UKH

Considering a look at DOWH this weekend, but there are three of us... anyone have any thoughts about how feasible that is, space at belays etc? cheers

In reply to ripper:

Perfectly do-able (personal experience).

In reply to ripper:

I've done it as a 3. Chatted to my fellow belayer while watching the seals popping out of the sea. Was actually ok but probably need to be confident with ropework & seconding with a bit of slack etc

In reply to EarlyBird:

Doable and done it on a rope of three back in 1996. And right now I'm sat a couple of miles away on Anglesey reminiscing about my youth.

Top Tip, when you abb down at low tide try not to be the last person to leave the first pitch. I was getting rather nervous as the tide inched closer to my dry feet. And if you can, try to lead the last pitch, as it was one of the best pitches that I have ever lead.

In reply to ripper:

I would normally recommend picking a day when it's low tide in the afternoon so you can do the whole route including the first pitch when the sun has warmed up the rock and dried the grease/condensation off it.

However, this weekend it's low 9:40 on Saturday, 10:40 on Sunday and with the low overnight temperatures there's a high chance of condensation.  Also the starting belay can be rather cramped for three, especially with an encroaching tide, the sea looks to be a bit choppy but no massive swell like last weekend.

So in summary it may be better to forgo the first pitch and make a latish start to enjoy the sunshine, if you're well organised the second man up can get back to the ab point in time to photograph the third man on the photogenic last pitch

In reply to ripper:

Hi ripper

DOWH is easily doable as a 3 and my wee video shows there are reasonable sized belays at the end of each pitch :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt85CzAyBwA&t=4s

Betcha cannot do it using one arm only though... Cheers Dave

In reply to BALD EAGLE:

Thanks Dave that vid was already on my list to watch tonight

In reply to BALD EAGLE:

That photo is pretty spectacular!

In reply to BALD EAGLE:

Nice video, I see that the tide is quite high and (so?) you missed out the first pitch

In reply to BALD EAGLE:

Brilliant video. Great photo. 

In reply to ripper:

Yep ok as a three - the last belay in the concrete chimney is more awkward than you expect but otherwise not a problem

In reply to The Lemming:

also memorable for second/third esp with scant gear placed by leader..

In reply to ripper:

I hope you enjoy my vid and the very best of luck with your day out at the seaside on Dream!

In reply to kevin stephens:

Thanks Kevin yep this was our second attempt at filming our leading man Andrew on Dream. What with our crew coming from all over the country for the shoot, we were all very keen to try and get the route filmed. That day was our only chance with a short weather window and strengthening winds so the Dream Team did the high tide start, missing out the first pitch, which quite a few folks do anyway!

In reply to ripper:

My only concern would be making sure the second/third are adequately protected on the traverse as they'll presumably follow on a single half rope. The third might find it easier as the second could reclip the other rope into gear as they go along instead of removing it. So it depends how confident the second/third are on that sort of terrain.

In reply to pneame:

Cheers pneame!

In reply to magma:

Which is why I bagsied the last pitch. Somebody else can prussic up the rope.

In reply to The Lemming:

In a good blow, that scant gear can be blown out. Rope corkscrewing above our heads... Amongst the sea spray. 
Very atmospheric.. and a little concerning for the 2nd... who became far more of a leader by force

In reply to ripper:

If you want to avoid the seconds having long sideways runouts (which you should, for obvious reasons) either take lots of extenders and clip both ropes to some of the runners on the traverse sections, or else climb it in series (lead on a single rope, second reclips runners for the third on a separate rope). Mind it's a bit of a faff swapping leads on hanging belays with the latter setup if you're not au fait with it.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Also if you climb in series like this you also have the option of putting the least confident one in 2nd position with a belayer on either side to minimise swing potential. I don't know if this is appropriate for this particular route, as I don't know it, but its just another option for the toolbox.

Of course, on a multipitch sea cliff route, you really want all of your party members to be able to operate confidently at that level on lead with grades in hand...

In reply to ripper:

I've done it as a three a couple of times (and perhaps four or five times as a two). Two points. First, you will hold up parties behind you. So best on a weekday (I see you said weekend). But you might be happy with that. There are other options for parties who arrive after you if they see you are a three already ensconced - you can see the whole climb from the top - but they may have turned up just to do Dream, as you will have done.

Secondly, I did it once in a three with two half ropes and became a bit concerned on the last pitch. Everyone is effectively leading there, in terms of fall potential, and, unless you are careful, the rope passes a sharp edge as you turn up to the final stance. I wouldn't really have wanted to see either of my seconds fall on a half rope there, even less if they had needed to prussic to get back on. It's also the case that you need long extenders (ie including possibly a couple of 120cm ones) if you have a single rope on the last pitch, either a single full weight rope for the leader, or single halves for either second, as the best runners are at different heights along the traverse. You do really want to leave all runners clipped for both seconds and avoid any chance of them lifting out.  Taking all that into account, and being fairly cautious, I think I remember taking four (!) half ropes the second time I did it as a threesome. With the ab rope as well that's a hell of a lot of rope to carry up to the climb and ab down with - and loads of potential for knitting at the stances. 

So, all in all, I'd be a bit wary of tackling it as a three again myself. But lots of parties do, as per other posts.

Martin

In reply to Holdtickler:

Yes absolutely, and it is very appropriate on Dream. Though as stated below, it is pretty slow.

In reply to Martin Hore:

This is a really good point. Two chunky singles would be safer.

