safely with a belayer less than half my weight.

One thing is that using one for toproping is a bit cack handed as the rope runs up the wall, but still possible.

Never had a wall say no, though I have had funny looks from staff about a very light belayer compared to me until they saw that one was in use.

Yes, totally awesome bit of kit. My nephew who is 40kg lighter than me can belay me and lower me without a problem. I also use a click up to ensure he catches me. Lowering is smooth and easy, the only thing I would say is they work better with a more acute angle on the rope between vertical and the belayer. I.e. its better if the belayer stand out from the wall a little.

They are a nuisance for lead climbing if you need to clip fast and high because they can lock and then there is a little dance of dropping and wriggling the rope to get them to free up.

Still they will catch you when you fall as a result...

In replyit  to gravy:

I have found that is only a problem when the belayer has you tight or short ropes you, which is annoying as it doubles down on the initial mistake. 

They are designed to lock up only when the rope goes tight, so if the belayer short ropes you or generally has you on a tight belay, it locks up often; a more relaxed belay with a bit of slack to give a softer catch, and it's not a problem (clearly when safe to do so etc.)

Overall I strongly recommend them; it takes a bit of adjustment from the belayer to be perfect, but it is a great tool.

Yes, that is true. I've found not yanking the rope up is better and eing as smooth as possible helps. Or clipping up to the bolt to clip works. Still, it makes it possible for me to teach someone to climb who is MUCH smaller than me without fearing for my life.

Hi Mike, by better, what do you mean? Thanks. I was kind of wondering the opposite, might it lock less when not needed if placed on second bolt (if unlikely to fall before then)?

I was wondering why people say these can't be used for trad.

To work there would need to be a piece that could take an upwards pull, but at some point before the crux this is very likely. If the piece pulls I can't see how the result would be worse than not having placed it. Am I missing something?

Thanks

They can be used for trad but you need a multidirectional anchor low down.

makes it awkward to place on 2nd bolt.  i (and assume everyone!) pre-loads it onto the rope before clipping to  the first bolt.

If you’ve committed to a trad lead above a light belayer with an Ohm, and then the piece holding the Ohm fails then you and the belayer may be worse off than if you’d opted to tie down the belayer. 

So I think the think about the Ohm is that it works by forcing the rope into a tight v notch, compressing the rope. This happens when the rope is under tension, and more acutely when the belayer is standing slightly away from the bottom of the crag, creating an angle in the rope which tugs on the Ohm. I think if you used it on a second bolt, it may not work at all? Not sure on that but to me it doesn't seem like it would be a given, whereas on the first bolt it is. 

As for the upwards issue, you are of course correct. I think the bolted route only instruction in the manual is Edelrid covering their arses, because if the anchor fails, the belayer will shoot off up the hill. It's fairly guaranteed that a bolt wont fail, whereas it's less so on trad. I think if you are careful and choose failsafe anchors, there's no reason not to use it on trad, but I wouldn't go around recommending it to people just incase they cock up.

It isn't, to be fair, really suitable for trad, nor really designed for that purpose (it's designed for sport and indoor), though if you can get a piece that can pull both up and down and use it *in addition to* a ground anchor then it might improve safety further.  Catching a heavy person is hard even if you're heavy!

Hi Neil, 

I guess I'm trying to get to grips with why it isn't suitable for trad. Assuming it doesn't make it less likely you form a ground anchor, why could it ever be a bad idea.

Often the ground anchor is some distance from the base, creating other safety issues. I would have thought it might make a useful addition to the armory.

I can also see potential uses on trad multipitch, where again low pieces can be hard to find

The issue is that you'd need to find a piece of gear which would be able to take a pull from pretty much any direction, or certainly up and down (up in case of a fall, down in case of the device getting slack and dropping back down, it's fairly heavy), and that will also be fine with being pulled up and down repeatedly.

That isn't many placements, so it'd probably only be reliable if you were able to clip it to a threaded sling.

I think we might be debating the word, need, to find a solid multidirectional piece. I'm not sure this is true. As there seems to be no downside to it failing. Getting hit in the face by it being the only one I can see. 

Best to get a multidirectional, yes. But I'm guessing, that as the force on it will not be 22kN, any horizontal cam placement would do, or a cam and wire in a vertical crack. 

It would not be a panacea, but if it could work on many climbs it might have some utility 

The downside to it failing is that the belayer is dragged up in the air hard, potentially hitting the first piece and causing the climber to deck.

