UKH

Today we went climbing with our dear friend Bilbo (mike Lawrence) down at rhoscolyn. Just before he set off to second a route he mentioned how he found it hard avoiding the chalked holds on foil yesterday. I was a bit confused for a second by what he meant, and then I noticed he didn’t have a chalk bag. “Bilbo!” I exclaimed, “are you part of the clean hand gang? I can’t believe I’ve never noticed you don’t carry a chalk bag”. It turns out he is, and is still flying the flag strong! Keeping the traditional British ethics alive. He admits to once using some on a pitch in the Yosemite. I asked how it felt, and he actually said it definitely made it easier. But he has managed to abstain from using chalk for his entire climbing career (probably why he is still chumming around on vs’s I joke, he competently followed us up an e2, e3 and e4 today without chalk as I rained chalked down on him). 
 

Is there anyone else out there or is bilbo the last of a dying breed ? Are they exercising a pointless ethic? Bilbo says following a route someone has climbed with chalk is easier. We contest to this, and actively scour ukc top ascents for hard ish routes that will be nicely chalked up for us 😂- shameful behaviour I know, but you’ve got to take what you can get. 
 

anyway full respect to old bilbo. He is a true believer and also tries to climb at 10 new crags a year, and has done around 100 routes at cloggy. 

I would say that as we are constantly trying to improve ethics/style of ascent, then we should actively be trying to use less chalk.

Whenever people get puritanical about chalk, I'd like them to remember that everyone's bodies are different. Some people don't sweat much. Others do - a lot! - especially through the palms of the hands. It's not strictly correlated by gender or any other variable I've been able to notice. So, well done if you "don't need chalk", but we're not all made equal and those of us with sweaty hands will carry on using chalk, ta.

Of course, using chalk and plastering the holds with chalk are different things...

It's bound to be partly down to physiology, some people have sweaty hands and others less so although I'm sure we could all try to use less chalk. 

Edit: beaten to it!

Good point. I've never seen Prince Andrew wearing a chalk bag.

Nobody gets sweatier palms than me. All my guidebooks are stained brown just from reading them at home on the sofa.

But I'm sure most chalk-dipping, at most peoples grades is just nervous, habitual dummy-sucking. We've all done it, one more quick dip before you go for it (caking the holds up even more).

When I'm relaxed and going well, I forget about chalk and just watch my feet. Like others have said, it's worth the effort of asking yourself 'do I really need another dip right now?'

Me.

I'll use chalk inside, but not outdoors. Take nothing but photos, leave nothing but footprints.

Steve

Which is an aspiration rather than a reality for all of us.

Thanks ! My post was aimed to find out if there were any other gang members still going like bilbo, maybe so he can make more friends !!!

funny you should say that about inside vs outside. My partner doesn’t use chalk indoors because he finds you can chalk up on the holds there is so much haha. But will use it outside. 

Take nothing but photos, leave nothing but footprints, spout nothing but aphorisms...

Do you wee in a bottle and carry it down with you?

I don’t use chalk and don’t really feel the need to, I don’t climb hard though. Perhaps I have been lucky always climbing in reasonable conditions as I can only think of one or two routes where I have found myself wiping my hands before committing to the crux. 
Indoors I always find everyone else has used enough previously so I never need any there either. 
My friends hate the fact I don’t use chalk. I have always told myself that if I ever started struggling at a grade then chalk may provide a solution, but I’d rather do without and improve technique first. 
So far I haven’t reached that limit. 
Not sure I’d want to climb much past E1 anyway, I like my legs/ankles too much. 

I do find that seconding someone who has used chalk takes a small element of the adventure away from a climb. But fully understand and accept friends preferring to use it. 
 

JRJG 

Chalk? Pah, how uncivilised- I much prefer pof!

It’s strange your friends hate it. I had nothing but respect and admiration when I realised what bilbo was! I immediately took my chalk bag off and left it at the bottom as we both followed up savage sunbird. 

One time I forgot my chalk bag I strugglrd to second a route two grades below my then leading grade. If chalk were somehow banned I might possibly stop climbing - it would just feel so insecure and unenjoyable.

How did all those routes get done before chalk was adopted, routes up to E5/E6 and on all rock types.

And yes I use it. 

I quit using chalk after climbing a soaking wet route at Avon gorge after getting caught in the rain during the second pitch and discovering the friction of wet limestone was more than adequate. I found  that sweaty hands were not a problem as long as I was very careful to avoid touching my face, arms or anywhere else where the skin secretes it’s natural oils, which do greatly reduce friction. Soap and water are all I need to keep my skin good when climbing indoors, outdoors I pack a small towel and a bottle of Muc-Off dry shower to degrease my hands.

