UKH

Most of us know a route where we don't quite think it lives up to the hype  but are there any where there is a  really serious mismatch between various assessments of quality?

For instance, a route which is given 3 stars in a guidebook which subsequent ascensionists would give none.

( I realise that the reverse is more understandable: a little known route with a modest discoverer might take years for its hidden gem quality to be revealed) 

I can't think of any personally: most *** routes I've done probably earn **at least.

I just wondered if such "Marmite" routes exist.

Demo route at Sennen, what a let down that was!

Edit: and shadow wall on carreg wastad, chossy first pitch and meh second pitch... How it gets three stars is beyond me

Savage Slit (Winter) (V 6)

Great line, but I was a bit underwhelmed by the climbing.

I was rather unimpressed by Truant (VS 4c) at Rhoscolyn, 'A great climb'?? A one-move-wonder imho....

A two-star climb should have some sort of sustained interest, surely?

I think it has been mentioned before, but Extol maybe fits the bill.  I did it years ago - 1979 I think and remember that I didn't enjoy it as much as Hiraeth and Dovedale Grooves, which I did on the same (wonderful summer) day.  Apparently, it has now got very grubby, which puts a few people off, though perhaps adds 'character'.  As a route, I found it impressive, but it didn't feel brilliant (dirty and all heading for the obvious crunch point), which three stars should indicate.  However, I guess these things are very subjective.

Red Wall, Porthclais.

Drove miles to climb this based on a photo in the guidebook that made it look like a long route.

Hence the disappointment.

Disappointed with Demo route?

Surely it’s worth it’s stars for the top pitch?

Sadly - VERY sadly - most examples I can think of are because we've trashed them.

One example would be Vector, but there are loads more where the polish and wear make you sad rather than happy.

The Long climb, Ben Nevis.

I drove miles to enjoy some summer climbing with my youngest daughter in Pembroke and discovered Red Wall as a fantastic piece of climbing. It remains as one of my all time happiest memories even though I seconded it.

I did it as a oner and just wasn't taken by any of it. Yeah it is sorta cool moving onto the slab but I don't think that one move made it into an absolute classic must do route for me. I mean compared to right angle it just doesn't come close in my mind. 

Tbf I think it was over hyped to me to be this amazing route and it didn't quite match the hype so that's probably affecting my judgement. 

While i am at it, the normal route (SW slabs or something along those lines) on the Dent Du Geant. top 50 route which i thought was utterly miserable. would be a different story before the fixed ropes, but its now an utter dassapointment.

The climbing was really good, even the long reach at the start to gain the slab itself.

It was just that the guidebook photo, not dissimilar to your photo, appeared to promise a much longer climb.

I haven’t done Right Angle so can’t comment about how it compares to Demo Route but the photos of it certainly make it look inviting.  

I hadn't seen that guidebook picture but when I did I do agree it makes it look bigger. In response to your other post I can highly recommend Right Angle as an adventure. I met up with an old mate who was on holiday in Cornwall to do it without knowing anything about it. He built it up as a superb route, not only that he handed me the exit pitch which was sublime, thanks Phil. I later read the Mountain article about the area.

I’m not sure why I’ve never gotten around to doing Right Angle but it looks like, given the recommendations on here, that it needs to go near the top of the ‘to do’ list.  

Red Wall is great, done it loads. Look in the Guide Book to see how long it is? Plenty of other fine routes there to make a day of it.

If you did it before cams were available for protection you would perhaps appreciate its boldness for which I think it gets its stars. I was well impressed by it in 1978.

Agreed. The most overrated route in Cornwall. 

You can't not like Red Wall, though I understand the point that if the photos make it look like a full rope length you'll be a bit disappointed.

The route length wasn’t given in the guidebook that I was using.  

Savage Slit is great but the overgrading doesn't help and 4 stars it is not. Then again, is any 50/70m winter route deserving of that?

Pencoed Pillar (HVD)

Not done Extol but I would say Hangover on the same crag is the same, massively disappointed when I did it

Valkeryre (spelt badly)

Tatra

Are 2 climbs that spring to mind as not all that.

Yes, if you could have a route in your back garden it would be a good choice.

