UKH

Genuine Question...

Seeing a lot of climbing coaches/instructors starting to advertise on things like Facebook etc and was wondering if these people are governed by things like public liability insurance or is it the new need to be a member of BMC to cover oneself in case the "coach" drops them?

Is insurance covered by the coach?

Freelance instructors generally have their own liability insurance.  Howden do a policy in conjunction with the MTA that's pretty cheap - last year's was £143 for all in-remit work.

Definitely something to ask them before hiring them. Every time

I've been a self employed climbing & mountaineering instructor since 2007 ish, in all that time not one single person has asked to see my insurance, I don't think anyone has even asked if I am insured, although it does state I am on my website.

Prior to that working for centres and other people, it was only ever schools and similar organisations who checked.

I do of course have insurance!

As far as I'm aware there is no legal requirement to be insured to operate as a coach and / or instructor. Many will have insurance and any sensible instructor with a conscience and assets will definitely have it.

I've been working as an outdoor instructor since around 2006 and have had insurance the whole time, but rarely am I asked to produce evidence of it, maybe 3 or 4 times a year.

Yes insurance should be covered by the coach if you're paying them for a service. Have that conversation before booking if you're at all concerned.

I've been climbing longer than I can remember, however I thought I would highlight this as I am seeing a lot of self employed "coaches" offering services now.

I wondered how many others are asking the same question? If it were me, I'd want to know. Trusting a qualified person with your life,you'd want to know your covered if they drop you!

I am surprised that no-one would ask you before booking you.

You would yes. Would want to be highly certain there would be no dropping involved in the day. I've been dropped twice (thankfully only fairly short) and both were qualified climbing instructors.

Any well qualified instructor who does regular freelance will have insurance. Look for Association of Mountaineering Instructor (AMI) members and you'll know that your getting a top instructor who holds sensible insurance for whatever activities your doing.

I have also seen people offering 'coaching' for climbing, or climbed related personal training. Several of these people don't hold a formal qualification to instruct climbing or mountaineering. They might be really good at it and they might be covered under other insurance for personal trainers or similar, but I would be looking for a Mountain Training qualified individual to guarantee getting a good instructor.

As someone who has put thousands of pounds and who knows how many hours into gaining the higher Mountain Training awards, it does irritate me when I see people posting about 'training for climbing' where the coach doesn't hold a certificate. But I guess thats the free market and it's up to customers to check what they are getting.

I can see what you mean. Seems to be a flurry of them at the moment that profess to know what they are on about. Hence my post, maybe to raise the issue of insurance for new climbers to have at the back of their minds. If I were to move on to something like Ice Climbing I'd want to know the instructor was properly insured to cover me.

Good point on the AMI bit. Not sure why your comment got voted down.

Your point about insurance is part of a bigger issue. As Jez says I've worked as a Mountaineering Instructor for even longer and held insurance at all times and never been asked by a private outdoor customer for proof of my insurance OR qualification. The Mountain Training qualification system can appear quite complex to the public and is therefore poorly understood. Holding a MT Qualification is a really good benchmark of technical competence. Being a member of the Association of Mountaineering Instructors or Mountain Training Association brings with it a level of assurance that the member stays up to date by staying in touch with their peers and changes in practise and undertakes an amount of CPD. Personal recommendations from other people are a good measure of assurance that the person gives a good day out, is friendly and provides an enjoyable experience. Unfortunately of that 3 people rely mostly on the latter assuming it also means the person hired was technically competent and 'current' but often the customer recommending the person they hired isn't well placed to judge that. Qualification+Association membership+Personal recommendation is a strong way to choose a coach, instructor or guide. Then check to see they are also Insured (if they meet the first three its very unlikely they wont be).

Surely this last element depends somewhat on the context of the service provided - "training" is a wide term. If I'm paying someone to take me outdoors for my first climb or to improve my abilities to operate safely (e.g. rope work, gear, transition from single to multi pitch etc) then yes, you want someone far up the MT tree. 