Talent and with those without sweaty hands having an additional advantage presumably.

.

An honourable mention for buxtoncoffeelover of this parish . I've climbed with him regularly for the last 6 years or so, he's done over a 1000 routes per year all chalkless, mainly below E1 , but a fine effort nonetheless.

I've never used chalk in 45 years of climbing (max grade of low Es), but my hands don't really sweat. Added to that would be reluctance to let go of a hold just to chalk up on a tough crux sequence - better to keep moving!! If the climbing is easy, then nothing is to be gained. I do think a lot of chalking is habitual. One partner calls his chalkbag a 'psychological crutch'. When asked by partners, I say that I'm not a good enough climber to need chalk, & I'm too scared to let go when the climbing is hard!!

How about chalk balls, which are gauze balls filled with chalk, as a compromise? That's what I used for years. These release enough chalk to take the sweat off one's fingers, but not enough to transfer much to the rock.

I hardly ever use it indoors (the holds are too chalked up as it is) and sometimes don’t use it outdoors either. If I do use it, it’s chalk balls - loose chalk is just crazy!

The average max temps in the region I climb have been 39.8°c in August  Think I'll stick with the chalk

(Failing that might try suckers attached to hands and feet).

I like chalk balls because of the even coverage they give, I hadn't really considered that they'd lead to less chalk being transferred to the rock.

Environmentally speaking chalk is one of the climbing impacts I'm least worried about.

Ethically speaking I'm not sure a chalk free ascent is purer or better in some way. It's just a bit harder, how much harder depending mostly on physiology. That's also a bit of a rabbit hole, if we're going down the route of saying making it harder for yourself=purer or better style where do you stop with that? Nobody wants to see my naked, shoeless chalk free solo of Little Chamonix.

I can only get enough chalk out of a chalk ball to chalk up if I bash it between both hands. This is quite hard to do on steep ground. On the few occasions they have been all I could buy, U have just cut them open and out the chalk in my chalk bag.

I can't say I'm an activist, but I try to use as little chalk as possible, as infrequently as possible, and only when I'm having an actual sweaty hand problem. Something we should all aspire to within the limitations of our unique physiology, I think.

Chalk use often seems to be a psychological crutch — a habit that people do when they're scared or when the move isn't a foregone conclusion. And some seem to be in the habit of dipping their hand in their chalk bag or groping their chalk ball and climbing on — without getting rid of the excess. Which if anything will (surely) make the moves harder, not easier, and results in holds being caked in chalk and the moves becoming harder for everyone.

As with most white powders, I think responsible use is important.

Edit: I'm also a very puntery punter, and sweaty hands are less of a problem when you're pulling on relatively massive jugs!

Am I the only climber who thinks chalk is more about psychology than sweat.  I found dipping a hand in a chalk bag quite calming.  It's also reaffirming as you stand there pumped thinking your arms are going to explode but buy some miracle manage to take a hand off and have a dip.

Al

You speak of this as if it were a bad thing.

Which unfortunately applies to most people.....which why so many routes start to look awful.

I can't say I never used chalk, but I tried to avoid it as much as possible, and where I was repeating a climb that I had done maybe 40 years ago clean (ie without chalk) then I would either do it clean or not do it at all.

Case in point, The Black Diamond hot forge heated chalked bag, that wasn't actually an April fool. Surely if  hands are cold enough to need heating, they aren't sweating?

I do think it is a bad thing. I think any nervous habit is a bad thing, because it implies to me not being in full control of one's faculties or not making rational decisions. If you're getting pumped senseless but your hands are perfectly dry, why take a hand off to take a dip in the chalk bag? It falls into the same category, for me, as placing gear out of irrational fear and not out of any rational appraisal of the risk. If the fall is safe and the gear is bomber, why dick about placing gear every 50cm to have a rope above you? If your hands are dry, why dick about chalking them?

It also has the added effect, often, of leaving a ladder of white holds up a route. Which I also think is a bad thing.

It's a personal thing, obviously, but I get a lot of satisfaction out of controlling irrational behaviour in stressful situations.

Nice one!

Maybe "gooberman hill" drinks the piss instead, Bear Grylls style!

Why is dipping your hand in a chalk bag irrational if it calms you? How do you control your irrational situations? I hate to break this to you but climbing itself is irrational.

I agree that a chalk trail is a bad thing.

If I'm bouldering, repeating the same move again and again, I must confess that some chalk begins to stick to the holds. But, the other day I did a VS route in the Lakes with my girlfriend and we noticed immediately that a previous climber seemed to have deliberately highlighted every hold with chalk. Particularly at the bottom, where there's a slightly tough section getting off the ground, the holds were covered in chalk. I've never left a trad route looking remotely like that - not even on a hot day. In my mind, this wasn't because the climber had used chalk to keep their fingers and palms dry; it was because chalk was being used to identify holds. These are entirely distinct practices.