If that wouldn't happen (or you're doing something else to mitigate that e.g. a ground anchor), then there's no need to use it in the first place - it's there to deal with significant, potentially dangerous weight imbalances between belayer and climber.

I have found that they work a lot more smoothly if clipped to the second bolt. 

They work though? Fair play - I've not tried it like that. I just assumed they wouldnt! Shows what I know...

But how is that different to what would happen if you had not used one? I really am lost. 

Thanks Roger, when you say work more smoothly, I assume they still grab just as well even if the first 2 bolts are in a dead straight line, like at the wall? Thanks 

Yes, only used it outside though. If anyone is familiar with Moy rock I started using it like that after I kept sabotaging myself on Little Teaser trying to clip the last bolt before my fingers packed in. Kept rushing the clip jamming the rope, I think because there is quite a large angle if the belayer stays on the flat ground. Once we moved the Ohm up to the second bolt it didn't jam. Definitely still worked as my fingers packed it on the last move and it was thoroughly tested.

I tried it out of frustration and desperation. Surprised it worked too but it does.

You would only use one if the weight balance between the belayer and the climber is so far off that it would be dangerous or at least borderline dangerous.  That's literally the whole point of them.  If it wouldn't be, you'd not use one as it would only have disadvantages.

In essence, one is used to allow a heavy climber to be belayed by a light one who could not otherwise safely climb as a pair.

A good cam would be suitable too. Wires etc could be arranged but it might require a good amount of time to arrange and multiple pieces. Basically it's got to be as secure as a bolt.

I think another aspect for me would be that because you need to not stand directly under the first piece to make the Ohm engage properly (the instructions talk about being about 1m from the fall line) then if the first piece (with the Ohm) does rip, then you're now at risk of zippering out your other pieces. Because you've intentionally had your belayer stand away from where you ideally want them, they're putting outward/upward load on all the other pieces to (see https://www.climbing.com/videos/weekend-whipper-gear-ripping-trad-climbing-... for an example of this in action).

I like my Ohm, but will definitely be sticking to using it for sport/indoors.

Great piece of kit. Personally I like to put it in the first bolt with a clip stick and take it out while lowering off as it can be awkward while seconding. 

Care is needed while removing it while lowering as full weight will come on the belayer while climber coming down is very close to the ground. (I like to maintain the assistance provided by the OHM  by attaching it to my harness tie in loop with a quick draw before taking it off the bolt, but a lowering climber can also just briefly hold on to it as coming down the last few metres to the ground.

I'd be worried about it "walking" itself around as the device moves up and down, but if you can place one so it won't then that would probably work, yes.

Yep.

I just solo back up on an easy route to get it, though that may be less feasible outdoors.  Or sometimes if I'm knackered the belayer does it for me.

I've seen some big jolts taken by tiny be layers when the OHM is removed and if the start is hard/overhanging, a ground fall is likely as the stretch of the rope is massive. 

Possibly because Edelrid say it is to be used only on bolts?  I'd suggest that is a pretty convincing point.

If you look at photos of an Ohm in action, when they provide maximum braking assistance the direction of pull is pretty much straight outwards on the first 'gear'.

Should that gear fail then the next piece up gets shock-loaded, again in an outwards direction.

Should that gear fail then.......

I understand that. And I'm only thinking about such situations. My point is, in such situations, what is the disadvantage of using one on trad? This is a genuine question. Yes, it could fail, but so what, it only means you are back where you were with an airborne second. Or am I missing something? The only thing I can spot is that you don't want to get hit on the face by an ohm. 

Now that sounds interesting. Thanks

I was assuming the ohm piece was often an additional first runner. Below the first true runner. Bit like the low directional piece (but not so low, just below the true first piece) we use if having to run backwards when trying to stop a ground fall. If this blows, surely it is no worse than if it had not been there? After all we don't normally say, avoid placing low runners as it increases zippering? 

Yes.

The point is that if you've got a 22 stone climber and a 10 stone belayer (yes, I'm in that position) then it's Ohm or no climbing, and a failure would be potentially catastrophically dangerous.

If the climber and belayer balance safely without an Ohm you'd not want to use one in the first place.

An airborne second with that sort of weight difference has a very high chance of resulting in both being dead or at least seriously injured.  They're not going to be pulled up a metre or two, they're going to go absolutely flying and rip gear out all the way up.