Conversely, if I'm after some training to understand why I can't get up 7B, then I don't care a jot about whether the person is an MIA (or whatever the contemporary acronym is), I care that they have the knowledge to identify why I'm crap at climbing. Often such sessions (in my experience) are done indoors, on boulders anyway, and the safety aspect of the coach is somewhat removed as its presumed that the person being coached already has these competencies and is responsible for themselves.  

In short, I think it's important to consider what the service being offered actually is, which may not always be clear. A good MT-style instructor may well not be a good coach, and vice versa... (although of course you can be both!)

Good points about training methods over climbing competency pertaining to the different disciplines. I suppose one can be a good coach without the need for instruction.

Maybe it should be a forced requirement that if you class yourself as competent to lead,coach or instruct others, you have the relevant cover just in case. People put their trust in you.

I put my trust in a driving instructor once without seeing his insurance as it was assumed he had it. Maybe highlighting this might make more people ask first.

Good points! Just because someone is good at their job, doesn't necessarily mean they are cleared to do it

Broadly I agree but MT does have coaching specific qualifications that can help benchmark assurance on coaching knowledge, competence and experience in the same way that the older Awards assure a level of technical ability.

I do agree with you here, but it's quite a specific case. I'm sure theres plenty of WMCIs who can't boulder 7B but could have a good stab at telling you why you can't.

But if you're looking for really specific high level training on the physical side of climbing I do agree that some people who don't hold an MTA award might be able to provide really specific high level input for high performance coaching.  

Interestingly, as a freelancer, I quite often get asked to show my insurance when sub-contracting climbing and mountaineering jobs for other people, but private clients who book direct never ask to see it.

Thing is, with that rule you've just closed most climbing clubs.  Most people 'instructing' new members to climb don't hold MT tickets, and getting insurance without the ticket is not easy.

Maybe this needs to be governed in the same way other sports are. I'd like to know that if I put my trust in someone to teach me, they are correctly covered and trained to do so. Especially if I am paying them.

Why? If we saw ongoing carnage at Windgather and Tryfan Bach as a result of unqualified instruction, I'd see your point - but we don't.

Then look their quals and insurance up. It's all there on the MTA website. If they lie about these then I agree they should have the book thrown at them.

I concede that there could be a point to making it mandatory to have liability insurance if one is taking payment. That would at least prevent the rule from effectively closing down all the climbing clubs. But insurance insists on qualifications (or at least is prohibitively expensive without them) and qualifications are only one way to demonstrate competency.  This has always been a slightly anarchic sport and I don't think many climbers would want to see us heading towards the way that diving, for example, is regulated.

As an extreme example, I don't believe Johnny Dawes holds any qualifications, but he's a very good coach... 

Yes, it's quite a specific case but I did pick a grade out of thin air! What I was trying to distinguish between is performance-related coaching and technical skills coaching, with the latter presuming you already have the skills to keep yourself safe in the controlled environment in which they commonly operate. My perception is that performance-based coaches are targeted at those working in the higher grades, but of course there is some trickle down to those at lower grades. Of course an MT qualified person could coach performance at this level... but. Say you want an hour or two of 1-1 coaching to improve your performance only, do you book a) the wall staff/person advertising on a poster at the wall or b) go out of your way to find an MT qualified person? Chances are option B will be more expensive.

I know that there is an MT coaching pathway but I'm not sure how well this has been taken up? I looked into it when I was freelancing more regularly a few years back (as an MLS and SPA/RCI) but never followed it up. Partly because as a freelancer focussed mainly on getting people outside I never had the logbook-specific experience of training others for performance, and partly because I couldn't be bothered to do the fundamentals which are a prerequisite. The latter component for me was the real barrier, I didn't really want to spend a few hundred pounds for what are reportedly quite tedious and not especially helpful courses (heard this via friends who had done them). Gone a little off tangent here anyway...

Same experience. When subcontracting I've ned to show all the paperwork, to individual clients I've never been asked.

That is covered by the BMC insurance for an affiliated club, provided there is no payment involved.

Crikey - I'd forgotten about that!  Need more coffee.