 

I'm typically inconsistent. I'll warm up at the wall with the bag still shut and it can often stay shut rising up the grades. Indoor holds are typically better and more positive than you'd use outside, problems tend to be more about 'am I strong enough' - the walls can't risk people tweaking things with nasty marginal holds. Once I'm going, I'm as overchalked as the next person though.

Outside I'll huff and puff cleaning boulder problems, sighing inwardly about overuse. Then I'll dab a marginal foothold to help spot from above and not clean it off afterwards. Basking in the glory of the mighty 6A ascent.

I'm regularly appalled (disgusted of Millhouses...) by the amount of chalk left on boulders around the Peak, especially after a nice weekend. Often no effort is made to clean up after themselves at all. Spoken as someone who uses a lot of chalk on Peak boulders, but endeavours to give it a good brush too. My brother in law describes me as a prolific brusher with the occasional climbing habit...

Anyway, my favourite chalk trail was up Fiesta de los Biceps. You can see the route from miles away and you certainly can't get lost once you're on it.

It's irrational because chalking your hands when they don't need chalking is, by definition, irrational. It's bad because on rock, and especially over time, and especially with people who don't bother to blow the excess chalk off, it will translate to a chalk trail.

Like I said, it's a personal thing. I'm not judging anyone for being in that habit (until they cause the aforementioned chalk trails that is). Whatever works. But I definitely don't think that it's a good thing.

Many people use rituals (and chalking up is definitely a bit of a ritual) as part of their preparation for and execution of stressful or difficult activities. It seems to work quite well for many people. The rituals themselves might seem irrational but the outcome is anything but.

I'm a clean hander, and yes people using chalk does make it easier, for me on a route.

It also makes things less enjoyable for me, I like the challenge of finding holds, if you climb a route where most people use chalk, it's all mapped out for you, like a climbing wall.

I wipe my hands on my shorts or shirt if they're sweaty.

We once had a completion at our local wall, see how far up you could get "no hands", people were still chalking up before and during!!

Chalk is often a comforter, like a dummy for a baby

I'd rather boulderers use less chalk on popular peak problems but the more serious problem by far is over-brushing, so I'd rather people stop brushing chalk off any surface damaged problems, rain will clear it off eventually. I'm pretty sure most of the damage we see on grit boulders is down to over-brushing (which tends to be on aretes, lips and pockets where it will wash off), followed by climbing without clean shoes.  If I could wish for one big change on popular Peak grit boulders, it would be that boulderers stopped using brushes on any surface damaged rock. The message on cleaning shoes seems to be getting through.

Back on subject I agree with the physiology point and on chalk being very useful at one's limits if sweat is an issue. I certainly don''t need chalk indoors until close to my limit as holds are usually caked in it. Outdoors on trad, things are more variable: I have popped off stuff in the past from applying an arbitrary grade to avoid chalk, in sweaty conditions... it's not worth the extra risk. I can't climb as calmly and confidently if I'm second guessing friction. I also find chalking the back of my hands improves style and reduces skin damage from jamming...anyone else find that?

A pre-chalk 'old-school' trick is to rub some dry soil or sand to remove sweat from hands.

One of my first climbing partners had decades of experience under his belt when I met him, and as a fairly new climber I took my cue from him if we were outdoors. We racked up at the base of Idwal Slabs for a climb one evening in 2008 and I produced a chalk bag with a brand new chalk ball inside it. Jack looked at it in disgust and said put it away, you don't need chalk outdoors. So I did, and haven't used chalk to climb since then, although I think it's more of an unconscious choice than a conscious one and certainly not an ethic for me. Every now and then a climbing partner will ask if I've forgotten my chalk bag and they get to hear the story of Jack telling me to put away my chalk

If you never use chalk it probably means you are not climbing at your limit where hand friction is key. That's your choice but not many would make it. Even Pat used chalk in the end on things that were hard for him.

Is it OK to carry paper tissues to dry your fingers?  We once followed Ben and Marion Wintringham (famous Clean Hand Gang members) up a route at Handegg.  When Marion got a particularly tricky bit she pulled a tissue out of her pocket, carefully dried her fingers, replaced the tissue and then did the move.  I, rather awkwardly, tried to make a point of dipping a bit less often.

Easy to say if you only plod up easy stuff.  Try thin 7b limestone in 30+ °c and get back to me.

Probably a dry equivalent of hand gel, doing a good job removing viruses etc, if only mechanically.

easy to say when you're doing feet only and people are still putting chalk on.

