UKH

Just been thinking about climbing etiquette, unwritten/unspoken rules, 'climbing crimes' and important tips for new people:

Are there any you can share? Any experiences you've learnt from?

Anything you know now, that you wished you'd known a lot earlier?

In reply to Jockspotter:

Don't sit at the bottom of a classic gritstone route, eating your sandwiches, not tied into the rope and without your shoes on; then say "we were doing that next" when somebody else starts the route

In reply to Jockspotter:

I'm not going to tell you the unwritten/unspoken rules.

You'll have to learn the hard way, like I did.

In reply to Jockspotter:

Don't take your dog to the crag.

Clean your shoes before climbing.

Don't get on climbs that are three grades too hard for you and pedal the footholds to a high sheen.

In reply to Jockspotter:

Don't shower people with unwanted Beta, only give it if they want it.

In reply to Jockspotter:

Wipe your feet clean before starting up a route/boulder.

Brushing off excess chalk and tick marks when you leave.

Not climbing someone's "closed project" or "cleaned line".

Dry Tooling at dedicated venues only, Not on established trad or sport routes i.e. not Millstone or Kyloe!

In reply to Jockspotter:

People claiming to have "booked" routes or crags. It doesn't work that way.

Top ropes left on routes for extended periods while their owners are off somewhere eating cake or whatever. Please don't do it.

In reply to Jockspotter:

1) Always park in a manner sure to decrease the of number cars that can get parked at the crag. I find that with a bit of effort I can take up three spaces.

2) During the walk-in allow your dog to chase sheep around the hill side, it's good exercise for them.

3) Discard your McDonalds breakfast wrapper during the walk-in, perhaps throw it in a stream.

4) If your dog poos, be sure to bag it and hang it on a bush.

5) On getting to the crag, set up camp under your project.

6) Be sure claim "your" route by stick-clipping the rope into the first bolt before you go off to do your warm-up.

7) Get the sound system cranked up to a level that can be heard back at the car park to discourage anyone else showing up.

8) Take a piss against any classic route you have no intension of doing.

9) Train you dog to be "friendly" with other crag users. Jumping up on them, barking loudly in their face, eating their sandwiches and peeing on their new down jacket always gets a smile.

10) Set up some top ropes on the crag classics for your friends that "might" be coming later.

11) If you can climb the warm-up routes in muddy trainers, do so. Make sure other crag users know that you are finding the warm-up easy.

12) Trowel on a buckets worth of chalk to ensure all the holds are dry on your project.

13) Scream a lot on the route, it works for Adam Ondra, it'll surely work for you.

14) Drop a quick-draw on the people gearing-up at the base of the next route.  That'll teach them that sport climbing isn't safe and helmets should be worn at all times.

15) If abbing off a crag be sure to take no notice of anyone in the line of fire below you. Certainly don't warn them they as you throw the rope down and kick off as many stones as you can find during the descent.

16) At lunchtime, get a good fire going to keep yourself warm. The fire pit is also a good place to discard you beer cans.

17) Later, faff a bit more on the route, commenting loudly for everyone to hear that you only failed to send the route because the guy on the next route put you off with all his breathing and how inconsiderate it was of him to be there.

18) Time to take crap at the crag and head off home.

19) Perhaps key the car door of that guy that annoyed you...

In reply to Jockspotter:

- Good belaying and looking after your partner
- Don't be late or take an age to do simple things, e.g. pack your sack
- Bring enough water and food for yourself, and a bit extra to share if needed
- Don't brag
- Don't patronise (esp. women)
- Be nice

Pretty obvious, really.

If you don't do these things, people mysteriously decide not to keep climbing with you.

In reply to JLS:

Had a bad day recently?

In reply to C Witter:

What you said plus don't impose your own views and standards on others. It is your game, follow your own rules. 

In reply to JLS:

You forgot to mention parking across access gates and swearing at the land owner because, like, you have rights

In reply to Jockspotter:

Try to leave a crag or route in a state whereby the next person there doesn't know you were there earlier.

Being friendly, calm and polite doesn't go amiss.

In reply to Hat Dude:

Surely the best repsonse to that is.."correct you are doing next, when i've finished"  

In reply to C Witter:

+1 for this

Back in the summer, Had a days climbing with 2 mates, one, another experienced climber, the 2nd on his first day outside. Somehow us old hands managed to spill all of our drink early in the morning; fortunately the "newb" had brought 2 large bottles of water and saved the day!

He got extra points when he fixed us with a wry smile and commented "Remind me not to go into a desert with you guys."