Demo Route is a nice climb, but Right Angle is a brilliant adventure - so much better.

Haha, your mum clearly not to be messed with mate! 

absolutely not! You keeping well? We are probably about to disagree about Grooved Arete. I have a great affection for it and have done it loads of times. Did it last year on my own on a day with high winds when the East Face was totally sheltered and the upper part was bathed in sun and thought it still fantastic. You can still smell the pipe tobacco and hear the sound of nailed boots. It is one of the first rock climbs I ever did and this must cloud my judgement somewhat.

James

Taliballan (V 6)

Haven't done Savage Slit but can honestly say Taliballan is 70m of the most absorbing and best winter climbing I've had the pleasure of doing so far, well away from the hustle and bustle and much harder to get in good condition. One of the better contenders for the criteria you've stated I'd say. 

To the OP; I thought Agag's Groove (Summer) (VD) was a bit underwhelming if I'm being honest. 

Yes, very ordinary and undistinguished, on peculiar, not very attractive rock. Ultimately scarcely memorable.

Which Valkyrie do you mean? The one at Froggatt is very good indeed.

It's a weird thing about Tryfan, isn't it? Because apart from the Terrace Wall, the climbing is very indifferent. But the rock is brilliant, the atmosphere so charming, the place so enjoyable, so sweet, that you get to love it. It's like a really nice old friend.

Piton Route: get in the bin.

I can't remember the climbing on Agag's but I'd give it a couple of stars for the position alone, I think.  Similarly with Manx Wall..

It is brilliant summer route at the grade, but not really a natural winter line.

I'd have to disagree about Demo Route.  I think its brilliant.  A combination of climbing styles, perfect rock, exposure, multipitch if you want it.  Absolutely a *** route in my book.

Taliballan has more good climbing than most routes twice the length. There just isn't a dull bit on it.

I don't think Tatra was ever ***, was it ? Its main claim to fame was being 'only VS (ha !)' In an otherwise HVS upwards part of the crag.

Haven't done Taliballan unfortunately but I can well believe it beats Savage Slit. But is it ****?

I totally agree with you about Agags. 

I really can't think of another route of the same style and grade with more good climbing.

It's definitely three stars but modern enough that it hasn't fallen into the great classic status yet, maybe another 10 years will see it get more recognition. Although it is very reliant on good turf so arguably better if it stays more of a hidden gem so that it doesn't get trashed? The long-ish walk in will probably help with that though anyway. Attitudes towards shorter winter routes seem to be changing so the next generation may see fit that 70m routes are entirely deserving of the four star accolade. 

Yes Agag's was okay but not amazing and not four stars, the position was the only thing holding it up but I thought January Jigsaw was better at not much more of a step up in grade.

I'll stick my neck out and add Tophet Wall to the list. I'd seen pictures of climbers on a vast sheet of rock and also had reports from a friend suggesting it was one of the best routes in the Lakes. 

We found a wandering line of average climbing, featuring wobbly belays, and finishing halfway up the crag. Admittedly, when we did it, we'd been climbing solid in the mountains for over a week and felt a little tired. We'd also done Integrity on the Cioch a couple of days before which had probably given us unrealistic expectations of what a 3* HS should be. 

Unlike Agags. I can remember the climbing on Tophet Wall very well and it keeps its *** for me. A real classic.

I feel like a broken record, but these threads come up often enough for me to expunge a little more of my latent frustration (probably pent-up guilt, who knows),

Threadneedle Street (HS)

I'd never backed off a Severe before. Most surprising was that I hated it so much that I backed off a Top 50 severe after actually climbing it (I made the decision sitting in the pit of mud at the belay at the top of the first pitch, then went around and finished it by climbing The Cracks (HS)) because I didn't feel it was even a safe, fun or enjoyable experience for my second. To offer her the respect she deserved, she had already demonstrated remarkable resilience and humour dodging my angry epithets and about six football sized rocks that had just fallen out of the cess-pool of a first pitch as I was climbing it. Slime, mud, shit protection, loose rock, dampness, thuggy, unbalanced and disconnected jug hauling. No thanks.

I really need to move it up the list then! 

I genuinely thought it was!