Maybe they're happy with that? I'm not sure hand friction is the key, I'm pretty sure technique and balance are more useful. (I have neither).

"Aid on every move" someone once said. I don't want to aid climb, so I'm more than happy to sacrifice a 7b+ for a 7a+ and not bother.

Cheap lager has never been my thing

Steve

Fair enough for sport but you don''t want to be pinging unexpectedly off a boldish trad climb and if anything things are more serious at lower grades as you tend to hit things like ledges in a fall. Pat's old moto was you didn't need chalk below E3, which given his talent might equate to VD or less for a bumbly. Go climb something like Leaning Buttress Indirect on a warm day and see if you think hand-hold friction isn't sometimes important for a low grade leader.

Have you seen the odd phenomenon of people chalking their shoes? Now that is strange!

Last Saturday I did one of the most classic mountain VDiffs in the country. It was chalked up. I confess I had to suppress elitist nonsense thoughts about chalk use and remind myself that they might have been climbing near their limit on a lifetime dream route.

Funny you should say that. When my boyfriend first started climbing he used to have a little chalk ball bay and would cover his shoes with it thinking that was the done thing. 

I went up Castle Ridge (M) a few weeks ago, and was similarly surprised to see a lot of chalked holds, but I dont think it will last long up there! Interestingly I did find myself reaching for an absent chalk bag (I'm too lazy to take extra kit on long walk ins) on this and a couple of classic rock routes i did that week in a purely instinctive way everytime I stepped off a ledge etc...

The thought of questing upwards at my limit on small slopey holds without chalk however makes me shudder. Good effort to Cobra_head for 7a+ chalkless. You are considerable stronger than me! (Not that that's really a compliment 😉)

Indeed. You don't see so many extreme leaders chasing their onsight limit dreams on warm summer days on Stanage slopers. I've seen quite a few VDiff lead falls in such conditions from low grade climbers trying very hard; begrudging such people chalk seems plain daft to me.

Yeah - I agree wholeheartedly!

I know the word "piss" can mean cheap pissy Australian lager but I was using the word to mean urine (i.e. the "conventional" meaning of the word "piss"!).

My hands rarely sweat but a small amount of chalk removes the grease that creates a finger print.

I'm sure that is main reason for using chalk for most of the time.

Which one was that Bob? Shame it was chalked up, it was rather unseasonally warm last Sat though.

Squareface. I actually didn't take my chalk bag though my partner did. I would definitely have used chalk if I had been soloing.

I bet George loves that you’ve put that in the public domain 😂

I have a mate who now rarely climbs but has never used chalk.. nicknamed "Ethical" Silcox in first ascents we did (including Chalk Boycott in Deep Dale).

I'll admit to doing it occasionally when I've stood on something wet and had to wipe my foot on the other leg.  More like rubbing the shoe with a slightly chalky hand to check it's completely dry.

A vastly over-used commodity, chalk. Clean, dry, supple skin provides more friction than chalked hands, as the chalk fills the small ridges in the skin that provide said friction. Likewise it prevents rubber doing its job properly - particularly if your shoes are damp the chalk sludge will do more harm than help.

The problem with hands is that, particularly in warmer weather, the skin rarely remains dry, hence the white stuff. But rather than raining dandruff on your belayer, all it needs is a light dusting, largely brushed off (otherwise you just have moist chalk, rather than pure moisture, ruining your grip). And on damp holds, it hurts rather than helps as you just create insta-lube.

In my opinion the extensive use of chalk in climbing is habitual and/or psychological as much as beneficial, as many people (in my limited experience) have so much on that any potential gains from moisture absorption are lost to the cake of powder preventing your skin contacting the rock. When the back of your hands start looking ghostly, you really have gone too far. But at least you're keeping Metolius in business.

The majority of climbers start using chalk because that's what they see more experienced climbers doing. The problem is that most don't use it as intended so gain no benefit. For a group that by-and-large seem to object to paying a couple of quid to park (yes that's tongue in cheek), we seem quite happy to spend good money on something that is probably doing our climbing more harm than good.

I say all this as a regular user of powder, albeit at the social rather than addict end of the spectrum, and predominantly based on an excellent article with pretty pictures and science and everything that I found on a slow night a couple of months ago that I now can't find a link to! Having that rest to chalk up before a tough move certainly helps psychologically, but in reality you might well have done yourself no favours.

I don't think I've ever come across an E1+ leader who doesn't carry chalk. Even if sometimes it's just psychological and habitual, there's certainly plenty routes I'd have never onsighted on the day I tried them had I not had chalk, and that's not because they were necessarily warm days.

...suggesting that a lot of the time it is actually beneficial.

And possibly solo.  I don't think an accumulation of chalk is a big issue on most UK mountain routes for obvious meteorological reasons.