I still disagree with the OP's position that all instruction should have insurance mandated, though.  It's outlawing someone (who isn't a BMC member) from showing their friend how to belay.

Interesting example.

In that hypothetical example, what you'd actually get in reality from many (although not all) "coaches", including some who are officially qualified, is actually very superficial. I rarely see any coaching worthy of the description and that includes from some high profile individuals. 

What clients very often get is a super positive cheerleader/belayer/spotter, good route/bloc recommendations and loads of pretty helpful beta.

For most climbers, especially those being held back by psychological barriers, that is often enough to let them make some progress in chasing grades, hence lots of clients tend to be super happy with the "coaching" they've received, despite the fact that little "coaching" was ever involved. 

Perhaps the bigger issue is not whether climbing coaches are insured or not, but that whilst many of them are great training partners, a good fraction aren't actually that amazing as coaches? 

There's definitely progress happening, partly driven by the qualification framework and partly by those in the industry with high-level coaching experience from other sports. But as AlH says, the industry revolves around customer recommendations and plenty of people seem very content with whatever they are currently paying for... 

I'm not talking about friends showing friends though. I'm talking about people actively going about selling services without the necessary cover. I wouldn't take driving lessons from an instructor without knowing he was correctly trained and had the right levels of car insurance, just as i wouldn't have a plumber that wasn't corgi registered play with my boiler.

There are lots of people out there calling themselves instructors and coaches with a wide range of qualifications, remits and experience, and with that comes range of quality for that instruction and coaching, and no its not all equal. Just like teachers in a school you would like to think every teaching is outstanding but odd's are they aren't. so if you have something specific like getting to 7b then you its worth taking the time to find the right person to do that. its not just going to an AMI member (although i do know if you went to an AMI member and they didn't feel they where the right person they would know who was and pass it on), or just a poster in a wall, you need to do some digging and ask questions.

You do see this a lot of this and your right its not coaching and should be called out as such, but its starting to change. There are a lot of very experienced coaches out there doing some great work, that are helping climbers improve and get more from their climbing, coaching movement skills, coaching the head game or helping with physical training etc. If done right it can be a massive help. But it's sometime hard for people who want help to improve to know where to look, its important to ask around and find the right coach, Most people wouldn't get a trades person in without recommendation and asking questions of how it was going to work, should do the same for an instructor or coach.

It would be pretty inadvisable to be giving any sort of instruction / coaching without insurance in place - if someone were seriously injured and the coach found even partially liable it would could be ruinous. I would imagine the easiest way to get insurance is to have a relevant qualification. From what I've seen, most coaches either have a lower (CWA/SPA) qualification to cover basic working in the environment, or work through a climbing wall, which is presumably covered by their procedures and insurance, or work in partnership with someone who is qualified. That said, I've seen coaches with no apparent formal qualifications offering things like Kalymnos development weeks so I'd be interested to know if they have any insurance.

Beyond that, I've seen people offering courses when they've failed the appropriate qualification!

As others have said there is, unfortunately, no legal requirement for an instructor/coach/guide to hold a formal qualification, have insurance cover, be current or even competent in their activity. In most other European countries this would be illegal. 
 

The net result is that it’s grossly unfair, particularly on customers, who are largely unaware, but also those qualified professionals. Occasionally it’s dangerous. There has been one Fatal Accident Inquiry in recent years, a judgement was published and made some recommendations but no authority took it up  largely because there is no specific legal framework, it would have to be established.   

Fortunately the vast majority of operators engage with the long established system of certification and professional association, but, there are an increasing number of enthusiasts running businesses based on a large social media following. Those operators usually don’t respond well to suggestions. The term cognitive dissonance springs to mind. Those clients will mostly have a good time, in a nice place and with a nice person, but be unaware of what they didn’t get for their money or what nearly happened but didn’t. And sometimes they are. 
 

Mountaineering Scotland published a really useful  balanced article on hiring mountaineering or coaching services:

https://www.mountaineering.scot/safety-and-skills/essential-skills/choosing...