If dry, the first part of Threadneedle Street is fine, then there is a fantastically exposed move out of the cave and onto the arete which easily makes it a three-star route in my opinion. If you want a true no-star three-star route in Pembroke try Rainbow Bridge https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/mount_sion_east-2566/rainbow_bridg... which is a walk along a ledge for the most part.

Enough people do to make me think I'm probably wrong! 

The phrase "pearls before swine" comes to mind. Especially given that, from the perspective of a being stuck in winter lockdown, every day out climbing this year has assumed a golden glow in my mind.

Valkyrie at Froggatt or The Roaches? Both well worth their stars if you ask me. 

The big 3 on Dove - that was some day! I did 'em one at a time and felt satisfied - rat fed - on each of 'em, particularly Extol which I guess I did not long after you, early 80s. I concede that the rock and climbing can't be described as delightful, nor as hard as Hiraeth or as satisfyingly strenuous as Dovedale Groove, but the atmosphere on a dark, gloomy day! That's what did it for me.

Fool's Paradise (VS 4c)

I haven't checked the latest guide but if it still gives this 3* I'd be surprised. The whole crag deserves a public health warning. It was ricketty in the 1960s and on each subsequent visit, most recently in 2009, it just seems to have got worse.

Jollies Route (HVD)

I remember first arriving in the south west, and searched 'classic low grade multi-pitch climbs.' This one came up (although under a different name at the time - won't get into that]. being close to me, I beelined down there and was utterly disappointed. I can stand a bit of polish, but this really had nothing going for it. Not an obvious line, no feeling of height or exposure - even at the grade, and just generally very forgettable.

edit - thankfully a lot of the other SW search results came up worthy (imo) - Central Groove, Wreckers Slab, Doorpost, Pendulum Chimney to name a few. And dare I say... I enjoyed Demo route

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/space_buttress_pembrokeshire-2251/...

looks great in photos but the climbing I found to be dull and repetitive . 

I much preferred the name Wokes... it's a shame UKC relented.

I wonder how many editorial teams were brave enough to remove all previously published 3 stars from any routes (we did on a few routes that shall remain unspoken about in the Peak).

I’ve done it as it was in the older selected guide but didn’t know the history until we got chatting to the staff in needlesports. It’s missed out in the latest selected guide.

I enjoyed that when I did it, but I seem to recall that there was a rockfall on it a few years ago.

What's the history?

I did this on a cold autumn day around 2003. I thought it was one of the best routes of its grade I had ever done; variety and interest, good positions and don’t remember anything bad at all after the first grubby 30ft. There was also no indication at the time that the final chasmic chimney was about to depart...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/dinas_mot-699/the_cracks-3254

The Cracks on Dinas Mot I thought was pretty average. Nothing wrong with the climb but no particular part really stuck out. It might have been that the climb Oxine, over looking the campsite the night before blew it out of the water. Tons of exposure, a crux move and a round of applause from the watching campsite below might have killed day 2.

Rob, thread about it here. https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/destinations/fool%27s_paradise_borrowdale...

Fools Paradise is still getting raving reviews if you read the logbook comments. I've done it 9 years ago and it still stands out in my memory as one of the best days.

Thanks.

Obviously you didn't meet up with the 'ants'!

I have a soft spot for the Cracks because I did it on my first ever trip to Wales, first ever time I left home without parents, first time I ever had hold of a girl properly etc. etc.

Thats one of only two things I remember about the route. Other being the tottering choss seemingly only held up by tree roots.

My most vivid memory of the day is heat and the fact that my partner (Phil Ralph, who was studying at IM Marsh and was seriously fit) insisted it would be good fun to run on the approach.  He could trot out five minute miles, but I found the whole thing exhausting - certainly not 'fun' in any normal sense of the word.  One or two people we passed were somewhat astounded though!

Of course, I met the ants! I think of them as my old friends now.

No mention of the mossy damp start, the run outs, the ants, and when you make it to the safely through the choss you get to belay with the flying ants.

A 3* adventure for me which was enhanced by introducing my partner to Eccles cakes! 

“One move wonder” is my logbook description of that route.
1 star for the situation as opposed to climbing?