In reply to Jockspotter:

On sport routes, if you're leaving your draws in so you can have a rest before having another go, let others climb the route on your draws in the meantime (if they want to)...  It's only polite!

Take everything (other than wee or poo) you arrived with away with you and if you see any rubbish lying around pick it up and take it away with you too.  Bury your poo, take the paper with you.

Be nice to people.

Dogs are welcome.  Even if it's an over excitable staffy who means well but is too friendly for her own good.  I'm sorry about her.  She'll get better.  

In reply to Jockspotter:

Top roping is a practice that should only be used for beginner climbers under 10 years old.

In reply to Jockspotter:

On grid bolted crags, your neighbour sighs and says: "I've miscounted and not brought enough quickdraws!", lean over and hand them a spare. Source: happened this week

In reply to Iamgregp:

You might welcome dogs, other people might not. People will generally tolerate well behaved dogs, but if you can't keep your dog under control and stop it bothering people then please don't bring it along. This is reasonable etiquette, not just in climbing but anywhere public.

In reply to alan moore:

There's nothing wrong with toproping. Who are you to define what is acceptable?

I wouldn't toprope if it was possible to lead, but I wouldn't sneer at someone who did.

In reply to Jockspotter:

Just a bit of thought and be nice to people pretty much covers it.

If you are going to top rope, don't hog routes, and try to stay off classics. Also don't lob ropes / gear / rocks off without checking it's clear first. Sounds obvious, but surprisingly common.

In reply to alan moore:

I'm relieved you got a lot of dislikes for that and that the consensus is still that top roping is still unacceptable at any age.

In reply to Hooo:

I think that is the whole point of the thread!

Possible for whom?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Did you mean "acceptable"at 21.57?

In reply to steveriley:

That was me! And thanks very much I concur.

In reply to Jockspotter:

Don't drop 5-ton boulders on people below

Don't peg your way up cracks at Millstone

Don't do Coronation Street (WW) (E1 5b) on August Bank Holidays

Don't raid other people's stuff for sandwiches if you've forgotten your own

In reply to Tom Valentine:

No

In reply to Robert Durran:

Except if your name is Bob Durran of course, then it’s fine to setup a top rope and wander off for some time while people are queuing for the route...  

In reply to Hooo:

What’s also common is folk just shouting ‘rope’ and chucking it, as if their warning is enough to remove their liability if it hit someone..

In reply to JLS:

I was assuming the thread was about climbing on rock, not training indoors. And I would always give way to people wanting to lead indoors anyway (as I offered to you only yesterday)

In reply to Robert Durran:

Not quite as I remember it but never mind, I was happy enough to wait another 10min. but only just.  

In reply to alan moore:

Thank God you said that! I've been watching this Adam Ondra fellow, and it seems he's been top-roping some climb called 'project' endlessly. And this slap on the heels of that disgraceful Dave McLeod's antics on Rhapsody. I mean, it was only E11 - why didn't he just onsight it like any other self-respecting person would have back in the brief, fuzzily remembered, and probably mythical period of the 1970s, somewhere just after standing in slings had become a faux pas but before that dirty French habit of redpointing started spreading like the clap?! Tut tut.

In reply to JLS & Robert Durrann:

Hahahahahah, falling out about a top rope indoors, now that is funny.

Climbing etiquette - never shit at a crag/climb, in any season - if you must either walk away some distance and do it, or better, bag it and take it out with you

And never sneer at/mock people, no matter the grade, we are all there to enjoy our day, at whatever grade

In reply to Jockspotter:

when in Europe: stick 2 fingers up to the locals, clamber all over/through their ropes, unclipping and stealing any gear as desired. if you see anyone patiently queuing at a stance/belay, be sure to laugh at them as you pass by/over them, and if you want to do a sport route which someone else is already on, just unclip their rope as you clip yours in, its ok, they only need 1 bolt at a time.

In reply to Jockspotter:

Don’t top rope directly off of anchors and brush your tick marks off. I tend to think of these as unspoken good practices but they may need to be mentioned a few more times to get the message home. 

In reply to Jockspotter:

Don’t climb near me. I shit every 2 hours, and always have my dog. He will eat your sandwiches, which is your fault for leaving loose sandwiches out in the wild, I will bang some trip hop on the Bose speaker If your nasal UK Trad climber voice gets annoying, and I fart loudly on every crux. 

Just the way it is. 

In reply to Hooo:

Couldn’t agree more. Our dog has never been out of our control. Nor bothered anyone who hasn’t approached her first. I’ve literally never let her off lead other than when there’s no one else around. Although I know she’s fine I can appreciate many others wouldn’t like a excited staffy bounding over to them.