I have, which is one of the reasons I'm pretty sure people THINK they need chalk more than they actually do.

People start climbing using chalk, they nearly have never climbed without it, so they don't know what they can do without it and so have no real comparison. They do it because, "that's what you do"

I occasionally recall with a smile the lad I watched a few years ago on a cool day on Brown Slabs at Shepherd’s, earnestly dipping his gloved hands into a cavernous chalk bag between moves…….. .

I don't want to be pinging of anything, hard or easy, what I'm saying is I'd rather not use chalk, I'm not suggesting everyone does the same, but it would make my climbing more enjoyable, because I wouldn't have the route mapped out for me like a climbing wall.

I've climbed Leaning Buttress Direct, Hargreaves' Original and TPS and many other friction climbs in hot and humid weather, I wipe my hands on my shorts or t-shirt, and that works for me.

Maybe you're wearing the wrong shorts?

I've never used chalk so, it's not a thing for me. I know what to expect and I'm happy to deal with that.

Unfortunately however, the consequences of people not cleaning the soles of their climbing shoes are visible on thousands of easy routes, both on mountains and outcrops. To my mind, this has a far greater environmental impact than chalk (which, as you rightly say, will tend to be washed away by the rain).

I live little more than a mile away from one of the most frequented crags in the UK (limestone). Every weekend dozens of people stand around belaying with their climbing shoes on. Then, without checking/cleaning their shoes, they begin climbing themselves. Naturally the easier routes (particularly grooves, where there's a tendencey to scrabble) are polished to a high sheen.

Mick

I take your point, although I mostly do it out of a sense of self-preservation! 

I'm not sure it's about strength, I've jumped 3-4 grades this year by having a different belayer, one who wants to lead everything, rather than top rope, especially if the rope is already there. It's made me a much better climber and improved my footwork and balance no end.

Like I said, I've never used chalk, and like someone who has always used chalk, I have nothing to compare it too. I've used it a few times, when I was constantly slipping off a hold on a project at our local wall, but it made no difference, what did was changing my body shape and the way I used the hold.

Most of the polished lower grade classics were mainly damaged by nailed boots. The main evidence of dirty shoes is on easier boulder problems, sport climbs, or the late developed low grade venues that became popular with groups.

You'd think!!! I have Reynaud syndrome so that bag was a godsend for me. I use it minimum 6 months of the year and it makes a huge difference by preventing my hands from numbing out constantly. 

Chalk is also about removing skin oils etc so isn't strictly sweat related. However I can confirm that numbed out hands also seem to sweat if your skin is damp and soft enough! Antihydral has made the world of difference for me and let me pull on holds that simply weren't possible without. 

Or, even worse, not actually understanding how to use it. I always thought it was self-explanatory, but then you come across things like this:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/bouldering/were_you_on_crescent_slab_this...

And realise that it evidently isn't as self-explanatory as one might think! Definitely chalk poured on the problem — it took about five minutes of brushing to return it to a climbable state. Each and every single hold covered in loose powder.

Would generally agree. But Milestone Buttress (for instance) has become really polished, over the last couple of decades and that's not nailed boots - which I've never seen used. The very odd times I've been back soloing on grit, after leaving The Peak, stuff has seemed very worn indeed (but haven't done enough to know whether this is widespread). In my experience, group (ab)use trashes a place faster than anything. What benefit there is in slithering around in dirty tennis shoes escapes me.

On Portland for instance, I discovered a tiny little alternative area some 12 years ago. Developed it with some mates. Easy routes, no polish. Word got out (fair enough). A Rockfax was published; naturally it was mentioned. It became ever more popular. Now it's trashed. If people had cleaned their shoes and used proper technique (come back down if you start scrabbling), it would probably still be fine.

The more we consume, the more is consumed - beyond repair.

Mick

How does that stack up with Stoney which was polished years ago ?

Softer limestone?

Milestone is where I've multi-pitch soloed the most and in my opinion the polish has not got significantly worse since I first climbed there in the late 1980s. On the left of the north face I've  climbed lower grade routes pre covid where I peeled a foot of turf off polished holds (as I've also done at Laddow). I do know limestone venues where polish has got much worse but that's simply not the case with Milestone.

If we respect the rock for the sake of future generations, cleaning shoes should be automatic. As should groups keeping beginner climbers off classic routes that are so much too hard for them that they end up constantly sketching with their feet. It's not just groups though... I've seen experienced well known climbers top-roping people horribly sketching on friction classics: Downhill Racer being the classic extreme route  I've seen most commonly abused in that way.