Thanks. Good point. But to be honest, it is very rare I see someone less than 1m from the wall, inside or out. Or more precisely, less than 1m out from the location of the first piece. This would be all but impossible, unless the climb in initially vertical or steeper.

I still don't get this. Surely failure only puts you back in the scenario you were in. Plus a bolt can take 20kN, not the force this is likely to be 

The scenario you would be in without it is a dangerous one.  You use it to allow climbers of substantially different weights to climb together without dying or being seriously hurt.

Neil I really am stuck and I feel we are going in circles. Sorry.

1. I am only talking about when there is a large difference in weight and the potential for a dangerous situation, for example, no 100% secure ground anchor.

2. I am trying to discover why one would actively reject using one on trad in such a situation.

The only two we have so far I think are, being hit by a flying ohm, making sure the ohm piece is in addition to the real first piece, so the potential for zippering is not increased.

If 1 is the case, it's Ohm or don't climb.  Not using one and one failing probably carry the same risk, but both risks are unacceptable.

Thanks for that and taking the time. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I see climbing as far from risk free, ropes get chopped, carabiners fail on bolts, avalanches happen. Holds snap, gear fails. Ice screws pull out of mush. This seems to fit into this category for me. It is yet another risk to be managed.

If possible, climb trad with someone the same weight.

But for small women for example, this does restrict who they can climb with. One of my partners is 4ft 11, and  skinny. That leaves almost no one to climb with. 

So if you are going to climb with a heavier person, take precautions. Maybe just maybe, the ohm could add safety here? I'm not sure, but fishing about. 

What would be less good would be if an ohm on trad made people feel safe. Climbing isnt. 

I think the scenario that Neil is talking about is where the OHM is fixed to the first piece of gear which fails because of the upward pull and the belayer gets lifted up and the OMH then gets caught on the second piece of gear which also fails because it can’t hold an upward pull. This repeats as each piece of gear fails because they can’t hold an upward pull until the belayer reaches the top piece of gear and the leader is on the ground.

I use one at walls and for sport when climbing with my much lighter wife -  they are excellent. Sometimes I don’t use it on a red point  attempt outside if I need to clip fast etc..  (ok, perhaps I should clip in more control..!) and we just accept the consequences occasionally of her getting lifted and me falling further…

A couple of other things:

- it doesn’t just address the difference in weight - also benefits in terms of less of a jolt and less back strain for the belayer if working moves.

- belayer needs to learn where to stand relative to the first bolt - slabby starts, vertical walls, overhanging start, then slabby etc all create different forces on the ohm. (Not a problem, but it engages and disengages differently depending on the angle of pull on the rope…

- trad. I don’t use it for trad - I think it would make the repetitive feeding out/taking in more difficult, and also causes a harsher fall-arrest, which is not a problem on a bolt, but might be on gear at times…

- they are heavy, so if you bother to carry it, you will definitely use it 😂 .

This could be a stupid question, but how useful is the ohm for lowering from top roping at a wall? I've used an ohm for leading, but would like to let my (much lighter) grandson lower me after top roping too. Anyone help on this?

Dave

Yep, that was my concern.

It works fine.  Only annoyance is that the rope runs up the wall and so can get in the way.

Crikey. If that could happen, what's the difference between the ohm thumping into the pieces and lifting them out, and no ohm and the belayer thumping into them and lifting the pieces out? If anything I'd kind of think it would be best if the ohm did the ripping, otherwise the seconds body will be repeatedly being pulled right to the wall. The ohm doing the ripping, rather than their body, would I expect greatly increase the chance they might survive and hold the rope. 

Hi Neil, please see my reply to Steve. This is one of the more interesting posts of late.

Yes, it’s fine for this. You have to be aware that if you unclip the ohm from the wall bolt when they’re lowering you off then you suddenly become heavier! Maybe not a problem at the wall for 3m, but for lowering off sport with high 1st bolts or easy ground I unclip the ohm from the bolt and then clip it into my belay loop. It then continues to work until the heavy guy’s feet are on the ground.

I often climb with people a lot lighter than me and have taken leader falls that have pulled them up the cliff a bit but it’s not been too serious because the resistance has been enough to prevent them being lifted too high. So we’re back to the point if your partner is really so light and there are no ground anchors then you shouldn’t expect them to hold you. Using an OHM for trad climbing isn’t the answer as although very hypothetical and would probably never happen sooner or later it will happen to some numpty and they’ll blame everyone and anyone for the consequences.