It's also possible to take a belay in a little recess immediately after the crux step down and so split the final pitch, it's no less comfortable than the other stances on the route (probably better than the Wen crack one), and reduces the grimness of a potential swing (you wouldn't actually fall into space at that point or indeed on most of the traverse - you'd clatter into a slab first, which is worse).

Broadly I agree with you that while it's clearly doable as a three, it's not really ideal.

In reply to Martin Hore: Good points re Queuing, but see my earlier post about the afternoon being best. On a number of visits I’ve seen parties queuing behind each other in the cool and damp morning only for the crag to be empty basking in the late afternoon sunshine on the same day

In reply to Andy Moles:

I think it's irrelevant if all three climbers are totally comfortable at HVS standard (which they should be). The climbing is technically trivial for the grade so they shouldn't be slow if they have grades in hand. My concern with Dream is leaders taking seconds on the route who don't really belong there... that what makes things slow (otherwise congestion with the up lines that cross it) and adds risk. I'd argue that seconding the long final pitch is harder than leading it.

The first time I climbed it was incredibly memorable. The place was rammed but friendly. Then some muppet decided to exit Wen directly (the way the guidebooks at the time said to avoid, due to very loose rock) and sent a large amount of rock down their line and was incredibly lucky to not kill anyone. My partner was belaying not so far away from where the rock dropped but seemed unfazed. We carried on. I led the long final pitch in a breeze, after the adrenaline hit, and it turned out I didn't place enough runners. Unbeknownst to me my partner (a strong climber) didn't want to spoil the experience of working out what to do, so he was deliberately not watching me at all. He got lost where the route drops down a bit and ended up off route, too high, until he realised he was vertically well above the next runner. He managed somehow to get back down to it but was no longer unfazed... his eyes on the exit groove were something to behold. Our pals had watched the whole thing and decided not to climb the route that day.

In reply to Offwidth:

I wouldn't say irrelevant, nor would I say the climbing is trivial. It's sustained and intimidating. Not all the rock is beyond doubt, so the measures I mentioned to protect both seconds should apply even if they have grades in hand. I guided someone along it the other day for whom HVS is his limit, not an uncommon occurrence, so I don't really agree that you need to be 'totally comfortable' either. What you do need is to be able to climb and protect it in a way that is as safe as it can reasonably be without taking forever.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Long quick drawers

In reply to Andy Moles:

We maybe need to agree to disagree as I've climbed many more sustained and technical VS's than that final pitch. It is trivial technicality for someone entirely comfortable at HVS, albeit in an incredible situation. It is possible to split the final pitch to make it much safer for the second, with an intermediate belay at the base of the drop down.

I just think all climbers need to be solid at HVS on Dream and well practised in ascending the rope in case they do slip (it's no place to learn how to prussic). Not every leader is as experienced or familiar with the route as you.... a just about HVS second with you will be at much less risk than someone with a leader of similar experience onsighting.

In reply to Offwidth:

This is exactly what I described, and thought you were saying was irrelevant!

What exactly are you saying is irrelevant?

In reply to Andy Moles:

Apologies for the confusion. The irrelevance I was referring to was the need to be worried overmuch about experienced enough seconds delaying parties behind.

Valkyrie at the Roaches seems to be the route that exposes this combination of onsight leader and second pushing things a bit too much for their experience. You get to witness some almighty clusterf^cks that can force the next people in line to wait a very long time.

In reply to Andy Moles:

yeah, i wasn't totally comfortable at the thought of climbing it as an S/VS bumbler but a more experienced/confident HVS/E1 leader made all the difference. ignorance is bliss on seconding the final (or maybe i had blocked out the consequences of a fall certainly would have second thoughts these days with threads like this

In reply to ripper:

We climbed Dream in 1976 as a 3 and I was in the middle and glad to be so on the last pitch but it was one of the highlights of my climbing life. I do recall sharing a belay with 4 other people on the Wen Crack stance when rules about not sharing placements were stretched.

In reply to ripper:

Guides and instructors take two clients regularly but they know how to avoid rope tangles. If you don’t know how to do that, it will take forever. Whether other people get stuck behind you isn’t really your issue but rope tangles on a traverse will detract from your enjoyment.

Regarding experience, the key thing is for no one to fall off, so experience at HVS and a good head is a good starting point. Guides / instructors will make that judgement call re their clients but they also know how to do a traverse rescue, just in case (which is complicated and time consuming even if you know what you’re doing). If you don’t have those skills and the seconds (and indeed the leader) don’t know how to prussik either, it’s all the more important to be comfortable at the grade.

When I did it, I didn’t have a clue about (self)rescue techniques, which I suspect is not uncommon. However I was getting established at E1 and found the climbing straightforward and hence less of a memorable experience. So perhaps there’s a sweet spot between sufficiently experienced and very comfortable at the grade for maximum enjoyment? That said, these days I enjoy good routes even if they’re easy for me. 

In reply to kevin stephens:

Really, really long…..

I remember looking back on the third pitch to see the 6ft sling I had put on a nut standing up vertically…the nut stayed in but it needed all of the 6 ft extender!

second the advice about it being cold in the morning down there…I was as blue as my top and there were only two of us. 
 

walkie-talkies might help as a three. It’s good for the leader to know whether tight or slack is needed on the final traverse and communication is very tricky there.

Both seconds should of course have means and skill to ascend the rope once they have fallen off the final traverse. It’s not the place to learn….