I'd add that I bouldered from the start of my climbing and the damage that I find most significant and disturbing is to the most popular of my local gritstone boulder problems, mainly down to brushing removing the hard surface layer and exposing the softer matrix. Brushing has been way more of an issue than chalk or even dirty shoes on these damaged problems.

Polish happens due to a combination of the surface doing the abrading, any abrading agents and the softness of the surface being abraded, along with the regularity of the occurrence. Good ninjas just don't significantly polish rock. One person with aggressive nailed boots with dirt acting as a further abrading agent and poor footwork almost certainly did way more damage than hundreds of climbers with good footwork and clean modern climbing shoes on places like Stanage. The people who polished Stoney VS classics the most probably had no sticky rubber, bad footwork and or dirty feet on a softer rock.

This^^

As a first post covid trip out we went to Wyndcliff Quarry all the easy routes we polished to fook, and most had people on them scrabbling, slipping and sliding up them on top rope.

The 6a+ was easier than the 5c because it had had much less traffic.

I find much of the 'sweaty hand problem' to be psychological. Our finger webs and palms sweat much more than our digits, so we find ourselves chalking up to deal with that feeling even though it's not affecting our grip.  I've found a great solution is to use liquid chalk at the start of a session, making sure it's covered the palms and finger webs.  That makes a huge difference to how sweaty my hands feel. I then use a chalk ball during the session to chalk my fingers and gripping surfaces of my palm as necessary. As chalkballs don't easily chalk the centre of your palms and fingerwebs easily, the combination works really well.

Can't help but think there's a small logical inconsistency between these two statements, but I'm struggling to pin it down. 

And who are these people who "has always used chalk" - I'd be surprised if there's any climber who has not climbed without it at some stage. 

What you say sounds logical, but (surprisingly) I don't think it's true. To take an example with which I am familiar: the Almscliff boulders. These had superb friction half a century ago, but (in my estimation) the friction now is barely half as good as it was. During the entire intervening period these boulders have only really been attempted by climbers in sticky climbing shoes, who have mostly cleaned these well before getting on the rock. So I think sticky boots actually wear the rock a bit more than one might imagine.

As I said....there will be little wear with good footwork and clean shoes. I've been to Almscliffe more times than I can remember and, although a minority, seen too much poor footwork and dirty shoes; plus some of the worst group behaviour I've ever seen on Low Man with kids in dirty trainers dragged flailing up routes. Almscliffe was also infamous more recently with dry stone wall walking muppets with bouldering mats...risking access.

My pet hate on Portland limestone is dirty shoe climbing. I am constantly seeing climbers walking around the crag in their climbing shoes.

A few I speak to don’t realise it damages the rock. Sticky rubber + mud and grit = sandpaper.

If we don’t start educating and getting instructors to instruct student on the importance of clean shoes then anything under 6b is gonna gradually become unclimbable. The softer the rock, the more urgent the situation. 
As Mick mentioned above, ‘newish’ routes on Portland are already becoming polished.

I encourage every climber I know to use a mat / carpet square. It does the job… and occasionally clean rubber helps punters like me get up harder stuff too.

This is something that us oldtimers might actually have been better at: getting our shoes absolutely clean before starting to climb. The climbing shoes were so poor before sticky rubber was invented that one certainly didn't want any muck on them at all.

I physically lick my shoes every time before I climb, disgusting I know. But it was something I was taught when I first started climbing to have clean shoes before setting off up every climb. And it’s a habit that has stuck with me. 

I have a chalk bag tied to the bottom of my stairs incase the bannister gets sweaty. I am beyond help.

I disagree. It is all too easy to sit on a climbers high horse about polish.

Polish exists because if climbers, not because of your vilified groups, top ropes, trainer users, those in none sterilised shoes. Sure, these things don't help but they are relatively rare occurrences across the life of a route. it is the repeated action of climbing the route that polishes.

Your view smacks of snobbery.

"it can't be me polishing that route, I am a real climber, I have climbed it a hundred times. It must be those filthy groups."

You can disagree all you like but as someone who has worked with tribologists the scientific position on how polish happens, which I presented above, is clear. If you place clean sticky rubber on a foothold and don't move it on the foothold there can be no polishing action. Good ninjas just don't polish holds. It's not snobbish as Mountain Training understand this and its part of their conservation message and many of my friends who take out groups are careful and educational on this. I also know plenty of lower grade climbers with impeccable footwork.

I won't put my letters after my name but I do understand tribology,please don't patronise.

In a sense you are correct that each bad(in your view) event has an increased effect. The sheer number of good events outweighs by orders of magnitude and is far more contributory to the end state.

You're contradicting yourself. A 'good event' is a clean foot that doesn't move on a clean hold. There is no polishing action: 1000 x 0 = 0

Evidence suggest something quite different.