I think you are correct but if you think you need an Ohm (without a good multi-directional anchor) then you need to be employing ground anchors which would make the Ohm semi- redundant.

Ground anchors?

You're in Bath, I'm basically in Bath, do you want to borrow mine to have a play? Maybe it'll help you understand how it works? At the end of the day, it will work if you have a solid anchor, good for an upward/outward pull. If you can arrange that then it's on. If not, there's no point as it won't work...

Thanks Mike. We have one at the local wall, so I'll play with that. I'll attach it with some 2mm cord to a bolt and see what happens to it and a light second!

My thoughts are basically,

1. As always a weight miss match is to be taken more seriously than it often is.

2. If the forces are likely to be minor then it isn't likely to be be so serious, so slabs and small fall factors should be okay.

3. Deploy ground anchors and consider assisted devices or auto locking ones. Which might slightly increase forces, but which might not fail given the potential trauma the second experiences.

4. If you can get a good horizontal cam or equivalent in as the first piece, you could consider clipping your ohm in. But buyer beware. 

At the risk of further digressing from the OPs original post (sorry John), I've been making a bit of a study of ground anchors. 

I wanted to see what really happens with light seconds and reasonable lead falls, as although this is in the text books, I hadn't seen real falls with the system - where the system played a pivotable role as it would with a high fall factor. In part this was inspired by things not being as obvious as somethings thought, like common 3:1 pulley systems being more efficient in climbing situations than 2:1's. They are worse.

Things I learnt. (1) often the ground anchor is some way from the base of the cliff, and almost never close where a light second really should be so all their weight can come into play . This either leaves the belayer tethered a long way from the base, or the belayer a long way from the anchor point. The former, kind of goes against the unzippering recommendations, and through effective weight = m x cos(theta), creating an even greater weight difference between the two climbers. If they are placed a long way from the anchor, i.e. under the climber, then when the leader falls they can end up having a quite dramatic ride. Even spinning around the tether like a rag doll. I would suggest many less experienced belayers might find it difficult to focus on holding the brake strand on a plate. (2) looking at the deployment of ground anchors when set up by those under instruction, the lack of anchors right under many route leads to the typical angle of rope between belayer and first piece to be about 45 degrees. Not best for zippering and the second only "weighing" 0.7 of their original weight. (3) If the anchor is right by the feet of the second, the lack of vertical movement (compared to a heavier untethered belayer) can make for a very agressive fall indeed. Or if the tether is loose a very dramatic stop when the tether goes tight. This is not ideal in general. But in this case there is another issue. A light second, often goes with small hands and smaller arms. This can mean the rope slides through the plate more than normal. In my tests 30cm can happen easily with an experienced belayer. This places the hand very close to the plate, increasing the possibility of letting go. (There are some Italian videos out there showing what happens when tethered belayers hold lead falls, it is dramatic.)

This is not in anyway to suggest ground anchors are not a good idea, just that, like much in climbing, when, where and how are important. My personal take is that light belayers might like to consider assisted or automatic devices due to (1) them potentially being thrown around more, (2) hand slippage.

Thanks Ged I'd like to take you up on that, I'll get Tom to drop me your number.

Sounds like a good subject for an academic paper 🤣

Wasn’t Edelrid Ohm the electrician at Castle Gormenghast?

Have you considered loading a rucksack with stuff to act as 'ballast'.

Yep. Done that. Caution is needed if the weight difference large and high fall factor and little friction, e.g. Low on a sports route. If you don't use enough weight, the belayer can be lifted and fly with a sack of rocks towards the wall.

Key isn't to bring them up closer to the weight of the leader. Even if the belayer is the same weight as the leader, they can be lifted, and you don't want that happening with 30 kg of sharp rocks swinging around your ankles. 

There isn't any difference other than it might be more unexpected. So it depends on your attitude to risk.  My view would be that if the weight balance is such that the second would fly up to the point of starting to zip gear out, those two people can't climb together at all unless you had a bombproof placement for an Ohm or a decent ground anchor.  Or if you are willing to accept risk, the leader would perhaps be best off soloing, because at least in that case only one of the pair would be injured if they fell.

I think where we differ is on that risk acceptance.  In short, yes, you are right that the risk posed if the Ohm pulls its gear out is about the same as if one wasn't used in the first place.  But I wouldn't be using an Ohm if it was safe to climb without one, so to me both situations are of equally unacceptable risk.