I’ve only ever taken her to a crag once, and my apologies are intended for the people who came over to say hello to her and she then licks, mouths (she’s young), and puts her muddy paws on! 

 

In reply to Hooo:

You can say that about many things.  Personally, I prefer dogs to kids at the crag, but I'm not about to go around insisting "no children" at the crag.  Just because YOU don't like something doesn't mean you get to tell someone they can't do it.

In reply to JLS:

Comprehensive list.

In reply to JLS:

Almost perfect

you forgot 

Make sure if it's a Saturday that you decide to try that obscure full crag link up traverse that only the local hero has ever done  whilst sweating,swearing and hanging off/clip sticking every bolt as you go for at least an hour

In reply to JLS:

Dude you forgot

20) Bring a drone and a stack of spare batteries. Use it all day being 100% sure belayers can't hear a thing their climbers are saying 

;p

In reply to alan moore:

Jeez! I can't believe there are so many dislikes to your post, you even caught a few who responded. The tongue in your cheek was so large that it was bulging out of the screen. Do you fish by any chance?

In reply to Blanche DuBois:

I didn't tell anyone that they can't bring their dog. I politely requested that they keep their dog under control and prevent it bothering people.

In reply to peppermill:

Triple park your car to use as much parking space as possible. March up to the crag ignoring everyone else. Absolutely avoid all eye contact. (Adopt a shopping mall persona.) Leave farmers' gates open, unlatched. Set up top ropes on a whole section of the crag. Leave them there all day unused. Continually abseil down classic lines to prevent anyone else from climbing them. Only communicate with others (in your team) by mobile phone or by shouting very loudly. Your vocabulary should consist mainly of the following: "I was like", "it was like", "Oh my god", "to be perfectly honest". All children and dogs in your party should be left to roam unattended. Make a video of the entire day with a drone whining back and forth. Play your favorite "music" from a strategically placed boombox at the foot of the crag. (The same music can be used as a monotonous sound track for your boring video.) Record all the above antics with plenty of "selfies". When you are done, race down from the crag. Preferably do this on mountain bikes to damage the path as much as possible. Remember: no eye contact, and leave all gates open. Any rubbish not left at the crag should be jettisoned as you go. When you zoom past other people make sure that they jump out of your way by ringing your bell and shouting "excuse me". When you maneuver your car out of the parking lot, scrape some other cars in the process, if you have not already dinged their sides with your cars' doors.

In reply to Trangia:

Thanks; I think I beat my personal-best!

Do you fish by any chance?

Only by shooting into a barrel, it would appear.

Sorry.

In reply to alan moore:

Well you got me, hook line and sinker.

Damn.

In reply to Hooo:

...or not bring it if they can’t.  

Which is kind of pretty close to telling people they can’t bring their dog, which is what Blanche was picking you up on.

In reply to Iamgregp:

No it's not. Blanche, as is her habit, was replying with an unfounded criticism showing a, presumably willful, misunderstanding of Hooo's post.

In reply to EarlyBird:

Ha! You’re very welcome, it’s nice to be nice

In reply to Iamgregp:

No it isn't. If you are the responsible dog owner that you claim to be and don't let your dog bother people, then I don't see why you'd have a problem with my request. It doesn't apply to you.

The dog owners I know hate the irresponsible dog owners too, because the loose dogs harrass their dog and give dog owners a bad name. 

It's pretty basic etiquette really. If your​ drone / loudspeaker / pet / child won't bother anyone then go ahead and bring it along. If it's going to bother people then don't​.

In reply to Hooo:

Similarly, if you are going to be bothered by other people enjoying themselves, don't go to places other people enjoy. 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

So are you saying that anybody should be free to do anything they like if they get enjoyment from it?

In reply to Hooo:

Fair point, can’t argue with that!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I am saying that if you are easily annoyed by others having the audacity to enjoy themselves along with their pets, children, drones, whatever, then there are places best avoided. 

A popular roadside crag with a comfy base will likely attract all three. If not being upset by these things is important to you, don't go there. 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

Really? You really have a problem with that concept? Or you're just looking for an argument. Either way, I'm not wasting my time.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

So next time folk decide to have a weekend Rave at Lawrencefield (or your local crag) or travellers decide to make their home at Horseshoe (or your local crag) just move along?

In reply to Presley Whippet: It's not just climbing etiquette is it, though? Out of control dogs, noisy music, unruly children, intrusive drones all destroy the peace of the countryside. You sound a bit defensive, as if you are guilty of these things. 

In reply to John Stainforth:

Hear, Hear.