Towards a bounding case, consider the polished 8s at Malham, hardly the territory of your lower class climbers. Most (self included) can't get of the ground in surgically cleaned shoes, let alone muddy trainers. 

What evidence? Firstly you know if your clean foot slips and if it doesn't there is no polishing. Secondly we've had critical reports here of people flailing on Malham hard classics that are clearly too tough for them. Go watch for an hour at horseshoe...or extrapolate from what you see indoors..

No-one expects perfection (in particular outdoor beginners have to start somewhere) but if everyone tried harder to keep clean feet, focus on better foot work (and keep off classic routes where their skill level prevents that) it would make a difference. In my 30+ years things have improved noticably: in general climber behaviour; BMC, and MT messaging;  improved group use; and by indoor walls taking the brunt of new climber understandable bad habits.

This is patently not true, the action of placing the rubber will have some polishing action, having worked with tribologists, I thought you might know this.

Maybe you need to think a bit more laterally, but let me explain, I used it, but it didn't help, so was pointless.

Why would I continue to use something I get no benefit from? Sounds a bit sheep-like to do that.

How sticky is you're spit?

Do you take anything to make it stickier?

Indeed. It’s not the fault of long dead men in nailed boots, unruly top ropers from the inner cities, or wall bred climbers that know no different. It’s all of us. Every single one of us has an effect, some of it worse than others. We all need to do our bit. The rock is a finite resource, we’ve been buggering about on it for 100 odd years, we’ve got another couple of hundred to go before it’s all worn out on the accessible parts of our densely packed isle. 
 

I’ve been places only discovered in the last 10 or 20 years ago, never seen a top rope or a tricouni, some of them are close to buggeration. It’s us. 

If your shoes never move against the rock, they will never wear out. Must save you a fortune

Although your points about dirty shoes and shoddy footwork are perfectly valid.

Have you considered licking the holds instead?

It's absolutely a negligible effect if a clean shoe doesn't move on clean rock. If the rubber is creeping or the foot is rotating weighted it's moving. Movement with an abrasive agent makes several orders of magnitude difference on polish effects. Good ninjas just don't polish rock to any significant extent (unless maybe if there are many millions of them). If you have scientific evidence otherwise educate me that the experts I spoke to (because I was inquisitive and interested) were wrong. Even with all the bad behaviour on show today at Stanage, arguably one of the busiest crags in the world (go look....most people there still do not clean their soles before they start every climb) it's holding up very well with almost no significant difference from when I started visiting in the late 80s. Cam and nut damage since then is much more noticable. Boulder problem damage way more noticable.

Somewhere out there is a shocking black and white film from the early days of mass climbing on Stanage. The damage from nailed boots is really serious and very obvious. I knew about the damage before I saw the film:  from talking to old men in the early 90s who cared about 'leave no trace' and corrected me when I ignorantly blamed low grade modern (for then) climbers for the polish. They were also very critical of excessive 'cleaning' of some of the more valuable natural vegetation from natural crags in some FA's, plus all the cigarette stubbs left on and around routes.

Climbers are in my view much better educated and more interested in conservation these days compared to the late 80s.

My main shoes in which I've done the vast majority of my climbing in the last few yeas are over a decade old (resoled twice) and most of the lost rubber is indoors on comp problems at or beyond my limit. My footwork would be a lot better if I wasn't cursed with bunions from foolish over-tight footwear choices in my early days of climbing. 

Are you sure? your second sentence is exactly what a shoe does when you put some weight on it.

To polish something, e.g. a metal item, you start with large abrasive particles and gradually decrease their size down to power, you then add a lubricant of some sort to the final polishing, you eventually achieve a mirror finish.

I worked as a metallurgist for six years after and studied material science in university.

What you are actually doing when polishing something is rubbing away any surface roughness, to ever deceasing levels.

What does the clean hand gang think about the use of crack gloves? 

Trigger's Broom? 🧹🧗‍♂️🙄

youtube.com/watch?v=LAh8HryVaeY&

Perfectly acceptable - they're fantastic!! Shoes for your hands, & no more bleeding (well, less bleeding). Essential for me in relation to work (scrubbing up in operating theatres with cut hands is not good in several ways). I 'invented' my own many years ago by cutting the palms out of string - backed cycling gloves...... they weren't very good, & I'm happy someone improved the design.

I've also studied materials science and metallurgy at Uni, have a materials PhD and worked alongside material scientists in industrial research establishments and universities for decades, but such scientific willy waving is pointless as I'm not an expert in the specifics. I did smile at the CBeebies explanation of polishing, so thanks for that.