Yours,

30 in body, 60 in mind

In reply to Presley Whippet:

I’ve been confronted by dogs 3 times in the past 2 months. Genuinely worried on two occasions, left me shaking, the third time I was bitten and I’ll have the scar for sometime.

First time a Doberman cross chased me and caught up with me whilst cycling. Really scary. Luckily just wanted to chase and bark agressively.

Second time surrounded by a pack of 12/14 dogs with a Ridgeback barking REALLY aggressively.(“professional” dog walker with all dogs off the lead)

Third time Cocker Spaniel chased after me whilst running and bit the back of calf.

I’m left bemused by the owners responses.”yeah, he likes to chase bikes” “ he’s only young”

it really isn’t acceptable owning a dog unless you control it.

In reply to kevin stephens:

I think 150 people enjoying themselves at a one off rave trumps you being pissed off you can’t climb there for the 19th Sunday in a row. 

In reply to Donotello:

I’ll message you after the next rave so you can drive up and do the clean up afterwards

In reply to Wimlands:

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public

In reply to Pekkie:

Cheers for the accusation. 

Full disclosure, 3 dogs no kids, no drone. 

I do not take my dogs to the crag, one is too old, one is too radge and the third is too cute. 

There are those who are not satisfied with their day unless they have had something to complain about. Along with dogs, kids, drones and other annoyances, they must be tolerated too. 

In reply to Wimlands:

Best to stop running, turn and make strong eye contact with the dog. By continuing to run away, as the dog perceives it, you are encouraging the chase/hunt behaviour.

Being bitten is not OK and I'm not excusing the dog or its owner, just making what's intended to be a positive suggestion.

In reply to Dogwatch:

Not disputing the point about running but I always thought that making eye contact with an aggressive dog was a bad idea.

In reply to Dogwatch:

FTFY

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Eye contact with dogs is about dominance. What you want to convey in this situation is "Don't mess with me". I would say in this situation, make eye contact, shout and point. This is a cocker spaniel in a chase game that it has taken too far. It should not take all that much to make it think "Mistake, back off!".

If you've got a dog that is attacking you in a serious way intended to properly hurt, then yes, making eye contact is probably not what you want to do. 

Btw I used to train people to train their dogs and sometimes that involved my handling the dogs. I did get bitten once in the process, just a warning nip but enough to break the skin. That owner didn't apologise to me either, their dog could do no wrong. It wasn't why I stopped training, that's another story.

In reply to Dogwatch:

A well aimed rock can be effective.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Rocks are often bandied around as a solution to the dog and drone issue. Perhaps they could also be effectively used against children and grumpy climbers too. 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

Are you willfully trying to misinterpret what people are saying? I haven't seen anyone saying they have a problem with dogs, only with dogs that are out of control.

Does this not seem like a reasonable position to take?

In reply to Dogwatch:

I know....I slowed right down, looked at it to stop it approaching, them jogged past. Misjudged it.

It then chased me as you said...bit back of the calf, only a minor break of the skin but the combination of my sweat and a high heart rate made for an impressive show of blood.

Not that the owners were that bothered.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

No, I think a thrown rock is only justified to ward off a direct physical threat from an animal (or person). And probably against inanimate objects such as speakers or drones if sufficient provocation.

In reply to Hat Dude:

Ah but you’d get plenty more kudos for not drinking all day and telling the  beginner that they were carrying unnecessary weight by bringing too much water.

In reply to Blanche DuBois:

Out of control / noisy dogs or kids are a nuisance though and potentially a safety issue. It’s common decency for dog owners / parents to keep things in check or not take the dogs / kids to the crag in the first place if they can’t control the situation. Most dogs and kids are fine though. Extending your logic, is it ok to shit at the crag, play loud music, continually swear loudly and so on? 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

So if someone decides to knock one out at Stanage Popular to make sure they really enjoy their day, that’s ok?

In reply to Misha:

As long as it's on lead. Top toping w***ers are apparently not welcome.

In reply to Jockspotter:

asking people if they're climbing a route (basically asking you to move aside as if they're going to start climbing) to then sit in the area you were organising your gear and then eat lunch and not climb anything for half an hour....

In reply to Jockspotter:

put your stuff your not using in your sack, keeps it tidy and you dont lose things as easy.

In reply to Jockspotter:

If you are setting up an abseil above the most popular climb at a venue known for being loose, with climbers visibly queuing at the base don't be surprised when people call you a bender when you drop stones on them. They are entitled to hold that opinion of you when one of your rocks caused a head injury to their mate, despite helmet being worn.

In reply to JohnBson:

"Bender?"

It's 2019.