Being interested as a climber I've tried to set-up join projects, on surface damage and shoe and skin friction, with science academics of various types, in surface physics, physical chemistry, geology and sport, sadly with no luck, but the experts' view I got on surface damage from talking to them, in trying to do that, told a consistent story.  For climbing rubber damage on a partially worn hard rock surface you will need movement under pressure across the surface and an abrasion agent. Yes, perpendicular pressure from a clean elastic material like rubber could damage especially weak surface structures on early contacts (removing loosely bound surface scrittle say), but it won't do significant damage to hard surfaces that have seen traffic. The view I came away with is good ninjas won''t damage clean solid holds on classics.

As I said before, lets see some actual counter-evidence for your views on climber damage to rock surfaces before I abandon the opinions I've come to from speaking to materials, geology and tribology surface experts, as a climber and materials scientist. It's certainly a subject long overdue some proper targeted research, given conservation needs.

I don't think many would disagree with this. And the clear culprit for erosion of low-level footholds on grit and sandstone is dirty shoes (and for higher-level holds on boulder problems, over-brushing). Likewise, beginners being dragged up classics in trainers are not going to do the rock any favours. I am all for educating newcomers (and reminding old-timers) about these issues.

But very few of us are ninjas, particularly at our limit. So at the higher grades, I suspect much of the wear and polish comes from the sheer numbers of us regular punters (as distinct from ninjas) who climb these routes, despite the fact that we squeak our boots before starting. And even ninjas will torque or 'key' their shoes onto crucial holds to engage maximum contact pressure and hence friction.

There was a discussion in these forums many years ago about the effect of temperature on rubber friction against rock and I think I recall Richard Jones (who is genuinely an expert in this field) explaining that even the 'static' grip of rubber on rock involves relative movement (creep?) at a microscopic level. Whether such movement could have any polishing effect, I don't know, but I think it illustrates that friction can be a surprisingly slippery concept...

Mostly with a fag hanging from the bottom lip. Those people used a different psychological crutch, today’s health conscious climber uses chalk. 
And they were done by a brilliant talented few with nerves of steel!

Andy

"I don't think many would disagree with this."

Several posters above are arguing just that. That it's volume with clean shoes and good footwork as much as anything. I used to think that when I started climbing, as the polish was obvious on most routes I tried but I now don't think it's the case at all.

Yes as we push limits good footwork becomes harder but most lead climbers will have a bit in hand so movement should be much more of a problem on sport and boulders. Clean rubber creep would still need a mechanism to break the surface to help form self abrasion. I'm pretty sure Richard was talking about marginal friction: say slab moves where forces were not perpendicular.

I agree that a lot of that view is legend. Chalk was first used by John Gill before E5 was climbed in the UK and E grades were invented. There were not masses of E5, let alone E6, ascents before chalk use became common. Just top talents at the top of their game.

Then you should know better.

You're welcome, though I'm still not sure you understood.

Is that because they don't go rock climbing?

It's because they do go rock climbing but don't seem to have done.

(It was a 'Grimerism' that I took to).

I prefer to stick to what I see and what experts said and what people who volunteer for access and conservation believe. If I'm wrong in some respects, counter-evidence would be a lot more useful to all of us than snipes.

Wondered why my ears were burning so I’ll weigh in with a comment on this.

I believe *in principle* that any time you are relying on friction between your shoes and the rock (i.e. pretty much any time you’re not actually sat down on a ledge) you could be polishing the rock, though *in practise* I probably agree with the consensus that it’s bad footwork and dirty shoes that produce the biggest material effect.

If you are relying on friction, the rubber is exerting a lateral force on the rock. But to have a polishing effect, there has to be movement, so some of the work done by the rubber on the rock can be converted into the energy required to break off an asperity (most of the work done being converted into heat through energy dissipation in the rubber). I think there is some reason to think that there will always be a slow creeping motion of rubber against rock when you weight your foot on a hold; for the reasons gone into in that ancient thread I don’t think rubber ever has a true static friction.  But whether this contributes materially to observed wear in practise I’m not sure. (My guess is probably not on gritstone, maybe on limestone that’s smoother to start with).

Ok, I can't climb at any much grade, I'm more a scrambler who strayed into much harder territory rather than being an elite rock monkey, so definitely not someone to emulate. But FWIW I have *never* not even once used chalk outdoors. Greatest respect to Bilbo. (That doesn't mean I'm against others using chalk on super hard micro crimp routes, just not on mountain Mods, S, HVS etc please)

I personally knew the original Clean Hand Gang in Bristol decades ago and hung out with them for ages 

They all gave up the ethic (not using chalk) decades ago (I'll be happy to be corrected if any actual surviving members would like to disagree) except, reputedly, for one. Whose initials are P.L.

I think Pat now uses chalk but Steve Findlay said he still didn't when I chatted to him a few years ago